Arson or not? You call it

[saxedspc]

We had a 1st alarm last night. Got there and it was a 3 story brick home. The front room of the 1st floor's couch was on fire, the entire back room of the second floor was overlapping out the windows and involving the roof, and the middle room of the 3rd floor was starting to roll. We knocked it down and waited for FIU. I got picked to help them by setting up lights and overhauling. The was no duct-work between these floors/rooms to aid in extension, but our arson guys said it was accidental. It looked to me like someone torched the couches in the first two floors and then it spread up the stairwell to the 3rd floor. Oh, yeah, the home owner was standing out front with her rental insurance paperwork in her hand.

[E229Lt]

Based on the information given, I can't make a determination.

George?

[EFD840]

Here are just a couple of random thoughts:

First, from your description the fire caused very significant damage and insurance is involved. If there's any hint that the fire isn't accidental then there will probably be a private fire investigator working to determine the cause along with the public sector investigator.

Second, if you've got a good fire investigations unit and they've already made a determination so soon they might have located strong evidence to support the finding. If it's bothering you, try to talk to them and get an explanation for the finding.

[CaptainGonzo]

Unless you are trained in arson investigation....

Stay out of the case!

Your own "investigation" may interfere with the legitimate one and jeopardize the chances for an arrest and conviction.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Based on the information given, I can't make a determination.

George?
I will second that. I AM a fire investigator and I certainly do not make assertations based on internet posts.

[hwoods]

Unless you are trained in arson investigation....

Stay out of the case!

Your own "investigation" may interfere with the legitimate one and jeopardize the chances for an arrest and conviction.

YEAH!! What he said.

[Dave1983]

Im sure it was electrical. ;)

[britfan1]

Through mechanical or chemical means, combustibles were heated to the point of ignition, radiating heat to other near-by combustibles and igniting them as well, thereby creating a domino effect that would become self-propagating until all combustibles were consumed or the process was interrupted and terminated.

[saxedspc]

Unless you are trained in arson investigation....

Stay out of the case!

Your own "investigation" may interfere with the legitimate one and jeopardize the chances for an arrest and conviction.

Okay, first of all I didn't conduct my own "investigation". I was just asking about previous fire experiance. I'm kind of a new prick and I want to learn everything I can.

Seems to me like she set her own house on fire.

Doubt me if you must, but there is no way her house went up like it did without being set.

[hwoods]

We had a 1st alarm last night. Got there and it was a 3 story brick home. The front room of the 1st floor's couch was on fire, the entire back room of the second floor was overlapping out the windows and involving the roof, and the middle room of the 3rd floor was starting to roll. We knocked it down and waited for FIU. I got picked to help them by setting up lights and overhauling. The was no duct-work between these floors/rooms to aid in extension, but our arson guys said it was accidental. It looked to me like someone torched the couches in the first two floors and then it spread up the stairwell to the 3rd floor. Oh, yeah, the home owner was standing out front with her rental insurance paperwork in her hand.

I'm gonna pick this thing apart, like a Defense Attorney would. This is not a slam, It's intended as a learning experience, so your next one will be better.
"The front room of the 1st Floor's couch was on Fire" OK, Got that. Was there anything on the sofa that could have caused the Fire? Like a lamp that fell over, allowing the bulb to contact a cushion. Perhaps an ashtray on the end of the sofa? Does the Occupant Smoke tobacco products? Was there a space heater in the room? Had recent/current weather conditions implied that a space heater could have been in use?
On to the second Floor. Was the involved room on the second floor located at the point where the stairway would have carried heat up? Was there an interior door for that room? Was it open or closed? What was the room used for? Was it furnished in a reasonable manner for the intended use? Any objects present in that room that were unusual for the stated use of the room?
OK, Now to the Third floor. Ask the same questions over again that were asked for the First and Second floors.
See where I'm going with this? I never start with an assumption about anything. The others who have said "I wasn't there, so I can't comment" are correct, there is such a lack of substantial evidence here that 99% of us would not want to risk making a wrong call.

George? Mike? Anybody Else?

[BFDNJFF]

I bet it was Mice with matches ! :eek:

[Dalmatian190]

Okay, first of all I didn't conduct my own "investigation". I was just asking about previous fire experiance. I'm kind of a new prick and I want to learn everything I can.

Seems to me like she set her own house on fire.

Doubt me if you must, but there is no way her house went up like it did without being set.

Ever hear the phrase "Sit down, shut up."

You say you're a new prick.

You say you're trying to learn.

A person we have to assume has been trained as an investigator as well as having more experience than you, sees the scene in person and determines it was accidental.

Yet you're here posting one paragraph on the internet and thinking that other people will chime in to say, why yes, you in your admitted new guy eyes has determined that this was obviously an arson????

If you want to ask questions about how something like this could happen, ask the best source -- the investigator. Or if you can't for some reason, describe it and ask about it here. <-- Asking questions is allowed.

What "Sit Down, Shut Up" is about is when you're told the sky is blue, you don't argue it's quiet.

You're simultaneously saying you don't understand something and lack experience, while being able to conclusively determine that it "had to be" something other than what you where told.

Think about that for a while.

The rest of us will wonder for ourselves if you're sincerely interested, another FNG 2/20, a troll, or someone from outside the fire service trying to grind some personal axe since you're first two posts sure aren't showing a good attitude.

Matt

[NYSmokey]

Okay, first of all I didn't conduct my own "investigation". I was just asking about previous fire experiance. I'm kind of a new prick and I want to learn everything I can.

Seems to me like she set her own house on fire.

Doubt me if you must, but there is no way her house went up like it did without being set.

I like a phrase that certain brothers from the East use. "Get in the sink probie." :D

You've just started your career and you are already pissing in the wheaties of people that have been around much longer than you. This will earn you a s***ty reputation and if YOU ever want to be in that investigator's role someday you will have a hard time achieving that.

The investigator can't immediately jump to conclusions that the fire was set. It's a systematic process of ruling out all possible causes (faulty wiring, appliances, heating equipment, weather, etc). I seriously think people are watching too much CSI on TV because everyone seems to think that this stuff is a slam dunk.

I sure hope that you kept your "She must have started it" stuff to a minimum in your area. That kind of statement outside the firehouse can cause BIG problems. So like Dal and a bunch of the others said already you should ask questions, absorb the information, increase your knowledge base, and MAYBE someday you'll be on here telling us how you properly determined a cause of origin.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Random thoughts:

1. I wasn't there.
2. I will ALWAYS defer to the investigators who were there...at least until I look at it myself.
3. I would never, ever, ever give an opinion based on a two paragraph internet post by a newbie who has no respect for authority or experience.
4. I agree. Sit down and shut up.

[saxedspc]

I'm gonna pick this thing apart, like a Defense Attorney would. This is not a slam, It's intended as a learning experience, so your next one will be better.
"The front room of the 1st Floor's couch was on Fire" OK, Got that. Was there anything on the sofa that could have caused the Fire? Like a lamp that fell over, allowing the bulb to contact a cushion. Perhaps an ashtray on the end of the sofa? Does the Occupant Smoke tobacco products? Was there a space heater in the room? Had recent/current weather conditions implied that a space heater could have been in use?

No there was no lamp/space heater/ashtray. She did not smoke. Temp was a nice mid 60's-72.

On to the second Floor. Was the involved room on the second floor located at the point where the stairway would have carried heat up?

No, it wasn't.

Was there an interior door for that room? Was it open or closed?

Yes there was. Also an outside door. I don't know about opened or closed closed; I was busy ventilating the back of the buildiing and the roof.

What was the room used for? Was it furnished in a reasonable manner for the intended use? Any objects present in that room that were unusual for the stated use of the room?

Bedroom. Sorry, yes it was. A bong and a gun (bb thats is, but it looked real, and we were worried about ammo cooking off, so we threw it out the window), but I guess that's not unusual for a teenager.

OK, Now to the Third floor. Ask the same questions over again that were asked for the First and Second floors.
See where I'm going with this? I never start with an assumption about anything. The others who have said "I wasn't there, so I can't comment" are correct, there is such a lack of substantial evidence here that 99% of us would not want to risk making a wrong call.

George? Mike? Anybody Else?

Well, I don't think I made the wrong call, but I wanted to ask some guys with more experience than me. And just for the record I did not start out with any assumptions. I just called it like I believed I saw it.

[Dalmatian190]

And just for the record I did not start out with any assumptions. I just called it like I believed I saw it.

Read that sentence again to see if it still makes sense to you...

bb thats is, but it looked real, and we were worried about ammo cooking off, so we threw it out the window

In seven plus years, I think you just took the cake for the single most irresponsible action I've seen anyone fess up to here. Trust me, that's a high bar.

Let me paraphrase, "We thought we found a loaded firearm, so we threw it out the window."

I don't know if that's the height of narcistic self-absorbtion (I'm the only one who matters...) or just plain and simple failure to engage the brain.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

If you are so concerned about all this. Why don't you report it to someone? Just be sure to follow the chain of command.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Also...What is your theory on how this fire started? Do you have an area of origin. Was there any evidence of accelerants? You started this, so lets see some facts.

[EFD840]

bb thats is, but it looked real, and we were worried about ammo cooking off, so we threw it out the window

In seven plus years, I think you just took the cake for the single most irresponsible action I've seen anyone fess up to here. Trust me, that's a high bar.

Let me paraphrase, "We thought we found a loaded firearm, so we threw it out the window."


Dal, I hope you don't mind me expanding...

"We thought we found a loaded firearm, so we threw it out the window."

"Because it might be loaded, and there might be a round chambered, and that round might cook off even though we're now operating in the same room as the weapon so the temp isn't really that high. If it does still manage to cook off, the round might strike me instead of embedding itself in an appliance, wall, floor joist, mattress, or some other object but I can't take that risk. Instead, I'll throw it out the window. Sure, the impact with the ground is much more likely to trigger an unintentional discharge than say, leaving it alone, and the unobstructed round might strike fellow firefighters, bystanders, apparatus, neighboring buildings, or some guy walking the dog a mile down the road but at least it won't be in the room with me." :rolleyes:

Really, really, really dumb.