O-fers

[Chief310]

Yes, once again we got the dreaded "Dear John". I was just wondering how many other O-fer's there are out there. So far, we're 0 for 5 (didn't apply the first year). Is anybody out there actually 0 for 6?

[Heretic]

0 for 5 here as well, as of today. :( 0 for 4 for the AFG, 0 for 1 on the FP&S.

This is the farthest we've ever made it, however. A minor tweaking, then, if the AFG is till around next year, hopefully we can score.

[Edmeston2]

0 for 6 here. I have done the last four, made it later in the process last year than this year. Can't get discouraged though have to keep trying to see what we can fine tune. Time to stop checking for 1099's and see samples of successful PPEs to improve our chances.

[Edmeston2]

0 for 6 here. I have done the last four, made it later in the process last year than this year. Can't get discouraged though have to keep trying to see what we can fine tune. Time to stop checking for 1099's and see samples of successful PPEs to improve our chances.

[kd7fds]

0 for 5 on AFG
0 for 2 on FP&S

We have big hopes for this years FP&S. I think we did a good risk assessment and have a detailed plan for how we are going to address a major issue.

Our main problem is we have never made it to peer review. Always get shot down at the computer.

[BC79er]

Not making Peer means your stats don't support the project. Whether that's because it's a high cost with low population or call volume numbers, or there are too many requests in the list no one knows until it's checked. Vehicles are a different animal, that's just plain competition. But rarely will a PPE app only requesting structural PPE not make Peer. I have one, but in 2005 they had no structure fire calls, and only 10 total. Numbers don't lie, they have a need, but not a statistical need compared to everyone else, namely anyone with more than 20 calls.

There's plenty of free, no obligation help out there. I work with the largest equipment vendor in the country, Kurt's over there at Chief doing the same. If you don't like either of us I have a list of people that aren't free but will do the right thing and won't overcharge. Alana being one of them of course, but there are more out there. Just have to watch out for the snake oil dealers that are trying to rip you off, ie anything on a % basis or involves a "," in the fee.

The first step is going to get help from someone that has been successful, whether it's one of us or even a mutual aid department or someone on these forums willing to share. Everyone else is getting this help, don't go it alone if you don't have to.

[Capt790]

Just got the DJ yesterday...0 for 4.

The e-mail said we made it to peer review but they could not see how new SCBA would "benefit the daily operations" of our department :rolleyes:

Now I know there are plenty of departments in my area that have gotten SCBA and other equipment that are not used on a daily basis...still scratching my head over this :(

[msgogeke]

Not making Peer means your stats don't support the project. Whether that's because it's a high cost with low population or call volume numbers, or there are too many requests in the list no one knows until it's checked. Vehicles are a different animal, that's just plain competition. But rarely will a PPE app only requesting structural PPE not make Peer. I have one, but in 2005 they had no structure fire calls, and only 10 total. Numbers don't lie, they have a need, but not a statistical need compared to everyone else, namely anyone with more than 20 calls.

There's plenty of free, no obligation help out there. I work with the largest equipment vendor in the country, Kurt's over there at Chief doing the same. If you don't like either of us I have a list of people that aren't free but will do the right thing and won't overcharge. Alana being one of them of course, but there are more out there. Just have to watch out for the snake oil dealers that are trying to rip you off, ie anything on a % basis or involves a "," in the fee.

The first step is going to get help from someone that has been successful, whether it's one of us or even a mutual aid department or someone on these forums willing to share. Everyone else is getting this help, don't go it alone if you don't have to.

Yes, I agree! I am concerned as this is the first year our rural department ( pop. <10,000) I can remember where so far , knock on wood, we haven't had even ONE full working structure fire, well I take that back, the meat packing plant outbuilding...but no entry team. We also didn't have the typical dry spring/summer here in colorado and extreme drought conditions so the wildfire numbers are way down as well for 2006. I will wrap up our first ever year of reporting to NFIRS, it looks like we might as well continue because many of the state funded grants anymore want to see NFIRS.The NFIRS data is supporting to some degree our reported numbers from the grant award, but it has been a slow year so far. I think it IS so important to sit down with all key players and get as close to the real numbers you can get, population, call volume, etc. I had people who weren't even familiar with fire service review the narrative to see if they understood what I was asking. Also asked a local person who has gotten several grants for low-income housing to help us; this is what seems to have gotten us past the computer scoring the past 2 years, we used to get bumped out right away. You might luck out one year with guesswork numbers but it'll catch up. We are 1 for 5 AFG, 0 for 3 FP & S (I think). hoping for 2 for 6 on AFG, no AFG 2006 DJ....yet.

[Bones42]

We are 0 fer.....

Have not heard anything yet this year, which is further along than we have ever been before. I'm still not excited.

We've applied each year and I think 1 time made it to peer review.

[ktb9780]

Folks as Brian said, a little education can go a long way towards getting that coveted award. Both of us have quite few seminars on the books all the way out till opening day of 07 AFG. You can go it alone, learning via the school of hard knocks (AKA the dreaded DJ) or get on the fast track by attending an educational seminar on these grants. Lean from the people who deal with these grants for a living and have helped many. Now is the time to get in there and find out what the others have learned and get your name on that award list. ;)

[WebFire]

Research and read! Read the AFG Program Guidance and understand it. Then create your narrative addressing what it asks for. Read and study other successful apps. Do research on your project and give numbers to support your need, not just that you need it and are poor. Everyone else is too.

I am 3 for 4 and the only reason we didn't get it last year was because we still had the previous one open. They have ranged from hose and nozzles to station generator to turnout gear.

Honestly I don't think it is hard, you just have to do it right. I am willing to share my narratives if it will help anyone.

[Chief310]

You can go it alone, learning via the school of hard knocks (AKA the dreaded DJ) or get on the fast track by attending an educational seminar on these grants.

If DJ's make you smarter, just call me Einstein.

I just heard the regional grant that might have benefitted our department also got the raspberry. A question for the 0-fer rules committee: Does that count towards our 0-fer total? If it does, we're 0-fer 7.

[ktb9780]

If DJ's make you smarter, just call me Einstein.

I just heard the regional grant that might have benefitted our department also got the respberry. A question for the 0-fer rules committee: Does that count towards our 0-fer total? If it does, we're 0-fer 7.

Well for the first 4-5 years I wrote grants, that was my only teacher. The DJ told me I had done something worng and then I had to figure out what it was I was doing wrong. :D

[Bones42]

Funny how when you mention being 0-fer, all the grant guru's start telling you to go to seminars and learn from them. I always thought there was no way to cheat the computer scored part....am I wrong?


Narratives don't mean CRAP if you don't get past the computer scoring. And isn't this about writing a grant for WHAT YOU NEED, not what will give you the best chance of winning? (oh wait, that's my flawed belief in this gift program).

[BC79er]

There isn't. But so far I've heard from a lot of 0-fers saying they're not getting past the computer on their SCBA apps. Then I find radios, TICs, and other items in the application, so it's not an SCBA app, it's a laundry list just like DHS says won't work.

And there is no way to 'cheat' the computer, but the way to 'beat' the computer is make sure you're asking for the ONE thing that you need. And if that means SCBA one year and PPE the next, that's the way it has to be. And if you do that and still don't make it past the computer then it is something else in the numbers. Like the one department I wrote for PPE to replace 25 year old set. They ran 10 calls in 2005, 7 EMS and 3 brush fires. 0 structural fires, so they don't have as big of a need for structural PPE compared to someone running 10 structure fires. So even with only asking for 1 project won't get real far if the numbers don't support the need.

And it's about asking for what you NEED MOST compared to the national standards and what we (the fire service) said we need in the surveys. So if you can buy PPE or SCBA and apply to the grants for one of them, why ask for SCBA (more expensive, less chance of success) when PPE is the top priority and has a better chance of picking up the award?

Didn't say anyone had to pay to go to a seminar to get help either. I said either go to the free help outlets or go to A seminar, not MY seminar. Kurt and I, along with the others that get compensation for doing this are 'competitors'. But I'd rather have someone go to his and find out what they can improve on than sit at home and do nothing. So let's not be putting words in people's mouths.

[ktb9780]

I might add a couple of things here that perhaps you are not considering bones42. I cannot speak for Brian but, my seminars do not teach you strictly about grants but also about proper financial strategy for your department. Grants will never resolve all of your problems in a department but, they can certainly alleviate many problems; if used correctly and strategically.

That entails knowing how to set up your budget, knowing what does and does not get funded on grants, proper fundraising and proper investments or usage of your exisiting budget dollars.

There are many variables involved in the computer scoring and having some knowledge about what influences those variables can and does make a difference in many cases. I will grant you that sometimes there is absolutely nothing you can do about your numbers but I, and I am sure Brian, also frequently find that departments sometimes take a haphazard approach to properly answering the questions or supplying the requested infromation. They seem to view it as unimportant or irrelevant to the process because they do not understand the dynamics of the program itself.

You just might be surprised at what may be wrong with your applicaton. Now I said might be surprised. Why don't you get with one of us and let us look and see if we can spot something that you are doing wrong?:rolleyes:

[Bones42]

Didn't say anyone had to pay to go to a seminar to get help either. I said either go to the free help outlets or go to A seminar, not MY seminar. Kurt and I, along with the others that get compensation for doing this are 'competitors'. But I'd rather have someone go to his and find out what they can improve on than sit at home and do nothing. So let's not be putting words in people's mouths. Whoa! Never said anything about "pay" either, so don't put words in my mouth either. :D

Believe me, you guys have offered loads of advice, I'm willing to say very good advice. But the numbers aren't supposed to be "fudged" so for some reason, the computers keep pushing them out. It'd be nice to even know why.

And I understand your points of applying for things that don't jive, but I know a department that received SCBA's and had that whopping 1 structure fire per year average. These computer scores just don't make sense.

[Greenacres2]

I know i've said this before, but...don't confuse "grant writing" with "narrative writing".

Bones--you are right, the narrative doesn't mean anything if you don't get it read. The Gurus (or should we refer to them as the Three Wise Persons at this time of year??) teach the full picture, not just how to write a narrative. Needs analysis, budget, funding, PG reading, development, narrative, bidding, acquisition, close-out--that's "grant writing".

earl (not a Guru, but i drove past a Holiday Inn Express yesterday)

[BC79er]

So we'll call it even and stopped speaking for each other. :)

Anywho, I hear lots of 'they only run 1 fire' stuff too. I actually heard that from someone after getting denied about a neighboring department, and I actually worked the neighboring department's app at a later date and they had reported 30. Now still not a huge number, but it's the little perceptions that sometimes make us biased when writing apps and thinking about what other people have done, and comparing them too closely to our situation. I'm not saying it's not good to check out who has been awarded for what and what their entire situation was that maybe helped them over another app. I've been doing that since denials came out. One comp DJ on a midwest department I attribute to 10 fire related calls, 3 structure, 7 brush. Another one I wrote awarded 1st round had 14 structures and 15 brush. Budget average within $2000 of each other, same # of FFs, similar district sizes etc, etc.

Really doesn't mean much going into the next application other than to temper expectations. Since the players in the game change every year, there's no real way to predict who makes computer and who doesn't. So it's mainly about picking the highest probability and running with it. Some departments have the numbers to make it to Peer every year. Others it will be a long shot. Just the name of the game.

[BC79er]

Who you calling a wise... never mind, cause that's true anyway. Grandpop always said better to be a wise a$$ than a dumb bunny. :)

Yay for me, I'm staying at a Holiday Inn Express this weekend in KC. I wonder if I'll be able to understand Al Gore's fuzzy math by Sunday...

[ktb9780]

Yay for me, I'm staying at a Holiday Inn Express this weekend in KC. I wonder if I'll be able to understand Al Gore's fuzzy math by Sunday...

When are you going to reailze that Embassy Suites is the better choice Brian; Free made to order breakfast and bend your elbow on their dime for two hours every night!:rolleyes:

[BC79er]

Yeah, but they get it out of you at checkout time one way or another. Maybe 10 years ago in my college drinking prime I could drain the profit out of their room price at the tap, but not now. I'm a cheap date. :)

[ktb9780]

Yeah, but they get it out of you at checkout time one way or another. Maybe 10 years ago in my college drinking prime I could drain the profit out of their room price at the tap, but not now. I'm a cheap date. :)

Yea and that $20 breakfast bill hurts my wallet to hard with the wife and kids along for the ride too. Enjoy KC.:)

[BC79er]

Nah, free continental breakfast works for me. Too much good food is why the talking scale says "one at a time please".

Of course it's a sign of the ages when I don't care about either free breakfast or drinks, and the free high speed internet access is the most important thing. :)

[Bones42]

Just the name of the game. and since it's the only game out there, we keep playing. We just set our expectations low. ;)

[Midland35]

I have never gone to a seminar. But I can say that I have spent many hours on the phone talking to Kurt. It has helped my department tremendously.

[Greenacres2]

I have never gone to a seminar. But I can say that I have spent many hours on the phone talking to Kurt. It has helped my department tremendously.

I hope you mean it helped in terms of grants!! :D :D

If you are within a day's drive of Indiana, come out in March--you can karaoke with Kurt in person.

earl

[ktb9780]

I hope you mean it helped in terms of grants!! :D :D

If you are within a day's drive of Indiana, come out in March--you can karaoke with Kurt in person.

earl

She is a little bit further south than a days drive Earl; in the land of Wal-Mart in Arkansas. By the way congrats midland35 on your Round 9 award!;)

[nicoyaspa]

Would you mind if I read your narratives? I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I'd like to see what you're doing. I've done pretty well with AFG, with lots of help. Anyway, if you don't mind I'd be interested in taking a look.

[nicoyaspa]

Another great source of information is your Regional Fire Program Specialist. They offer a free grant workshop somewhere near your area, and the insight you can pick up from them is extremely valuable. They also are available by phone and email to answer questions. The info you get from them should help you determine what to pursue and what to leave out. They're not handing out top secrets, but they can offer some direction.

[Midland35]

She is a little bit further south than a days drive Earl; in the land of Wal-Mart in Arkansas. By the way congrats midland35 on your Round 9 award!;)

Thanks Kurt

[Midland35]

I hope you mean it helped in terms of grants!! :D :D

If you are within a day's drive of Indiana, come out in March--you can karaoke with Kurt in person.

earl

Earl,
Thanks for the invite. Sorry, I'll have to pass on this one as Kurt stated Arkansas is more than a day's drive of Indiana.

[Chief310]

Would you mind if I read your narratives? I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I'd like to see what you're doing. I've done pretty well with AFG, with lots of help. Anyway, if you don't mind I'd be interested in taking a look.

You're welcome to have a look at mine.

For some reason, I can't look at your profile to get your e-mail address. Contact me at chief@nucfd.com and I'll reply with our last narrative.

[Greenacres2]

Earl,
Thanks for the invite. Sorry, I'll have to pass on this one as Kurt stated Arkansas is more than a day's drive of Indiana.

You would be welcome up here any time. A friend of mine moved to Bald Knob a few years ago, we haven't been down to visit them yet, but it sounds like my kind of town.

earl

[54ford]

we're 0 for 6 too. trying to replace a 50 year old truck. computer keeps kicking us out and never have a real person see our application. the govt. won't tell us why we get kicked out just that we're not needy enough. i think it's time the govt changes their computer scoring so other depts finally get some of this money and not all the same depts all the time.

[Fighting41NY]

54 ford, post some of your key application highlights, vehicle lineup, call volume, budget, vehicle applied for, vehicle cost, etc and you will get lots of people to look at your stuff. Sounds like you have an obvious error with your application or something way out of line but it is hard to tell knowing only the age of the truck being replaced.

Maybe time to find one of Brian or Kurt's seminars before March or change tactics. Start now for next year and whoop that computer.

[ktb9780]

54Ford you must be doing something drastically wrong to have been turned down 6 times in a row. Did you ask for the vehicle all 6 times? Hope you guys have been putting money away during that 6 years towards that truck. I will be glad to review your applciation and give you my opinion at what you are doing wrong. Just contact me offline ( look in profile).;)

[Heretic]

Would you mind if I read your narratives? I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I'd like to see what you're doing. I've done pretty well with AFG, with lots of help. Anyway, if you don't mind I'd be interested in taking a look.

Just re-reading the thread, and I missed this. Drop me a line at CFDAlden@gmail.com. I also can't seem to bring up your profile.

-H

[BC79er]

54ford, it's also not just about the truck you're replacing, it's about the other trucks in the fleet. If that 50 y/o truck is the 3rd or later in line out the door then it's not a priority to replace. Now if you're 1st out is over 20 years old, then you have a case. Kurt and I both have seen such situations funded a lot. The misconception is that the age of the one you want to replace is the important metric when it's not.

[cuck922]

Were 0 for 5 also, Awarded in 2001 (wrote the application in hand that year !! )When my neighboring departments are getting awards for vehicles and "tons" of equipment I seriously wonder if applications are "padded" to reflect incresed statics ? The same departments are granted year after year all with low call volume and populations. I want to believe that is not the real reason !

[svfd16]

I've been waiting for a post like this. I have to wonder too.Wish the computer rankings included a check against your NFIRS.

[Edmeston2]

Would you mind if I read your narratives? I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I'd like to see what you're doing. I've done pretty well with AFG, with lots of help. Anyway, if you don't mind I'd be interested in taking a look.

I'm just getting back on line but can't acess your e-mail either. Shoot me your address and I would appreciate you taking a look at the narratives to see what can be done for 2007. Thanks.

[BC79er]

The computer isn't checking NFIRS because they don't have the right systems in place to make that automated (yet). But the GMS or FPS folks are doing that when possible. Since reporting to NFIRS is only required after an award, those that haven't been awarded yet technically don't have to have been reporting, so if there's nothing reported, nothing to compare against.

[svfd16]

New year upon us, should start thinking about this year grant app's, and still no DJ or 1199 update. We've never made it this far (O-fer every year), November is always our DJ month. Hate to start tweeking the current app, cause we need PPE (as we have every app). Read the post about the office move possibly delaying 1199's/10Qs. Seems like the last round of DJs were quite a while ago. Any scoop when the next round of DJ's or 1199's go out?

[BC79er]

Since everything is closed to day with the passing of Pres Ford I don't think we'll see anything today. Maybe tomorrow, but I think we'll be lucky to see awards on Friday with it being an even shorter week than planned.

[LFD1MICHAEL]

Hey all of you o-fers, here is another chance to get better in this game. Look for the Pa seminar in danger thread. There is a 2 day seminar soon that needs 4 more seats filled or it gets cancelled. I'm driving six hours so I hopefully can continue to stay on top of the "game". Don't delay the deadline is this friday 5th.

[BC79er]

Get to that one, one of the others listed on Kurt's site, or check mine by the end of the week also I'll have the updates posted by then. Any workshop beats none.

I have 13 scheduled and many more to post. PA (west, east & central), NJ, NY, MN, IA, KS, with TX, MD, and WV coming soon. Going to be a road warrior for a few weeks. :) With a stop in San Diego for 2 presentations at FH World also. Continental is going to love me... :rolleyes:

[Greenacres2]

My department is hosting Kurt on March 2-3 also. Northwest Indiana, but easy access from anywhere in the midwest. E-mail me through my profile for info if you'd like some.

Brian's right, if you're serious--invest the time and a few dollars to get educated. Our return on investment has been pretty good. Wish my 401(k) would perform like that!!

earl (prepared to work 'til i die :p )

[ktb9780]

I am fixing to be the road warrior myself for the next 90 days, IN,IA,PA,Dallas, San Diego, Las Vegas, Orlando so plenty of places to catch one of us in action. :)

[Tallyho74]

I noticed that BC79'er and KTB970 are both holding sessions in Iowa. Is there anymore info on when and where those will be. Would love to try to get to one!


Ryan

[THEFIRENUT]

We are still O-fer, but have our fingers crossed (no D-J yet).

I will try to make one of the seminars this year. Maybe Kurt's in Dallas, unless Brian is going to have one closer to me (Tyler, Texas area).

[onebugle]

You can go to thier websites for dates, locations & info on upcoming seminars.

Brian aka BC79er
http://www.firegraphics.org

Kurt aka ktb9780
http://www.chiefgrants.com

[ktb9780]

I noticed that BC79'er and KTB970 are both holding sessions in Iowa. Is there anymore info on when and where those will be. Would love to try to get to one!


Ryan

Here you go Ryan ;

http://www.chiefsupply.com/grants/docs/20070223-24_FD_IA_Hawarden.doc

[BC79er]

I'll be in the Des Moines area for a pair of workshops on the 16th and 17th of Feb after being in Indianapolis on the 13th. Just waiting on final word on location before posting.

Nut, we're finalizing the TX dates/locations. For one of the spots I'll probably be using my station, just have to double check the EMT class schedule with the Chief so we don't conflict. Should be having at least 2, maybe 4 around Houston/Dallas/Austin areas. Depends on time, only so many days before the app period closes. :)

[wfdmilo]

Get to that one, one of the others listed on Kurt's site, or check mine by the end of the week also I'll have the updates posted by then. Any workshop beats none.

I have 13 scheduled and many more to post. PA (west, east & central), NJ, NY, MN, IA, KS, with TX, MD, and WV coming soon. Going to be a road warrior for a few weeks. :) With a stop in San Diego for 2 presentations at FH World also. Continental is going to love me... :rolleyes:

Brian,

I see MN in your list, but I can't find it on the website. Can you tell me where you'll be?

Thanks.

[BC79er]

Minneapolis area. I believe we're going to use a Cabela's like in Kansas City last month. I haven't posted the updates because I'm still confirming everything. I hate posting and reposting information, rather git-r-done the first time around. :)

[BC79er]

I posted partial updates to my schedule and a slightly important change in format. For those that were having trouble getting funds to show up to one, you'll be pleasantly surprised. :) Bugle posted the link above, but here it is again anyway: www.firegraphics.org

[DianeC]

Since everything is closed to day with the passing of Pres Ford I don't think we'll see anything today. Maybe tomorrow, but I think we'll be lucky to see awards on Friday with it being an even shorter week than planned.

It's also the start of the very new Congress. A lot of swearing in (and just plain swearing :D ) and parties, etc.

[onebugle]

Brian,

Congratulations on having a sponsor to provide free grant seminar training for departments in 38 states. No $$$$ excuses now. You are doing a great job (Kurt & Alana also) in supporting the fire service.:) :) :)

[BC79er]

Thanks Bugle. Just another way I'm trying my best to get the word out so everyone at least applies, and those that have been at least have the basics. And now some of the bigger knowledge nuggets. I think I've got 17 days so far away from home, and then I'm only back for 24 hours before I'm out again. But since 2:15 yesterday afternoon, this is now my only job. No more software company. :D Although working for me means that my new boss is on my case as soon as I get up in the morning... :rolleyes:

38 states and counting, hopefully should be adding to that total by the end of the year. I know all 50 is the goal, just have to jump through the right hoops to make it happen.

[onebugle]

Brian,

Congratulations on the move to be your own boss. :) Always a big step from the known (regular paycheck) to the unknown. We all know that you will be successful in this venture.

The biggest draw back will be the travel and the time away from the family. With that in mind: play "Cats in the Cradle" by Cat Stevens. This should keep you focused.:D

Good luck and have fun.:)

[BC79er]

Wait a minute, I have to pay me? Dang, the munity has begun, greedy employees. :D

Thanks for the well wishes. The good part is the main time away from home is seasonal, so while I'm out for a good bit, I'm home the rest of the time so I won't have to live Cat in the Cradle. And the Mrs says she doesn't mind if I don't come home every week as long as the money does. I'm just a chauffer and a wallet, no delusions of grandeur here. :)

Man, generation check since I remember both the Cat Stevens version my parents had on LP, and the Ugly Kid Joe one. Think that was their one hit wonder song. I liked MTV way back when it was new... ;)

[Greenacres2]

I was only familiar with the Harry Chapin version of that song. Never knew Cat recorded it. Some comedian also did a version with "cat on my plate at the Peking room..." etc, great lyrics. Both versions fit really well with a lot of travel.

Congratulations Brian. You are now working for the toughest boss you ever had.

earl

[BC79er]

Yeah, he's a real jerk most of the time. :D

Yes, that would be Harry Chapin, not Cat Stevens wouldn't it. Or did Cat do it too. Hmmm.

[onebugle]

Harry Chapin recorded the song in 1974 based on a poem written by his wife (behind every man is a good woman:rolleyes: ). Cat rerecorded it at some point. Seems that is the version I remember (but I can't remember what I did in the last 10 minutes).:D

[SLY4420]

Sorry to interrupt American Bandstand...

But I see Brian is coming to town. Amazingly on my weekend off.

[BC79er]

Sly, what are these things you call 'weekends off'? :D

I'll be spending more time in PA in the next 3 weeks than I have in the previous 5 years since we moved to TX. That's terrible, all the real hoagies and cheesesteaks I get to eat... :rolleyes: