Well now, socialism here we come;

[SPFDRum]

I bet the Pelosis', Kerry's, Clinton's, Kennedy's, and the whole lot have to be real proud of this:
European Socialists eager to work with U.S. Democrats
Thu Dec 7, 2006 3:43pm ET144

OPORTO, Portugal (Reuters) - European Socialists promised on Thursday to work to rebuild Europe's strategic alliance with the United States now that the Democrats control Congress after last month's elections.

Socialist leaders attending a meeting of the European Socialist Party pledged that with the Democrats on the rise, strong ties could be renewed with the United States after years of cool relations with Republican President George W. Bush.

Howard Dean, chairman of the national committee of the U.S. Democratic Party, is attending the two-day conference together with the leaders of leftist governments of several countries and party leaders from across Europe.

"We are not anti-American, we want the real America, your America," former Danish Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, president of the European Socialist Party, said in remarks directed at Dean.

The Democrats gained control of both houses of Congress for the first time since 1994 in the mid-term elections, reshaping the political landscape ahead of the 2008 presidential race.

"Europe needs an America that is back on track," said Portuguese Socialist Prime Minister Jose Socrates, whose country is hosting the meeting.

"We need, today more than ever, to reinforce and renew the strategic alliance between the United States and Europe," Socrates said. "We know that a stronger Democratic Party is key for this to happen."

Socialists, or centre-left governments, currently hold or share power in just over half of Europe.

Many European governments, not just Socialist ones, have above all been angered by Bush's war in Iraq and what has been seen as the U.S. failure to work with allies in international affairs.

They expressed hopes after last month's election for a new era of open dialogue on a more equal footing with Washington and the Bush administration during the final two years of his presidency.

Socrates said Dean's Democrats "should know that they can count on European Socialists" for support.

[LEWTFL]

Europe needs a Europe that's on track.

[DaSharkie]

Socialism is giving the government all of your rights, money, liberties, freedoms, and choices......

And the government doing nothing but want more of them.


This is what Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, Howard Dean, Michael Moore, Jimmy Carter, and the whole lot of them want.

Socialism is doomed to fail. When Europe can be Socialist and show us that it works (France's riots anyone?) then I might give it a thought.

[doughesson]

I don't often agree with you Dasharkie,but this time I do.When a working socialist society can be raised and not fail after 75 years(USSR again,anyone?),then maybe those that support that idea can go live there first before trying it here.

[DaSharkie]

I don't often agree with you Dasharkie,but this time I do.When a working socialist society can be raised and not fail after 75 years(USSR again,anyone?),then maybe those that support that idea can go live there first before trying it here.

There is a difference (albeit minor) between Socialism and Communism.

Both are bound to fail. I distrust much of Europe and their eutopian view of how everything should be and their criticism of how our great Republic is run.

We have our issues, but like I said - show me that it can work then I will consider. Every Socialist country in Europe has glaring failures in how they do things - yet they espouse how great it is. :rolleyes:


And the European Union is doomed to fail, it is only a matter of time. Yet many nations will ride it to the very end thinking that it is the best idea to ever come along.

[jlcooke3]

And the European Union is doomed to fail, it is only a matter of time. Yet many nations will ride it to the very end thinking that it is the best idea to ever come along.
European countries have a history of sticking their head in the sand, hoping to ignore the problems going on around them (WWI & WWII come to mind). Of course all they ever get is buggered from behind.

[STONEREMS]

I bet the Pelosis', Kerry's, Clinton's, Kennedy's, and the whole lot have to be real proud of this:
European Socialists eager to work with U.S. Democrats
Thu Dec 7, 2006 3:43pm ET144

OPORTO, Portugal (Reuters) - European Socialists promised on Thursday to work to rebuild Europe's strategic alliance with the United States now that the Democrats control Congress after last month's elections.

Socialist leaders attending a meeting of the European Socialist Party pledged that with the Democrats on the rise, strong ties could be renewed with the United States after years of cool relations with Republican President George W. Bush.

Howard Dean, chairman of the national committee of the U.S. Democratic Party, is attending the two-day conference together with the leaders of leftist governments of several countries and party leaders from across Europe.

"We are not anti-American, we want the real America, your America," former Danish Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, president of the European Socialist Party, said in remarks directed at Dean.

The Democrats gained control of both houses of Congress for the first time since 1994 in the mid-term elections, reshaping the political landscape ahead of the 2008 presidential race.

"Europe needs an America that is back on track," said Portuguese Socialist Prime Minister Jose Socrates, whose country is hosting the meeting.

"We need, today more than ever, to reinforce and renew the strategic alliance between the United States and Europe," Socrates said. "We know that a stronger Democratic Party is key for this to happen."

Socialists, or centre-left governments, currently hold or share power in just over half of Europe.

Many European governments, not just Socialist ones, have above all been angered by Bush's war in Iraq and what has been seen as the U.S. failure to work with allies in international affairs.

They expressed hopes after last month's election for a new era of open dialogue on a more equal footing with Washington and the Bush administration during the final two years of his presidency.

Socrates said Dean's Democrats "should know that they can count on European Socialists" for support.


This is a perfect example of how Europe, Iran etc view the change in congress along with the new "Iraq Report" - they all view the US as weak and not having the stomach for war when it counts.

Get ready...

[scfire86]

This is a perfect example of how Europe, Iran etc view the change in congress along with the new "Iraq Report" - they all view the US as weak and not having the stomach for war when it counts.

Get ready...

Their viewpoints don't matter. If congress steers too far to the left there is another election only 23 months away. It could just as easily turn back.

If Americans are taking away their support of the war in Iraq one need only look at the top of the org chart. It's been mismanaged from the start. Anyone (including military personnel) who disagreed has been cashiered.

We elected Bush. The buck stops with him. To coin a worn out phrase.

[SPFDRum]

Yes, we did elect President Bush, and more recent, we just vote in a liberal majority.
Sure, they had a big show of getting a study together, showing how weak we are and how we are loosing in Iraq. But is that main their focus, no. They would much rather go for the easy vote and grant immunity to all those illegals that broke the law to get here.
Anyone (including military personnel) who disagreed has been cashiered.
Really, what's your proof? The media, piss ant reservists and guard guys that have to earn their money, and are not at their reserve station, hanging at the nudie bar? Or the stories from real vets or the record numbers going into the Marines?
Mismanaged? Read history. You really think all the conflicts have gone off with out a hitch? Lets review; Argonne Forest, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Operation Market Garden to name a few.
Is it mismanagement or bias reporting?

[STONEREMS]

Their viewpoints don't matter.

Doesnt matter to whom? It will matter to the Americn people when we suffer another attack at the hands of extremeists(sp) who are empowered with the thought we have surrendered and left the fight.


If congress steers too far to the left there is another election only 23 months away. It could just as easily turn back.

A lot can happen in 23 months....

If Americans are taking away their support of the war in Iraq one need only look at the top of the org chart. It's been mismanaged from the start. Anyone (including military personnel) who disagreed has been cashiered.

Really? Who has been dismissed due to thier views on the war?

[johnny46]

Give me comfort or give me death.

wait...

[scfire86]

Doesnt matter to whom? It will matter to the Americn people when we suffer another attack at the hands of extremeists(sp) who are empowered with the thought we have surrendered and left the fight.
And we'll face those problems like we've faced others in the past. The Taliban found out just how soft we were after 9/11. As have others. We just celebrated the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Ask the Japanese how that worked out. We leave Iraq. So what? We're not going away. If anything, we took our eye off the ball by not pursuing Bin Laden. If the other side believes we have surrendered it is because they know we are easily distracted.

A lot can happen in 23 months....
A master of the obvious.

Really? Who has been dismissed due to thier views on the war?
Gen. Shinseki for one. Others (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june06/iraq_4-13.html) who have been critical of Rumsfeld (aka Bush) have found themselves either criticized of relieved of command.

[jlcooke3]

Their viewpoints don't matter.
Maybe not to you but it does to propaganda mission. Those who wish to do evil things to America will use what appears (whether it is or isn't) to be a change in America's war policy as a sign of weakness. Terror groups will use it as a political victory to bolster their recruitment drives. Socialistic governments in Europe will view the change as a sign that their head in the sand, government programs can solve anything policies are correct and that everyone can live in peace BS.

And we'll face those problems like we've faced others in the past. The Taliban found out just how soft we were after 9/11. As have others. We just celebrated the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Ask the Japanese how that worked out. We leave Iraq. So what? We're not going away. If anything, we took our eye off the ball by not pursuing Bin Laden. If the other side believes we have surrendered it is because they know we are easily distracted. Let's not even try to compare WWII with the War on Terror. WWII and specifically the Pacific War was a war of hatred. Raw, unadulterated national hatred for another people. We as a nation simply wanted to destroy Japan. Completley and utterly. If our nation had the same stomach to do what it must to survive, if our people had the same stomach for war, the same hatred for a people as we did in 1941 we wouldn't be having this discussion. Carpet bombing, nuclear strikes, and collateral damage be damned tactics would have either wiped out the middle east or brought them to their knees. And we as a nation would be grateful that we as a nation did what had to be done to survive and prosper.

[scfire86]

Maybe not to you but it does to propaganda mission. Those who wish to do evil things to America will use what appears (whether it is or isn't) to be a change in America's war policy as a sign of weakness. Terror groups will use it as a political victory to bolster their recruitment drives. Socialistic governments in Europe will view the change as a sign that their head in the sand, government programs can solve anything policies are correct and that everyone can live in peace BS.

I guess I am past the point in my life where I cared what other people thought or wrote about me. The "propaganda mission" is not a sufficient reason for me to ask our nation's military personnel to risk life and limb.

I'm just weird that way.

[tbonetrexler]

IMHO, socialism/communism is doomed to fail because of human nature.

There are always people who want to be better than others, have better things, a better life and basically be greedy.

Socialism (communism), IMHO, basically is everyone bieng equal and working together for the betterment of all.

Human nature basically kills that idea before it can get off the ground.

The USSR was not a true socialist state in my mind, because the common people were no better off than they were under the Czars.

Sorry for the hijack, lol.

If this was reversed and it was the European Facist Party (or any other right-wing group) talking about bettering ties with the American Republican party, it would still piss people off.

[jlcooke3]

I guess I am past the point in my life where I cared what other people thought or wrote about me. The "propaganda mission" is not a sufficient reason for me to ask our nation's military personnel to risk life and limb.

I'm just weird that way.
Whether you care or not is moot. Its not about you. Its about other's perceptions of the United States. If we as a soveriegn nation are thought of as weak or as an easy target. Then it does matter. How other nations, groups, society's, etc. percieve us (strong or weak) effects the way in which they deal with us and in turn how our government deals with them.

And you are correct a "propaganda mission" is not sufficent reason, but the end results of those propaganda missions could very well be sufficient reason to wage war on someone i.e. terrorist training camps, weapons production, etc.

[scfire86]

Whether you care or not is moot. Its not about you. Its about other's perceptions of the United States. If we as a soveriegn nation are thought of as weak or as an easy target. Then it does matter. How other nations, groups, society's, etc. percieve us (strong or weak) effects the way in which they deal with us and in turn how our government deals with them.
And those who have those perceptions do so at their own peril.

And you are correct a "propaganda mission" is not sufficent reason, but the end results of those propaganda missions could very well be sufficient reason to wage war on someone i.e. terrorist training camps, weapons production, etc.
See above.

[STONEREMS]

Gen. Shinseki for one. Others (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june06/iraq_4-13.html) who have been critical of Rumsfeld (aka Bush) have found themselves either criticized of relieved of command.

Well, I quickly read that link via my PDA and I did not see anyone "cashiered" as you put it - seems most of the Generals were all ready retired on their own accord(Batiste). In fact it says he didnt choose to speak out until after he retired. Now, it says Shinseki was retired early, however, he doesnt say it was because he spoke out directly. I guess it depends what you read in to it.

[STONEREMS]

A master of the obvious.
QUOTE]


You made i sound like it was around the corner.

[quote]If congress steers too far to the left there is another election only 23 months away. It could just as easily turn back.

[scfire86]

Well, I quickly read that link via my PDA and I did not see anyone "cashiered" as you put it - seems most of the Generals were all ready retired on their own accord(Batiste). In fact it says he didnt choose to speak out until after he retired. Now, it says Shinseki was retired early, however, he doesnt say it was because he spoke out directly. I guess it depends what you read in to it.
And that would be one way to look at it. Talk to folks in the military. They have a different perspective. Folks who disagreed with Rumsfeld and by extension this administration quickly found themselves on the outside looking in. Retirement is used for many options in the DoD.

Rumsfeld resigned as SecDef. Some would say he was fired.

[BFDNJFF]

And that would be one way to look at it. Talk to folks in the military. They have a different perspective. Folks who disagreed with Rumsfeld and by extension this administration quickly found themselves on the outside looking in. Retirement is used for many options in the DoD.

Rumsfeld resigned as SecDef. Some would say he was fired.

Rumsfeld tried to resign 2 other times and the pres. would not accept his offer. So I think its legit.

[scfire86]

Rumsfeld tried to resign 2 other times and the pres. would not accept his offer. So I think its legit.
How interesting that a week before the election Bush was on record as saying that Rumsfeld would be his SecDef till 2008. The day after he accepts Rumsfeld resignation.

If folks on this board don't understand how the resignation process is used in that echelon of government and business I won't even try to explain to that level of naivete'.

Next thing you're going tell us is the Iraq Study Group has it all wrong and things are really going great over there.

[scfire86]

Yes, we did elect President Bush, and more recent, we just vote in a liberal majority.
Sure, they had a big show of getting a study together, showing how weak we are and how we are loosing in Iraq. But is that main their focus, no. They would much rather go for the easy vote and grant immunity to all those illegals that broke the law to get here.
To quote the immortal Olson Johnson, "Who can argue with that?"

Really, what's your proof? The media, piss ant reservists and guard guys that have to earn their money, and are not at their reserve station, hanging at the nudie bar? Or the stories from real vets or the record numbers going into the Marines?
Mismanaged? Read history. You really think all the conflicts have gone off with out a hitch? Lets review; Argonne Forest, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Operation Market Garden to name a few.
Is it mismanagement or bias reporting?
Mismanagement.

[FireLt1951]

Really, what's your proof? The media, piss ant reservists and guard guys that have to earn their money, and are not at their reserve station, hanging at the nudie bar? Or the stories from real vets or the record numbers going into the Marines?
Mismanaged? Read history. You really think all the conflicts have gone off with out a hitch? Lets review; Argonne Forest, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Operation Market Garden to name a few.
Is it mismanagement or bias reporting?

Anyone who has been in combat understands one thing. Things don't usually go exactly as planned and constant adjustments are needed. Murphy's law has been with the military since the beginning of the nation. Is mismangement part of it? Always. Is bias reporting part of it? Absolutely. Since Viet Nam, the press have been notorious for it's slanted coverage. I know I hated to even see the press anywhere near my unit (especially in a firefight). They seldom ever told the complete truth.

[ThNozzleman]

Really, what's your proof? The media, piss ant reservists and guard guys that have to earn their money, and are not at their reserve station, hanging at the nudie bar?
"Piss ant reservists and guard guys??" These good folks spend a year or more away from their families, fighting and dying in a stupid occupation in order for a few neo-con bastards to fullfill their little empire fantasy and make a few rich people even richer, and they're "piss ants" to you because they disagree with Chimpy McFlightsuit and are brave enough to speak the truth? Because they aren't "real" soldiers?
Weak. :rolleyes:

[scfire86]

Anyone who has been in combat understands one thing. Things don't usually go exactly as planned and constant adjustments are needed. Murphy's law has been with the military since the beginning of the nation. Is mismangement part of it? Always. Is bias reporting part of it? Absolutely. Since Viet Nam, the press have been notorious for it's slanted coverage. I know I hated to even see the press anywhere near my unit (especially in a firefight). They seldom ever told the complete truth.
You mean combat is different from just about any other activity? Very little actually goes as planned. Whether it be a firefight in Falujah or a trip to the grocery store.

However. The DoD did studies back in 1999 predicting the sectarian violence that would occur if Hussein were removed from power. And once again the people who we pay to be experts in the combat arena were ignored. And once the operations began the people who recommended higher troop levels for the post hositility effort were ignored.

Should the press ignore activity that is wrong? Should they ignore poor behavior by American troops? Maybe I have it all wrong. But we invaded the nation with the moral high ground of being liberators. When our troops act (and I admit it is a very small minority) act poorly our high ground mission is severely jeopardized.

[scfire86]

Really, what's your proof? The media, piss ant reservists and guard guys that have to earn their money, and are not at their reserve station, hanging at the nudie bar?
Glad to see you have such a high opinion of those serving in the reserves. Could this be the true conservative view of the military?

How ironic.

And when did the National Guard turn into the International Guard?

[FireLt1951]

You mean combat is different from just about any other activity? Very little actually goes as planned. Whether it be a firefight in Falujah or a trip to the grocery store.

However. The DoD did studies back in 1999 predicting the sectarian violence that would occur if Hussein were removed from power. And once again the people who we pay to be experts in the combat arena were ignored. And once the operations began the people who recommended higher troop levels for the post hositility effort were ignored.

Should the press ignore activity that is wrong? Should they ignore poor behavior by American troops? Maybe I have it all wrong. But we invaded the nation with the moral high ground of being liberators. When our troops act (and I admit it is a very small minority) act poorly our high ground mission is severely jeopardized.

Actually it is different, I don't expect someone who is not a combat veteran to even begin to understand that.

The DoD and the Generals can all get together and you will find that there are always disagreements, even between the General Staff, DoD staffers and anyone else that has an opinion including field officers. If they all agreed, then I'd be worried.

The press has continued to chose the path of covering only the wrongs and very seldon if ever any of the good. This has been going on since Viet Nam and I don't see that ending. I take what the media writes with a grain of salt (I talk to a lot of the Iraq vets at the VFW and I'll choose to believe them first and foremost). If you honestly believe that the military would never have a few bad apples, your living in a dream world. Sometimes war brings out the beast in some and yet brings out the total opposite in others.

Do I agree with the way the war has been fought. In some areas, NO! I would have chosen to be much more ruthless. War is war, it's not a friggin game of playing nice, nice!!!!!! Then again, I'm just an old combat vet.

[FireLt1951]

And when did the National Guard turn into the International Guard?

I know more than a few that served in Viet Nam. They also fought in Korea, WWII and WWI. Apparently it has been an international fighting force for awhile.

[scfire86]

Actually it is different, I don't expect someone who is not a combat veteran to even begin to understand that.
You're right. My point being is that rarely does anything in day to day living go as expected. The biggest difference is in combat that people are killed or injured through dumb luck despite the best planning.

The DoD and the Generals can all get together and you will find that there are always disagreements, even between the General Staff, DoD staffers and anyone else that has an opinion including field officers. If they all agreed, then I'd be worried.
The staff members we entrust to give policy advice to the SecDef and POTUS were ignored. And those individuals at the top made recommendations far different than what Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld determined to be a proper course of action.

The press has continued to chose the path of covering only the wrongs and very seldon if ever any of the good. This has been going on since Viet Nam and I don't see that ending. I take what the media writes with a grain of salt (I talk to a lot of the Iraq vets at the VFW and I'll choose to believe them first and foremost). If you honestly believe that the military would never have a few bad apples, your living in a dream world. Sometimes war brings out the beast in some and yet brings out the total opposite in others.
The media's primary function is to make money. Talking about nice things doesn't do that. And I've met Iraqi vets who tell me things are more screwed up than what is being told to us in the media. It's anecdotal.

Do I agree with the way the war has been fought. In some areas, NO! I would have choosen to be much more ruthless. War is war, it's not a friggin game of playing nice, nice!!!!!! Then again, I'm just an old combat vet.
Nice strategy. Only one flaw. We invaded a country for no reason. They hadn't attacked us. We invaded using the moral high ground of being liberators. Being ruthless as you put it would have only caused increased animosity. Fortunately for the rest of us you aren't in charge of anything important.

[FireLt1951]

Nice strategy. Only one flaw. We invaded a country for no reason. They hadn't attacked us. We invaded using the moral high ground of being liberators. Being ruthless as you put it would have only caused increased animosity. Fortunately for the rest of us you aren't in charge of anything important.

My point is, That if you chose to fight a war, once that choice is made. You don't play Mr. Nice Guy, period!!!!!!! As for being in charge, I was a squad leader (2nd Brigade, 25th Infantry, 2nd Squad-52nd Recon Platoon) and I helped keep a lot of my troopers alive and that's all that counts.

[scfire86]

My point is, That if you chose to fight a war, once that choice is made. You don't play Mr. Nice Guy, period!!!!!!! As for being in charge, I was a squad leader (2nd Brigade, 25th Infantry, 2nd Squad-52nd Recon Platoon) and I helped keep a lot of my troopers alive and that's all that counts.
Great attitude. I'm glad you didn't get higher than squad leader.

[FireLt1951]

Great attitude. I'm glad you didn't get higher than squad leader.

The one thing you aren't even considering in regards to my attitude is that again, WAR is WAR. You don't survive with the nice guy attitude. If you believe you do, you're sadly mistaken and will end up being one of the first casualties PERIOD!!!!!!! I really don't expect you to understand because it's apparent that you have never been in combat.

In addition, NCO's made much better decisions than the 90 day Lt. Butter Bar. NCO's are the back bone of any combat unit and the Company Commanders and Platoon Leaders did listen to them as any smart officer will because they understand that.

By your statement, you must believe that the enemy is going to be Mr. Nice Guy too. Sorry but if you believe that, you're living in a dream world my friend. As far as your opinion on getting higher than squad leader. What do you know about it, if anything!!!!!!!!! When you can state, "been there done that" then I may consider your opinion as far as combat goes.

[WaterbryVTfire]

Trust me when I say, you/we/us does not need socialism. We (I have not) here in Vermont have been electing a socialist for the last 12 or 13 elections. And he has yet to do anything..except say he is for the "common man". Taxes are outrageous, jobs are leaving, health care....

[scfire86]

The one thing you aren't even considering in regards to my attitude is that again, WAR is WAR. You don't survive with the nice guy attitude. If you believe you do, you're sadly mistaken and will end up being one of the first casualties PERIOD!!!!!!! I really don't expect you to understand because it's apparent that you have never been in combat.

In addition, NCO's made much better decisions than the 90 day Lt. Butter Bar. NCO's are the back bone of any combat unit and the Company Commanders and Platoon Leaders did listen to them as any smart officer will because they understand that.

By your statement, you must believe that the enemy is going to be Mr. Nice Guy too. Sorry but if you believe that, you're living in a dream world my friend. As far as your opinion on getting higher than squad leader. What do you know about it, if anything!!!!!!!!! When you can state, "been there done that" then I may consider your opinion as far as combat goes.
I would say you are wrong on all counts. Your job as a member of the military is to destroy the enemy. Your secondary and almost as important mission is to be an emissary of the United States. When an emissary who invades a sovereign nation with the motivation of liberating from a dictator, who then in turn acts as or more boorish as the dictator they are over throwing then the mission becomes moot. Spare us the hearts and flowers on the awfullness of combat. Everyone understands that. Like it or not, the "propaganda mission" that was referred to earlier is a direct result of military actions against an indigenous populace. I feel like I am one of the few who understands why there is such a negative attitude by Iraqis towards our soldiers. If I walked outside and saw armed troops from a foreign nation walking around kicking in doors and rousting me, my family or my neighbors I might feel some resentment after a point in time.

Winston Churchill is credited with saying something to the effect that "in a democracy a knock on the door at 3 am means it's probably the milkman." And right now that ISN'T the case in Iraq. And guess who is doing the knocking?

[SPFDRum]

"Piss ant reservists and guard guys??"These good folks spend a year or more away from their families, fighting and dying in a stupid occupation in order for a few neo-con bastards to fullfill their little empire fantasy and make a few rich people even richer, and they're "piss ants" to you because they disagree with Chimpy McFlightsuit and are brave enough to speak the truth? Because they aren't "real" soldiers?
Yes they do spend time away, part of the job. Be it known that many of those on the Bataan Death march where reservist, and many of those from Minnesota. Through history they have served well. No whinning an crying about it. See, back then these soilders, sailors an airmen understood the commitment, did their duty and moved on.
Now you get a few that sign up for the money, and 2 weeks away from home on a mini vacation, but soon as they have to fulfill their full duties, watch out. How unfair is this, they cry. Get of few of these babies on the news and the news gets a story. All the while the reputation and the outstanding job the other 99.99% are doing gets tarnished and swept under the rug.
As far as National Guardsmen- better bone up on history, they have been deployed overseas since day 1.
Lt as far as speaking anything military to sc, don't, he had never walked a day in a vets shoes, nor could he.

[DaSharkie]

Trust me when I say, you/we/us does not need socialism. We (I have not) here in Vermont have been electing a socialist for the last 12 or 13 elections. And he has yet to do anything..except say he is for the "common man". Taxes are outrageous, jobs are leaving, health care....


And this is what we are headed towards. Excuse when I balk at the thought of government providing everything for everyone.

[scfire86]

Yes they do spend time away, part of the job. Be it known that many of those on the Bataan Death march where reservist, and many of those from Minnesota. Through history they have served well. No whinning an crying about it. See, back then these soilders, sailors an airmen understood the commitment, did their duty and moved on.
Now you get a few that sign up for the money, and 2 weeks away from home on a mini vacation, but soon as they have to fulfill their full duties, watch out. How unfair is this, they cry. Get of few of these babies on the news and the news gets a story. All the while the reputation and the outstanding job the other 99.99% are doing gets tarnished and swept under the rug.
As far as National Guardsmen- better bone up on history, they have been deployed overseas since day 1.
Lt as far as speaking anything military to sc, don't, he had never walked a day in a vets shoes, nor could he.
Yawn!!!

I'll just take attitude of Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA).

When confronted with a bunch of anti war protestors on his front lawn one of the protestors detailed the sacrifices being made by her son, the distinguished fellow from CA stated, "did he volunteer?"

Since no one here seems to be critical of that statement (as compared to Kerry's) that's going to be my attitude from now on.

[FireLt1951]

I would say you are wrong on all counts. Your job as a member of the military is to destroy the enemy. Your secondary and almost as important mission is to be an emissary of the United States. When an emissary who invades a sovereign nation with the motivation of liberating from thing. Let the troops do what they must, that's all they need.a dictator, who then in turn acts as or more boorish as the dictator they are over throwing then the mission becomes moot. Spare us the hearts and flowers on the awfullness of combat. Everyone understands that. Like it or not, the "propaganda mission" that was referred to earlier is a direct result of military actions against an indigenous populace. I feel like I am one of the few who understands why there is such a negative attitude by Iraqis towards our soldiers. If I walked outside and saw armed troops from a foreign nation walking around kicking in doors and rousting me, my family or my neighbors I might feel some resentment after a point in time.

Winston Churchill is credited with saying something to the effect that "in a democracy a knock on the door at 3 am means it's probably the milkman." And right now that ISN'T the case in Iraq. And guess who is doing the knocking?

I never once referenced to, as you put it, hearts, flowers and the awfulness of war and I do take objection to that reference. As I pointed out earlier. Your understanding of combat is lacking, it has nothing to do with the awfulness but the overall need of the operation (to destroy the enemy). They know the areas where the militias are and should be given free reign to attack and destroy that enemy. You'll ask, well aren't civilians going to die? It's almost impossible to achieve zero collateral damage and that’s unfortunate. It wouldn't cost the Iraq population anymore than what the militias are doing to the civilian population now. These enemies should have been dealt with as soon as they raised their heads. If these militias don't mind killing their own fellow Iraqis, then they are the enemy and should be dealt with ruthlessly. Troops tend to have damn good knowledge of whom and where the enemy is located and they should be allowed to do their jobs. If you’re going to fight a war, let the troops do what they need to do and go after the enemy and damn the politics, period. Politics comes after the destruction of the enemy. Trying to be nice doesn't work but only emboldens the enemy. You don't agree and that's alright but I will stick to the statement "If your chose to fight a war, then fight it".

[ThNozzleman]

These enemies should have been dealt with as soon as they raised their heads. If these militias don't mind killing their own fellow Iraqis, then they are the enemy and should be dealt with ruthlessly.
Um...isn't that what big bad Saddam did for years?
If you’re going to fight a war, let the troops do what they need to do and go after the enemy and damn the politics, period.
Right on! Now, if we could just figure out who the enemy actually is, huh? Maybe we could get 'em all to wear lime green shirts that say "enemy" on them in big black letters.
Troops tend to have damn good knowledge of whom and where the enemy is located and they should be allowed to do their jobs.
According to some guys I've talked to, they didn't know jack crap about who was who, or what was coming next.
You don't agree and that's alright but I will stick to the statement "If your chose to fight a war, then fight it".
This is no longer a war...it's an occupation of millions upon millions of people who don't want us there, and who will never give up the fight. There is nothing to be gained from our staying there a minute more, save some rich bastards in the military industrial complex (profiteering SOB's) getting even richer...and to further our influence and control over the oil in the region. You guys were suckered into the neocon fantasy, and thousands have paid with their lives. I hope you're happy.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

So what I am getting from some of you is that you dont think the American people are smart enough to elect who they want to. Some of you are actually AFRAID of Europeans and their "socialist ideas". Well Sirs. I am an AMERICAN. I am proud to say we have the best country in the world and are even smart enough to elect new politicians when the old ones aren't cutting it anymore. I have never seen a group so hell bent on calling our citizens dummies for who we elect into office. Quit being afraid of Europeans. They wont bite you. But lets get real here. Did GWB (a"conservative") reduce the size of the federal government? Did he create less regulation? (maybe when it helped his buddies). What really gets me is that you people think there really is a huge difference in the pols in this country. Hell, at the end of the day Orrin Hatch and Ted Kennedy are FRIENDS. What we as Americans ARE tired of is the constant partisan gridlock that is rife in D.C. The 109th Comgress was one of the laziest. least productive ever. OUR CITIZENS sent a message. Just like we will do in 2008 if things dont change.

[DaSharkie]

Yawn!!!

I'll just take attitude of Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA).

When confronted with a bunch of anti war protestors on his front lawn one of the protestors detailed the sacrifices being made by her son, the distinguished fellow from CA stated, "did he volunteer?"

Since no one here seems to be critical of that statement (as compared to Kerry's) that's going to be my attitude from now on.


Her son did volunteer. So what was the tone of the question?

The question raised is accurate - his lot in life is the one that he chose.

[ThNozzleman]

The question raised is accurate - his lot in life is the one that he chose.
Even though they volunteered for service does not mean they are being sent on a legit mission. Americans (and soldiers) have every right to question our government and demand answers and accountability for the foolish use of our armed forces and billions of our tax dollars towards a neocon fantasy of controlling the Middle East and its resources.

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Now, it says Shinseki was retired early, however, he doesnt say it was because he spoke out directly. I guess it depends what you read in to it.


Should have been retired when he was a colonel. The damage he's done to the Army still hasn't been fully calculated.

BTW why do leftists only care about using military force in situations that don't affect national security -- Somalia, Bosnia, Darfur, etc.?

[scfire86]

Her son did volunteer. So what was the tone of the question?

The question raised is accurate - his lot in life is the one that he chose.

The point is that his statement showed his indifference to the sacrifices of the troops since they volunteered.

I'm going to take the same attitude as both Rohrbacher and Barbara Bush as referenced by this statement:

"But why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day it's going to happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Oh, I mean, it's, not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

If it's okay for conservatives to be indifferent, why should I care?

[scfire86]

Should have been retired when he was a colonel. The damage he's done to the Army still hasn't been fully calculated.
Except a lot of his peers disagree with you. And they're expertise in these matters is far more extensive than yours. Unless you have time on the JCS you want to tell us about.


BTW why do leftists only care about using military force in situations that don't affect national security -- Somalia, Bosnia, Darfur, etc.?
You clearly have no or little grasp of how easily regional conflicts have become international conflicts. I won't bother trying to explain it to you.

[RoughRider]

Yup, we voted for change......

Monday, December 11, 2006
Incoming House intelligence chief botches easy intel quiz
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Rep. Silvestre Reyes of Texas, who incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has tapped to head the Intelligence Committee when the Democrats take over in January, failed a quiz of basic questions about al Qaeda and Hezbollah, two of the key terrorist organizations the intelligence community has focused on since the September 11, 2001 attacks.

When asked by CQ National Security Editor Jeff Stein whether al Qaeda is one or the other of the two major branches of Islam -- Sunni or Shiite -- Reyes answered "they are probably both," then ventured "Predominantly -- probably Shiite."

That is wrong. Al Qaeda was founded by Osama bin Laden as a Sunni organization and views Shiites as heretics.

Reyes could also not answer questions put by Stein about Hezbollah, a Shiite group on the U.S. list of terrorist organizations that is based in Southern Lebanon.

Stein's column about Reyes' answers was published on CQ's Web site Friday evening.

In an interview with CNN, Stein said he was "amazed" by Reyes' lack of what he considers basic information about two of the major terrorists organizations.

"If you're the baseball commissioner and you don't know the difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox, you don't know baseball," Stein said. "You're not going to have the respect of the people you work with."

While Stein said Reyes is "not a stupid guy," his lack of knowledge said it could hamper Reyes' ability to provide effective oversight of the intelligence community, Stein believes.

"If you don't have the basics, how do you effectively question the administration?" he asked. "You don't know who is on first."

Stein said Reyes is not the only member of the House Intelligence Committee that he has interviewed that lacked what he considered basic knowledge about terrorist organizations.

"It kind of disgusts you, because these guys are supposed to be tending your knitting," Stein said. "Most people are rightfully appalled."

Pelosi picked Reyes over fellow Californian Rep. Jane Harman, who had been the Intelligence Committee's ranking member, and Rep. Alcee Hastings of Florida, who had been impeached as a federal judge after being accused of taking a bribe.

Full story from CQ

UPDATE

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, the Texas Democrat tapped to head the House Intelligence Committee, said Monday that despite failing to answer basic questions about al Qaeda's makeup, he is aware of the threat the terrorist group poses.

"The CQ interview covered a wide range of topics other than the selected points published in the story," Reyes said in a statement to CNN. "As a Member of the Intelligence Committee since before 9/11, I'm acutely aware of al Qaeda's desire to harm Americans. The Intelligence Committee will keep its eye on the ball, and focus on the pressing security and intelligence issues facing us."

Reyes drew heat after failing to answer questions about al Qaeda and Hezbollah posed by the Congressional Quarterly

[scfire86]

Yup, we voted for change......

Monday, December 11, 2006
Incoming House intelligence chief botches easy intel quiz

Was the same intel quiz given to the previous GOP House intel chief before he took over? I like how a standard is being applied to only one side of the spectrum.

Prior to his election in 2000, Bush was queried on numerous matters regarding to foreign policy and came nowhere close answering with any sense of accuracy. Yet folks voted for him.....twice.

And given the track record of the previous chair, Reyes could hardly do a worse job.

[RoughRider]

Time will tell but I think we have another Brownie (type) on our hands.

I do hope that i'm wrong.

[DrParasite]

as defined by two cows:
SOCIALISM: You have two cows. State takes one and give it to someone else.

COMMUNISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and gives you milk.

FASCISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and sell you milk.

NAZISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and shoot you.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. State takes both of them, kill one and spill the milk in system of sewage.

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Alternative: A COWSMIC VIEW OF WORLD ORGANIZATION

FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

PURE COMMUNISM: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

SINGAPORE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. The government fines you for keeping two unlicensed animals in an apartment.

MILITARIANISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

AMERICAN DEMOCRACY: The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".

BRITISH DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You feed them sheep's brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors kill you and take the cows.

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

HONG KONG CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping five cows. The milk rights of six cows are transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all seven cows' milk back to the listed company. The annual report says that the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Meanwhile, you kill the two cows because the Feng Shui is bad.

ENVIRONMENTALISM: You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.

FEMINISM: You have two cows. They get married and adopt a veal calf.

TOTALITARIANISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS: You are associated with (the concept of "ownership"is a symbol of the phallo-centric, war-mongering, intolerant past) two differently-aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

COUNTER CULTURE: Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man. You got to have some of this milk. Far out! Awesome!

SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

JAPANESE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You give the milk to gangsters so they don't ask any awkward questions about who you're giving the milk to.

EUROPEAN FEDERALISM: You have two cows which cost too much money to care for because everybody is buying milk imported from some cheap east-European country and would never pay the fortune you'd have to ask for your cows' milk. So you apply for financial aid from the European Union to subsidise your cows and are granted enough subsidies. You then sell your milk at the former elevated price to some government-owned distributor which then dumps your milk onto the market at east-European prices to make Europe competitive. You spend the money you got as a subsidy on two new cows and then go on a demonstration to Brussels complaining that the European farm-policy is going drive you out of your job.

EASTERN EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You sell the milk (diluted with some water) at a high price to the neighbors or to anyone at the open-air market. If somebody asks for receipt, you charge for a two times higher price, so nobody will request an invoice. For concerned families with small babies you claim that the milk is "bio", though you collect the grass for feeding at the side of the highway and you keep the milk in plastic barrels used previously as containers of dangerous chemicals. Later, your neighbor or anybody from town will steal the cows and will buy their meat for a high price, and if you ask for a receipt, you will be charged for a two times higher price.

FINNISH SOCIALISM: You have two cows. Soon you have to kill one of them because in the Netherlands there is an overproduction of milk and the European Union rules say so. When you do so, you realize that it was not necessary, only the system was too slow in getting you the up-to-date news. From the stress, you get an ulcer in your stomach so you go to a doctor. The doctor realizes that this ulcer is a serious one, so you need an urgent treatment. Therefore, you soon get a call to the local hospital. The call's date is for 3 months later, because there is a queue with more urgent cases. Then your ulcer becomes even more serious because you remember that 40 percent of your income is taken for social tax.

[lvwrench]

Allright! You must be taking college courses and this came from one of the professors lectures. You will now be sued for plagerism, jailed for free thinking or shot as a revolutionary. I really loved the breakdown, honest. :p

[ThNozzleman]

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
More like...
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You go broke. You get a job at Walmart as a greeter.

[DaSharkie]

More like...
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You go broke. You get a job at Walmart as a greeter.


Mmmmmmm. At least you are given a chance. Whereas in Socialism the government takes everything it can get its mits on, tells you that it is for the betterment of all. And in the end, no one benefits except for the politicians and beaurocrats who can put their hands in the till to skim for themselves and their friends.

No thanks.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Had a great talk with a 33 year Army Vet. Korea, 2 tours in Vietnam. We decided the time is growing near for a Shia/Sunni cage match. Of course this wont happen but the average American is tired of all their Bull****.

[DaSharkie]

Even though they volunteered for service does not mean they are being sent on a legit mission. Americans (and soldiers) have every right to question our government and demand answers and accountability for the foolish use of our armed forces and billions of our tax dollars towards a neocon fantasy of controlling the Middle East and its resources.


I never said there was no right to question government. I said that the response that the lady received is accurate.

Warriors have been sent on illegitimate missions for decades in our nation.

[ThNozzleman]

Mmmmmmm. At least you are given a chance. Whereas in Socialism the government takes everything it can get its mits on, tells you that it is for the betterment of all. And in the end, no one benefits except for the politicians and beaurocrats who can put their hands in the till to skim for themselves and their friends.
Wait a minute; tell me again how that's different from what we do here??
I never said there was no right to question government. I said that the response that the lady received is accurate.
How convenient...you get to have it both ways.
Warriors have been sent on illegitimate missions for decades in our nation.
Unless you're making a pathetic attempt at an excuse for the actions of our current president, I don't see how this is relevant in the least.

[DaSharkie]

Wait a minute; tell me again how that's different from what we do here??

Not everyone is sucking off of the tit of government or expecting the government to give them everything. Just a good portion of society is doing this.

The individual is responsible for their lot in life. No one else. No other individual, no other group. Not society, not anyone else. You make the choices that you make. You either succeed or you do not - but it is up to you.

How convenient...you get to have it both ways.

No. Just saying that the statement is not inaccurate.

Unless you're making a pathetic attempt at an excuse for the actions of our current president, I don't see how this is relevant in the least.

Just reminding you of history. But then again you have always reminded us of your historical expertise.

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Except a lot of his peers disagree with you. And they're expertise in these matters is far more extensive than yours. Unless you have time on the JCS you want to tell us about.

None I've heard of unless you count the Clark, Zinni cabal.

You clearly have no or little grasp of how easily regional conflicts have become international conflicts. I won't bother trying to explain it to you.

None of those were in that category. They weren't and aren't Sarajevo. Iraq, however, is.

[scfire86]

Not everyone is sucking off of the tit of government or expecting the government to give them everything. Just a good portion of society is doing this.

The individual is responsible for their lot in life. No one else. No other individual, no other group. Not society, not anyone else. You make the choices that you make. You either succeed or you do not - but it is up to you.

Sharkie, I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. But what has happened in reality is that conservative business interests have their hands out grabbing more of the federal pie than any one individual could ever imagine.

[scfire86]

None of those were in that category. They weren't and aren't Sarajevo. Iraq, however, is.
Are you saying that Clark and Zinni don't count? Or are they not real generals?

There have been several retired (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/08/news/prexy.php) generals who have been calling for Rumsfeld to go for some time. Only after the election did it finally occur.

[SPFDRum]

Sharkie, I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. But what has happened in reality is that conservative business interests have their hands out grabbing more of the federal pie than any one individual could ever imagine.
Two very good points, it's an open cookie jar with no accountability for either side really.

[STONEREMS]

Next thing you're going tell us is the Iraq Study Group has it all wrong and things are really going great over there.

Well, come on now, look at that group. Take a close look. Nobody has any military expirence that I know of. But if your gonna sue Iran - Sandra Day is a good person to have on that group.

And 79 suggestions? Good grief....I could have come up with most of those ideas and I didnt even go to Iraq.

[DaSharkie]

Sharkie, I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. But what has happened in reality is that conservative business interests have their hands out grabbing more of the federal pie than any one individual could ever imagine.

They are all the same. Those that support the Dems get their mits out when the Dems are in power too.

The whole process is mucked up. Yet we, as citizens of this nation, stand for it and allow it to happen. We are to blame.

[ThNozzleman]

Just reminding you of history. But then again you have always reminded us of your historical expertise.
Care to point out where I've been wrong? Regardless, your post was simply an irrelevant attempt at deflection...as many of your posts are, it seems.
The individual is responsible for their lot in life. No one else. No other individual, no other group. Not society, not anyone else. You make the choices that you make. You either succeed or you do not - but it is up to you.
Right. Surely, you don't belive that. I bet a lot of the world's population wish they lived in Ice Cream Fairy Tale Land with you.
Not everyone is sucking off of the tit of government or expecting the government to give them everything. Just a good portion of society is doing this.
And nobody does it better than the filthy rich right-wingers.

[ThNozzleman]

The whole process is mucked up. Yet we, as citizens of this nation, stand for it and allow it to happen. We are to blame.
And yet you supported the invasion of a country that was zero threat to us for trumped-up "reasons" resulting in hundreds of thousands dead and maimed, so that the same people that are mucking it up could make a few more bucks selling weapons and oil. Nice.
Hey, guys...just where are them ol' WMD?? :rolleyes:

[RoughRider]

"The individual is responsible for their lot in life. No one else. No other individual, no other group. Not society, not anyone else. You make the choices that you make. You either succeed or you do not - but it is up to you."


"Right. Surely, you don't belive that. I bet a lot of the world's population wish they lived in Ice Cream Fairy Tale Land with you."

Clearly, this exchange should remove any doubt. One of these forum members doesn’t believe in the vision, morals and values that this great country was built on.

Have a great day Comrade Nozzleman.

[WaterbryVTfire]

More like...
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You go broke. You get a job at Walmart as a greeter.

You mean the same Walmart that people here in Vermont fight tooth and nail from coming? The one that will provide even menial JOBS to people? The store that offers inexpensive items to an already "poor" area (and has been for generations)? Or the store that allegedly put the small Mom & Pop & "5 & 10" stores out of business LONG before Walmart announced plans to build in said town?
When will people realize that the local country/corner store went by the way side many years ago, with the creation of Piggly Wiggly, Price Chopper, Food Lion, Sears, JC Penney, etc. No one seems to be against them being built or doing business. The only reason Walmart is a scapegoat is because its "trendy"......

There, to quote others here "Rant Off"

[Stewart46]

Sorry it posted twice!

[Stewart46]

OK, so you actually believe that there are no more WMD's in Iraq and that if we had left Iraq alone all would be well in the world?

If I am correct we have found WMD's just not in the quantity that was expected by the Intel folks. That stuff is still there, it is just buried and will be dug up someday. I just hope it is not some innocent little kid that finds it. I don't think that Iraq was going to be a "zero threat" in time we would have heard from them again. Maybe not the local Iraq citizen shop keeper but it would have been the fun little groups that would be supported by them.

We should have taken care of business when we were there the first time and had the assets in country and not waited.

[scfire86]

OK, so you actually believe that there are no more WMD's in Iraq and that if we had left Iraq alone all would be well in the world?

If I am correct we have found WMD's just not in the quantity that was expected by the Intel folks. That stuff is still there, it is just buried and will be dug up someday.
Close your eyes. Click your heels together and say, "there's no place like home."

Repeat until you awaken.

[scfire86]

Well, come on now, look at that group. Take a close look. Nobody has any military expirence that I know of. But if your gonna sue Iran - Sandra Day is a good person to have on that group.

And 79 suggestions? Good grief....I could have come up with most of those ideas and I didnt even go to Iraq.
What's your point? Because it isn't comprised the way you wanted it to be they should be dismissed out of hand.

Write the president and tell him his buddy Jimmy Baker should just shut up.

[ThNozzleman]

Have a great day Comrade Nozzleman.
Yet another irrelevant comment, as well as a personal attack.
Clearly, this exchange should remove any doubt. One of these forum members doesn’t believe in the vision, morals and values that this great country was built on.
Oh, right...the "vision"...how could I forget? Go back and read the statement made and maybe you'll figure out what you missed the first time...and take some history courses, too.
Click your heels together and say, "there's no place like home."
Heh, heh...no doubt. These guys just crack me up. It would be funny, except for those several hundred thousand maimed and killed during their folly.

[DaSharkie]

Care to point out where I've been wrong? Regardless, your post was simply an irrelevant attempt at deflection...as many of your posts are, it seems.

Just giving my opinion. Don't like it? You will have to deal with it. No deflection, just making my point.

Right. Surely, you don't belive that. I bet a lot of the world's population wish they lived in Ice Cream Fairy Tale Land with you.

Surely I do believe that, otherwise I would not have posted it without including my sarcastic disclaimer.

I grew up poor white trash in affluent communities. I chose to give up the lot in life the rest of family has taken by not working in factories or "menial" jobs. I CHOSE to join the Marine Corps. I CHOSE to attend college while in the Marine Corps that I CHOSE to join. I CHOSE the educational route that I did to work in the careers that I CHOSE to.

All the while I had many people telling me that I would not succeed or that I would not do well in college.

I must not believe that.

You made those same choices. An individual chooses the course that their life will take, regardless of where they live. People choose to overthrow oppressive governments (Romania, U.S.S.R., Fascist Italy), People choose what they will do in their lives.

People alse choose to do nothing in their lives. That is their choice, but they must sleep in the bed that they made.


And nobody does it better than the filthy rich right-wingers.

I could say the same of the "filthy rich left-winger" of the past, present, and likely the future. Of course you would likely deny this.

Someday you might realize that politicians are scum, regardless of their tendencies. And those scum support other scum that leach off of the rest of us who actually want to just live our lives.

[DaSharkie]

And yet you supported the invasion of a country that was zero threat to us for trumped-up "reasons" resulting in hundreds of thousands dead and maimed, so that the same people that are mucking it up could make a few more bucks selling weapons and oil. Nice.
Hey, guys...just where are them ol' WMD?? :rolleyes:

We have had this chat many times. Why beat the dead horse?

Again, you criticize me and my points of view, but not the fact of the statement that I made.

[ThNozzleman]

Just giving my opinion. Don't like it? You will have to deal with it. No deflection, just making my point.
Opinion? No, you made a sweeping statement concerning my knowledge of history. Backing off, are we?
I grew up poor white trash in affluent communities. I chose to give up the lot in life the rest of family has taken by not working in factories or "menial" jobs. I CHOSE to join the Marine Corps. I CHOSE to attend college while in the Marine Corps that I CHOSE to join. I CHOSE the educational route that I did to work in the careers that I CHOSE to.
Man, I'm sure I have a prize somewhere here for you. Good thing you aren't disabled and were able to join the Marines, huh? My point is that if you think everyone in this nation has the same chances and opportunities you are truly delusional.
I could say the same of the "filthy rich left-winger" of the past, present, and likely the future. Of course you would likely deny this.
Man! Another deflection! And a weak one, at that. Surprise, surprise.

[RoughRider]

Yet another irrelevant comment, as well as a personal attack.

Oh, right...the "vision"...how could I forget? Go back and read the statement made and maybe you'll figure out what you missed the first time...and take some history courses, too.

Heh, heh...no doubt. These guys just crack me up. It would be funny, except for those several hundred thousand maimed and killed during their folly.


Yawn......

Responding to your posts reminds me when I burned ants with a magnifying glass in my youth. But alas, I'm bored with you and will return to pursuing my American dream of building next year’s big fat Wall Street bonus. I can't let Goldman Sachs earn it all.

Goodnight Comrade.

[DaSharkie]

Opinion? No, you made a sweeping statement concerning my knowledge of history. Backing off, are we?.

Nope. You see it one way, I see it another. Why waste time when it accomplishes nothing?

Man, I'm sure I have a prize somewhere here for you. Good thing you aren't disabled and were able to join the Marines, huh? My point is that if you think everyone in this nation has the same chances and opportunities you are truly delusional..

Don't need a prize. I made it myself by making the most of my opportunites like many have. No handout needed. Not delusional either.

Tell Stephen Hawking (although British) that being disabled, he never should have progressed. Tell people that I work with and know with Spina Bifida that they cannot provide medical treatment or attend schooling to do so. I could go on, but you will only see it your way, and I will see it my way. Again, why waste each others' time?

Man! Another deflection! And a weak one, at that. Surprise, surprise.

No deflection. I note that you have offered no evidence yourself, so why should I? Both sides have crooks sucking at the tit and trough of the politicians, yet apparently you are only concerned about those Right Wingers doing so. Yet I am accused by you of being delusional.

You say that it is weak......yet it is different when you do it I guess.


Then again, you are the one who calls me racist and an anti-semite. So I must be delusional.

[ThNozzleman]

We have had this chat many times. Why beat the dead horse?
You're right...let's just forget about a few hundred thousand maimed and killed because of the idiot in chief and his neocon fantasy. No way we should just forget the lessons learned (by most Americans, anyway) the next time neocon minions drag our soldiers to fight for profit and power, costing us billions and billions of dollars. No need to "beat" that dead horse, huh? Just look the other way, or live in constant delusion (like the poster that just stated he believed that WMD's were all just buried in the sand, somewhere).
When will guys like you get a clue on how bad you've screwed up and admit it??? How many more bodies? How much more war?
Yeah...let's just move on. Right...keep on dreaming.

[ThNozzleman]

Tell Stephen Hawking (although British) that being disabled, he never should have progressed. Tell people that I work with and know with Spina Bifida that they cannot provide medical treatment or attend schooling to do so. I could go on, but you will only see it your way, and I will see it my way. Again, why waste each others' time?
Right. Every kid in a wheelchair is Stephen Hawking. Just keep coming with the deflections. Get off your high horse and learn some damned empathy, for Pete's sake.
Then again, you are the one who calls me racist and an anti-semite. So I must be delusional.
Hey, it was YOUR Freudian slip, not mine.

[WaterbryVTfire]

idiot in chief .....neocon fantasy... neocon minions...

When will guys like you get a clue on how bad you've screwed up and admit it??? How many more bodies? How much more war?
Yeah...let's just move on. Right...keep on dreaming.

Now there are typical liberal replies. The democrats had the chance in the last election. And the best they could do was John Kerry? I believe the real conspiracy of the last election was the fact that Howard Dean was supposed to be the second coming, and yet he finished out of the race in every caucus. And it won't get better in 2008. While both Hillary and Obama are extremely capable of doing the job of leading this country, it won't happen. Unfortunately, the US is not ready for a woman or African American president.

So please take your zealot/trendy/sheepish/lemming like bashing of the President somewhere else....

[lvwrench]

I have been trying to follow all of this and can't quite decide if the nozzleman is trying to conduct war on humanity or for peace in the world. I wish you would quit fencing with the words and tell everyone just how you really feel. I take it that your political party is the Democrats but you come off like a right wing war bird shooting from the far left. You talk about personal attacks and empathy but you seem to have skipped sensitivity training. Geez, it is what it is and unless you are running for office in DC then just what do you think you can change other than a few like minds? Rant over.

[DaSharkie]

You're right...let's just forget about a few hundred thousand maimed and killed because of the idiot in chief and his neocon fantasy. No way we should just forget the lessons learned (by most Americans, anyway) the next time neocon minions drag our soldiers to fight for profit and power, costing us billions and billions of dollars. No need to "beat" that dead horse, huh? Just look the other way, or live in constant delusion (like the poster that just stated he believed that WMD's were all just buried in the sand, somewhere).
When will guys like you get a clue on how bad you've screwed up and admit it??? How many more bodies? How much more war?
Yeah...let's just move on. Right...keep on dreaming.

See, you read into it again. I just said that talking to you about the issue is waste of time because you have your notions and will nto change them. I never mentioned anything more than that here. So don't read into it.

[DaSharkie]

Right. Every kid in a wheelchair is Stephen Hawking. Just keep coming with the deflections. Get off your high horse and learn some damned empathy, for Pete's sake.

No high horse here pal. I never have said or insinuate that I am better than anyone. You mentioned that if someone is disabled that they couldn't do anything.......I corrected you by pointing out that a person who was disabled was able to continue himself further.

Shall we mention Travis Roy (a Boston College hockey player who was a quad from a collision with a board.)

You want to help them out? Then open your wallet up like millions of citizens around the world do, don't tell me that the government has to do everything for you. You can do it on your own. You do not have to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Like I said before, you don't know me so don't think that I am egotistical, better than anyone, or think that anything is beneath me.

Hey, it was YOUR Freudian slip, not mine.

What slip?

A slip would be something I did not mean to say. I meant to say that "Liberalism is a Mental Disease" and the next thing you know all right wingers are Nazis and racists.

You are way out of line bucko. But I am used to it and call you on it. And as usual you avoid responding to the matter and justifying why you call me a racist and anti-semite. You do not respond to a call for your actions for calling many people on these boards racist and anti-semitic.

[DaSharkie]

I have been trying to follow all of this and can't quite decide if the nozzleman is trying to conduct war on humanity or for peace in the world. I wish you would quit fencing with the words and tell everyone just how you really feel. I take it that your political party is the Democrats but you come off like a right wing war bird shooting from the far left. You talk about personal attacks and empathy but you seem to have skipped sensitivity training. Geez, it is what it is and unless you are running for office in DC then just what do you think you can change other than a few like minds? Rant over.

Nozz can attack anyone he wants, but never defends himself for his own personal attacks. He has done this for a very long time. He will likely continue to do so for a long time.

As an example, I note that three times (this makes four) I have asked him to explain why he calls me a racist and a Nazi for a statement that I made that had nothing to do with either.

We await the answer, alas I will be totally gray before I get one. If I ever do.

But don't you dare ever criticize him. That would be a no-no.

[STONEREMS]

And yet you supported the invasion of a country that was zero threat to us for trumped-up "reasons" resulting in hundreds of thousands dead and maimed, so that the same people that are mucking it up could make a few more bucks selling weapons and oil. Nice.
Hey, guys...just where are them ol' WMD?? :rolleyes:

Ohhh ya that ol war for oil story ........give it up.

Just as we mourn for the victims of Saddam’s regime, we also grieve for the Americans and Iraqis who were killed or injured during the liberation or by terrorists determined to hold us back. We will honor those who have sacrificed for our freedom by building a new Iraq that lives in peace with the nations of the world, without fear of war, torture chambers or terrorism.

When freedom is born where it has never existed, the desire of all people to live in peace and dignity will only grow. With America’s support, we know that some day soon Iraqi children will dare to dream the same dreams as American children.

As Iraqis assume full sovereignty over our nation, we extend our hands in friendship and gratitude to the American people. The sacrifices your sons and daughters made for our liberation will never be forgotten. Without those brave young men and women, this day might never have come.

- From an open letter to America from many Iraqi groups.
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/usr_doc/Open_Letter2.pdf

-----------------------------

I want to bow in front of the parents of those who have lost their beloved one, and I want to tell them that I know it is difficult and tough, but it is worth it, and they should be proud of their daughters and sons killed in the war because they have liberated a country, liberated 27 million people, and that country is the country of father Abraham, and Daniel of Babylon, and Jonah of Nineveh. - Iraqian Georges Sada

[ThNozzleman]

What slip?
You really don't know, do you? That makes it all the better. Maybe I'll go back and find it for you, sometime. But even if I did, you'd just explain it away in one of your infamous deflection maneuvers, so what's the point?
Nozz can attack anyone he wants, but never defends himself for his own personal attacks. He has done this for a very long time. He will likely continue to do so for a long time.

Heh...don't make me laugh. I don't think there's any one member on these forums that's been attacked more than me. I quit caring a long time ago.
I have been trying to follow all of this and can't quite decide if the nozzleman is trying to conduct war on humanity or for peace in the world. I wish you would quit fencing with the words and tell everyone just how you really feel. I take it that your political party is the Democrats but you come off like a right wing war bird shooting from the far left. You talk about personal attacks and empathy but you seem to have skipped sensitivity training.
I've been against this stupid war from the start, and I've been quite vocal about it. It has earned me the wrath of many forum members who berated me endlessly in emotional diatribes on almost a daily basis, sometimes. I do not "fence" words. While many here love to believe I'm some kind of leftist wimp, nothing could be farther from the truth. I have no sensitivity for warmongers who march our troops off to die for lies. I find it pathetic that many of them still cling to the belief that this war was somehow needed or justified. Thankfully, most of them have sulked away in light of the truth about this war and the neocon bastards who started it.
Nozz can attack anyone he wants, but never defends himself for his own personal attacks. He has done this for a very long time. He will likely continue to do so for a long time.

Heh...nice try. My "attacks" are no more personal than any others on these forums, and far less so than many. And you're right; so long as there are guys like you propping up warmongering fools, I will be here to "attack."
Ohhh ya that ol war for oil story ........give it up.

Oh, that's right; it was to save us all from the evil Iraq and it's huge stockpiles of WMD's that threatened the free world. What a hoot you are. Man, I hope you guys are a little smarter the next time our government tries to get us involved in a mess like this. But, I'd say you'll just beat the ol' drums of war and march our people right back into quagmire and death, just because you like waving a flag and feeling more important than the rest of the world. This has nothing to do with left or right, but with a hell of a lot of people dying for nothing more than power and profit...and it's disgusting.

[TillerMan25]

Man, I figured the Nozz would have moved to Europe by now.

Just a little history note.....

Nozz didn't even know the geographical location of Iraq until he spouted his ignorant intolerant views on here and was corrected by many on these boards. See, with Nozz, he is tolerant of only his own views and attacks others who don't agree with him....he has no substance and is merely a troll. If you put him on your ignore list, he will be posting to himself eventually...

BTW Nozz, did you ever check that map to see if Iraq was "right next to" Russia yet? I wonder if those Chinese Rifles that Iraq obtained because they were "right next to" Russia are still getting the job done....god, if I only had no life, I would love to take a ride to Jefferson City TN. one day...

Athiest, Socialist, Leftist Moron.......that sums him up perfectly...why don't you and Cindy Sheehan go cry in your Latte's together...Tree-hugging freak.

Oh yeah, Merrty Christmas and GOD BLESS you! Even you Comrade Miller

[scfire86]

Athiest, Socialist, Leftist Moron.......that sums him up perfectly...why don't you and Cindy Sheehan go cry in your Latte's together...Tree-hugging freak.

Oh yeah, Merrty Christmas and GOD BLESS you! Even you Comrade Miller

You must be one of them compassionate conservative types.

[ThNozzleman]

BTW Nozz, did you ever check that map to see if Iraq was "right next to" Russia yet? I wonder if those Chinese Rifles that Iraq obtained because they were "right next to" Russia are still getting the job done....god, if I only had no life, I would love to take a ride to Jefferson City TN. one day...
I stated they were next to the former USSR. Nice try at misleading people, though.
Athiest, Socialist, Leftist Moron.......that sums him up perfectly...why don't you and Cindy Sheehan go cry in your Latte's together...Tree-hugging freak.
Weak. :rolleyes:

[ThNozzleman]

god, if I only had no life, I would love to take a ride to Jefferson City TN. one day...
Oh, no...I don't think so. Not even you are that stupid.

[ThNozzleman]

You must be one of them compassionate conservative types.
Heh...anyone who quotes Michael Weiner in his signature is certainly a type of something, that's for sure. :p

[lvwrench]

Without really saying what his party affiliations are or waht groups he is supportive of I might easily guess but that really does not matter. The Nozz is what the Nozz is and I believe that his feelings and thoughts about certain political and other aspects are very deep and unchangeable. Therefore I will agree to disagree with him and wish him a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year and leave it at that if he will.

[ThNozzleman]

Without really saying what his party affiliations are or waht groups he is supportive of I might easily guess but that really does not matter. The Nozz is what the Nozz is and I believe that his feelings and thoughts about certain political and other aspects are very deep and unchangeable. Therefore I will agree to disagree with him and wish him a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year and leave it at that if he will.
You are quite right...and happy holidays to you, as well.