Webteam is trying...here's proof

[Dickey]

I had correspondance with the Webteam in the last couple of days regarding some of the "issues" and just wanted to let everyone else know the reply.......

______________________________ ___

This is the reply to my first email to them:


Hi,
Thanks so much for bringing this to our attention. All offensive posts have been removed and the user has been banned (again).

And thank you for your patience! We actually have just set up for several staff members to be able to moderate from home in the evenings. We are also considering giving moderator status to trusted, longtime members of the forum.We are also looking at ways to improve the way our registration works so that we can prevent this from happening in the future.

We welcome suggestions and thank you for your continuted support!

Sarah
Webteam

And again....the reply to the second one
______________________________ _____________________________

Hello,


Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We appreciate it when our
members notify us of innappropirate threads so that we can take action. All
of these derogatory threads have been removed and the user has been banned.

All of us at Firehouse.com deeply regret this incident. There is no reason
that such vile, disgusting material should ever be on our sites, or any
site. We are just as upset about this as you and we appreciate and
acknowledge your faith and trust that we would remove this immediately. We
thank those of you have brought it to our attention and are looking into all
options available to us to try and prevent a similar such problem from
happening again.

We are, as most of you know, in a large process of change. Change not just
among our team, but in our infrastructure as well. With this change, we look
forward to being able to support the features that have led us to being a
premier public safety site as well as launch new endeavors. Growing pains in
any part of life are tough and require adjustment and patience. We know you
have been patient enough, but we ask that you would continue to bear with us as we adjust to our situation.

Hopefully you are encouraged by our reply, although we deeply regret the
instance that has provoked it. Please know that we are continually working
to support you and provide you with the best information on behalf of the
fire and EMS service, as well as working to make our delivery of this to you
as highly efficient as possible.

Again, we apologize for this problem, and are working to prevent it from happening again.


The Webteam of Firehouse.com
______________________________ _________________

They are making and effort and so far I am confident they will come up with something new soon.

[mcaldwell]

I hope so. He's back with an almost legitimate sounding name this time.

[NJTF1Bowman]

Webteam is on the ball tonight, Thanks!

But the night is young :eek:

[DocVBFDE14]

"Do or do not. There is no try."

[RspctFrmCalgary]

He's back again. :mad:

FireChiefShfd34

Post reported and request to the webteam to cease new users for a few days, as already suggested by others.

[Tann3100]

Glad someone is getting a response from the WT cause I still have yet to get one.

[RspctFrmCalgary]

I just sent a PM as well.

[ntmd8r38]

We are also considering giving moderator status to trusted, longtime members of the forum.We are also looking at ways to improve the way our registration works so that we can prevent this from happening in the future.

That's the best idea they ever had, wonder how they came up with that? :rolleyes:

[NJTF1Bowman]

It's going to be a long night :eek:

[fire0099881]

they did a good job of getting rid of those posts this time around tonight

[ElectricHoser]

Indeed... WT shows signs of life.

My subscription has at long last been activated.

It should not have taken so long....... but yes, they are trying.

Thanks WT.

[Chief2701]

He's back again. :mad:

FireChiefShfd34

Post reported and request to the webteam to cease new users for a few days, as already suggested by others.

I'm most curious why he claims to be the Chief of the SHFD? That would be me....Some of you may remember a tread last September titled "Disgrace" it envolved my department. The forums in our local newspaper was shut down for over a month because of a troll who was posting porn, and libelous attacks on myself and the SHFD as well as others. As soon as they came back up he was back everynight with a new screen name.Eventually the moderators permantely eliminated him or so it seems, he hasn't made an appearance in over 3 weeks. If the web team would like to contact me I can put them in touch with the Times moderator who has a long list of banned IP addresses. Myself and the members of the SHFD have always suspected that this individual is a former disgruntled SHFD firefighter.

[Firetacoma1]

I'm most curious why he claims to be the Chief of the SHFD? That would be me....Some of you may remember a tread last September titled "Disgrace" it envolved my department. The forums in our local newspaper was shut down for over a month because of a troll who was posting porn, and libelous attacks on myself and the SHFD as well as others. As soon as they came back up he was back everynight with a new screen name.Eventually the moderators permantely eliminated him or so it seems, he hasn't made an appearance in over 3 weeks. If the web team would like to contact me I can put them in touch with the Times moderator who has a long list of banned IP addresses. Myself and the members of the SHFD have always suspected that this individual is a former disgruntled SHFD firefighter.

Could be a coincidence... there are a lot of SHFDs out there...

[hwoods]

I Have, as everyone knows, been rather critical of the direction that these Forums were taking recently. As many of you saw, (In another thread) I engaged The Management (WT?) in conversation, in order to try to find out just what the problems were, and to see what we could do to help. It seems that some things are starting to turn around, and I would only ask that everyone please be patient a little longer, and give the WT room to work. Thank You, Stay Safe out there. Harve

[FyredUp]

I appreciate the webteam doing their best to get rid of these individuals who seem to wish nothing but ruin on the forums.

I have to say though I am 100% against member moderators. I believe it is the job of the owners and those tasked with running the web site to be the guardians of it. I have found the majority of the forums I belong to that have member moderators do not run smoothly or fairly. Friends of the moderators seem to always get far more lenient treatment than those that are just members of the forum. Essentially cliques form and dominate the forums with the support and power of the member moderators. Could it be different here? Perhaps...but I doubt it. Sorry if that offends anyone, it is just my humble opinion.

FyredUp

[Dickey]

I see your point FyredUp and never thought of that. Whoever they would be could say they would be professional but I could see that open another can of worms too.

Maybe reporting on fairness by other members to the WT would take that power away from member moderators? I think if this happens where members could be moderators, I'm sure there will be some sort of application process and hopefully a background check. Can't be anon anymore if that's what you want to do. I think it will be a learning process, again, IF that happens. I would like to think that we are professionals and at least can handle a little monitoring from time to time.

Chief2701...........I would give the WT the name of your suspect to check out and see if they want to pursue a harassment complaint with their local law enforcement......

I agree with Harve too.........we must be patient. They are learning as they go too. We just have to keep reporting it when we see it and eventually it will be handled.

[CaptainGonzo]

As a moderator on two forums, I feel that I am pretty fair when it comes to deleting offensive posts.

One can agree to disagree, and I will allow them to post their opinions, as long as it it civil.

And to answer the question that I know will come up...
Yes, I have had to use the Monty Python approved "Bailiff, whack his peepee" moderator power a few times. I follow the adage of "praise in public, scold in private". I send a PM or email to the member if I feel that it has gone too far.

In my 5 years+ as a moderator, I have only had to outright ban a person once.

[MalahatTwo7]

Patience is a virtue. And we must all try to be "virtuous" at least for a little longer. I also received a msg from the WT the other day - first one EVER. :) So hopefully things are moving in a good direction.

To the WT: Keep up the good work!

[DeputyMarshal]

As a moderator on two forums, I feel that I am pretty fair when it comes to deleting offensive posts.

One of the safest systems for volunteer moderators I've used is to limit moderators to moving questionable posts to a hidden holding area rather than deleting them. Deletion is forever but posts moved to a holding area can be restored by the Admin if s/he feels that the moderator has overreacted.

Also, providing a "Moderators Only" sub-forum allows mods to discuss problem users among themselves to decide when it's time to step in.

I follow the adage of "praise in public, scold in private". I send a PM or email to the member if I feel that it has gone too far.

A very good rule for moderators. Sometimes it's prudent to post general reminders but individual users should never be singled out in the public forum.

In my 5 years+ as a moderator, I have only had to outright ban a person once.

Try moderating a gaming forum with a high percentage of pre-adolescent kids... It happens a bit more often there. ;)

[FyredUp]

I am going to preface my comments with a small disclaimer:

"YES, I have been suspended here and on other websites for my less than polite responses to others. YES, I had it coming. NO, I am not without blame and I am not claiming to be a victim in every case."

My latest adventure with being suspended started in another website involving woodworking. I asked a completely serious question and was piled on by some of the "Brilliant" people of the clique there. When I responded to them in kind they sent a moderator buddy of theirs after me and HE fired a shot at me and I responded. The next thing I know I am getting pm's from a second moderator telling me to "WATCH MY STEP" and that I better apologize. Well, being perhaps a little stubborn I said no, I just responded in to him the same way he posted to me. Well. needless to say I got suspended and as I watched the entire thing unfold online even after I was gone the clique kept piling on and the mods did nothing for a couple of days then they finaly closed my topic.

Sorry, there is a major difference between being a member moderator and a founder or co-founder of a site and moderating there. I still believe member moderation would be a serious mistake. I think a better answer is a posting of the rules right here on the forum as a reminder of the rules. Operators of this forum should be on the site as much a humanly possible and swift punishment to those who post the kind of crap that we are talking about.

Look, it's simple really. If the mods haven't taken care of a problem poster yet just don't read the garbage they post. Eventually they will get banned.

I feel every bit as strong about my opinion on this as some do about leather helmets, smooth bore nozzles and lime green fire trucks.

FyredUp

[the1141man]

Try moderating a gaming forum with a high percentage of pre-adolescent kids... It happens a bit more often there. ;)

*LOL* Try moderating a site w/ just as many forums as FH.com (and probably easily 4x as many active members and 10x the posting activity--the Point/Counterpoint forum on mil.com has as much activity in one day as this entire site!) filled with unruly dogfaces, leathernecks, zoomies, squids, and academy/ROTC cadets, JROTC kids, and of course wannabes or potential recruits with questions, and the not-so-occasional posers, PX Rangers, and trolls... ;)
Due to a few recurring "sores", at one point I was hitting the ban button on just one guy at least twice a night... at least he was semi-humorous and seemed to think he was playing "cat and mouse" with the Mods. :rolleyes:
Eventually, the cats got the mouse in an arm-bar and had him tapping right quick. :D

Personally, I'd feel sorry for anyone taking a mod position here...it would be like volunteering to head the cleanup and recovery operation in the wake of Katrina. :o

[Steamer]

One of the things that all of us can do to minimize re-emergance of this jamoke's BS is to simply ignore him. He's not only watching the number of replies, but also the "view numbers", having said precisely that in one of his posts.

The webteam has said they're working on it, so we need to give them some time. In the interim, just ignore this latest "mosquito", and let the WT do their stuff.

[MalahatTwo7]

just ignore this latest "mosquito", and let the WT do their stuff.

Ok. Someone get me a REALLY BIG can of Raid! :D:D

[redneckemt]

I wanna know would it be possible to lock down and make a thread visible to only the webteam, so they can decide what needs to be done with it, IF THE THREAD GETS X (INSERT RANDOM NUMBER HERE) OF REPORTS IN AN HOUR?


Edited to add the Bold to get the point across better, and because I think that is a run on sentence.

[Tann3100]

I wanna know would it be possible to lock down and make a thread visible to only the webteam, so they can decide what needs to be done with it, if the thread gets X (insert random number here) of reports in an hour?

Yes they can. They can create a forum that only admins= webteam or admins= mods can see.

[RFRDxplorer]

[/b]

Ok. Someone get me a REALLY BIG can of Raid! :D:D

Not the best rendition, don't have photoshop here at school...............

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j314/jhoffman358/ist2_1201085_white_grain_silos .jpg

[MalahatTwo7]

Hat's off and a nod, for effort! :D:D

[Chief2701]

Could be a coincidence... there are a lot of SHFDs out there...


No it's him just got two PM's how do I contact the Web Team?

[DeputyMarshal]

No it's him just got two PM's how do I contact the Web Team?

Just send a PM (http://forums.firehouse.com/private.php) addressed to "Webteam"

[Chief2701]

Thanks found it, his nick he emailed me under is "firefightingman"

[firenresq77]

I think a better answer is a posting of the rules right here on the forum as a reminder of the rules.

I don't think that will solve a thing. People have to agree to the rules in order to register. Doesn't mean they will read them. Same thing if you post them in here. They can be posted in each thread, but it doesn't mean people will read them. Especially if they see that it's the "rules"

[Firetacoma1]

No it's him just got two PM's how do I contact the Web Team?

So he decided local trouble wasn't fun enough eh?

PM the webteam and hopefully they can block his IP.

[Chief2701]

I have put our local newspaper moderator in touch with the web team...

[FyredUp]

I don't think that will solve a thing. People have to agree to the rules in order to register. Doesn't mean they will read them. Same thing if you post them in here. They can be posted in each thread, but it doesn't mean people will read them. Especially if they see that it's the "rules"

What it does solve is people's ability to claim ignorance of the rules. Of course people will either choose to obey the rules or not.

FyredUp

[firenresq77]

What it does solve is people's ability to claim ignorance of the rules. Of course people will either choose to obey the rules or not.

FyredUp

They cqan't claim ignorance if they had to agree to them to register......... Whether or not they read them is a different story.

My point being that whether the rules are where they currently are or if they are posted in the forums, people will only read them and follow them if they choose to...........

[FyredUp]

firenresq77...

Well then...since I really don't want to debate this all night with you and you seem unwilling to see my point I guess I will move on to another topic.

Have a nice evening.

FyredUp

[RFRDxplorer]

firenresq77...

Well then...since I really don't want to debate this all night with you and you seem unwilling to see my point I guess I will move on to another topic.

Have a nice evening.

FyredUp


You both are on the same team. 77 is just saying that when the person signed up he agrred to the terms of use, etc. So therefore, they cannot claim that they were not made aware of them. And that people will do what they want to, regardless of how many times they are shown the terms of use.

[FyredUp]

I would like a show of hands...How many actually really completely read the rules when they signed up? Not just said you did in order to get on here, but actually read them? I know I didn't.

FyredUp

[RspctFrmCalgary]

Nope, not me.

[Steamer]

I understand what you're saying, FyredUp, but what part and how much of one's brain would have to be damaged to allow them to have even a scintilla of belief that pictures like those posted might be allowed?

There are some people like the most recent example, that isn't going to care one iota what the TOS says, either read or not. They're going to charge right ahead, and let fall what may. That's why most sites reserve the right to just boot yer arse, if you violate their TOS. It's your (the person signing up) responsibility to read and comply with the TOS, and ignorance is no excuse for any violations, especially when it's so obvious to simply inflame an entire group of people, as the most recent trash clearly was.

It's kinda like locks on doors, I guess. They'll only keep the honest thieves out. ;)

[FyredUp]

Steamer: I understand what you're saying, FyredUp, but what part and how much of one's brain would have to be damaged to allow them to have even a scintilla of belief that pictures like those posted might be allowed? Well, since I never saw the pictures so I will have to defer to your judgement in that. I understand that the world is filled with assbags who delight in being as big a jag off as possible.


There are some people like the most recent example, that isn't going to care one iota what the TOS says, either read or not. They're going to charge right ahead, and let fall what may. That's why most sites reserve the right to just boot yer arse, if you violate their TOS. It's your (the person signing up) responsibility to read and comply with the TOS, and ignorance is no excuse for any violations, especially when it's so obvious to simply inflame an entire group of people, as the most recent trash clearly was. My only reason for saying to post the rules is then there is absolutely no doubt as to what behavior gets you immediately booted. Will they read the rules? Probably not. I am completely in favor of booting people who come onto a forum and then proceed to do nothing but disrupt. Obviously this latest individual is a troll with no redeeming qualities.

It's kinda like locks on doors, I guess. They'll only keep the honest thieves out.

We agree on most of this.

FyredUp

[nmfire]

Posting and restating the rules won't do jack. The people that cause problems don't care about the rules! Your unhappy experience with the moderators of one specific forum should not reflect on that of every other forum on the internet.

[FyredUp]

nmfire: Posting and restating the rules won't do jack. The people that cause problems don't care about the rules! Your unhappy experience with the moderators of one specific forum should not reflect on that of every other forum on the internet.

Breath, nm, breath. Why so hostile?

As far as my bad experience on another forum it is completely relevant. As much as some people here want to believe because we are firefighters we are ALL a superior breed and not subject to the failings of the rest of society at times, we are not, and the same egomaniacal nonsense of power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately will affect SOME here who become moderators. Add to that thet every one has their own standards for what is and what isn't acceptable and friendships and cliques and bingo a recipe for disaster. Let those who own this site police it and dispense punishment as they see fit after all they are paid to run this.

FyredUp

[nmfire]

Sorry, but I disagree. I know of many many forums with members that are moderators and it is run perfectly. You seem to think it isn't possible so we shouldn't try it.

[hwoods]

My troops frequently hear my favorite phrase, usually at a Training event. "You'll never know unless you try it". I also think that it applies here. :)

[FyredUp]

Okay then. I want to be a moderator. I will dispense justice fairly because I won't be influenced by what anyone here thinks of me and friendships and cliques will not diminish my ability to clearly enforce the rules. I also know that I have roughly the same chance of becoming a moderator as snowballs in hell but I thought I would put my application in anyways.

I can't wait to see who will become moderators...although I can probably guess.

FyredUp

[jasper45]

Okay then. I want to be a moderator.


Brother, you have my vote.

[FyredUp]

Brother, you have my vote.

I knew I could count on my Brother from across the border.

Long time no hear from you is everything okay in the big city?

FyredUp

[RFRDxplorer]

Right off the top of my head I can come up with a list of members who would make good moderators and would not let personal conflicts, etc. get in their way. These moderators wouldnt be freelancing either, they would be able to have their moderator capabilities taken away by the webteam. So they would have oversight.

Like Harve said..... "You'll never know unless you try."

[emt161]

He's back...

[1835Wayne]

I know who he is. I was on the membership committee when we fired him.

He is a freelancing, self absorbed, danger to himself and other firefighters. Not to mention selfish. I remeber the time we were all washing the engine after a fire and he stood around and did JACK.

Good job WebTeam!!!!!

[AlexYates]

Wow!!!! Now I know why you all did what you did today.... I did not know!!! well I have talked to one of the rocky mount fire cap. tonight and they said if they hear about me putting there name in something up here agan, then I will not have a job with them ever....

FROM THE ROCKY MOUNT FIRE DEPT.:
WE ARE SORRY THAT ALEX WENT OFF ON FIREHOUSE.COM, WE HAVE TALKED TO ALEX AND WE WILL BE WATCHING HIM A LITTLE MORE B/C OF THIS.... THANK YOU FOR SENDING THIS TO US AND TO NASH COUNTY....
WE WILL BE TAKING CARE OF ALL THIS!

Oh and yes I am just a Fire Buff....
sorry!!!

[dday05]

If you're SORRY then WHY do you keep typing stuff to drag this on and on? You'll regret all of this one of these days. Stop acting like a know it all 15 year old and learn something. If you read and actually absorbed anything that all of us wrote to you we would'nt be here right now then would we? Lets see this is the second apology lets see if you can keep your word this time.Good luck and take care.

[fire0099881]

Wow!!!! Now I know why you all did what you did today.... I did not know!!! well I have talked to one of the rocky mount fire cap. tonight and they said if they hear about me putting there name in something up here agan, then I will not have a job with them ever....

FROM THE ROCKY MOUNT FIRE DEPT.:
WE ARE SORRY THAT ALEX WHENT OFF ON FIREHOUSE.COM, WE HAVE TALKED TO ALEX AND WE WILL BE WHACHING HIM A LITTLE MORE B/C OF THIS.... THANK YOU FOR SENDING THIS TO US AND TO NASH COUNTY....
WE WILL BE TAKEING CARE OF ALL THIS!!!

Oh and yes I am just a Fire Buff....
sorry!!!

might be believeable if the quote from the f.d. was typed without misspelled words, and no we still do not believe you are a fire buff

[bcarey]

"might be believeable if the quote from the f.d. was typed without misspelled words"

You would be suprised to see some of the business emails from chiefs with similar grammar.

I watched this thread and it is a very good example to FH of how users moderate themselves.

Now, the followup posts...

[fire0099881]

"might be believeable if the quote from the f.d. was typed without misspelled words"

You would be suprised to see some of the business emails from chiefs with similar grammar.

I watched this thread and it is a very good example to FH of how users moderate themselves.

Now, the followup posts...

if you would go look at some of his other posts, it's the exact same spelling so he didn't take a quote from the f.d. and after someone questioned him about he went back and re edited all of these post's he put on. that's why I said that.

[HotTrotter]

I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. From what I gather this Alex fellow posted some stuff that some people objected to. I've read the Terms of Service several times and don't see anything about posting objectionable material or opinions.

So here are my questions

1. How do I know what is objectionable and what is not?

2. Who determines what is objectionable?

3. If something is considered objectionable are others asked if it is not objectionable? Is this a voting process?

4. The Wright Brothers, Einstein, Thomas Edison, Ben Franklin and a hosts of others held thoughts and beliefs that were contrary to the contemporary thinking of the times. If someone posts something that is contrary to the “conventional “ way of thinking, is that grounds for removal?

5. What I am really curious to know is are these forums truly an area for the free expression of ideas and opinions or are they for some reason being censored to only provide the conventional thought processes?

[captstanm1]

I would also love to participate as a moderator.

[MEck51]

Axel yates and Einstein, theres a comparision I never thought I' see.

[1835Wayne]

Please.

Stop.

Beating.

The

Dead.

Horse.

[firefighter2454]

I thought this Alex thing was over leave it alone. leave it alone. leave it alone
As to having moderators I believe that is a great Idea. They work well and the thier discrestion is still scrutinized by the web team when the situation deems. I think their is some well voiced people in hear who listen fairly to all. Obviously I am not one of them because I usually just read everyday rather than post, but I believe that this system is a good Idea. Also I vote yes for Fyred. As well as a couple of others.

[Dickey]

I firmly believe that member moderators would work just fine. I think the combination of several members would almost provide 24/7 coverage as well.

[FlyingKiwi]

Your problem is that personal interests and commercial interests are two totaly devoid subjects.

Members as moderators work only where the collective belief in what you are trying to achieve is understood implicitly by those doing the work.

Ergo, To provide this means of control requires the owners of the website to decide what thay actually want from the forums.

Or, in modern bs / txt speak.

Yo gets wat ya pays for an we wan ta say our minds no matta if in we cun speak it or knot wifout any punctation or not or sos any uva bugga cun red it no matta how long we tipe four.

For the knobbers, the first part WAS in English, your language.

[HotTrotter]

While I do refer to Alex the discussion isn't about him or comparing him to anyone. The point here is, what is acceptable and what isn't.

But what I find even more interesting is the willingness of so many here to give up their first amendment right in favor of moderators (aka censors). Our fore fathers fought for our freedom against a king who tried to stop the free expression of ideas and thoughts. I find the whole concept of moderators and banning people for speaking their mind rather Un-American. (As a side note I don’t really know what this Alex fellow said that was so offensive)

What is even stranger is that a publishing company (Cygnus) would even consider allowing censorship of any kind. And really, who decides what is right and what is real? I took the time to lookup forum

WordNet - Cite This Source
forum

noun
1. a public meeting or assembly for open discussion
2. a public facility to meet for open discussion

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University

If you provide moderators who censor people then you have eliminated the open discussion and hence, no longer have a forum.

I have read the TOS several times, they don’t seem to define what is right and what isn’t. Again, the bottom line here is, What is acceptable and what isn’t?

[HolleyFF241]

I would also love to become a Mod on here... I have actually been here a long time since this is my second user name and I have moderating experience to boot. It sounds like an excellent idea if set up properly! :)

[HotTrotter]

I see this has faded a bit. My original question has never been answered. I can’t seem to find the answer anywhere. Yes I did read the TOS.

Question. What is acceptable and what is not? Just because several people complain about a person's post does that necessarily mean it is wrong or objectionable to all?

Please someone give me the right answer.

FYI, I have been in other forums on the Internet where they have the ignore button. I never use it because ignore is the first part of ignorance. I can choose to disagree, but I owe it to myself to listen to your point of view.

[DeputyMarshal]

The point here is, what is acceptable and what isn't.

Agreed. Alex acted like a schmuck. But he didn't really do anything that rose to the level of banning. IMHO, ignoring him was a better response.

But what I find even more interesting is the willingness of so many here to give up their first amendment right in favor of moderators (aka censors).

You can't give up something that you never had. This is a private forum provided by FH.com at their whim. The 1st Amendment doesn't apply here and it never has.

What is even stranger is that a publishing company (Cygnus) would even consider allowing censorship of any kind.

Why? They obviously control the content of their print media, why would you expect them to do any differently with their web media?

If you provide moderators who censor people then you have eliminated the open discussion and hence, no longer have a forum.

A good moderator staff helps keep a forum on track and on topic. Don't confuse "free speech" with anarchy.

Again, the bottom line here is, What is acceptable and what isn’t?

When you post here on the forum, you're a guest in someone else's house or, maybe a better comparison here, in the day room / lounge at someone else's firehouse. Apply the rules of courtesy you'd normally use as a guest anywhere else and you'll be on the right track.

[lvwrench]

Remember the Golden Rule."Always do unto others before they do unto you and make sure that you post before someone else gets a chance". That can't be right. Of well, nobody's perfect.

[CaptainGonzo]

While I do refer to Alex the discussion isn't about him or comparing him to anyone. The point here is, what is acceptable and what isn't.

But what I find even more interesting is the willingness of so many here to give up their first amendment right in favor of moderators (aka censors). Our fore fathers fought for our freedom against a king who tried to stop the free expression of ideas and thoughts. I find the whole concept of moderators and banning people for speaking their mind rather Un-American. (As a side note I don’t really know what this Alex fellow said that was so offensive)

What is even stranger is that a publishing company (Cygnus) would even consider allowing censorship of any kind. And really, who decides what is right and what is real? I took the time to lookup forum

WordNet - Cite This Source
forum

noun
1. a public meeting or assembly for open discussion
2. a public facility to meet for open discussion

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University

If you provide moderators who censor people then you have eliminated the open discussion and hence, no longer have a forum.

I have read the TOS several times, they don’t seem to define what is right and what isn’t. Again, the bottom line here is, What is acceptable and what isn’t?


While this is an "open forum" and there are the First Amendment rights.. the website is privately owned by Cygnus/

You should have been here a few weeks ago.. a racist was posting his drivel and crap all over the forums, even figured out how to work the forum code to bring anyone who checked another thread to his offensive spew. It took contact with by a member with connections to get the posts tossed and the person banned.

There have been thiose attempting to use the forum to advertise their wares... everything from electronics to viagra. If they want to advertise, let them buy space on FH.com.. it is a business, not a charity.

Just about every forum in existence has a moderator.. don't kid yourself. Some moderators just are more visible than others.

I moderate on two fire forums.. I have only had to use the moderator powers twice in the 5 years I have had moderator priviledges.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Soooo.........

A member who has been on the boards for about as long as it takes to cook a hamburger starts a ruckus about censorship by the WT?

Yeah. OK. Take a friggin' hike, pal.

[res54cuecaptain]

as said before:

When you signed up for this forum, you voluntarily gave up the right to certain kinds of speech in return for the ability to use the boards. If you do not feel that you can follow the rules here, you have the right to create your own message boards and make your own rules there. cygnus is a private business, and if you'd actually read the Bill of Rights, you'll see that "Freedom of Speech" applies to the government, not here.

[HotTrotter]

While this is an "open forum" and there are the First Amendment rights.. the website is privately owned by Cygnus/


I will admit, I am not a legal professional. However, while the website is privately owned, it is a public place, much like the local mall. I have seen incidents in the past where malls have attempted to through people out for wearing t-shirts they didn't like. It ended up costing the mall a lot of money. I believe the same sort of rules would apply here.

Clearly, racism, sexual harassment, personal attacks, divulging someone else’s personal information, and advertising would be unacceptable. But if one were to make statements or offered opinions contrary to the politically correct beliefs, that in turn caused many to cry to the web team would this necessarily be a reason to ban or remove such post. Anyone in here should be able to post his or her opinions without fear of reprisal.

Is there some code of conduct or a place that defines what is acceptable and what is not?

I really must look into this Alex thing a bit more. I need to find out what he did that was so offensive. Although, it isn’t a real high priority on my list, just a curiosity thing.

Higher priority **** How does one insert those neat little smiley faces that allow one to add a little emotion to the written word?

[HotTrotter]

Just now saw this as the first thing on the firefighters forum page.

http://forums.firehouse.com/announcement.php?f=286

I amaze me sometimes :)

[Firetacoma1]

I will admit, I am not a legal professional. However, while the website is privately owned, it is a public place, much like the local mall. I have seen incidents in the past where malls have attempted to through people out for wearing t-shirts they didn't like. It ended up costing the mall a lot of money. I believe the same sort of rules would apply here.

Clearly, racism, sexual harassment, personal attacks, divulging someone else’s personal information, and advertising would be unacceptable. But if one were to make statements or offered opinions contrary to the politically correct beliefs, that in turn caused many to cry to the web team would this necessarily be a reason to ban or remove such post. Anyone in here should be able to post his or her opinions without fear of reprisal.

Is there some code of conduct or a place that defines what is acceptable and what is not?

I really must look into this Alex thing a bit more. I need to find out what he did that was so offensive. Although, it isn’t a real high priority on my list, just a curiosity thing.

Higher priority **** How does one insert those neat little smiley faces that allow one to add a little emotion to the written word?

Ever seen the sign "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? Same thing applies here. When they sign up they agree to abide by the Terms of Service. If they violate that, they will be banned. I don't think Alex/Mike necessarily violated the TOS, but I also don't believe he/she/they were banned. I could be wrong. If you go to any public place and start into obnoxious behavior, you may be ridiculed until you give up and leave, which seems to be what happened here.

[HotTrotter]

as said before:

When you signed up for this forum, you voluntarily gave up the right to certain kinds of speech in return for the ability to use the boards. If you do not feel that you can follow the rules here, you have the right to create your own message boards and make your own rules there. cygnus is a private business, and if you'd actually read the Bill of Rights, you'll see that "Freedom of Speech" applies to the government, not here.

Just a thought here (something to think about). The internet has it's roots in the DoD, thus it is the governement.

I will give you that Cygnus is a private business. That business is publishing, and as such, you would think that Freedom of Speech would be high on their list.

[HotTrotter]

Ever seen the sign "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? Same thing applies here. When they sign up they agree to abide by the Terms of Service. If they violate that, they will be banned. I don't think Alex/Mike necessarily violated the TOS, but I also don't believe he/she/they were banned. I could be wrong. If you go to any public place and start into obnoxious behavior, you may be ridiculed until you give up and leave, which seems to be what happened here.

Yup, I've seen the sign. I don't think it holds much water though. After all, can you refuse to serve a black person?

As for the TOS, it doesn't really say much.

As for Alex, I found some of those threads to be very interesting. After all, he was hit with a whole bunch of personal attacks, and according to the link provided earlier, that will not be tolerated. I just shook my head in disbelief. And life goes on.

[CaptainGonzo]

Just a thought here (something to think about). The internet has it's roots in the DoD, thus it is the governement.


Gee.. and all this time I though Al Gore created it! :D

[res54cuecaptain]

ok i get your point on that but:

The First Amendment only guarentees that the *government* will not suppress speech. They (moderators/administrators of internet forums) can kick out anyone they like, or put in place any rules they like without violating the First Amendment.

[LVFD301]

Just a thought here (something to think about). The internet has it's roots in the DoD, thus it is the governement.
.

Wrong again. Although the basis for the internet was in Arpanet, that does not mean the internet is government.

(anyone out there remember THEIR arpanet address?)

[LVFD301]

Gee.. and all this time I though Al Gore created it! :D


I was actually in a sales meeting with Nashville PD, where Southwestern Bell claimed to have invented it....

[LVFD301]

I will admit, I am not a legal professional. However, while the website is privately owned, it is a public place, much like the local mall. I have seen incidents in the past where malls have attempted to through people out for wearing t-shirts they didn't like. It ended up costing the mall a lot of money. I believe the same sort of rules would apply here.



Ok, this is fun. What mall? What mall lost a lot of money because they banned offensive T shirts?

I can ban any offensive T shirt in my store - I may lost a customer, but I won't get sued. No law against it.

While my store may be private, and considered open to the public, I can
still refuse service to people, for pretty much anything, EXCEPT the color
of their skin, sex, orientation, etc.

I can not allow democrats to buy, and I can offer discounts to republicans. I can tell you that white T shirts are not allowed to be worn inside my offices. I can tell you I don't like your haircut, get out. All perfectly legal.

[HotTrotter]

I did a bit of research on this and came to the conclusion that it is not a cut and dried situation. Some links about the story in question.

http://www.nyclu.org/crossgate_lawsuit_052704.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0305-08.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-08.htm
http://www.nyla.org/index.php?page_id=661

To give the brief A man and his son were arrested for trespassing because they refused to take off shirts that contained anti-war slogans. Interesting twist was they bought the shirts in the mall.

It appears there are no first amendment rights in a mall because it is considered private property, and any mall or store can refuse anyone they want too. But then it gets muddy, if the mall was subsidized by government dollars there may be protections because it is then not totally private. And if it is a private entity why are police stationed in the mall?? At any rate, in this case the mall backed down realizing they would lose revenues, customers, and they were getting bad press as well.

And then it gets worse. It could be that the whole censorship thing varies by state as individual states may offer greater forms of freedom.

So it might not be a freedom of speech issue. What about the technicalities of crossing state lines or perhaps the issues of equal access.

I guess in my mind this is an open public forum and the right of censorship should be used loosely and cautiously. It really sets a bad precedent.

I know in most professional venues when one is involved in open discussions or brainstorming they are encouraged to speak and offer up ideas, no matter how ridiculous or absurd they may seem. Many a good solution has its birth in radical and off the wall thinking. To remove this only slows the progress of the profession.

[HolleyFF241]

Hey buddy if you dont like the way it works, dont post here. It's as simple as that...

http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web.jpg

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. From what I gather this Alex fellow posted some stuff that some people objected to. I've read the Terms of Service several times and don't see anything about posting objectionable material or opinions.

So here are my questions

1. How do I know what is objectionable and what is not?

2. Who determines what is objectionable?

3. If something is considered objectionable are others asked if it is not objectionable? Is this a voting process?

4. The Wright Brothers, Einstein, Thomas Edison, Ben Franklin and a hosts of others held thoughts and beliefs that were contrary to the contemporary thinking of the times. If someone posts something that is contrary to the “conventional “ way of thinking, is that grounds for removal?

5. What I am really curious to know is are these forums truly an area for the free expression of ideas and opinions or are they for some reason being censored to only provide the conventional thought processes?

These forums are NOT the place for useless, pointless, inane questions that are being brought up to make you sound intelligent and deep. BTW, it's not working.

Many of us have enjoyed a free exchange of ideas for many years. In both fire service and non-fire service areas, there have been controversial topics debated. There have been heated exchanges and there have been downright hostile battles. I think that some of the people who post on here are stupid, ignorant, drunk or all three. I don't agree with them at all. But I will never, and I think I can speak for most, let anyone try to squelch their expression of their opinion.

My guess is, based on suspicious timing, that you are related in some way to the s*&^-stirrer who posted all of the racial crap here a few weeks ago. Racism is not, in my opinion, a free expression of an idea. It's a mental deficiency.

You cannot possibly be so stupid as to not know what a reasonable group of people would call "objectionable". It's impossible to be that dense. So the only other answer is that you have created an account here in order to stir up trouble. Well guess what? My free expression of an idea is to tell you, again, to take a hike.

[lvwrench]

The horse is dead;please quit kicking the horse and call the grave digger to come and bury the dead animal.

[mcaldwell]

Well guess what? My free expression of an idea is to tell you, again, to take a hike.


:D :D :D ;)

Well Said George. :cool:

[mcaldwell]

The horse is dead;please quit kicking the horse and call the grave digger to come and bury the dead animal.


Oh C'mon, it's just gettin good. Everybody is just starting to get fired up here. ;)

I smell a lock coming, but it'll be entertaining to the end. :D

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally Posted by HotTrotter
I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. From what I gather this Alex fellow posted some stuff that some people objected to. I've read the Terms of Service several times and don't see anything about posting objectionable material or opinions.

So here are my questions

1. How do I know what is objectionable and what is not?

It's like buying a Bugatti Veyron.. if you have to ask how much it is, you can't afford it!

2. Who determines what is objectionable?
Common sense.. and the webteam, who work for Cygnus, which owns this website.

3. If something is considered objectionable are others asked if it is not objectionable? Is this a voting process?

Ther has been some absolute crap posted here that offended just about everyone. One instance was right after 9/11, when some nitwit posted that the death of the firefreefighter wasn't due to terrorists.. that the firefighters themselves were to blame.

After the W6 fire, some irrational peole were calling for the two homeless peoplke who started the fire to be executed. Between the two of them, they had the intelligence level of a child.

Racist crap, inflammatory crap, spam, etc does not belong on a firefighter forum.

4. The Wright Brothers, Einstein, Thomas Edison, Ben Franklin and a hosts of others held thoughts and beliefs that were contrary to the contemporary thinking of the times. If someone posts something that is contrary to the “conventional “ way of thinking, is that grounds for removal?

Not at all.. sometimes "thinking outside the box" is a good thing. Threatening one's job because of a difference in opinion or physically threatening someone here is.

5. What I am really curious to know is are these forums truly an area for the free expression of ideas and opinions or are they for some reason being censored to only provide the conventional thought processes?

Yes.. the forums are a free expression of ideas and opinions. The last time I looked, nobody had a gun to my head telling me what to post.

Censored? on ocassion, yes...but those who own the website make the rules. You don't like the rules? then don't post...

Wasn't that simple?

[LVFD301]

I did a bit of research on this and came to the conclusion that it is not a cut and dried situation. Some links about the story in question.

http://www.nyclu.org/crossgate_lawsuit_052704.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0305-08.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-08.htm
http://www.nyla.org/index.php?page_id=661

To give the brief A man and his son were arrested for trespassing because they refused to take off shirts that contained anti-war slogans. Interesting twist was they bought the shirts in the mall.

.

Looks to be pretty cut and dried to me.

First off, contrary to what you post, they were NOT arrested for refusing to take off the shirts, they were arrested for refusing to leave the mall property. Lets use facts here. They are your friend.

Secondly, as you state, the mall dropped the charges because they realized they could lose customers and have bad publicity. Free market at work! I love it! Notice, they did not drop the charges due to the first amendment, they dropped them do to finances.

Third, the Guilderland Police had a free spot for a substation there. No funds were used in providing that space. The Police obviously felt that was an area that an increased police presence may decrease crime. Like lots of private places that have a public presence.

Last, where is the police substation at Firehouse.com????? Where are the
government dollars? (we already killed your idea that the internet is government, don't go there)

(Oh, I got it... The cops are the guys running around putting drinks and chips on our messages)

[HolleyFF241]

(Oh, I got it... The cops are the guys running around putting drinks and chips on our messages)

ROFL!!!:D :D So very wrong, but still hilarious!

[HotTrotter]

First off. I am in no way shape or form a racist. I treat all people with dignity and respect, I let your actions speak for themselves. I object to this sort of personal verbal attack and feel it is highly unwarranted. However, I have worked with people like this in the past and present. When they feel threatened they resort to immature name calling and try to belittle people in an attempt to make themselves look big. Fortunately, most of our society is smart enough to see right through these kinds of people. I don't know diddly about the individual who called me a racist, but he has lost a great deal of respect and credibility by resorting to such tactics. Nuff Said!!!

Now back to intelligent diatribe.

But now for the internet. 3 of the 13 Root Name Servers are operated by US Government entities, NASA, DoD, and The US Army. So in fact, the government has a hand in how the internet operates. Additionally, the internet got it's birth from a DARPA project that created ARPANET. The internet contains a whole bunch of government and government dollars which enable the actual communications to take place. One could easily argue that the internet is indeed in some shape or form a government entity. Already questions of interstate commerce have been addressed and many states have been unable to regulate it. I would surmise that not too many people in the firehouse forums have the legal expertise to address the complex issues brought on by the emergence of the internet. For instance, the internet by its very nature and definition is a collection of computers all interconnected. The internet is without a doubt a public network. There are such things as private networks, these are not connected to the internet.

And if you read the articles and opinions put forth by many of the people involved in the mall incident you will find that there are varied opinions depending upon where you are coming from. And I’m not talking about the Joe on the street, I am talking about the Lawyers and Judges. I believe there was a case in 1963 that said the mall or store owner could refuse anyone for any reason because it was a private entity. I also believe that since that time much of that ruling has been challenged and overturned. For one, state law may provide more protection than federal law. Additionally, there are more things involved than just freedom of speech. The issue is far more complex, it isn’t a simple black and white situation.

Of course now I wonder, if these malls and shopping centers are private entities why do my tax dollars have to be used to support them. After all, the public has to provide for the roads and access to these places. We install traffic lights to let people in and out. Perhaps as private entities they should be required to pay for the highway and infrastructure improvements needed above and beyond that which is normally required. I guess they are private entities only when it is convenient for them.

[HotTrotter]

Originally Posted by HotTrotter

Ther has been some absolute crap posted here that offended just about everyone. One instance was right after 9/11, when some nitwit posted that the death of the firefreefighter wasn't due to terrorists.. that the firefighters themselves were to blame.

After the W6 fire, some irrational peole were calling for the two homeless peoplke who started the fire to be executed. Between the two of them, they had the intelligence level of a child.

Racist crap, inflammatory crap, spam, etc does not belong on a firefighter forum.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. However, if you allow people to post these things without fear of reprisal you can indeed become educated yourself. To use your example from 9-1-1. Suppose a alrge number of people, especially outside of the fire fighter community had that opinion and posted it here. That would tell me that we have a public relations issue and we need to educate the public at large.

Not at all.. sometimes "thinking outside the box" is a good thing. Threatening one's job because of a difference in opinion or physically threatening someone here is.

Again, the area of threatening ons job would bring up a gray area as well. Some might hold the belief that contrary to the NFPA standards you can do an interior attack with say 3 people, one ot operate the pump and two to go inside. Would this be considered an attack on ones job, afterall, if I can do the job with 3 people why do I need 14? And let us not turn this into a debate about how many people I need on a rig or at a scene. Save it for another thread.

Yes.. the forums are a free expression of ideas and opinions. The last time I looked, nobody had a gun to my head telling me what to post.

Censored? on ocassion, yes...but those who own the website make the rules. You don't like the rules? then don't post...

Wasn't that simple?

What is more disconcerting is to think about the number of people who keep their thoughts and ideas to themselves because “they don’t like the rules”. It is a good thing to know what other people are thinking, for if they are wrong in their thought process and you know you it, you can attempt to fix it. We can’t run around here like the emperor with his new clothes on. For the sake of us all, there needs to be a relaxed atmosphere in here when it comes to the free expression of ideas.

And please, save them name calling and ridicule for your own firehouses.

[lvwrench]

I would not consider all of this as "Intelligent diatribe" but rather a smattering of dribble mixed with an exchange that is akin to trying and win an argument with a woman whose sole purpose is to talk with absolutley no resolution or conclusion to the whole process.

[DeputyMarshal]

I would not consider all of this as "Intelligent diatribe" but rather a smattering of dribble

Stop it! You're giving dribble a bad name.

What happened to getting rid of guest posts?

Time to stop feeding the troll.

[FyredUp]

I couldn't agree more with this statement. However, if you allow people to post these things without fear of reprisal you can indeed become educated yourself. To use your example from 9-1-1. Suppose a alrge number of people, especially outside of the fire fighter community had that opinion and posted it here. That would tell me that we have a public relations issue and we need to educate the public at large.



Again, the area of threatening ons job would bring up a gray area as well. Some might hold the belief that contrary to the NFPA standards you can do an interior attack with say 3 people, one ot operate the pump and two to go inside. Would this be considered an attack on ones job, afterall, if I can do the job with 3 people why do I need 14? And let us not turn this into a debate about how many people I need on a rig or at a scene. Save it for another thread.



What is more disconcerting is to think about the number of people who keep their thoughts and ideas to themselves because “they don’t like the rules”. It is a good thing to know what other people are thinking, for if they are wrong in their thought process and you know you it, you can attempt to fix it. We can’t run around here like the emperor with his new clothes on. For the sake of us all, there needs to be a relaxed atmosphere in here when it comes to the free expression of ideas.

And please, save them name calling and ridicule for your own firehouses.

I work with a guy just like you. In spite of what others tell him he blathers on and on and on and on.

Look...it is really simple. This is www.firehouse.com and is owned by Cygnus. At any time they can decide to completely shut this down if they want to because THEY OWN IT. THEY make the rules because THEY OWN IT. People who come on here with no interest in doing anything but stirring the pot and blathering on and on and playing stupid or perhaps not playing are not here using this site for what it was intended to be used for. There are plenty of racist sites and political sites and in fact there is an off topic area here for discussions that are not fire related. PLEASE listen to what others have said to you and just let this go.

FyredUp

[CaptainGonzo]

A number of "conspiracy theory nutjobs" posted here about 9/11. They were arguing about things they knew nothing about and doubting the very people who were there when the whole thing happened.

When you use the quote of a biotech engineer who suddenly became an expert metallurgist and use him as your "proof".. there's no way that they can "educate" anyone who even has a rudimentary knowledge of buildding constrruction. God knows many of us tried to reason with them, but to no avail. After nobody took their bait anymore, they reeled in their conspiracy line and phished on other forums.

By threatening one's job, I meant that some people actually went as far as emailing copies of threads in which a brother disagreed with his chief about the way things were being done. The Brother in question was terminated ( it was a right to work state theat did not recognize the IAFF local) and the Brother had to fight long and heard to get reinstated.

I myself had a physical threat when I dared question the "antics" of a person whp posted that he knew more about the fire service than the instructors in the course... this "firefighter" failed the basic 36 hour volunteer program given by the state of Ohio.

I received another threat from a "brother" in PA who emailed a threat to me when I questioned his being a member of a certain volunteer fire company in Prince George's County that has a number that can be found on the back of any bottle of Rolling Rock beer.

Let me ask you this, HottTrotter...

Do you allow dissention in the ranks of your FD and allow firefighters to question orders on the fireground because "they don't like rules or taking orders?"

[captstanm1]

Where did this guy come from? I guess it is a good thing they dont make me and Gonzo, CR, Geroge, McCaldwell, Kiwi and a few other crusties moderators! We would all do it though... I think?:confused:

[Steamer]

Hmmm....wasn't the city of Troy gutted by fire after entry was gained using a wooden horse we all know as the Trojan Horse? Considering the "horse" was in close proximity to the fire, wouldn't that make it a "hot trotter"?

I certainly see some similar tendencies between this person and an old blast from the past.

[LVFD301]

First off. I am in no way shape or form a racist. I treat all people with dignity and respect, I let your actions speak for themselves. I object to this sort of personal verbal attack and feel it is highly unwarranted. However, I have worked with people like this in the past and present. When they feel threatened they resort to immature name calling and try to belittle people in an attempt to make themselves look big. Fortunately, most of our society is smart enough to see right through these kinds of people. I don't know diddly about the individual who called me a racist, but he has lost a great deal of respect and credibility by resorting to such tactics. Nuff Said!!!

.

First off, I never called you a racist, implied such, or even alluded to such.




Now back to intelligent diatribe.

.

Yipeee! You are going to start?



But now for the internet. 3 of the 13 Root Name Servers are operated by US Government entities, NASA, DoD, and The US Army. So in fact, the government has a hand in how the internet operates. Additionally, the internet got it's birth from a DARPA project that created ARPANET. The internet contains a whole bunch of government and government dollars which enable the actual communications to take place. One could easily argue that the internet is indeed in some shape or form a government entity. Already questions of interstate commerce have been addressed and many states have been unable to regulate it. I would surmise that not too many people in the firehouse forums have the legal expertise to address the complex issues brought on by the emergence of the internet. For instance, the internet by its very nature and definition is a collection of computers all interconnected. The internet is without a doubt a public network. There are such things as private networks, these are not connected to the internet.




As you state, the internet is a collection of interconnected computer. There ARE private networks connected to the internet, called VPN's, or virtual
private networks.

While some of those computers do belong to the government, FOR THE CONVENIENCE of the government, that does not make the system a government system.

When Mr Licklider first proposed the GLOBAL network of computers, he was with MIT. When Kleinrock developed the theory of packet switching, he also was with MIT. These things happened in 1962.

Roberts, of MIT, first connected two computers together via standard dial up lines in 1965 confirming Kleinrocks work. It was not until 1969 that ARPANET
was even brought online.

To follow your theory then, the internet really belongs to MIT.




And if you read the articles and opinions put forth by many of the people involved in the mall incident you will find that there are varied opinions depending upon where you are coming from. And I’m not talking about the Joe on the street, I am talking about the Lawyers and Judges. I believe there was a case in 1963 that said the mall or store owner could refuse anyone for any reason because it was a private entity. I also believe that since that time much of that ruling has been challenged and overturned. For one, state law may provide more protection than federal law. Additionally, there are more things involved than just freedom of speech. The issue is far more complex, it isn’t a simple black and white situation.

.

Exactly weedhopper. Opinion and articles. Want to quote some caselaw?



Of course now I wonder, if these malls and shopping centers are private entities why do my tax dollars have to be used to support them. After all, the public has to provide for the roads and access to these places. We install traffic lights to let people in and out. Perhaps as private entities they should be required to pay for the highway and infrastructure improvements needed above and beyond that which is normally required. I guess they are private entities only when it is convenient for them.


In order to bring them to your town, so that they generate MORE tax
dollars. Done all day, every day, all across the country. Many times tax
abatements are given to retail, manufacturing, etc. Its the game.

[Dickey]

Oh geezz.......

Look what I started.
:D

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

You seem to have tremendous difficulty in seperating fact from what the little voices in your head are telling you. I never called you a racist either. I stated that I believed there was a relation between you and the scum who was posting the racist material. I still do.

It was also not a verbal attack. It was in writing. You see, its those voices in your head again.

PEOPLE-this guy is going to end up being in the same class as Larry, cdevoe and all the other who have gained infamy with their rambling idiocy. This will be fun.

[CaptainGonzo]

Hmmm....wasn't the city of Troy gutted by fire after entry was gained using a wooden horse we all know as the Trojan Horse? Considering the "horse" was in close proximity to the fire, wouldn't that make it a "hot trotter"?

I certainly see some similar tendencies between this person and an old blast from the past.


Hmmmm...
Thou might be correct in thy assumption.

[Bones42]

My bet is No. His posts are far more "intelligent" than anything T.H. EVER posted.

While the behavior (of not giving up on a lost arguement) is similar, the tone and wording of the posts isn't matching up.

[LVFD301]

My bet is No. His posts are far more "intelligent" than anything T.H. EVER posted.

While the behavior (of not giving up on a lost arguement) is similar, the tone and wording of the posts isn't matching up.

Intelligent? I don't think so. Maybe articulate?

[hwoods]

Oh geezz.......

Look what I started.
:D



YUP!!....... It's all Your Fault.............:D :D :D

[nyckftbl]

I couldn't agree more with this statement. However, if you allow people to post these things without fear of reprisal you can indeed become educated yourself. To use your example from 9-1-1. Suppose a alrge number of people, especially outside of the fire fighter community had that opinion and posted it here. That would tell me that we have a public relations issue and we need to educate the public at large.



Again, the area of threatening ons job would bring up a gray area as well. Some might hold the belief that contrary to the NFPA standards you can do an interior attack with say 3 people, one ot operate the pump and two to go inside. Would this be considered an attack on ones job, afterall, if I can do the job with 3 people why do I need 14? And let us not turn this into a debate about how many people I need on a rig or at a scene. Save it for another thread.



What is more disconcerting is to think about the number of people who keep their thoughts and ideas to themselves because “they don’t like the rules”. It is a good thing to know what other people are thinking, for if they are wrong in their thought process and you know you it, you can attempt to fix it. We can’t run around here like the emperor with his new clothes on. For the sake of us all, there needs to be a relaxed atmosphere in here when it comes to the free expression of ideas.

And please, save them name calling and ridicule for your own firehouses.

Jackass.....I dont care about the rest of the crap you are complaining about...but if you want to refer to the day that 343 brothers were murdered, its 9/11. 9-1-1 is the number you call when you are having an emergency.

P.S. If you dont like what certain people write, there is an ignore button on this website. Get familiar with it.

P.P.S. In one breath, you complain about censorship, lack of freedom of speech, blah blah blah, then you cant take a little ridicule? I guess my freedom of speech doesnt extend to me thinking your an idiot.

[ROOKIELZ]

I guess my freedom of speech doesnt extend to me thinking your an idiot.



I don't agree. Anyone can think that anyone is an idiot.
We just aren't suppose to post it in a forum.
Sometimes we shouldn't say it out loud, either:D

[Dickey]

I don't agree. Anyone can think that anyone is an idiot.
We just aren't suppose to post it in a forum.
Sometimes we shouldn't say it out loud, either:D

So I have a right to free thinking but not free speech??

Sorry, that was out loud. I'll be over here if you need me.:rolleyes:

[ROOKIELZ]

So I have a right to free thinking but not free speech??

Sorry, that was out loud. I'll be over here if you need me.:rolleyes:


Hmmm; I didn't phrase that very well.

You certainly have the right to think anything you want.

You also have the right to free speech. The problem lies within the limits of what society will accept as "acceptable speech." Should you cross that imaginary line, there are sometimes repercussions. Whether the repercussions are just is a matter of individual interpretation. (Which is why people freak out all the time on message boards; there is no face to face interaction to assist in determining the meaning).

Applying the concept here; FH.com has terms of service that set out behavioural and posting limits. An example is "offensive language."
The words that are defined as offensive may be so much a part of a particular persons language that that person no longer considers it offensive and may view it as "just another word."
The next person will come along, read the post with that word in it and be offended because it is a "bad" word with negative connotations.

Same word, different interpretation.

That may be partially the reason that people struggle with the terms of service or even take them as a challenge to see how far they can push the limits.

[DelSol]

Can someone possibly help me as to why I cannot start a thread, it says it won't be posted until a moderator reviews it...however I've tried to post the same thread 3 times without it being posted. Very frustrating being all I'm looking for is some help with pressure governors.

[HotTrotter]

Jackass.....I dont care about the rest of the crap you are complaining about...but if you want to refer to the day that 343 brothers were murdered, its 9/11. 9-1-1 is the number you call when you are having an emergency.

P.S. If you dont like what certain people write, there is an ignore button on this website. Get familiar with it.

P.P.S. In one breath, you complain about censorship, lack of freedom of speech, blah blah blah, then you cant take a little ridicule? I guess my freedom of speech doesnt extend to me thinking your an idiot.


My sincerest apology. I think I may have placed one too many dashes if there, It should have been 9-11. However, it seems you may have missed the entire point of the example.

As for the ignore button, I would never use it. If I limit myself to hearing only those things I like to hear then I miss half the picture. In essence I don’t get an accurate representation of the real world situation.

As for your third comment, I can take ridicule all day long. But don’t call me a racist. Don’t call me a pedophile. Do not call me a criminal. Don’t call me a liar. And don’t call me a cheat. I am know of those things. As for the liar, I may be misinformed, I may have bad information, but I always will tell you things that I believe to be true.

Next

I have come to realize that the topic of the Internet and what it is really doesn't belong here. However, I would like to offer up some food for thought. A network is a group of computers communicating and sharing resources. The Internet is the largest network in the world. Without a doubt the Internet is a public place. So...When you place your computer on the Internet you have made a conscious decision to join the public group known as the Internet. And more specifically, when you put a WEB server on the Internet you have joined a subset of the Internet known as the World Wide Web (WWW). So then, is this really the same as a mall in which you own the property? Or is it more like your car that you own and drive on public highways. In that sense, you must follow the rules set forth by the government and not your own rules. While this is an interesting concept and thought this discussion really has nothing to do with fire fighting at all. So I will continue this discussion in a more appropriate venue.

This shall be my last post within this particular thread (unless someone posts something which clearly needs to be corrected, as in the 9-1-1- example above). And again, I never make fun of that fateful day, and actually, I am disappointed by the number of Americans who have forgotten about it. I believe we should turn George W loose and let him abolish all of those infidels.

[LVFD301]

Ah, Weed hopper. You finally realize you are wrong, so you suddenly declare that the topic is off topic, yet you get the last word in. Very adult. Very professional. Very stupid. No matter, I don't think anyone will be sad to see you go.

If I connect my computer to the net, that does not mean that my computer is now public property. I can connect a web server, and still not have public access. And there IS more to the internet than the WWW. Al Queida has computers connected to the web. Does the US government control those?

But thats fine. By your own words, we will see no more from you on the topic. That is the wonderful thing about the United States, you have the right to say things that are absolutly incorrect drivel, and we can all agree
that you are incorrect.

I have come to realize that the topic of the Internet and what it is really doesn't belong here. However, I would like to offer up some food for thought. A network is a group of computers communicating and sharing resources. The Internet is the largest network in the world. Without a doubt the Internet is a public place. So...When you place your computer on the Internet you have made a conscious decision to join the public group known as the Internet. And more specifically, when you put a WEB server on the Internet you have joined a subset of the Internet known as the World Wide Web (WWW). So then, is this really the same as a mall in which you own the property? Or is it more like your car that you own and drive on public highways. In that sense, you must follow the rules set forth by the government and not your own rules. While this is an interesting concept and thought this discussion really has nothing to do with fire fighting at all. So I will continue this discussion in a more appropriate venue.

[res54cuecaptain]

if what you are saying is true, then if someone in cuba decides to hook their computer up to the WORLD WIDE WEB, then i guess they have the right to say what they want, because i guess ONLY the united state's laws and regulations apply to the internet, right? :confused:

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Hey hot to trot, what doesn't belong here is YOU!

Jackass

Truer words were never spoken.

[lvwrench]

Now, Now George, don't let the monkeys get you wound up. Remember your bloodpressure.

[Dickey]

*****breathe in........breathe out***********

Harness the good.........

.........block out the bad

:D