Wire Entrapment due to Helmet Design

[RFRDxplorer]

The tests performed in this powerpoint were done using Ben2Plus helmets, but can affect any traditional style helmet.

Thank you to FirefighterCloseCalls.com for the presentation.

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/ppt/ProblemswithTraditionalStyleHe lmets.ppt

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

That right there is the reason I carry the only hand tool that I do in my turnout gear-a pair of diagonal cutters.

[dmleblanc]

...or you could just use a Metro style helmet and avoid the problem altogether......

[RFRDxplorer]

...or you could just use a Metro style helmet and avoid the problem altogether......


Touche


BTW, I am issued a Cairns 660c metro.

[Res343cue]

...or you could just use a Metro style helmet and avoid the problem altogether......

Oh Jesus, you just have to invite Bou into the mix.

Real firefighters wear traditional. :D

[Dalmatian190]

If you're truly concerned about theoretical dangers of fire helmet designs, you wouldn't wear the Metro either.

Go with a European / Jet style helmet.

While looking to improve features (hey, I like the zipper & velcro better than snaps...and how many here know originally the snaps faced "out" since it was faster to don the coat that way? Then they where turned "in" since it was found they caught to often) is good...

How many firefighters have actually gotten seriously entrapped by wires like the confidence wire courses have?

I know first hand what the spaghetti above a dropped ceiling can look like...heck, I used to make spaghetti...and now if I was to catch a contractor doing that they'd have an extended afternoon education session with me, a fish tape, wire ties, and a label maker :)

But is this a scenario we're really seeing that often? Seems the places most prone to a major problem are offices with dropped ceilings that would have a bunch of computer and telephone cables run half-ass...not buildings known for a lot of fire problems.

I think it's a great idea for a confidence course...just make sure it's not something we're spending time worrying about non existent problems when their are basics that are missed and actually do kill firefighters.

==========
And one last point, if you're actually in "I've got to leave now" trouble, don't worry about the wire cutters.

Pop the chin strap and leave the helmet. Of course, the air pack frame is probably going to be more likely to snag a wire :)

[NYSmokey]

Before I read that the presentation was from a reputable source, I thought it was a marketing ploy by a salad bowl salesman! :D

[RFRDxplorer]

Before I read that the presentation was from a reputable source, I thought it was a marketing ploy by a salad bowl salesman! :D


No salesman here, just an explorer surfin the net while taking a break from homework.

I'd like a traditonal, but I work with what I get.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

If you're truly concerned about theoretical dangers of fire helmet designs, you wouldn't wear the Metro either.

Go with a European / Jet style helmet.

While looking to improve features (hey, I like the zipper & velcro better than snaps...and how many here know originally the snaps faced "out" since it was faster to don the coat that way? Then they where turned "in" since it was found they caught to often) is good...

How many firefighters have actually gotten seriously entrapped by wires like the confidence wire courses have?

I know first hand what the spaghetti above a dropped ceiling can look like...heck, I used to make spaghetti...and now if I was to catch a contractor doing that they'd have an extended afternoon education session with me, a fish tape, wire ties, and a label maker :)

But is this a scenario we're really seeing that often? Seems the places most prone to a major problem are offices with dropped ceilings that would have a bunch of computer and telephone cables run half-ass...not buildings known for a lot of fire problems.

I think it's a great idea for a confidence course...just make sure it's not something we're spending time worrying about non existent problems when their are basics that are missed and actually do kill firefighters.

==========
And one last point, if you're actually in "I've got to leave now" trouble, don't worry about the wire cutters.

Pop the chin strap and leave the helmet. Of course, the air pack frame is probably going to be more likely to snag a wire :)



I'll second that entire reply. The only reason the wire cutters would come out would be in a non-lifethreating entaglement. Otherwise, I'm going to do what I've got to do to get my butt undone.

[RFDACM]

:confused: Give me a break!! Is Morning Pride going to make an SCBA adapter to ensure that once your Spaceballs helmet slips past the wire that it doesn't catch up between your bottle and harness? :eek:

I'm picturing a bunch of Sally's sittinging around in easy chairs quivering like whipped dogs hope the Klaxon doesn't go off!!! :D

Is the scene safe? Is the scene safe? BSI, BSI! Universal Precautions! Oh My!!

[hwoods]

I had the Pleasure of having my helment pulled off, along with a few other unkind things, when I got tangled in wire during a Fire in a AMTRAK Locomotive. Doo Doo happens, and you'd better be ready for it. :eek:

[VinnieB]

:confused: Give me a break!! Is Morning Pride going to make an SCBA adapter to ensure that once your Spaceballs helmet slips past the wire that it doesn't catch up between your bottle and harness? :eek:

I'm picturing a bunch of Sally's sittinging around in easy chairs quivering like whipped dogs hope the Klaxon doesn't go off!!! :D

Is the scene safe? Is the scene safe? BSI, BSI! Universal Precautions! Oh My!!


LOL.....that's some funny stuff right there!

[Dalmatian190]

I wasn't really thinking of industrial occupancies...still, I wonder how many / what is out there that presents these entrapment hazards...

I would think in industrial stuff, usually you get the wires and such nicely secured in conduit or armored.

[engineeremtp]

Just had a ff self rescue course last week and we went through the wire entrapment part of the course learning alot. I do have a Ben II and have heard of the problems, but believe me if someone claims that this helmet issue is a big problem- it is not. All of the participants that got hung up in the wiring were working it out of their scba harness and bottle. I have to put a lot of pressure on the top of my shield to get it to push out of the 'mouth' so to speak of the eagle. And even if this did happen there is no way for it to get caught in there- though it will get hooked- I agree.

[cozmosis]

But is this a scenario we're really seeing that often? Seems the places most prone to a major problem are offices with dropped ceilings that would have a bunch of computer and telephone cables run half-ass...not buildings known for a lot of fire problems.

Instead of phone cables and computer wires, I see a bunch of wire left after the plastic ductwork melts off its wire skeleton. This is has personally caused me problems in both commercial and residential occupancies.

When we first ordered traditional style helmets, the eagle attachment was was tall and I snagged it on a number of wires at a resturant job. Since then, we've replaced it with a lower profile eagle attachment that doesn't cause as many problems. However, the wire cutters are still an important tool I always keep with me.

[RFDACM]

I wasn't really thinking of industrial occupancies...still, I wonder how many / what is out there that presents these entrapment hazards...

I would think in industrial stuff, usually you get the wires and such nicely secured in conduit or armored.

As far a wire entanglement hazards go: almost all newer commercial properties with drop ceiling run data, telephone, and other cables/wires along halls and room ceilings. Our station ceiling area is a nightmare with wires that are loose enough that they would create quite a hazard. Some of the office complex data raceways are ridiculaous hundreds of miles of cable run throughout the ceilings. So the hazards are there.

I just fail to see the helmet issue as anything overly concerning in the grand scheme of things. Sure do what you can to protect yourself but the wire that passes your head can and will easily get caught in your pack and its very difficult to free this compared to the helmet that is above and in front of your face. As stated above, I carry a pair of wire cutters, a leatherman, and a knife in case of an entanglement I cannot "swim" out of. Hopefully that day will never come!

[cdemarse]

Hell if you really wanted to you could twist the data to show that turtle shell helmets cause wire entrapment. Data can me manipulated to show whatever the author wants.

[FFFRED]

Random thoughts.

This is an important issue. Just because you don't go to fires in offices or commerical occupancies everyday...doesn't mean you won't be tangled and entraped and killed. I brought this issue up before over a year ago with photos and I was surprised it didn't generate more concern and postings as it did.

Also many popular methods of installing air ducts in PDs and apartments involve flexible tubing which can burn away leaving a coil of wire waiting to snag you at a job. Go visit a contruction site during drill period...I'll bet you will see it being installed.

I know this issue has been brought up by some of our chiefs and since we are probably one of the largest purchasers of this low bid garbage helmet...Total fire group probably saw a problem with future contracts and was pressured into finding a solution for this problem that won't go away.

I've seen guys get snagged...during overhaul or less serious times...but should the same occur during a fire...you are in a bad place without a doubt.

Many guys have either purposely removed the eagle or it removed itself by way of the poorly designed and secured acorn capped nuts and bolts. Having to purposely modify a helmet, grind off or remove components to maintain safe operations is absurd and illogical.

The helmet is at best a cheap imitation of the N5A and has in many opinions inluding mine (which at best is worth .000004 cents USD :D ) had a bad showing in urban FDs. I know a number of guys with 2-4 years who either are on or need a second replacement helmet...at this rate my tax dollars are being thrown down the drain at 3-5 times what they would have been if we had issued the N5A. (this doesn't even take into account the replacement and repair in those 2-4 years to the suspension, liner and cheap immitation bourkes.)

Prior to the introduction of the MP BFII there was no problem encountered or docutmented by our safety battalion in regards to the N5A finial and front peice snagging hanging debris.

FTM-PTB

Other issues: Many of the front peices out there today arent' made from the same high quality materials we were formerly accustomed to. I've seen members of my company have the height shrink about 1/2 to 3/4 of an INCH! Regardless of what they do to the support the front still shrinks leaving a snag hazard. No good in my opinion.

[ehs7554]

I don't have any experience with the BenII ,but for all the Cairns guys, I have seen guys crimp down the "beak" of their front holders either at a fire or when they get a new lid. this seems to help prevent the leather front form dislodging. this way you should not have a problem with the wires. I do agree with FFRED, newer leather fronts do not seem to hold up as well. I had a new one from cairns that shrinked up after only a couple of fires.

[Rescue21D]

I've only bought/used helmet front pieces from Paul Conway Shields. No, I don't work for them either. :rolleyes: Haven't had one shrink in the 16+ years that I have had one. :D

[FFFRED]

It might be the type of front purchased.

Personally I've never had problems with the Cairns fronts...the old fronts have held quite well.

The new ones issued today(whom I thought was Paul Conway) shrink often and don't hold together well. This is only after a few years use that I've seen on a number of guys in my house and Battalion.

FTM-PTB

[SteveDude]

I'll argue against the POS European Helmets we have.....

Sure, they are unlikely to snag on anything...but still we nearly lost 2 Guys at a large Commercial High Rise Fire in Central London in 2003. The wires came down on one of the fire floors and two Firefighters got well and truly entangled...by their arms, by their legs, their BA sets.... No problem with the helmets, but seeing as we aren't made like smooth balls then we will always have 4 limbs, SCBA, Flashlights, Radios..etc...etc... to get caught up on let alone a simple eagle.

Stay with traditional...I wish we had!!!

[MemphisE34a]

Random thoughts.
Other issues: Many of the front peices out there today arent' made from the same high quality materials we were formerly accustomed to. I've seen members of my company have the height shrink about 1/2 to 3/4 of an INCH! Regardless of what they do to the support the front still shrinks leaving a snag hazard. No good in my opinion.

Fred,

This isn't a side issue. This is the entire issue. The overall, basic design of the eagles has not changed over the years. Nor does it vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. The beak of the eagle holds the top of the front.

When the front shrinks it allows a void space in between the top of the front and the beak which allows wire to get hooked on the eagle.

There is an amazing solution to this. Instead of everyone crying about it, take the amount of time it takes you to log on and bitch in the firehouse forms and drill 2 new holes in your front that will allow it to fit snugly back into the beak of the eagle.

Problem solved. Amazing.

[BKDRAFT]

My shield fits so snug in my N6A I cannot imagine that happening. I haven't ever seen it happen or heard if it happening to any FF I know. However anything is possible and it is good to see the actual data. If mine does begin to leave a void I will do what the LT. suggested above.

[Sgnl50]

This problem seems to only present itself with the Morning Pride Ben II. The eagle is solid opposed to the Cairns front holders which are hollow. Some shield makers are now making shields with a notch cut to better fit the Ben II.

As far as quality shields go. I recommend Sam Brown (www.sambrownshields.com) He makes a high quality product.

Stay Well, Stay Safe
Matt
Signal 50 Industries
www.signal50.com

[JHR1985]

You know... if you took the eagle off and replaced it with the Beaver... I think everything would be A-okay:D