UHF or VHF

[Firefighter2160]

I thought it might be cool to see how many use what. UHF or VHF

[k3twpfire]

We use 800mhz

[lilyogi]

We use 800 mhz but also use VHF for mutual aid to Rock Island

[jboczek]

VHF for us.

[LuckyThirteen]

Sumter County uses both a trunked UHF and VHF system. Obvious reason is all the pagers run on VHF.

[Pelican631]

The fact that we have to have a poll like this in Illinois drives me nuts :rolleyes:

Why can't we all get on the same page and use the same frequency band? Makes mutual aid and interoperability soooo much easier. I guess MABAS is trying to drive that with the VHF fireground freqs, but it's still a mess in this state compared to others where everyone is in the same band.

Andy

[nmfire]

There isn't enough spectrum even if people pulled their heads out of their asses to do something like that.

[Pelican631]

That may be true in some areas of the country...I guess I'm "spectrum spoiled" being from a relatively unpopulated area. Nearly all of WI and MI are (were) on VHF for both police and fire, except for some of the metro areas. That's changing in MI now with the statewide 800 system. It makes sense for metro areas to do their own thing in some cases since they have enough resources that they rarely need mutual aid. In the sticks, however, when even a house fire requires mutual aid, it only makes sense to be on the same band as your neighbors. Nationwide interop will always be a problem unless the government mandates something (like moving us all to 700...wouldn't that be interesting?), which they probably won't. The V/U/ITAC channels are a start I guess.

Andy

[LVFD301]

There isn't enough spectrum even if people pulled their heads out of their asses to do something like that.


Perhaps our friend down in Florida has a plan - he is all knowing about
any kind of communications.....

Seriously though - with all the talk about the 700 mhz band,
communications bridges, ITAC channels, Multiple tin cans with
string, NOTHING WILL WORK, until we change the mindsets of the
users.

I say it again - NO HARDWARE WILL SOLVE INTEROPERABILITY, until, as
you say, people pull their heads out, and work together to solve the
problem.

Ah, for the good old days. Everyone in the state (almost) was on
37.26. Berry Hill PD could talk just about anywhere in the state. Had
a car on a prisoner transport to Nashville, and need to talk to him? Ask
Berry Hill to relay.

Need to talk to Highway Patrol? Call them on your channel, they will
hear on the scanner and answer you their channel, that you hear on
your scanner.

Interoperability can be easy....

[LVFD301]

. It makes sense for metro areas to do their own thing in some cases since they have enough resources that they rarely need mutual aid. In the sticks,
Andy


I got to disagree.

Even the metro areas, with all the resources in the world, need to maintain
an interoperability solution. If they have an aw crap situation, like 9/11,
OKC bombing, etc, you can bet they will be using outside resources.

Whether that solution be a patch channel, a tactical communications bridge,
multiple radios in staff vehicles, there needs to be something. The best
solution is to have compatable radios. All those other hardware solutions
work, to a fashion, but not as well as a well thought out bandplan.

All of those solutions require TRAINING, recurring training. Also, more training.

When Nashville TN went UHF, the district chiefs had to keep VHF radios in their vehicles. No equipment would go out on mutual aid without a district chief along, so they had interoperability. One solution.

[trainer]

Let me try to explain. For you interlopers you don't have our system. Has anyone seen the ILEAS comm trucks?, there are 12 in the state. How about the comm trailers? they are state of the art, over $400,000 worth of comm equipment, and there are to be 9 in the state. Now granted these are for your OH-SHEET call, but we got um, and a MABAS call brings um. Now lets talk dept to dept aid or a box alarm, everyone in the state should have gotten at least 1 radio set up with 6 feq's, if you didn't that's your fault, maybe even a starcomm, but that's an argument for a different day. Our main feq is 154.190 and sometimes it sucks, part of the problem is radios are cheaper than pagers, just remember not everyone needs a radio. Training is the key, radio protocal is a must.

[Pelican631]

Yep I've seen the comm trucks. But like everyone has said, they're useless without preplanning and training. How many small departments in Illinois still have 1970's 16 channel radios in their rigs? A lot! So the super comm van pulls into town and sets up tactical nets on interop channels, which the local FDs don't have in their rigs. What good does that do? Granted, every department should have ONE radio now, but that's just one. I'm not trying to slam the comm trucks...they're a good resource to have. I'm just saying that interoperability is something that needs to be planned for ahead of time at the local level, and this is rarely done because so few people really understand all of the nuances of radio communications. What we need is training, training, training. I have yet to see a fire school or other formal training class on radio communications. They touch on it in some NIMs stuff, but not on any of the technical issues. I'd love to see some kind of class developed...Radios 101 for first responders...if anyone wants to collaborate on something like that let me know.

Andy

[nmfire]

I feel all of your pain. I get nothing but grief from people about how many channels we have to have programmed into our portable radios now. When I took over communications about 3 years ago, our portable radios were VHF and had two channels. It was a truck repeater and talk-around so it wasn't even two seperate frequencies. There was one apparatus mobile low band radio and it had I think 5 channels.

Now, in 2006, we have switched to UHF portables and I've filled up 32 channels. The apparatus have matching UHF mobile radios. The apparatus low band radios are up to 15 channels now. And none of these channels are pointless ones that I put in just because I'm a radio nerd. They are all neccesary channels for our surrounding towns we respond to for mutual aid.

Why is this such a problem for people? For 75 years, we never had more than two radio channels for us and mutual aid. On top of that,for those 75 years, officers were the only ones who would carry radios at an incident. So the general rank and file never had to care about the radio and the officers were used to not having to care too much. There was never training in communications other than reviewing what the codes mean. Well those days are over.

Our neighboring town we respond to the most now has two repeaters with talk-around and two tac channels. All are required. Our other neighboring towns have all been making upgrades with at least one repeater with talk-around or a tac channel. Even the other department in our own town (yes, we have two) is using a seperate frequency for fireground now. We can't NOT have these channels in our radios now so people are just going to have to learn to live with it. There are now portable radios for every position on the apparatus. Every interior firefighter is expected to have a radio on them. It also means the officers are going to have to give in and allow proper in-depth training to take place. I offer all the time but nobody wants to let me do it. I have to be given a logical reason why. Best I can figure is "100 years of tradition, uninhibited by progress."

[trainer]

I'll agree about the comm truck, it's a cop thing. On the comm trailer there are enough radios for everyone. And it looks to me like the poor IC going to need about 5 radios. I like the idea of a class, but somehow I feel if I have one nobody will come, although I may in aug at our RTC. Now you got me thinking, what about a MABAS call and just to work on radio protocal....hummmm, I'll work on that.

[Pelican631]

They've done something like that down here. I think they called it a MABAS "non-moving" drill or something like that. Everyone gets toned out and then just reports in on the radio, but no one rolls equipment (so you don't get any training in on-scene communications, which is also needed). I think it was intended to try to get dispatchers used to IFERN alerting and get the departments involved used to calling in to MABAS dispatch on IFERN instead of their local dispatch channel. I have yet to hear an actual MABAS box alarm called out in this area...everyone is still doing mutual aid the old way, which seems to work just fine. It would seem that they're having a tough time convincing anyone that the MABAS way of doing things is any better than just doing it like it's always been done.

Andy

[trainer]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. However MABAS does solve some liability problems that we had with the old mutual aid agrements, and it also put an end to freelancing, you'll know what and how many are coming.To me MABAS is for the big one, for us outside the metro area, thats where it will work the best. It's nothing more than a prefire plan. As far as a class I'm thinking more like MABAS and a mass disaster, tornado or somthing. How to start the process and what to except. Set up an EOC,where and how to set up a staging area, manage incoming resources, commutations. Would be good for fire, police, city council and Mayor, city workers. What do you think, would you come?

[Pelican631]

What you're describing sounds like NIMS training that's already widely available. I was thinking of something more specific to radios. Try to keep it simple like what does VHF, UHF, 800 MHz mean. Explain trunking systems versus conventional systems, digital versus analog. PL & DPL tones, two-tone paging, repeaters, duplex vs. simplex, etc. Radio basics. Any thoughts?

Andy

[nmfire]

Just do yourself one favor... if it doesn't apply to them, don't teach it. For example, there is no trunking anything anywhere near here so I have no intention of teaching people what it is and how it works.

[Pelican631]

Good tip. Unfortunately, we've got it all here. From low band VHF to the statewide P25 700/800 system, and everything in between.

Andy

[trainer]

Ya your right it does sound like NIMS, but I would like more hands on, maybe a mock disaster. Galesburg hit by tornado, what to do. Then run a step by step process on what should be done. I could get a lot more detailed but I don't have the time. As far as a radio class, and maybe I could make it happen, but I guarantee that the numbers will not meet the min required to hold a class, to much tecno BS for the average Joe firefighter. I'm getting way sidetracked in this thread, so I'll end by saying this, If you only got 1 radio that,s compatable to responding departments then you need to figure out how to make that work. You'll have to change how you do things in that situation.

[ChiefReason]

Unless it is legislated and communication companies continue to offer junk at a cheaper price to departments who don't have an operating budget, getting everyone on the same page isn't going to happen.
And that ONE radio every department is suppose to get: I take it the incident commander will have a radio stuck in each ear.
You know; it almost sounds like the trailers are going to be the carrot on a stick.
CR

[jboczek]

The radio problems could be helped out if we could all afford Starcomm. We can't so we'll stay with VHF. If the cops, EMS and fire would all do Starcomm it would work. I think the system is designed to take care of the whole state. If I'm wrong, correct me.
NMFIRE, I wish our dispatchers knew all the radio stuff, then they may have more of a clue to what they're doing. All they know is they push a button, it beeps and they talk, sometimes to the right department, sometimes to the wrong one. If they actually knew what they were working with it could help.

[trainer]

How many of you took the starcom? we didn't and I think we'll regreat it. The more I hear the more it sounds like the system is getting cheaper. With what looks like our only answer, right now, to interoperabilty(did I spell that right?) I got to think that ITTF may fund at least some of the operation cost.

[jboczek]

We didn't take it either, but not by my choice. Our illustrious trustees thought it would just be sitting collecting dust and it wasn't necessary. They told me I couldn't have it.
You know, it would probably sit there collecting dust - unless we needed it.

Kind of along that line, EMNet is coming. We will probably be one of the last depts. to get it but I can't wait.

[trainer]

EMnet, I got some questions about that. First off this is the computer give-a-way from OSFM right. Suppose to be a direct link to them? Will we have to abandon our reporting system to use theirs?Haven't herd much about this program in some time. Last time I talked to OSFM, I tried to set up a class at our fire school for this program, they thought it was a good idea but never got back to me. Told me they were going out to the dept's that didn't have computers first. I thought the AFG took care of most of them.

[efd824]

We did take the starcom radio, so far the only traffic i have heard was some testing from Springfield and a cop from Evanston telling his buddy the pizza had been delievered to the station. It does get a bit much though when we are out on a M/A or weather watch when all 4 radios in our station are going nuts at one time, wanna turn them all off and go home :p

[RioFireChief]

We use VHF here.

[ChiefReason]

We use VHF here.
Funny: I would have guessed you for FM...
Frequency 92.7! :D
Man; I crack myself up.
CR

[trainer]

Chris! always nice to see a new poster. And yes CR, that was funny

[nmfire]

It is all FM!! The only ones still using AM in this part of the spectrum besides the AM broadcast stations are aircraft ham, and CB radios.

[efd824]

Do you think Rio changed there call letters to WLSR?, NM we are just kidding with the Rio chief because he is a radio dj on a local rock station, Chris play some more disturbed for me cause it is a long ride to Galva in the ambulance and the Wataga water just isn't fun to look at anymore

[nmfire]

Oh. Cool. Rock on!

[ChiefReason]

Do you think Rio changed there call letters to WLSR?, NM we are just kidding with the Rio chief because he is a radio dj on a local rock station, Chris play some more disturbed for me cause it is a long ride to Galva in the ambulance and the Wataga water just isn't fun to look at anymore
efd:
Did you know that I was born and raised in Galva?
Spooky!
CR

[efd824]

Yeah i remember that from the thread last year about the ambulance, hey congrats on teh new arrival (wrong thread), My wife and i just had our little guy on Tues. @ SFMC, i hope being an election day baby he doesn't become a politician, Mikey would be trying to sway his votes with a cigar and miller lite :D

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Congratulations ! Tell Mama I said hello and give her my best. Cigar? Beer? Me? No way. :p

[efd824]

Well Mikey you could count on support anyway cause if he wasn't an IAFF boy myself and his (uncles) would be kicking his tiny little behind

[ChiefReason]

Mikey:
If you have a chance to get your hands on the Camacho Liberty limited edition, do it.
One of the top five...ever.
CR

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Art I will try that. Maybe when summer rolls around, the proud new parents can break away for a weekend of Chicago fun. PS. Give the new mother my heartiest of Veterans Day wishes and thanks for her service to our nation !

[lilyogi]

Congrats on the new addition efd.

[trainer]

I got an election day baby, if you call 24 a baby. Going up to see her today, take her to lunch for her birthday(nov 8). Mikey, I'll wave as I head downtown. Congrats to Elmwood, and no she ain't a politician...yet