Ever been involved in an arson investigation?

[FrFtr28]

A recent fire we were first due on is under investigation and the fire marshalls are going to interview everyone that made the intial attack (which includes myself). Just wondering if anyone esle has ever been a part of an investigation and what exactly do you think the investigators are looking from me?

Thanks for any input.

[tfpd109]

They just want to know what you remember when you first went in. Was the door open? Was the chair there before overhaul? He's just trying to put peices of the puzzle together and anything you can tell him will help. But if you truly don't remember, don't make things up. I find it kind of fun to help in an arson investigation (have only done that twice).

[FrFtr28]

Seeing how it was 2:00 in the morning, everything is blury for the first 15 minutes of the attack. Another guy in my department has to go to court over a fire that was three years ago. I tried to write down everything the best I could remember it, so in case I get called in a couple years I have a written account.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

This brings up the importance of having a TRAINED INVESTIGATOR on the scene as soon as possible. It is a lot easier interviewing the first in crew and other potential sources of useful information when the information is still fresh. I enjoy the interviewing part as much as the cause and origin part of an investigation. All firefighters should be trained to look for indicators of a fires cause and to protect any potential evidence whenever possible. If you are being interviewed, ANSWER HONESTLY. If you don't remember something say so. It will save a lot of grief down the road. We should hear some from GWCFI and Steamer...2 very experienced Investigators... Much more so then me ....But I am getting better :D

[jmitchell]

A recent fire we were first due on is under investigation and the fire marshalls are going to interview everyone that made the intial attack (which includes myself). Just wondering if anyone esle has ever been a part of an investigation and what exactly do you think the investigators are looking from me?

Thanks for any input.

I received a subpoena about 3 years after an arson fire where I was part of an initial attack. They did not need too much from me. When I contacted the District Attorney about the subpoena, she advised that they would most likely not need us to come in but were subpoenaed just in case. There is not much we are able to provide other than yes the house was on fire.

If they ask you anything it will be limited to what you saw, did you see anything strange in the structure, were there spot fires, and suspicious persons on scene when you arrived. Just be honest and give them whatever they need to put the arsonist away, just answer hosestly.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

A recent fire we were first due on is under investigation and the fire marshalls are going to interview everyone that made the intial attack (which includes myself). Just wondering if anyone esle has ever been a part of an investigation and what exactly do you think the investigators are looking from me?

Thanks for any input.

The truth. That's it.

[CaptainGonzo]

I have been subpoenaed to appear at few depositions pertaining to fire and EMS incidents.

If you ever go to a call where your firefighter's intuition kicks in and it doesn't feel right and looks like there could be a court case... document everything you saw and did on your incident narrative. Even if you do it meticulously, a sharp barracuda of an attorney will attempt to trip you up. They wear the $1000+ plus suits, speak "legalese" and will try to intimidate you.

At the last deposition I had to go to, one of the attorneys spoke nothing but "legalese" when asking me questions. I answered using fire service terminology. When he asked the judge to make me say it in plain English, the Judge looked at the attorney and said "Quid pro quo, counselor... quid pro quo".

Once we were on a level playing field, things went smoothly.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

This brings up the importance of having a TRAINED INVESTIGATOR on the scene as soon as possible. It is a lot easier interviewing the first in crew and other potential sources of useful information when the information is still fresh. I enjoy the interviewing part as much as the cause and origin part of an investigation. All firefighters should be trained to look for indicators of a fires cause and to protect any potential evidence whenever possible. If you are being interviewed, ANSWER HONESTLY. If you don't remember something say so. It will save a lot of grief down the road. We should hear some from GWCFI and Steamer...2 very experienced Investigators... Much more so then me ....But I am getting better :D

Can I get an AMEN! from the brothers and the sisters in the house!

In the Gospel according to George, I preach that succesful fire investigations (one in which the actual origin and cause are determined to a scientific certainty) begin with the timely initiation of the investigation. I always wanted to be at the scene while suppression was taking place. There were several reasons:

1. It was important to interview fire fighters when their recollections were fresh. Also, it might be 4 days until I got the paid crew back. It might be who knows until I could hook up with a volunteer. Besides fresh recollections, there is also the aspect of resolving any discrepencies in the obervations of fire fighters with different perspectives.

2. It is unreasonable to expect that the FD is going to limit overhaul in the area of origin. However, that is the single most important factor in the accurate determination of the cause. If I am at the scene early, I can make the observations necessary to determine a general area of origin(s) and allow the FD to conduct overhaul operations in the other areas of the building I don't need after they are photographed. In addition, I can document the AO and actually conduct the scene exam while overhaul is in progress. Besides, having four big strong young FF to move the furniture and put it back where it belongs is a definite benefit when you are over 40.

3. If there are indications that a criminal act may be involved, I can secure the areas where evidence may be located and work with the FD to ensure that the integrity of the crime scene is weighed with the needs of the FD. I can then start working on the search warrant if need be.

4. The FD has lots of lights and tools so I don't have to get mine dirty.

5. Civilian witnesses are more likely to talk to me when all the radios are blaring, all the lights are flashing and all the Chiefs are screaming. When the excitement goes away, they revert to their usual "I don't want to get involved" mode and the info may be lost.

6. I want to interview the victim(s) before they have a chance to see what remains of the house or car. Example: I have a BMW with minor fire damage in the interior. Not enough damage to coverup the incendiary device on the front seat. Owner arrives at the scene and is kept up the road by PD. Go up to interview him and he proceeds to tell me what great shape the car is in (it wasn't) and how he has the only set of keys (in the ignition) and how the car had 30,000 or so miles (odometer said 60,000+) and on and on and on. Next stop-jail.

I have encountered very few FF who do not want to cooperate with me in my career. Those who chose not to, and had info that was important, found out about one of my other adages: "The man with the subpoenas always wins".

[CaptainGonzo]

Just for you, Brother...

AMEN!

[FB1138]

One thing that will help the investigator is to "try before you pry." When I interview the first team in, I'll ask them if the door was closed and was it locked or did you kick in the door without checking to see if it was open.

Were all the windows intact when you arrived, if not which ones were broken for ventilation and which ones vented themselves. Once inside what did you do.

Try to limit destruction during suppressiona and overhaul, especially if things don't seem right.

Just be honest and try to remember what details you can.

[don120]

The truth. That's it.


The truth and nothing more....

Don

[sublimecharger6]

just answer the questions as best you can.

Maybe write down everything you did/saw on paper before you even have to talk to them and then you can hand that to them and ask if they have any question's.

You are resource to Help the Arson Investigator due his job.

Also a time frame can be helpful. its hard to know the times but you can always go with best guess.
Paged at 19:00, Enroute at 19:04, arrival at 19:07, Made entry from back porch at 19:10 Etc

Though I don't know the time frame might come back to bite you in court?

Helps me out when I have to due a report for a fire. Is to go through and write it all down by myself that way have time to put things in order and such.


I have worked with some arson investigations and it is amazing to me how they can break the fire back down to how/why/where things happen.

sublime out

[fyrmnk]

A recent fire we were first due on is under investigation and the fire marshalls are going to interview everyone that made the intial attack (which includes myself). Just wondering if anyone esle has ever been a part of an investigation and what exactly do you think the investigators are looking from me?

Thanks for any input.

Just testified in an Agg. Arson case. I was the 1st in C.O. and the only line guy that got sent a subpoena. Was easy, just said what I saw and what I did. If you write reports, make sure you are always thorough and accurate. Our investigator had the hard time on the stand, but the jury came back guilty, which isn't always common in arsons.

[Dalmatian190]

I always wanted to be at the scene while suppression was taking place.

That's one thing that's always annoyed me in my area George...

You often don't hear for the Fire Marshal to even be notified until late into incidents. In my area, the FM's exclusively do origin & cause investigations.

In some cases, this isn't necessary (Fire Marshal responded as a member of the local volunteer fire company, and switched to FM mode when he could).

Other times, a hour or so in the Chief will finally ask for the Fire Marshal.

I can see not having the FM's notified with the initial dispatch (no need for food on stove / chimney fires / etc minor stuff)...but you would think as soon as it's confirmed fire it would be standard practice to notify them.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

As far as court goes...

In every arson case I took to trial, our first witness out of the box was ALWAYS a FF. Full uniform. Medals and badges up the ying-yang. Why? Next to Cheverolet and apple pie, people admire and trust FF (most of the jury doesn't read this forum).

Court is like a play. At a play, there is a set. The set gives you the feel of actually being in the play, at the time of the play. Although there is no physical set in court, we want that FF to paint a picture for the jury. We want that jury to feel, see, taste and smell what the FF's did. There will be enough mystical scientific mumbo-jumbo later. We want the jury to know that fire is HOT; smoke is so thick you can't see your ===== when you're peeing; FF'ing is tough work; victims really suffer in a fire.

If we are succesful in doing that-we win. We have the jury on our side. Having a FF as the lead witness offers the State a bonus shot at a positive start for the case.

[BFDLT32]

For George

AMEN

We have forms that the first due firefighters complete either at the scene or at the station after the fire. It contains most of the questions that have been submitted already. In addition we ask for the running route of the apparatus that they were on. It may sound like a silly question but it has paid off. In one case the apparatus actually passed the suspect vehicle and the crew remembered it. Worked well in court when the FF's made that statement. Can you say conviction!!!! Again, be honest and do not make up details.

[Steamer]

A couple of things that I would add to (or at least reinforce) what George has said.
1. First of all, tell the truth. It should go without saying, but especially on the stand or any other time you're under oath.
2. Do not make assumptions or guesses in your statements or testimony. If you don't know, say so. That's not a crime. Lying is, and few things can turn a really good case to crap in short order.
3. Don't try to "make the case" for anybody. Juries can often see right through that. Besides...we're after the truth. Not the conviction of innocent people.
4. Give the details that you know as fact, answering questions honestly, and you'll be fine. Same for court. If you tell the truth, nobody can screw you up. If the defense attorney tries to turn your words around, the Prosecutor will deal with it. That's his job, not yours.
5. Leave the FD lingo at the firehouse. Don't use words like "the knob" for the nozzle, "the line" for "fire hose" or "plug" for "fire hydrant". While the investigator understands what you're saying, the statements are often reviewed by attornies, and they understand some of the lingo we use about as well as we understand their lingo. Same with testimony. We want the jury to understand things. Constantly defining FD vernacular screws up the flow of the Prosectors presentation, confuses the jury, and the facts will often get lost on the verbal clutter.

I'm a big proponent of FD crews taking pictures if at all possible prior to overhaul. It has helped me more times than I can say, and thrilled our Prosecutor to death. If nothing else, they can serve as good training at a later date for fire crews.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

For George

AMEN

We have forms that the first due firefighters complete either at the scene or at the station after the fire. It contains most of the questions that have been submitted already. In addition we ask for the running route of the apparatus that they were on. It may sound like a silly question but it has paid off. In one case the apparatus actually passed the suspect vehicle and the crew remembered it. Worked well in court when the FF's made that statement. Can you say conviction!!!! Again, be honest and do not make up details.

I used these forms on occassion, too. However, I just as often was using them when I was investigating a FF as a possible suspect.

[FrFtr28]

Here is an update on the fire I was referring to. It was finally ruled arson, after a huge investigation. Still no word on who started it, though.

Original Story (http://www.meadvilletribune.com/siteSearch/apstorysection/local_story_024233015.html)

Fire ruled arson (http://www.meadvilletribune.com/siteSearch/apstorysection/local_story_028225710.html)


Two weeks after that fire... (http://www.meadvilletribune.com/siteSearch/apstorysection/local_story_035201315.html)

No word yet on if the second fire was arson, I'm guessing not.

[Dickey]

I am the investigator for my department and want to say....yeah, what George said. The truth and nothing more. Don't make things up.

oh, and.......

AMEN!!!

:D :D