This is just so wrong....

[CaptainGonzo]

This is from Billy Goldfeder's site...

A demonstration of "firefighting" at a public safety event that is Darwinian at best...

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/downloads/FirefighterTrainingMishap.wmv

Thoughts and comments?

[VinnieB]

Absolute retards.........that entire dept should be shut down, the TO shot, and the Chief hung......are u kidding me??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChicagoFF]

Wtf......?

[fireman4949]

That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen! What the hell were they trying to prove?! :eek:




Kevin :D

[needlejockey]

HOLY CRAP! Not only was that dangerous but now the whole department (and the whole service to include us) looks like a bunch of dumba@@'s to those people.

[firemedic8107]

I am just in shock. I can't figure out what the point of the whole thing is. I don't know what is worse, the guys crawling directly into the fire, or their "help" being in a bunker coat and helmet, nothing else. I wish someone could give my a clue as to what the point of this whole thing is.

[CaptainGonzo]

I am just in shock. I can't figure out what the point of the whole thing is. I don't know what is worse, the guys crawling directly into the fire, or their "help" being in a bunker coat and helmet, nothing else. I wish someone could give my a clue as to what the point of this whole thing is.

Take a "real close look" at the guy in the bunker coat, lid and jeans....

[Res343cue]

All together now..

WHAT THE F*CK

I've gotten my lid a little crispy, I've felt a little heat, but you don't go crawling into a building thats fully involved like that with fire down to the floor. That's just flat out STUPID.

Anyone know what PG station it is, assuming it's PG County, and not "Podunk Garfield FD? "

[ucanfollowme]

The question is, how long would they have stayed in if the hero in the jeans didn't step in to pull them out.

[Dalmatian190]

Listen to the guy narrating (I'm assuming the guy in jeans)...notice how he goes silent -- or maybe mumbles something he shouldn't have in front of the kids -- the second the firefighter starts crawling in...almost like the "WTF" moment was hitting him right then.

"They have to get down low..." and then it stops about when you'd normally want to say, "then open up the nozzle" but you see them go inside instead.

From the firefighterclosecalls site, it was a PG department that the video was "courtesy of" but it doesn't say if it was their own company's **** up or not.

I just don't fracking understand anything about this fracking situation. I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it. Sadly, I've been told Goldfeder has enough videos, this doesn't rank as the stupidest one in his collection...

[Dalmatian190]

I don't know what is worse, the guys crawling directly into the fire, or their "help" being in a bunker coat and helmet, nothing else.

Without trying to be to harsh...

Think about what you wrote.

There isn't any comparison about what was the "worse" decision.

One was a guy who probably had no intention to being involved in operations.

The other has people who where not trained, where not experienced, and placed in a position they should not have been placed in.

[Dalmatian190]

basically a dupe post...

[Dickey]

WOW!!!

Very bad idea from the start. I hope those guys were not burned or hurt too bad.

Someone needs to be held accountable for that so it doesn't happen again.

Stupid is what stupid does. :confused: :eek:

[FyredUp]

WOW! That is all I can say.

Anyone have any further details besides the video?

FyredUp

[maximumflow]

outrage is the only word i can think of when seeing this video!!! this is total indifference to human life and what makes it worse is the fact they fried brother firefighters in front of family members and the community. to watch a brothers mask melt off his face do to someones lack of common sence and lack of respect to the safety of others is totally unexceptal in todays fire service nomatter were it is !!!! unfinished pine and plywood was a ticking time bomb when they lit the fire,and no visible safety procudures in place is a descrace. this was just short of flashover tempetures and i'am sure the injuries were severe (baked in your turnout gear)!! the worst part is this is a common accurence in training and you think we would learn from all the other times it has happened ? listening to the crowd makes it even harder to watch, they knew something was wrong before the officers. :eek: WOW doesn't even cover it !!!!!

"there is no greater family outside our own than the brotherhood of firefighters"

LT.Dennis :(

[2andfrom]

Elsewhere on these forums a certain Chief Gorrell is quoted as saying

"If they are afraid to get burnt they're on the wrong job"

I take then that this lot would be welcomed with open arms--or if you are burnt enough-open stumps?

I am utterly amazed and dumbfounded by what I witnessed--do you have training sessions where you throw items into the back of roaring furnaces and get the guys to crawl in and retrieve same?

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain.

[THEFIRENUT]

Elsewhere on these forums a certain Chief Gorrell is quoted as saying

"If they are afraid to get burnt they're on the wrong job"

I take then that this lot would be welcomed with open arms--or if you are burnt enough-open stumps?

I am utterly amazed and dumbfounded by what I witnessed--do you have training sessions where you throw items into the back of roaring furnaces and get the guys to crawl in and retrieve same?

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain.

I beg to differ with you. This is NOT a prime example of American Fire Training. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Catch22]

I hate to repeat it, but what the #@*% ?!?!?!

Was this some kind of effort for fire safety/prevention judging by the kids I heard in the background? If the strategy was to scare the hell out of them I think it worked by listening to the kids' voices in the background.

[Ltmdepas3280]

What the hell was that about??[/

[pkfd7505]

My guess is that they wanted to show off for the crowd, that whole "We'll show them what firefighting is all about" macho mentality. Our job is tough enough with adding in astronomical stupidity.


2andfrom, I'm not sure where you got your opinion of American training but this is not a "prime example of American Fire Training". Our Instructors would tear us limb from limb for trying something so stupid, not to mention the fact that we would be off the department before we were out of our gear. This is something we like to refer to as, gross negligence, and you can be terminated for it.

[FyredUp]

2andfrom....

Elsewhere on these forums a certain Chief Gorrell is quoted as saying

"If they are afraid to get burnt they're on the wrong job"

I take then that this lot would be welcomed with open arms--or if you are burnt enough-open stumps?

I am utterly amazed and dumbfounded by what I witnessed--do you have training sessions where you throw items into the back of roaring furnaces and get the guys to crawl in and retrieve same?

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain.

I work part-time as a fire training instructor at the local tech college as well as serve as training officer for my volly FD. This is NOT a prime example of anything other than some serious stupidity. I can't say at this point whether that is the fault of the officer in charge or the person on the nozzle. If one of my co-instructors ever tried to force a student to do anything close to that I guarantee he would be fired.

The safety record of the college I teach for is incredible. We have had few serious injuries of any kind over the 25 years i have taught there. In fact I believe I might have been the most seriously injured of anyone. I had to push students out of the burn room who did not listen and were filling the room with steam. They were not injured I was.

My job is to prepare student firefighters for the real world and part of that is making it clear to them that staying safe as possible is part of THEIR job as firefighters. Injuries occur, burns occur, should we accept it as part of the job and shrug it off? Perhaps, we all know they can occur, but if a FF is injured or burned a close look at why should be taken and measures taken to try and prevent it from re-occuring.

I find your comment about this being a prime example of fire training in the US insulting and even more ill informed.

FyredUp

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally Posted by 2andfrom
Elsewhere on these forums a certain Chief Gorrell is quoted as saying

"If they are afraid to get burnt they're on the wrong job"

I take then that this lot would be welcomed with open arms--or if you are burnt enough-open stumps?

I am utterly amazed and dumbfounded by what I witnessed--do you have training sessions where you throw items into the back of roaring furnaces and get the guys to crawl in and retrieve same?

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain

This is like watching a bunch of rioting soccer hooligans from the UK and labeling all the fans from their behaviour.

What happened here was not an example of "American fire training".

This was a few firefighters trying to "put on a show" for the public.

Extremely poor and life threatening decisions were made by all of those involved.

[oldandwise071]

This has been around for a little while. If I remember correctly the guys making entry are both brand new. The little girl crying in the audience to "get them out" is one of the firefighters daughters. They both survived with one being flown with burns to the hands, neck and face. I think this is a fine example of what happens when there is no experienced personnel to lead the crew. Mister microphone was apparently too busy or timid to say anything and I'm sure if any of you where present there would have been language used not normally spoken in PR events.

[EFD840]

I am just in shock. I can't figure out what the point of the whole thing is. I don't know what is worse, the guys crawling directly into the fire, or their "help" being in a bunker coat and helmet, nothing else. I wish someone could give my a clue as to what the point of this whole thing is.


I think Dal's right - the guy in the PG coat looked like he realized he was watching a train wreck and decided to jump in and do something about it. As soon as they're out, you can hear him yelling what sounds like 'gimme that hose'. And while I'm on that, had he not intervened I wonder at what point someone would have thought 'hey they're on fire I might want to flow some water'.

I really don't know what to say. Did the folks crawling into the fire not have any training? I just can't imagine anybody with formal training making an entry like these guys! Like everyone said, WTF? Does anybody know the details?

One final thought: Somebody or somebodies really needs to find a different way to serve their community.

[jmitchell]

I have watched this video over and over and I still have no words to describe it. If you notice, the second guy on the line goes in and just sits there. What is wrong with them? Just plain stupid..stupid...stupid.

[ThNozzleman]

Take a "real close look" at the guy in the bunker coat, lid and jeans....
Yeah, I noticed that...but that isn't the department doing this. I have the entire clip, and the name of the department is clearly written on the engine when they respond. I was trying to convert the DVD I have to something I could post, but I've not had much luck with it. The one I have has several more "WTF's" on it, too.

[CaptainGonzo]

Yeah, I noticed that...but that isn't the department doing this. I have the entire clip, and the name of the department is clearly written on the engine when they respond. I was trying to convert the DVD I have to something I could post, but I've not had much luck with it. The one I have has several more "WTF's" on it, too.

Why would someone from PGFD be there wearing his coat and lid if it wasn't a PGFD sanctioned function?

I know that there are many departments that make up the PGFD, and I would hope that we can get an explanation of just what happened here from someone in PG, but I am sure that we will get someone actually defending what we see here! :rolleyes:

[ThNozzleman]

Why would someone from PGFD be there wearing his coat and lid if it wasn't a PGFD sanctioned function?
Not sure. Check your PM's, Cap.

[CulkinVFD]

my take on it is this. i think what we have is two hot shot firemen who have never fought a real fire. if u listen close, as soon as they enter the house, many people in the crowd notice something is wrong. i believe u can hear one woman say "of my god" as soon as they go in. also, the 3rd firemen in all gear just outside the door just kinda sits there also. i dont know if he didnt know what he was doing either, or he was in was in that "what the F#*@" state as well. and the guy in the jeans more than likely saved those "firemen" from great injury by steping in when he did, regardless if he was protected or not. he realized what was going on and did something about it. im sure all those lil kids in the crowd are really horrified of fire now.

[CulkinVFD]

in my last post i meant that the woman said "oh my god." i also went back and re-read the posts. i heard the child crying, but i didnt notice her yell "get them out" untill i listened real close. thats even worse, to know that there are children watching, as well as one of the firefighters daughters in the crowd. well just take it and learn from it. i hope these firefighters are ok though.

[CaptainGonzo]

Not sure. Check your PM's, Cap.

I did, Bob.. thank you.

[irons308]

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain.[/QUOTE]


he did say "if this is a prime example" in his defense. However he is on "Firehouse.com" part of "Firehouse Magazine" Which is an American Fire Training Magazine who's founding editor was a famous Amercian Fireman named Dennis Smith. What week of British Fire School do they teach shingle spraying practices? (kidding)

This was a very irresponsible demonstation, the only thing that provided to the children watching was a healthy dose of PTSD. We have done evolutions involving a three sided structure for the pupose of an APW demonstration. WTF

[Dave404]

This has been around for a little while. If I remember correctly the guys making entry are both brand new. The little girl crying in the audience to "get them out" is one of the firefighters daughters. They both survived with one being flown with burns to the hands, neck and face. I think this is a fine example of what happens when there is no experienced personnel to lead the crew. Mister microphone was apparently too busy or timid to say anything and I'm sure if any of you where present there would have been language used not normally spoken in PR events.

Rookies take note - you ever do anything like this around me youd better stay in the frickin fire!

Unbelievable!

[Firefighter2230]

This has been around for a little while. If I remember correctly the guys making entry are both brand new. The little girl crying in the audience to "get them out" is one of the firefighters daughters. They both survived with one being flown with burns to the hands, neck and face. I think this is a fine example of what happens when there is no experienced personnel to lead the crew. Mister microphone was apparently too busy or timid to say anything and I'm sure if any of you where present there would have been language used not normally spoken in PR events.
I'll guess the one flown would have been the one that went in first and came out last. I listened closely and at the end it sounds like you can hear what seems to be one or both of the firefighters scream (Tim from backdraft anyone???)
Nozzleman any luck with converting that DVD?

[ThNozzleman]

Nozzleman any luck with converting that DVD?
Yes...stand by a few...

[ThNozzleman]

Ok...here it is in WMV (4.57M). I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I consider it already in the public domain...so I don't really care. I have several more if you guys are interested in seeing them, too.
funhouse.wmv (http://www.jeffersoncityfire.com/funhouse.wmv)

[firemedic8107]

First, I was being sarcastic when I said the only help they had was not in bunker gear. I didn't realize he was the narrator, but I didn't see anyone else on the video in full gear, scba, etc ready to rescue these guys.

I didn't mean to offend anybody I was trying to prove my point that it just blew my mind how these guys could do that, and the officers allowed it.

[ThNozzleman]

The framerate lost a little during conversion...but I didn't have much to work with.

[pkfd7505]

Ok...here it is in WMV (4.57M). I hope I don't get flamed for this, but I consider it already in the public domain...so I don't really care. I have several more if you guys are interested in seeing them, too.
funhouse.wmv (http://www.jeffersoncityfire.com/funhouse.wmv)

Thanks for the link Noz.

[ThNozzleman]

First, I was being sarcastic when I said the only help they had was not in bunker gear. I didn't realize he was the narrator, but I didn't see anyone else on the video in full gear, scba, etc ready to rescue these guys.
They supposedly had two more on a back-up line.

[Firefighter2230]

nozzleman would have any problems with me hosting this on a site like youtube so that I could send this to my chief to use for our department?

[firemedic8107]

I see that with the other link, but still don't understand the mentality of it and why they didn't start shooting water from the beginning or after they became engulfed inside the door.

[Firefighter2230]

I see that with the other link, but still don't understand the mentality of it and why they didn't start shooting water from the beginning or after they became engulfed inside the door.
I think it was brought up earlier what if they sent that new kid in and he was told by the more experienced guy look heroic and don't flow water until you get on the inside. But after getting in he was burning up and freaked?

[LtLarry]

Unbelievable. I am shocked beyond words. I can't believe someone came up with the hair-brained idea to have that fire in the first place, let alone allow those guys to go in there. How many violations of NFPA code can you think of. I hope to god that people got booted from the department for that, and I pray that training officers will learn to knock the "hero" out of new recruits before they let them loose on the fireground.

[ThNozzleman]

nozzleman would have any problems with me hosting this on a site like youtube so that I could send this to my chief to use for our department?
Heck that's fine with me. I'll leave it posted on my server for a while. I have plenty of space. Check this one out....
Dumbass.wmv (http://jeffersoncityfire.com/Dumbass.wmv)

[ThNozzleman]

Darn...screwed it up..bear with me...

[ThNozzleman]

Ok...changing the resolution to help with the quality a little.

[Dalmatian190]

Well alrighty. I'm glad they took care of that burning porch when the smouldering firefighter walked by...

[tfpd109]

I just don't get the point of going in something like that (both videos). Just dumb :(

[BD6413]

It's a wonder that no one was killed. -- :eek: :eek:

I'm guessing this was some sort of an open-house or fire prevention event. Common sense was left at the curb on this one. Live burns are something that take careful consideration and planning except for the ones that hurt or kill firefighters. I can't imagine what was going through the Chief's mind when that event was set up.

They got lucky....that's all I can really say

Anyone know what bunch of nit-wits this was ? I'd love to know the department responsible. Rumor had it a PGFD {Prince Georges County, Maryland} Company - Don't want to start another PGFD war....just clarifying what I've herd

[ThNozzleman]

Anyone know what bunch of nit-wits this was ? I'd love to know the department responsible. Rumor had it a PGFD {Prince Georges County, Maryland} Company - Don't want to start another PGFD war....just clarifying what I've herd
No, it was not PGFD. The department was from another county in MD. If you guys can figure it out, fine...but I see no need to relate who they are; just what they did.

[cityfire7]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First, I hope that the firefighters involved were not injured too severely...

Second, I hope that the command/leadership of this organization takes a good hard look at it's training methods.

Noz... Thanks for the link. Is the second link from the same dept.?????

[cityfire7]

Noz... Thanks for the link. Is the second link from the same dept.?????

Okay, if they are the same department, then it looks to me like the ff's get their kicks on WALKING into a well involved room just as some kind of macho, "gee, look at me" type of stunt. I don't pretend to know how other departments train and operate, but I know that my entire command staff would be pitching all kinds of fits over idiotic stunts like these.

[ThNozzleman]

Noz... Thanks for the link. Is the second link from the same dept.?????
I don't know for sure, but I don't think so.

[ThNozzleman]

Okay, if they are the same department, then it looks to me like the ff's get their kicks on WALKING into a well involved room just as some kind of macho, "gee, look at me" type of stunt.
Well, if you ever wonder why some of these guys' gear is always looking like toast, wonder no more. I prefer to knock the fire down BEFORE it ruins my gear. :cool:

[pkfd7505]

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so.

Maybe it's just me, I couldn't see the second video all that well, but didn't that FF in the second video have a red helmet? Red hats on our dept are LTs, any FF should know better then to go into something like that but an officer doing it is worse IMO.

[baileydonk]

I bet they had walked through this scenario beforehand, with no fire of course - "Okay, then you'll get low and crawl through the door, and when you get about *here* you open the nozzle..." The fire took off faster than they had anticipated, or the crew took longer to get in position than they had anticipated - and the newbie FFs were too naive to know that they had to change their plan. "Stage fright" maybe... thinking of it as a performance for the audience instead of as an actual FIRE... and of course, not wanting to hesitate in front of everyone watching...

I can actually understand it, but can't excuse it. Dumb idea, poor training, dangerous choices, slow reactions, twisted priorities. It's absolutely horrifying to watch - and I haven't even played it with the sound yet.

[Dalmatian190]

Red hats on our dept are LTs,

Be careful with colors unless you know the department.

Red helmets in mine are 16 & 17 year olds (i.e. no where near the flames).

About the only thing almost standard is White helmets for Chief Officers...I've seen all officers in White though, and you know there has got to be some snowball department out there with everyone dressed like the good humor man.

[pkfd7505]

Red hats on our dept are LTs,

Be careful with colors unless you know the department.

Red helmets in mine are 16 & 17 year olds (i.e. no where near the flames).

About the only thing almost standard is White helmets for Chief Officers...I've seen all officers in White though, and you know there has got to be some snowball department out there with everyone dressed like the good humor man.

Thats why I added the "On our dept" comment, there is no way to be sure. I was just pointing out that if it indeed was an officer, then the offense is worse IMO.

[MOTOWN88]

If you look very very close at the original that the Cap posted (the more clear version) look at the floor in front of the second man in the shed. Looks like they didnt have control of the nozzle or they where bickering for it or something. Not that its any type of excuse.

[Firefighter2230]

Dumb idea, poor training, dangerous choices, slow reactions, twisted priorities. It's absolutely horrifying to watch - and I haven't even played it with the sound yet.
do you consider the idea of putting on the demonstration dumb or how the FF's actions dumb?

[Dalmatian190]

I'd hope that was them starting to realize they screwed up and trying to figure out how to turn around in bunker gear, Motown!

Even if they had nozzle control in there, what would've been the difference, serious steam burns instead of just serious burns?

=======
And a related side note, I've now seen a couple references to Goldfeder's Texas Chainsaw Massacre video still making this one not look that bad in comparison...

Anyone have a link to it? I haven't been able to find it on Google or Firefighterclosecalls.

[MOTOWN88]

Dont ask me I was making an observation.

Truth be known they were prob laid off guys from the City of Detroit.

[ThNozzleman]

Off topic, I guess...but here's another vid that was with the same disk. There's also one of a garage door closing on a crew during a house fire. I'll try to get that one up by tomorrow or maybe tonight.

Why we wear up-to-date gear and stay low...
Oh, snap! (http://www.jeffersoncityfire.com/ohsnap.wmv)

[Firefighter2230]

nozzle where are you getting these from and can I get a copy?

[EFD840]

Off topic, I guess...but here's another vid that was with the same disk. There's also one of a garage door closing on a crew during a house fire. I'll try to get that one up by tomorrow or maybe tonight.

Why we wear up-to-date gear and stay low...
Oh, snap! (http://www.jeffersoncityfire.com/ohsnap.wmv)

Was it just me, or was the cameraman several heartbeats late with the "Oh S%*T" I know I sure beat him to it when I watched this clip. :D

For sure, that's an "Oh S%*T" moment!

Noz, any idea when and where this one was made? The trucks look very late 70s or early 80s and the first one is carrying a ground ladder european style.

[pfd4life]

completley, and utterly speechless on both of the first two vids....wow, just freakin wow..

[ThNozzleman]

Noz, any idea when and where this one was made?
I have no idea, actually. I figured somewhere in the Mid-west, perhaps.

[ThNozzleman]

nozzle where are you getting these from and can I get a copy?
Well, you should be able to right click on the link, and choose "save target as". Then download them from our server to a folder of your choice.

[baileydonk]

do you consider the idea of putting on the demonstration dumb or how the FF's actions dumb?

I guess I'd consider any demonstration putting live fire and inexperienced firefighters together in close quarters, in front of an audience, particularly an audience of children, a terrible idea.

[JHawkins23]

wow that is pretty idiotic

[emsrbell]

ThNozzleman, I am pretty sure that the pressure vessel explosion video took place in Ontario, Canada. One member ended up with permenent hearing damage.

[ThNozzleman]

That very well could be...and they're lucky if that's all the damage that got done. I was a little surprised that right after it happened, some of them went right up to the door, again. Scary stuff. A local mental health clinic requested we look at a client's home the other day, to check for smoke detectors and fire hazards. The old fellow was burning coal mostly, but we also discovered a 50 gallon propane tank in the kitchen, connected to a space heater. Talk about a nasty surprise. You just never know.

[CulkinVFD]

the last video with the explosion....does anyone know what actually blew up? i thought about takin the first 2 vids and showing them to the rookies at the volunteer department im on about what not to do, and then the last vid about how its important to wear ur gear. also, where can u get these videos from???? thanks fellas.

[Dickey]

NOT a farm boy here but...... I am guessing it was a mini BLEVE in the bulk milk storage tank(s) or maybe a liquid manure tank from the outside. It could also be some liquid fertilzer too that was stored outside.

No matter what it was, I bet it didn't feel so good. Hope they are ok. Looks like it was from early to mid 80's based on hairstyles, vehicles and equipment.

[BD6413]

No, it was not PGFD. The department was from another county in MD. If you guys can figure it out, fine...but I see no need to relate who they are; just what they did.


...Nozzleman is probably right but I'd still like to know who these retards were. - This isn't the way any of us are trained to attack structual fires. Especially ones that are that involved. I don't care if it was a training excerise or not......Their certifications 'ought to be pulled and the company investigated.

[ChicagoFF]

Nice vids, noz. Post more if you have any. I showed them to the guys at work last night and they were rolling.

[Dalmatian190]

NOT a farm boy here but...... I am guessing it was a mini BLEVE in the bulk milk storage tank(s) or maybe a liquid manure tank from the outside.

Not a real farm boy here although I can be found on them occassionally :)

But I'd go for something more common...like a propane tank. Maybe a acetylene or other gas welding set.

Milk storage tanks are well insulated (the milk is chilled as it goes into the tank). So while it's true a can of baked beans can BLEVE in the right situation, I have a hard time finding a well insulated tank like a milk tank would with that amount of fire. You'd also expect the milk tank by the front where the tractor trailer can back up easily for a pickup.

It would, at least in my area, be real unusual to find an above ground manure tank on a farm that size...and the few I have seen are freakin' huge. (http://www.slurrystore.com/ for those of you wondering what the heck a liquid manure tank is, and yes, it's as bad as you think!). I don't know if a manure tank, even above ground, would be air tight enough to build up enough pressure to support a BLEVE...

[emsrbell]

CulkinVFD, that explosion was from an oxy/acetylene tank and if I remember correctly, you could hear the relief valves screaming. I would like to add that this happened a very long time ago as you will not find a fire department in Ontario with that type of turn out gear any more. As for the tactic's? It's forum's like this, continuous education and common sense that will eventualy make the difference. Only problem is, some common sense is not all that common.
Play safe
Robert

[mark440]

Wow...

I'm dumbfounded.
A classic case of "do as I say and not as I do".

I hope no one EVERY does this around me! I'm afraid of what might happen, the azz whoopen or the injuries.

Thanks for the videos Noz. Have anymore or a link to more?

*Mark

[ThNozzleman]

Now this one will get you. We've all been told (at least I hope we have) about the dangers of garage doors and what happens to them in a fire. What amazes me is the white hat who stands there and lets it happen.
rutrohshaggy.wmv (http://jeffersoncityfire.com/rutrohshaggy.wmv)

[ThNozzleman]

Also, note the guy coming out with the bell ringing and no mask on. This same fellow either lost his gloves, or didn't have any on. Later in the clip (I cut it short), he is shown getting rescue with skin hanging from his left hand.

[N2DFire]

Not a real farm boy here although I can be found on them occassionally :)

Dal - what in the name of Jehoshaphat are you doing on farm boys ??? :eek:
;)

Seriously though - these clips scare the freaking he!! out of me.
I'll def be showing these in the next FF I & II classes I teach.

that last one is a great example of needing to secure the door, having RIT, having Accountability, and that's what I came up with just half watching it the first time.

Thanks for Sharing Noz.

[PFDTruck18]

Ever wonder why some guys from companies that NEVER get work have helmets and gear thats been thru hell? Here are some perfect examples. The first video, looks like it took alot longer to pack up than they expected and encountered a heavier fire volume than originally expected. Why he didnt open up and he crawled in is beyond me. You wanna bet that the second clip that guy went in for nothing more than to "darken" his helmet. Whats scary is that NOBODY noticed or cared that the entire room was engulfed and their brother just WALKED into that room with no line. Whats scary is that NOBODY noticed or cared that their brother just WALKED out of that room a burnt smoldering mess. The third clip is a perfect example of tunnel vision. The fellas on the line saw that nice big opening to make access to the seat of the fire and never gave thought to the fact that once that door falls, theyre stuck. You see the chief call for some hooks and the guy is the bright yellow gear (oops they all have bright yellow gear) brings the hooks but isnt wearing a pack so he is obviously useless. Did you notice the one white hat actually attempted to open the second door for a second early in the clip, it didnt budge. What gets me is how slow the door came down and how NOBODY noticed or made an attempt to stop the door. Seems a few of them fellas wanted no parts of interior firefighting.

[Smoke20286]

in my last post i meant that the woman said "oh my god." i also went back and re-read the posts. i heard the child crying, but i didnt notice her yell "get them out" untill i listened real close. thats even worse, to know that there are children watching, as well as one of the firefighters daughters in the crowd. well just take it and learn from it. i hope these firefighters are ok though.

Actually whats really worse is knowing that there were children in the crowd with better sense then these "firefighters"

[Smoke20286]

Well alrighty. I'm glad they took care of that burning porch when the smouldering firefighter walked by...

You mean the one who walked past a perfectly good line and into the flames with empty hands?

[Dalmatian190]

Yep :)

Ok guys, going to ask a serious question...maybe I am totally wet.

Would it not be the rule...if you see a firefighter come out who is either smoking or on fire, PUT WATER ON HIM.

Obviously close the nozzle bail so you're not hitting them with a lot of pressure, but I'm thinking there really isn't anything you can make worse!

[Dalmatian190]

on FARMS....on FARMS...not farmboys...on FARMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Firefighter2230]

Now this one will get you. We've all been told (at least I hope we have) about the dangers of garage doors and what happens to them in a fire. What amazes me is the white hat who stands there and lets it happen.
rutrohshaggy.wmv (http://jeffersoncityfire.com/rutrohshaggy.wmv)
this video would not load for me is it working for anyone else?

[EFD840]

Dal - what in the name of Jehoshaphat are you doing on farm boys ??? :eek:
;)



Brokeback pasture?!? :eek: :eek: :D

[mark440]

I am amazed... :(
I cannot think of a single thing to say. I cannot think of any excuses that would work in any of these videos. No justifications at all!

*Mark

[Dalmatian190]

On the garage door video Nozz, I think there are some other lessons beyond the obvious (block your door open) and normal questions (if we're 10-15 minutes in since the air packs are running low, why do we have that much black smoke still near the hoseline? Obviously, we're not hitting the seat of the fire)

Ventilation.

Ventilation.

Ventilation.

If something had intensified that fire, it would've gone rolling over the heads of the crew and towards the only good vent opening -- the door they entered. That's something I've noticed a bunch on NIOSH -- crew enters a front door, fire goes over them and blocks the exit. BECAUSE THERE WAS NO OTHER GOOD VENT.

And that's basic, basic, basic. Coordinate ventilation with fire attack. Lots of time, venting has done itself. Sometime it needs help.

And while I know it's only a one story, single family dwelling...VERTICAL VENT THIS FIRE.

It takes one or two firefighters...Ok, one of them should be pretty experienced, the other guy could be a FNG who can follow direction. Chuck a ladder against the side, haul up a roof ladder, saw or axe to open the roof, pike pole to make an open in the ceiling.

Had that fire been vertically vented, one it wouldn't be venting out the egress, and two had someone still not chocked the doors, the crew inside wouldn't have been in near as much trouble since the heat & smoke would've been going out the roof and not banking down.

[EFD840]

Yep :)

Ok guys, going to ask a serious question...maybe I am totally wet.

Would it not be the rule...if you see a firefighter come out who is either smoking or on fire, PUT WATER ON HIM.

Obviously close the nozzle bail so you're not hitting them with a lot of pressure, but I'm thinking there really isn't anything you can make worse!

Dal, that's something that amazed me about the first video. One of the victims' helmets is showing flames and yet the guy in the PG coat has to yell for someone to hand him the line before you see water being applied.

Um, excuse me, but these guys are like um, on fire. Would it be too much trouble for you to use that squirty thingy to put them out?

[275fbvfd]

i have a question, on the first video, it shows the firefighters donning masks and sock hoods.......

is this standard practice for most departments to not get dressed on the truck and only at the front door?? im not saying you have to get packed out 5 minutes away from the fire, but if you know your around the corner, about to arrive, and you know your going in , why not get ready for it??

( especially in the video and its a training fire )

i dont know how other FD's work, but im curious if thats a standard practice elswwhere.



and hearing a child scream " get em out " is just horrifying.

[RalphSafety]

OMG, stop the insanity! That first clip just freaked me out, why would you walk into a solid wall of fire?

The long clip, with the explosion on the farm, was filmed in Western Ontario in the late 80s, I remember seeing it on the news. Although the gear has changed and the training has improved, it is still a valuable lesson because it there are lots of flammables and pressurized containers on farms and other rural buildings, and also, it shows how things can suddenly go very bad in the blink of an eye.

[Dalmatian190]

is this standard practice for most departments to not get dressed on the truck and only at the front door??

Yep.

Well, with the caveats I don't know if it's "most" but it's the way it should be; you're not getting "dressed" you're donning your mask; and if you really are that concerned about safety, you should've gotten dressed in your gear at the station, not in the truck going down the road :)

Adjust your mask enroute, so you can slide it back on with minimal re-adjustment (a/k/a catcher's mask style). Test your regulator and all while you're at it.

You put it on while on scene, off the truck, looking at the building...

So unlike those guys when you see what you're about to do and say "F' that!"

Having the mask on when you exit the truck is more dangerous.

First of all, you've already physcially created tunnel vision in addition to any mental tunnel vision. You can't easily see the whole situation.

That is provided you can actually see and haven't fogged the mask up.

Second, it gives you a moment with your partner looking at the fire and agree on your course of action.

It should not take you, if you've practiced, more than 10 seconds to don your mask & hood. I'd aim for 5 to 7 seconds.

Use that time to watch the fire, see how it's acting, verify with the officer and your partner what you will be doing.

On buildings larger than a SFD, you may not even don the mask until you're closer to the fire where there actually is smoke.

(Ok, so I've been known to pull the mask on during final approach for car fires and such that I could size up from the truck...but that's the exception rather than the rule)

[Bones42]

We are dressed before we get on the truck about 95% of the time. On scene, get to the door, put facepiece on, pull up hood, put on helmet, in you go.


Good (but very sad) videos.

[ChicagoFF]

We mask at the door if we need to.

[FFFRED]

We mask at the door if we need to.

Same here.

FTM-PTB

[PFDTruck18]

same here, no mask while on the piece.

[275fbvfd]

hmm, the few fires ive made, if we are first in, we have masks on ready to grab a crosslay and make entry ( per commands instructions of course ) if were not first in, i wait to put my mask on till i face to face with command for instruction. as we may grab a hydrant ( on the way in ), or have to setup the truck for vent operations.

i have been to large buildings where you dont mask up till you get to the fire. i was just curious who waited till they are about to make entry if your first in.

[ThNozzleman]

On the garage door video Nozz, I think there are some other lessons beyond the obvious (block your door open) and normal questions (if we're 10-15 minutes in since the air packs are running low, why do we have that much black smoke still near the hoseline? Obviously, we're not hitting the seat of the fire)
True. I would have at least forced the other garage door open. That probably would helped out a lot, plus provided another way out for those guys.

[Dalmatian190]

I like that idea to open up the other door, too -- Nozz...and remember "try before you pry" and order to force the other door is probably as simple as go inside, unlock, and raise the door.

If you think of the normal garage, one FF assigned the role to make the doors safe could easily open the other door, then look around and find something to put in the door way -- a step ladder, a lawnmower, something that is pretty solid to put under each door to at least keep a doors from coming down all the way and pinching the line off. I'd figure if one door is going to have springs or whatever fail and let it down, the other wouldn't be far behind.

[ThNozzleman]

Heck, yeah...any port in a storm. Just a pair of vice-grips on the door track would be better than nothing. These guys are very lucky...if you call nearly dying luck.

[throthestick]

thats nice... bunch of clowns... wheres kentland when ya need em ,, they would have stole the line away from those guys and they never wouldah got crispy..

[CaptainMikey]

That is completley the stupidest dangerous thing that I have seen, What was going through their mind? Showboating?

[Weruj1]

I saw the first and last videos posted here through a Seminar with Billy Gee..I will email him when I get home to see if he can shed some light on those videos I mentioned. I have not seen the Pressurized Vessel Expolsion or the FF walking into that live burn room. :eek: :eek: :eek: :(

PS-Noz great videos ............it is a sad way to learn to make ourselves better.

[beastie35]

what idiots

[hwoods]

First time I've ever seen so many posters agree on something. I think Bob (Noz) knows, (and I know as well,) where this happened, but the identity of this group shall continue to remain unknown to most. Here's a few points: This Event did not happen in PG County, and the guy who had the PG coat on got chewed good for taking it with him on a "visit" out of the County. This one person was, as far as anyone has been able to determine, the only one there from PG. This incident happened 7 years ago. Anyone have a clue why it just surfaced?? No one here does. I am not, under any circumstances, defending anyone involved in this, I am trying to clear the air a bit with a few factual points.

[Firefighter2230]

woods by chance can you give any info on the two ff's in the first video. I believe it was said earlier one was flown out with his burns and that the other one was not as bad?

[Dalmatian190]

Harve --

The credit for the video on Firefighterclosecalls was "Courtesy of the College Park Volunteer Fire Department" -- while I thought the coats didn't look right for the guys entering I'm not that big of a buff to know for sure, I did make the reasonable assumption since the one coat that was clearly visible was PGFD, the video came from a PGFD department, it was PG.

So lesson #2 from this: Be careful how you wear your gear and represent your department. I don't mind CP sharing the video, but they should ask that it gets "clearly credited" or something that it is not a PG County incident despite the one coat & the source of the video!

[2andfrom]

If this is a prime example of American Fire Training, thank God I did mine in Britain.


he did say "if this is a prime example" in his defense. However he is on "Firehouse.com" part of "Firehouse Magazine" Which is an American Fire Training Magazine who's founding editor was a famous Amercian Fireman named Dennis Smith. What week of British Fire School do they teach shingle spraying practices? (kidding)

This was a very irresponsible demonstation, the only thing that provided to the children watching was a healthy dose of PTSD. We have done evolutions involving a three sided structure for the pupose of an APW demonstration. WTF[/QUOTE]
Thank you Irons308-you spotted the magic word "IF"- do those of you ,who are ready to jump down my throat think that a retired professional fireman-me-would think that all of you over the "Pond" are trained to the abysmal standards as these poor 'barstewards' portrayed on video?
If you are indeed trained to these standards,then I think you would spend more time attending funerals than fighting fires.

[CALFFBOU]

Hmmmmm...I think we all can agree it comes down to a classroom education BEFORE you even hit the fireground.

In California, we have a class called "Fire Control 3". Giving you the basics of Interior attack. Find something, anything for your people PRIOR to gearnig up and going in.

As always- here is your video-
http://longbeach.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?publish_id=89

[Monrovia1]

That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen! What the hell were they trying to prove?! :eek:




Kevin :D


That they have no idea what they're doing

[j2brown]

We use the first video (and a second that I didn't see in this thread) in our igniter classes as examples of what not to do.

The first one if a bit on the long/large side. Be warned.

http://inetdocs.loudoun.gov/fire/docs/trainingcorner_/trainingvideocl_/index.htm

jeff
sdg

edit:...and now I discover that somebody posted this in another thread that I hadn't read yet.

[WaterbryVTfire]

I have seen some scary videos in time...but that one scares the sh*t out of me!! :eek:

[RFRDxplorer]

OMG!!!!!! That is sickening! WHY WOULG YOU EVEN CONSIDER GOING INTO THAT?!?!?!

[Axe343]

All I have to say is in the 16 years I have been doing this job, that has to be second dumbest thing I have ever seen during training or a demonstration. I f this happened in my department everyone involved in this including the guys that went into that inferno would not only be kicked off the department but everyone would have been brought up on criminal charges.
That has got to be the second biggest disgrace I have ever seen in my entire career. Dont get me wrong, if there was human life at risk I would do the same as those guys did. That being said, however, I would never do or allow to be done, something like this during training, demonstrations, or just to save a foundation.
The dumbmest thing I have seen was worse than this, during training a certain town in North Jersey put several probies inside a school bus with similar fire conditions and then closed the door behind them with no hoses inside the bus. While these poor kids where in the the interior of the bus flashedover. The results where horrible.

Remember guys use your heads.

Stay low- Let it blow
FTM-PTB

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

The dumbmest thing I have seen was worse than this, during training a certain town in North Jersey put several probies inside a school bus with similar fire conditions and then closed the door behind them with no hoses inside the bus. While these poor kids where in the the interior of the bus flashedover. The results where horrible.

"New Jersey Training Burn; Real-life Lessons". Wendt, George A.
Fire Engineering Magazine, March 1994, pp. 42-50.

[hwoods]

First: 2230 - As far as I can determine, injuries were minor, which can only be credited to the PPE holding up under the worst conditions. Again, I can't say for sure, but I am told that both are still active with the department. One Point - In this area (Metro DC and Baltimore) when you get a burn, you go to the Burn Center at Washington Hospital Center. Period. No BS, you go. And it pays off big time in reducing problems associated with recovering from burns.

Second: Dal - We agree. If I wanted to put something on my website, I'd be certain to get the appropriate permission prior to using the material, AND, I'd be giving the proper credit as well. But, ya know, maybe sometimes some folks don't want to take credit for something...... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Bostonjake1240]

I don't know what is worse, the guys crawling directly into the fire, or their "help" being in a bunker coat and helmet, nothing else.

Without trying to be to harsh...

Think about what you wrote.

There isn't any comparison about what was the "worse" decision.

One was a guy who probably had no intention to being involved in operations.

The other has people who where not trained, where not experienced, and placed in a position they should not have been placed in.

Agreed!! I have read up to this point yet so If my next comment has already been beaten to death pardon me. Has anyone looked at the building construction?? It is a shed, they are lucky that the thing didnt fall on top of them to boot!

[Axe343]

I have to say I have just watched this video clip close to 50 times and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Did anyone notice anything other than the 2 a-holes going into that fire???????

Watch closely just after they make entry. Look to the right of the screen at the hose outside the fire building. IT IS FLAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No water!!!!!!! WTF!!!
they went in with no water.

Also take notice just as the guy started pulling them out seconds before he arrived, the first guy stands up in the fire. That explains why he got so burned. You can see him stand up in the flames. He trips and then knocks the second over on his way out.
Also look at his mask as he is on the ground the regulator on his mask is gone!!!!!!! not just melted but gone.

If they had a charged line with them they could have knocked that down real quick. But who tought them to go in with no water??????? Plus a 5 second application of water before hnd would have darkend it down fast.

Sorry guys, I dont mean to beat this to death but that is what almost happened here.


Stay Low- Let it Blow
FTM-PTB

[confire]

That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen! What the hell were they trying to prove?! :eek:
Kevin :D
I have many thoughts on that video but to keep it short I'll facsimile fireman4949

THAT’S ONE OF THE MOST IDIOTIC THINGS I’VE EVER SEEN! WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY TRYING TO PROVE?

[TillerMan25]

My name is Chris and I am with the Clinton VFD in P.G. County.........now that I got that out of the way,

It was the Hillandale Volunteer Fire Department in Montgomery County at one of their open houses. Hillandale borders P.G. County and runs alot of MA into PG. They probably had a good relationship with the PG Border Companies at the time (Dont know now, they only have a handful of Vollies left and are mainly career staffed at both of theier stations) which is probably why the guy from PG was there. Other than that...he may have been a member at HVFD and somewhere in PG..but it's irrelevant. It was still a bonehead video.

[ThNozzleman]

It was the Hillandale Volunteer Fire Department in Montgomery County at one of their open houses.
I think some of us know who these guys were...there was no need for anyone else to know. I made it pretty clear it wasn't a PG county department...but that should have been obvious, since there wasn't a fistfight going on, too.
Thanks anyhow. :rolleyes:

[VinnieB]

I think some of us know who these guys were...there was no need for anyone else to know. I made it pretty clear it wasn't a PG county department...but that should have been obvious, since there wasn't a fistfight going on, too.
Thanks anyhow. :rolleyes:


OH...Shots fired!!!!!!!

Now that was pretty funny.......

[hwoods]

OH...Shots fired!!!!!!!

Now that was pretty funny.......

I think you guys missed the point. I am here to plead for peace and tranquility, even if I have to whip everbody's butt to stop the violence..... :D :D :D :D :D

[spearsm]

OH...Shots fired!!!!!!!

Now that was pretty funny.......

I think you guys missed the point. I am here to plead for peace and tranquility, even if I have to whip everbody's butt to stop the violence..... :D :D :D :D :D


BWAAAHHAAAAAHAHAH! :D
Or my favorite "The beatings will continue until moral improves"


Now back to the completely UNBALEEVALBE clip

[RalphSafety]

Another thing that I don't believe anyone has commented on, in the Pressure Vessel Explosion clip, when the pumper turns into the driveway the officer, without gear on, hops up on the running board and holds onto the mirror as they drive up to the building. That's a good way to break your neck.

[ThNozzleman]

That's a good way to break your neck.
And a lot of other things, too!

[RspctFrmCalgary]

But the garage door video wouldn't work for me.

In the other one, that was one of the first things I noticed too, the guy hitching a ride on the truck. I don't imagine you see that too much anymore.
With the poor quality of the video, I don't know how you guys could see details like their hairstyles though, I had to use my imagination to realize that orange stuff was fire ;) :eek: :o

As to the first video ....... OH MY GOD :eek: :eek: :(

[TillerMan25]

Noz, I see you have taken me off your ignore list.

Secondly, they are a publically funded organization and if they don't want their name out there when something like this happens, than don't have a video camera at a demonstration. I guess no one saw a problem with Kentland getting their name dragged through the mud because they were clearly "wrong" but because you think you have some insider knowledge on this bonehead training burn, we need to keep the Department name out of it.

Hillandale VFD Companies 12 and 24. website is www.hvfd.org or something along those lines.

but that should have been obvious, since there wasn't a fistfight going on, too.

That sure shows your maturity level, but MOST of us already knew that. :rolleyes:

[ThNozzleman]

Noz, I see you have taken me off your ignore list.
I took everyone off except one...heh, heh.
Secondly, they are a publically funded organization and if they don't want their name out there when something like this happens, than don't have a video camera at a demonstration. I guess no one saw a problem with Kentland getting their name dragged through the mud because they were clearly "wrong" but because you think you have some insider knowledge on this bonehead training burn, we need to keep the Department name out of it.
So because PGC got busted by the media, you gotta out the other department for something that happened years ago. Real nice. And what point did it serve? Oh, yeah; it made you feel better. Right on, man.
That sure shows your maturity level, but MOST of us already knew that.
Righto, then. You're the one who felt it necessary to rat out another department, even when it really wasn't needed...real maturity, there. Cry me a river. Pitiful.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I took everyone off except one...heh, heh.


Then I feel completely validated. You are afraid of me. You are afraid of my facts. You are afraid of learning something. Nice!

BTW, still praying for you, buddy.

[Dalmatian190]

I do have mixed feelings on revealing the department, and I did defer to Nozz's wishes here even after finding out.

HOWEVER,

At the same time I pretty much have decided IF YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID, YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE DISGRACE ON YOURSELF.

Unfortunately, we now live in an age where not only "could" you be videotaped, the distribution of those tapes is no longer limited to friend-to-friend and took time to hook up two VCRs and dub copies, or expensive commercial distributions.

You will see these videos (since somehow we know dumbasses will continue to exist) in greater frequency, more timely to the event, and in greater resolution.

We're not that many years away from being at the point that you may find a video on the 'net of your fire by the time you're back in quarters. Or even while you're still on scene.

The opportunity to do dumb stuff and still remain "anonymous" is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.

============================== =================
Which brings up the one good thing about the "I Fight What You Fear" T-Shirts...

If someone is going to be a moron, at least I want them to be an anonymous whacker moron. Then being a moron wearing a shirt with my department's name in 6" letters emblazoned on it :)

[ThNozzleman]

At the same time I pretty much have decided IF YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID, YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE DISGRACE ON YOURSELF.
We all make mistakes and have done stupid things in our lives. Are we to research every training FUBAR video in the archives and ensure the department that was involved is taken to task and publicly admonished for their mistakes? Or can we just learn from their errors and make our own departments safer and better? There's a big difference between something like this, and something like fighting on the fireground or screwing with someone's safety equipment in a fire. Now THAT'S a lowdown disgrace.

[Dalmatian190]

I understand, and certainly sympathize, your point Nozz, unfortunately I think in a way you're tilting against a windmill --

There's a reason Goldfeder named his list "The Secret List" -- and it wasn't to protect anonymity (although usually he does).

It's because firefighters (and people) hear "Secret" and just have to find it out. So by calling it "Secret" is a marketing tool to help drive people there.

Sure, reports like NIOSH can try and anonymize much of the circumstances.

But you don't have control over videos and such that get released on the internet.

And while we shouldn't mock these departments, knowing the information will get out there anyways, it almost becomes incumbent on the organization to release some short blurb.

"While this video was not an official document of our organization, it is us. It was a training burn, 10 Firefighters and 1 Civilian where injured, 1 FF seriously.

Our organization will not publicly comment on the specifics of the video or circumstances until regulatory and legal proceding are complete. We are cooperating with government agencies and industry experts investigating the incident.

We recognize the importance of releasing more details on what occured for future safety of all firefighters, and we intend to release an official report when one can be issued without compromising on-going investigations or legal procedings."

[ThNozzleman]

I understand, and certainly sympathize, your point Nozz, unfortunately I think in a way you're tilting against a windmill --
Perhaps; but anyone give me one good reason as to why we just had to know the department involved in the video? Other than to stir up the crap?

[hwoods]

"While this video was not an official document of our organization, it is us. It was a training burn, 10 Firefighters and 1 Civilian where injured, 1 FF seriously.

Our organization will not publicly comment on the specifics of the video or circumstances until regulatory and legal proceding are complete. We are cooperating with government agencies and industry experts investigating the incident.

We recognize the importance of releasing more details on what occured for future safety of all firefighters, and we intend to release an official report when one can be issued without compromising on-going investigations or legal procedings."

So, Can I put you on retainer? Have your girl call my girl, we'll do lunch.......... :D :D :D :D :D

[HeidiLou]

[/QUOTE]
This was a very irresponsible demonstation, the only thing that provided to the children watching was a healthy dose of PTSD. WTF[/QUOTE]


LMFAO!!!! And prozac for all!!!