30 min vs 45 min high pressure scba

[enginerider50]

Good evening. This discussion has come up @ my fd as to whether there is a benefit or risk by going to the 45 minute cylinder rather then staying w/the 30 minute cylinder. Other then the additional 15 minutes of air what are the pros and cons of going to a 45 minutes high pressure scba cylinder vs staying w/the 30 minute scba cylinder?

Now w/those pros and cons are there any articles out there that you guys know of to support or refute the 30 vs 45 minute cylinder.


Thank you for your help in this matter.

[dday05]

I think a 45 would be great but then what about some of the firefighters that are'nt in the greatest shape.I think it would be nice to have though. How much more $$ for a 45? They'd be very good for RIT operations.

[nmfire]

We upgraded to 45 min bottles as well. First of all, lets not forget that you never get that amount of time out of the bottle. As far as we are concerned, it is that much extra air if you are trapped. Can't hurt.

[KevinFFVFD]

my department uses Scott with 2500 psi. of presure, or 25 mins of air or so. the career department right next to use uses 4500 psi., or 45 min bottles. i like them because the extra air, and even though it holds more air they are lighter than our bottles, which are steel. we thought about making the switch but it came down to a money thing becuase those 4.5's cost a lot. i have only used the steel 2.5 bottles at a fire, but i have heard good and bad things about the 4.5's. just depends on department needs i guess.

[mcaldwell]

We just swapped out our old 2216's for 4500's (Both Draegar), and we love the new ones.

The pros for us:

1. The new packs can use either 30, 45, or 60 minute bottles (all using 4500PSI). The 30 minute bottles are incredibly slim and light, but we find the 45's we chose are still lighter than our old units. We plan to buy a couple of 60 minute bottles for the RIT packs this year.

2. Work time is finally reasonable. Our old 2216's were only good for about 10 minutes of real hard work. The 45's get at least 20, and more for light duty stuff. My Deputy once got 90 minutes out of a 45 minute tank while playing victim in a cold smoke environment.

3. Reduces the need for bottle changes on the aerial. We don't have air to the tip on our squrt, but a FF can bring one of the RIT packs up with him and get well over 2 hours worth of air if required. Same goes for confined space work.

4. Training is faster. No time wasted between each evolution swapping bottles. You can get 2-3 evolutions out of a single bottle, compared to 1 before, so that equals more real training time.

We also used to have to pull teams out of a training evolution partway through because of low air. That has not happened once with the 4500's (unless the FF is on the 2nd or 3rd evo.).

5. And last but not least, the obvious safety factor.


The cons:

1. Cost. Ours were almost $7000 CAD each with a spare bottle and integrated bail out kit.

2. A standard 5000 PSI cascade system won't fill many bottles. We tend to find that our 4 cascade bottles will fill no more than 6 x 4500's to near 80%, and even then you need to have the compressor running to top up the bottles within acceptable range. Might be limiting for compressorless field refill units.

3. You might also have to drop another 20-30G for a new compressor and fill station if your old one is not compatible.

[KeithA8]

My dept. uses 30 min scott's for firefighting and 1 hr for Haz-Mat. 30 min is all you need. better profile, lighter, less fatigue.

The dept I came from went from 45 min bottles to 30 min bottles. It was a huge difference in mobility and comfort. The majority of the depts in my area all have 30 min bottles.

[CaptainGonzo]

my department uses Scott with 2500 psi. of presure, or 25 mins of air or so. the career department right next to use uses 4500 psi., or 45 min bottles. i like them because the extra air, and even though it holds more air they are lighter than our bottles, which are steel. we thought about making the switch but it came down to a money thing becuase those 4.5's cost a lot. i have only used the steel 2.5 bottles at a fire, but i have heard good and bad things about the 4.5's. just depends on department needs i guess.

Pressure ratings have nothing to do with bottle endurance time!

A Scott 50 with a 30 minute 2.2 bottle holds pressure at 2216psig, the 30 minute 3.0 bottle at 3000 psig, the 30 minute 4.5 bottle at 4500 psig.

We have the Scott 50's with the 45 minute carbon fiber bottles. When "the peauit gallery" heard that we were going to 45 minute units, they cried that "they were too heavy". Of course, I got blamed, as I wrote the grant that got us the funding to replace the SCBA.

Then they tried them.. and the felt they were the just about the same as the old 30 minute aluminum wrapped Scott 4.5 units we had...:rolleyes"

[FFFRED]

Good evening. This discussion has come up @ my fd as to whether there is a benefit or risk by going to the 45 minute cylinder rather then staying w/the 30 minute cylinder. Other then the additional 15 minutes of air what are the pros and cons of going to a 45 minutes high pressure scba cylinder vs staying w/the 30 minute scba cylinder?

Now w/those pros and cons are there any articles out there that you guys know of to support or refute the 30 vs 45 minute cylinder.


Thank you for your help in this matter.

I work in Manhattan and the argument when we switched was because of the larger buildings we needed the Larger cylinders with increased escape times....ect. Rarely is this needed, I can't remember the last time I used the entire thing at a job.

They are heavier and create a larger profile than the old 30 min cylinders. Unless you have some specific reasoning that is beyond the norm...I would stick with 30 min cylinders to limit work time and keep fatigue from becomming a larger issue.

FTM-PTB

[tjsnys]

create a larger profile

Definitely Not Fire Escape Friendly!

Stay Safe

[ChicagoFF]

We are supposed to be switching too and I can't think of one good reason. They are bigger and heavier - why get them? 30's were just fine and always more than enough for 99% of the fires we did. This city has to be the dumbest pack of jagoffs ever. Everyday they are changing something and no good reasons are given.

[dday05]

We are supposed to be switching too and I can't think of one good reason. They are bigger and heavier - why get them? 30's were just fine and always more than enough for 99% of the fires we did. This city has to be the dumbest pack of jagoffs ever. Everyday they are changing something and no good reasons are given.


On top of upgrading your scba equip, and your new gear, next year they'll be saying they have no money to do anything for the fd.

[ChicagoFF]

On top of upgrading your scba equip, and your new gear, next year they'll be saying they have no money to do anything for the fd.
Tell me about it! Our contract is up again in June and I'm sure we'll have to hear about how poor the city is. :rolleyes:

PS Upgrading?

[FFFRED]

We are supposed to be switching too and I can't think of one good reason. They are bigger and heavier - why get them? 30's were just fine and always more than enough for 99% of the fires we did. This city has to be the dumbest pack of jagoffs ever. Everyday they are changing something and no good reasons are given.


Must be related to the dopes we've got running things around here. While our shops is patching together 1986 spare Tower Ladders and Engines are breaking down with ever increasing regularity...our idiots in command, spent $50 Million on a GPS system which does nothing for us.

Quick math? How many Engines or Ladders can one purchase with $50 Million?

FTM-PTB

[mcaldwell]

C'mon FFRED,

You need the GPS system so you can find the broken down trucks....

Duh! :p :o :D

[Catch22]

They are heavier and create a larger profile than the old 30 min cylinders. Unless you have some specific reasoning that is beyond the norm...I would stick with 30 min cylinders to limit work time and keep fatigue from becomming a larger issue.

FTM-PTB
I'm curious, are you talking about going from 30 min. 4,500 psi to 45 min., or 30 min. 2,216 to 45 min. 4,500? The reason I ask is because our new 45 min. carbon bottles are the same size and lighter than the old 30 min. aluminum 2,216 bottles we're working on phasing out.

In my vollie department's rural setting, I like the extra air. We don't have the luxury of multiple companies and plenty of manpower coming to us. Numerous times we fight fires with only 10 guys or less. By the time we establish IC, ISO, RIT, and apparatus operators (sometimes shuttle ops), there's only a handful working. Even if it's only 10-15 minutes more air, it helps us out a ton. Plus, as I said, the packs are considerably lighter.

I definitely see your point on a more urban setting, though. My career department has the 4500psi wrapped cylinders. Most times we won't go through a bottle before we go from attack to overhaul, but there are occassions. At the same time, our typical structure fire response is 4 apparatus/16-17 personnel.

I'm thinking it's safe to say it's one of those things a department needs to evaluate how they operate, how they want to operate, and what's going to work best for them.

[Bones42]

We went from 30min 2216psi Steel bottles to 45min 4500psi Carbon bottles. More air, longer duration, lighter weight. :D

[FFFRED]

I'm curious, are you talking about going from 30 min. 4,500 psi to 45 min., or 30 min. 2,216 to 45 min. 4,500? The reason I ask is because our new 45 min. carbon bottles are the same size and lighter than the old 30 min. aluminum 2,216 bottles we're working on phasing out.

High pressure to high pressure.

[SWLAFireDawg]

In my vollie department's rural setting, I like the extra air. We don't have the luxury of multiple companies and plenty of manpower coming to us. Numerous times we fight fires with only 10 guys or less. By the time we establish IC, ISO, RIT, and apparatus operators (sometimes shuttle ops), there's only a handful working. Even if it's only 10-15 minutes more air, it helps us out a ton. Plus, as I said, the packs are considerably lighter.


We typically have small response groups as well, but we carry enough extra packs and spare bottle to facilitate at least twice the normal number of people.

The extra air would be nice, but I wonder if it would make people complacent in air conservation, and forget the simple things like breathing techniques and keeping an eye on that bottle pressure? Just curious.

I am by no means in great cardio shape, and I can get a good 12-15 minutes minimum out of a 2500 min bottle if I really pay attention to my breathing.

Are there other more pressing concerns that may require that extra funding?

[Catch22]

High pressure to high pressure.

That's what I was figuring, the other way didn't make any sense.

We typically have small response groups as well, but we carry enough extra packs and spare bottle to facilitate at least twice the normal number of people.

The extra air would be nice, but I wonder if it would make people complacent in air conservation, and forget the simple things like breathing techniques and keeping an eye on that bottle pressure? Just curious.

I am by no means in great cardio shape, and I can get a good 12-15 minutes minimum out of a 2500 min bottle if I really pay attention to my breathing.

Are there other more pressing concerns that may require that extra funding?

Extra packs is part of our issue (rather the lack thereof). Right now I'm working with 6-2.2 of varying age and condition and 6-4.5. The 4.5's came from a DHS grant, so we don't have a dime in them. I've got the likelyhood of an AFG grant for 12 more plus RIT packs and bunkers for everyone. The 2.2's are likely going to be reserves that the explorers can use when we don't need them for frontline personnel, which we shouldn't with 18 of the 4.5's.

Most of the guys are in fairly good shape and can get 20+ minutes out of the 45 minute packs, which is helpful. The experienced guys do a good job of relaxing and conserving air. We do a lot of on-air training to make sure everyone's comfortable and used to the packs.

I've got some equipment issues, but for 5% match I think it's worth going with the 4.5, 45 min. packs. If we were spending budget money, we'd likely stick with the 2.2's for monetary reasons. We've actually got a needs matrix set up for our priorities so we can address them by highest priority with the money available. We shoot for a grant for higher priced items that we need but can get by with what we have if we are denied. Major priorities we try to budget in.

[Fytnfire]

My dept just switched from Scott 30min to Scott 45s all I have heard was complaints on how much heavier they are. I can see the extra 15 min being worth it but if you use more air carrying around a heavier bottle then I don't see any benifit at all. Its all a crap shoot some folks could benifit from this change and others won't. This is just my recent observations. Hope it helps

[FyredUp]

Okay let me interject a different view point on this topic.

How about we look at our response areas and use that as a basis for what rating of cylinder we need?

If your response district is primarily single family dwellings is there really a need for a 45 or 60 minute cylinder? In my humble opinion no there is not.

If, however, your response district is filled with large factories or industrial complexes or huge apartment complexes perhaps you can justify the need for a 45 minute cylinder.

FyredUp

[mcaldwell]

Okay let me interject a different view point on this topic.

How about we look at our response areas and use that as a basis for what rating of cylinder we need?

If your response district is primarily single family dwellings is there really a need for a 45 or 60 minute cylinder? In my humble opinion no there is not.

If, however, your response district is filled with large factories or industrial complexes or huge apartment complexes perhaps you can justify the need for a 45 minute cylinder.

FyredUp


Probably true, but if your district is single family homes, are you really going to complain about the little extra weight of the 45 minutes cylinders.

Your not exactly humping them up 20 stories twice a day.


And as for the city guys, I often see them humping spare cylinders up the stairs with them (to a safe staging area) so they don't have to come all the way back down to change. Wouldn't the one bigger cylinder on the back just make that easier?


It's all personal preference I think.

[MG3610]

We have 30 Min cylinders at the firehouse, except the rescue has 45 minute cylinders and 60's on the haz-mat truck. The SCBA are Scott Fifty. I'm a huge fan of the 30 minute cylinder. Having worn both I prefer the weight and mobility of a 30 min cylinder. At the fire training center, we have 45 min cylinders. I always try to grab one of the old metal frame packs since the frame assembly is so much lighter than those new fiftys.