24 hour shifts. Need input before voting.

[polecat]

Our membership will soon be voting on changing our hours of work,from the traditional 2-10 hr. days / 2-14 hr. nights,followed by 4 days off, to instead ,24 hrs. on, 24 hrs. off, 24 hrs. on, with 5 days off. The members seem equally divided into two groups. There are those who would love to save the fuel with half the commutes ,and vote in favor of 24 hr. shifts. These members generally live the furthest from work. The members who are against 24 hr. shifts, typically are young dads,concerned they will have less opportunitys to coach their kids, and special occassions like birthdays and Christmas would be missed entirely.Myself,i'm worried about the few anal taxpayers who figure we're not working hard enough. I also recently heard that some of our local law enforcement officers are choked that we sometimes sleep on the job,and think the beds should be removed. Sure hope that topic disappears. Please weigh-in, I'd like to hear your views.

[medic27205]

We work straight 24 on and 48 hours off. I've worked this schedule for almost 19 years. Love the schedule. I find that I have plenty of time for all those activities because I only work 10 days a month. Yes, we work Christmas and other holidays but my family has learned to adjust easily, they just celebrate the day before or the day after. Usually if we work Christmas day, it has not been to hard to get someone to switch a few hours for me so I can be home in the morning for the Santa thing. I think you would find that it is not a bad schedule unless the call volume is so high that it doesn't allow much sleep time.

[polecat]

Yo bro. The only down side I can see with your schedule is that many of the boys and a few girls too,myself included, like an extended period of days off,so they can enjoy a roadtrip with-out arranging shifts off Other then that, I think your org. has an excellent schedule, one that I wouldn't mind trying. BCNU bro.

[polecat]

note to self;- stay off line ,when to heavily into the corn ,or else be sure to proofread what you write ,before clicking' Post.' I may of just implied that I'm a girl, in my last post. Yeah right! a girl named polecat! Hey,wait a minute??

[hwoods]

Common shift here is 24 on, 72 off. Take one shift off, and you have seven days off in a row. Not Bad. Folks here would never go back to anything less.

[hwoods]

Stupid Double Post............:mad:

[polecat]

I haven't done the math yet but i'm wondering, does your shedule add up to an 84 hr.pay cheque?The reason i ask is because one earlier respondent stated their dept. worked 24 on,48 off. One thing I know is that few members would take a cut in pay for more time off.

[KBRfiredog]

24-hr shifts are defintely a good thing. 24's are all ive worked but i dont think id like the feeling of coming in knowing i was leaving 10 or 14 hours later. i like knowing im gonna be there all day and night to be able to get more stuff done and have more time to relax.

[polecat]

First off, how cool is this! One of our bravest checking in from Iraq! I'm so stunned (and half tanked) I can't remember what I was planning on saying? I think it had something to with 24 hr. shifts? doesn't matter, because i (kinda) met one of the bravest persons on the planet.

[CaptainGonzo]

There are those mutts who will look at the 24 hour schedule, do the math and say that "you are only working 90 days a year.. and the vacation days and personal days, and that can be cut down even further.. what are you willing to give up in your contract to get 24 hour tours?"

Nothing. All it is is rearranging the work schedule. You still put in the same number of hours each week.

Remind them that your 24 hour tour of duty is like them working 3 days, only you do it all at once. That usually shuts them up.

I also recently heard that some of our local law enforcement officers are choked that we sometimes sleep on the job, and think the beds should be removed.

They're just pissed because they took the wrong exam. Most cops would be firefighters, except for that "fear of fire" and "fear of heights" thing....:rolleyes:

[firedog21]

Polecat

I thought the Provincal Police, Fire, bargining act only allowed fire fighters to work 10s and 14s or (4, 10 hour day shifts ie day shift fire prevention). I might be wrong but you might want to check into that.

Cheers Firedog21
I.A.F.F. Proud

[KBRfiredog]

First off, how cool is this! One of our bravest checking in from Iraq! I'm so stunned (and half tanked) I can't remember what I was planning on saying? I think it had something to with 24 hr. shifts? doesn't matter, because i (kinda) met one of the bravest persons on the planet.


i appreciate it bro. we're doing the same job you all are doing, just a little further away from home. theres actually a bunch of guys from iraq on here. just check out the Americans Overseas forum.

if you're interested here's a link to a video made by one of our guys. it was done a couple years ago before i was here. only big difference is we don't use the iraqi fire trucks anymore. we have a fleet of Sutphen pumpers now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz26ODGoQto

[gatoremt]

Thanks KBR,
That was to cool. Good luck and be safe over there.

[gatoremt]

On the 24 hr shift thing. I would do anything to be working 24/48 shifts again. I worked it for 5 years in EMS and I am not able to work it now in the Prison system. I loved the 2 days off.

[E229Lt]

Points to ponder:

Do you receive overtime for runs during shift change? If so, those OT runs are cut in half.
How about travel pay for details at the start of tours? Also cut in half.

Are you allowed to swap shifts: a day for a night and work a 24 when you want? If so why be forced when you can choose.

We work a 9-9, 48 off then 15-15, 72 off. The majority of our members wouldn't even allow our unions to talk about it, much less change it. And our city has been trying to sell us on 24 hour tours for some time.

If they want it that bad, it's good for them and bad for us.

If you do decide to change, bargain a productivity raise for it.

[Catch22]

I've been working 24/48 for several years now (7 I think, man how time flies) and wouldn't have it any other way. You take one shift off and you get 5 days and still get a decent check (I'd hate to go on a 24/72 making only $10.82/hr :eek: ). Plus, there's two full days between. But, it's all on what you get used to. If you went like you described, once the guys got used to it they'd probably wonder why you hadn't done it before. I also know guys on a neighboring department thatare on the 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 4 off (or however that one goes, I'm sure I butchered it) schedule that woudn't test at our department to save their lives because they love what they're on.

[Nozzleman25]

We work 24/48's and wouldn't have it any other way. Paychecks are 104 hrs every two weeks Since our average hours are 52 per week when kelly days are fugured in. Great schedule and alows plenty of oportunity to work OT if it is available.

[Ack8236]

We work 24's, on-off-on-off-on-off for 4 days. I love it and never want to go back to anything less than 24's. We work 112 hours in a two-week pay period. We don't have Kelly days, so we get the FLSA "OT".

[FFFRED]

Points to ponder:

Do you receive overtime for runs during shift change? If so, those OT runs are cut in half.
How about travel pay for details at the start of tours? Also cut in half.

Are you allowed to swap shifts: a day for a night and work a 24 when you want? If so why be forced when you can choose.

We work a 9-9, 48 off then 15-15, 72 off. The majority of our members wouldn't even allow our unions to talk about it, much less change it. And our city has been trying to sell us on 24 hour tours for some time.

If they want it that bad, it's good for them and bad for us.

If you do decide to change, bargain a productivity raise for it.

I'm with him on this as well. I'd vote no but the circumstances might be a bit different there than here.

Best of luck whatever you guys choose.

FTM-PTB

[turbo1]

Our membership will soon be voting on changing our hours of work,from the traditional 2-10 hr. days / 2-14 hr. nights,followed by 4 days off, to instead ,24 hrs. on, 24 hrs. off, 24 hrs. on, with 5 days off. The members seem equally divided into two groups. There are those who would love to save the fuel with half the commutes ,and vote in favor of 24 hr. shifts. These members generally live the furthest from work. The members who are against 24 hr. shifts, typically are young dads,concerned they will have less opportunitys to coach their kids, and special occassions like birthdays and Christmas would be missed entirely.Myself,i'm worried about the few anal taxpayers who figure we're not working hard enough. I also recently heard that some of our local law enforcement officers are choked that we sometimes sleep on the job,and think the beds should be removed. Sure hope that topic disappears. Please weigh-in, I'd like to hear your views.


Any news on how the vote went?? I'm just to the west of you in Vancouver and we voted in favour of trying it. Now just because we voted in favour doesn't mean its gonna happen anytime soon. It's been dragged through city council meetings, presentations have been made in favour of it etc....Upper management is against it (probably because its something the men want) and now the rumour is it's going to be brought up in negotiations for our new contract. Personally i'm all for trying it on a test basis like Toronto Fire, but if we have to give up something more in contract talks to get it they can go pound sand.....................

[JHR1985]

I love working 24-48. You take off a shift and you got 5 whole days off. OT isnt a problem for me. We have FLSA overtime and Kelly days, which for us is 24 hours of OT pay 4 times a year. Gives you plenty of time to work a part time gig and such.

Biggest downside to it is when you work a swap, you gotta work like 48 hours in a row. I've done 72 and wasnt my favorite time but I would still do it again.

[turbo1]

Biggest downside to it is when you work a swap, you gotta work like 48 hours in a row. I've done 72 and wasnt my favorite time but I would still do it again.

Is there any possibility of working half a shift(12 hrs) when doing a swap?? Or do you have to work the entire 24 hrs. Also like most departments we have our busy stations and our quieter ones. Do the guys working out of your busier ones get burned out faster??.....Has it cut down on sick time?? because that would be a real selling point to the city. .............thanks for any input. We have been looking at the 24 hr shift for sometime now...............

[allineedisu]

ummmm, a ten and fourteen is the only way to go, but that is all I ever worked and it was in the contract.

[JHR1985]

You can work it however you want.... 12's...3's but I tend to prefer to do 24's since I want the whole shift... not just half. Now, if I get called up and they need me in a hurry, thats a different story.


But, it also depends on your admin's SOP's. Some want a 72hr notice before a swap... some limit the amount of swaps you can do in a year... some frown on cash swaps. Variety of crap.



And, it cuts down on sicktime some. Some prefer, if they get approval to rather than going home sick, to get a swap to come in. Hard part is getting someone to come in on such short notice

[callaway75]

Recently switched from 3 days 10hrs, 3 off, 3 nights 14 hrs 3 off. Now we do 24/72 and everyone pretty much seems to love it. Trade time can be done any way you want, 4hrs, half shift, whole shift, etc. So far sicktime is a little less, but not enough time yet to see a true average for comparison. Awesome for guys with other jobs, lots of free time.

[DrParasite]

24s are great if you are a slow department. like, if you only get maybe 5-10 calls (or less) in a 24 hour shift, then they are great. but if you are getting 20 calls, then what? if you have been running your ass off for the first 20 hours, how good will you be when you get the multiple dwelling fire with people trapped, then what?

Are you aware of how many hours you can be awake before your body stops functioning at 100%? I know for me, after hour 21, I end up extremely grumpy and shivering, and desperate need of sleep. It's a complete change from my normal personality.

now, do you want an apparatus driver who has been up for 24 hours? or 20 hours? cause we all know that everyone sleeps right before they get ready for their shift right? why do you think most urban and suburban EMS agencies don't work 24s?

Again, 24 hour shifts are great for slow houses. and if you typically can get enough time to sleep, then I absolutely think you should pursue them. but if you typically running for most of your shift, then imagine how that can feel after hour 20.

[polecat]

Like you , I too wear down towards the end of a busy 24 hr. shift. Its fine to work 24's on occassion, but I don't think I'd want them on a regular basis. I suspect some crew members would need to pace themselves for the long haul, by refraining from strenuous activities early into their shift.and may neglect their normal duties as a result. Getting a few zzz's at work is no guarantee for me, assigned to the 3rd busiest engine co. in Canada. ( Metrotown).Sooner or later the big one will happen 10 minutes before shift change,when the fatigue has set in to the point where the driver may feel impaired from sleep deprivation,not a ideal situation from a safety stand point. Thanks for everyones input. I'm amazed at the variety of work schedules that are possible

Yours in solidarity,

Bryan Kirk

[turbo1]

Like you , I too wear down towards the end of a busy 24 hr. shift. Its fine to work 24's on occassion, but I don't think I'd want them on a regular basis.

That was one of the point's that management was using to try and squash the 24 hr shift possibility in Vancouver. They said it would be too hard on the guys in the Downtown core and some of the stations on the east side. Lots of pro's and con's on this topic i'm starting too see................

[DeputyMarshal]

The members who are against 24 hr. shifts, typically are young dads,concerned they will have less opportunitys to coach their kids, and special occassions like birthdays and Christmas would be missed entirely.

What they have to understand is that they will be working exactly the same number of day shifts and night shifts that they have always worked. They will have as much time -- or more -- to be with their families with a 24 hour shift block as they had with seperate 10's and 14's.

The only difference is that, if one particular day is critical, they might have to work that whole 24 hour tour*. Of course the odds of that happening are only 1/2 the odds that they'd miss half the day now...

PS if you do go to 24s, keep your 24 hour "tour" as 10 & 14 hour "shifts" run end-to-end. It's less hassle to replace time off that way, IMHO.

*(Do you have a "swap" provision in your contract? For most days there's going to be someone available and willing to swap half or all of an occasional tour against getting bailed out of one of their tours in exchange.)

[jonnyirons2]

We routinely do 20 run 24's where I work (not every 24 hour shift), and the Engina does even more. I have been so tired that I cant remember what i was walking from the housewatch to the kitchen for and been so awake when the tone alarm went off for a 'Multiple calls 4 engines and 3 trucks, Clown Wagon and Squad' run that you guys must have 20 years on the job. I really wouldnt worry about the guy that you 'think' may be tired to deter you from doing 24's. Dont worry you will not regret it, you probably dont have laws that prevent you from doing 24 hour shifts back to back like we do, another big reason we wont ever take 24 hour tours from the City.

[mikeyboy]

At my Career Department, we work 48 on 96 off....... If I time trade a tour, then I get 10 days off........ I have worked a number of different schedules and this is the schedule that I would recommend to any Department. Here's why, if you get hammered what do you usually do.......... sleep. With this schedule, you sleep the first half of the day (or however long it takes you to recoup) then you still have 3 days with the family. In a 4 week cycle at a busy house you get to see your family between 14 and 20 days. As a family man this is awesome.

I know that there are critics that say we run ______ calls a shift so we have to run partials........ hey if it works for you then cool. I'd rather get my tail handed to me and not have to worry about work once I go home. Yes, I have worked at busy houses and yet it still works for us.

My Paid-Call Department runs both schedules. Part of the Department runs 24 on-off-on-off-on-off-on then a four day...... every 3rd 4 day is replaced with a 6 day. Having worked this schedule for many years, it doesn't even come close to the 48/96 schedule.

As far as the really busy Stations, my advice is that Management needs to realize that the busy Stations don't need to be bogged down with the B.S. "busy work" that is usually associated with this job. The slower Stations should be able to absorb most of these chores. I'm not sayin' that busy Stations shouldn't do the minimum or meet the Standards set by the Department but the slower Stations should be able to handle any Special Assignments, unless the personnel at the other Stations are willing to accept the task.
Another idea is to rotate the busy Stations with the slower Stations, not for a while just a few days a month or whatever works for your Department. That way the bulk of the Department is sharing the work load and getting to know other parts of the City.

KBRfiredog,
I had an ole' Capt. that went to work there, tryin' to catch-up with him to see how he is doin'......... Also, was that a San Bernardino County Fire Department patch that Daniel Clark was holding? I am only curious cause that is the Department that my Buddy worked for and retired from......
Also, used to have a Probie FF that worked for my Career Department that went back to work there. I am also curious how he is doin'........ P.M. me and I'll get you the names to see if you have heard of 'em or are able to track 'em down for me.......... :D

[R1SAlum]

[QUOTE=mikeyboy;767773]At my Career Department, we work 48 on 96 off....... If I time trade a tour, then I get 10 days off........ I have worked a number of different schedules and this is the schedule that I would recommend to any Department.

I wouldn't want that shift. Anyone with a 4-shift platoon schedule working a 42 hour work week probably doesn't either.

[DeputyMarshal]

I wouldn't want that shift. Anyone with a 4-shift platoon schedule working a 42 hour work week probably doesn't either.

Got to agree with that even for a 3-shift schedule... A 48 hour shift is just too long to be at the firehouse. 24 hours on for a regular shift is about the limit. The occasional 34 or 38 thrown in with an OT shift isn't bad but not all the time.

Our rotating shifts changed a few years ago from 3 on / 3 off alternating days and nights each tour to 24 on / 3 days off. I don't think anyone here would ever vote in favor of going back.

My only regret is that we didn't go to 24 on / 24 off / 4 days off instead. Either way, 24 hours shifts beat 10s and 14s. (Unless you have a super busy department and the 24s constantly wear you out. ;) ).

[mikeyboy]

A 4 Platoon System........ this schedule would be even sweeter than...... 2 days on and then 6 days off......... 6 days everytime you go home, that makes for a lot of days with the family. Most Departments here run a 3 Platoon System, so we don't have that luxury.

How exactly does a 4 Platoon System work? My curiousity is peaked.......

[DeputyMarshal]

How exactly does a 4 Platoon System work? My curiousity is peaked.......

4 shifts averaging 42 hours per week as opposed to 3 shifts averaging 56 hours per week.

Some of the simpler 4 shift rotations are: "3 on / 3 off" - A/C, A/C, A/C, B/D, B/D, B/D, C/A, C/A, C/A, D/B, D/B, D/B (work daytime shift for 3 days, 3 days off, work nights for 3 days, 3 days off); "24 on / 24 off / 24 on / 5 days off" - A, B, A, B, C, D, C, D; "24 on / 3 days off" - A,B,C,D.

There are other more complex variations with 53 hour average work weeks with odd 8 hour shifts thrown in here and there but I've never had the misfortune of having to figure out how they work. ;)

[R1SAlum]

Mikeyboy

The 4 platoon, or 4 shift system is primarliy an East Coast thing. We are fortunate through the collective bargaining system or the legislature, to work roughly the same hours the rest of the city employees do. In Washington the version we work is 24 on and 72 off. I still don't want to be in the firehouse for 48 hours straight even if you apply it with 120 hours off.

[LtTim556]

I work a 72 hour week. 24 on 24 off. We get a Kelly day in each pay period giving 3 days off and it works out that once a quarter we get two Kelly days back to back giving 5 days off. We don't have many runs and even fewer fires but it ain't bad. If you can schedule vacation between a 3 day and a 5 day you can have 22 days off in a row.

[DeputyMarshal]

I work a 72 hour week.

That's not a job, it borders on slavery. :eek:

That sh*t just ain't right no matter how slow the station is -- even with OT after 56 hours... :(

[mikeyboy]

Thanks for the info.

I can understand why there is the reluctancy to work 48 hrs...... I respect that.

I still think that a 4 Platoon System is a great idea...... would never fly here though......... LOL.

[JHR1985]

For the ones who talk bad about the 24hr schedule.....

some of the busiest departments in the nation do the 24 variation of some kind. FDNY doesnt but Dallas, Houston, Chicago and LAFD do it too I believe.