Squeezing resources - this time Paducah, KY

[ullrichk]

As reported by the local NBC affiliate:


Kentucky: Paducah Task Force Study Suggests Fire Department Cuts

Written By: Brooks Ware

Tuesday, December 20, 2005

Paducah city leaders revealed a study Tuesday that could cut Paducah's Fire Department by 13 percent. A task force was appointed to study the city's fire services in June.

Among the recommendations, is a hiring freeze that would cut eight positions through retirement. That would leave the department with 60 men, with 17 fire fighters on duty instead of 20. Those cuts could eventually mean closing one fire station. The study also suggests eliminating unproductive medical assists. That's where a fire truck responds every time an ambulance goes out.

Paducah City Commissioner Buz Smith headed the task force of City Manager Jim Zumwalt and Fire Chief Redell Benton. Smith says cutting eight positions could save the city more than $600,000 a year. "If we do that, we should be able to save 55 percent of our costs which would more than compensate for savings in the fire department."

That would leave the fire department with 60 men and 17 fire fighters on duty each shift. The city would then consider closing a fire station. President of Paducah's Fire Fighter Union, Barry Carter says that would be detrimental to everyone's safety. "It would limit us to only be able to respond to one structure fire. So, if your home catches on fire when someone else's does, you're not going to get immediate service like you're accustomed to getting. You're taxes aren't going down, but your protection is."

Carter points to the Ingram Barge fire last month that took 15 fire fighters to put out, leaving only three to cover the rest of the city. But, the study says the number of building fires is steadily declining; more than 200 in 1978, compared to 68 a year between 1999 and 2004. Smith, "When you've got less incidents of fire it's good business to look at ways to reduce costs."

According to the task force study, only eight to nine percent of calls go to actual structure fires; compared to first responder calls, which account for 63 percent. Commissioner Buz Smith says first responder calls could be cut in half if fire fighters only respond to serious accidents. Barry Carter says it's once again a case of public safety. "What is one person's emergency is not another person's emergency. So, we want to respond and help everyone."

The cuts won't be voted on for a few weeks. If you would like to see a copy of the task force report, just go to our homepage and click on newslinks.

The link to the study is here. (http://paducahky.gov/city/general_government/Public_Information_Officer/NewsNotesAnnouncements.php)

Paducah has a population of about 26,000, but has a larger commercial economic base than the population would suggest.

I'd like to know more from the locals since I'm just down the road in Union City.

[CaptainGonzo]

This is another classic example of the mutts thinking with the wallet instead of the brain.

Money is the buzzword...so let's add a word to what can really cost the city of Paducah a lot of moolah....

Liability.

I see it as saving $600K or the potential of being sued for inadequate response for $6 million.

[ullrichk]

Seventeen firefighters for a city the size of Paducah makes for some mighty thin staffing in my opinion, though I don't know thier policy on callbacks.

I really don't think the powers-that-be understand the risk to their community or to safety of their firefighters. It's penny-wise and pound foolish.

[Smoke20286]

Politicians are all the same, lying sacks of sh&* playing with peoples lives means nothing to them.

A great man recently said that, oh wait, it was me

[S8ER95Z]

The City I live in (Clinton, IA..just moved out of actually) has Forty-five full-time FFs and its Population is only 27,772. 17 is not enough.

[S8ER95Z]

Nevermind I see they meant breakdown by shift... so they have 60 total? Makes me wonder how Clinton gets by?

[hwoods]

I would assume the the Chief is going along in order to avoid HIS job from being cut, instead of someone else's. If allowing 8 to retire means closing a station, then that station must be running a single Engine with three people per shift. Cutting back on responding to EMS calls? Crazy. Period. This Chief should be fighting for more, not giving away the farm. For a community this size, which is based on what I see in my Rand McNally, (26,601 pop in '98, 26,307 in '04) They should have 3 Engines, 2 Trucks, and a Heavy Rescue with minimum staffing of Four on each unit, operating out of 3 stations. That would be 24 per shift, plus a Chief. Smart move would be to add 6 medics per shift, buy 3 Ambulances and run the City's EMS service. If they run like we do here, each unit would run about 1,333 calls per year, or a department total of 4,000. Then bill insurance carriers for the Ambulance ride at $300.00 per trip. Half of them pay, and you've got $600,000.00 per year income. Add other things like a Fee for plans review, administrative penalty for repeated False alarm signals, say $500.00 per False Automatic Alarm after 3 "Free" trips per year. And the list could go on and on.

[hwoods]

The City I live in (Clinton, IA..just moved out of actually) has Forty-five full-time FFs and its Population is only 27,772. 17 is not enough.

I agree. What I do fail to understand is why places like this don't have a hundred or so Volunteers as well. There is no reason for having a chronically understaffed department, while still maintaining that all personnel must be full time. I think I used this word before: Stupid.

[NonSurfinCaFF]

I love these people who keep trying to use buisness models and apply it to government. The one I keep hearing about is just in time inventory, the idea being you keep just enough on hand to run day to day and if you need a little extra you can get more overnight. Works great if you are K-Mart, not so great if you are fighting a war or running an emergency.

There is a slight difference between saying "sorry Mrs. Jones but the parts didn't come in so your car won't be ready until tommorrow" and saying "sorry Mrs. Jones but little Timmy will have to just wait in his bedroom over the fire. The fire department is tied up on another fire right now, but don't worry, they should be done in a couple of hours, then they will get right on it".
You wouldn't thinkit would be so hard for people to understand there is a difference between running Walmart and running a public safety agency, but apparently that is beyond comprehension for the vast majority these days.

[NonSurfinCaFF]

I agree. What I do fail to understand is why places like this don't have a hundred or so Volunteers as well. There is no reason for having a chronically understaffed department, while still maintaining that all personnel must be full time. I think I used this word before: Stupid.

I agree with you 100%, with all the people trying to get hired by fire departments there is no reason I can think of for almost every department to have some sort of "real" reserve program (by real I mean where the volunteers actually work, not the glorified explorer posts many have in California where the reserves are basically just observers), even the major metro departments like LA or SF could use the extra help during major disasters and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt during routine emergencies either.

I run 5 on my engine but I would never turn down a 6th body even if that required a little extra work for me and the extra body was a perpetual rookie, an extra pair of hands is an extra pair of hands.

[Dave1983]

Hmmm, another lets cut back on the FD story. Id be interested to know if they are also talking of cutting the PD, or public works, or the library, or the parks department. Probably not. But once again, whose fault is it? Ours. Our continued failure to educate the mutts. PD does a good job at it, but for some reason we dont:rolleyes:

Wish I had the answer...

[Bones42]

Gasp! Choke! Gag! You wonder why these paid departments aren't asking volunteers to help? While their having paid positions cut? :eek:

[S8ER95Z]

Yeah the least of the Union guys worries should be 'am I getting a raise' it should be 'will I still have a job'.. this downsizing is pretty scary especially with no one filling in the gaps.

When will they figure out that magic coverage number? When they go too low and it costs a few lives?

[hwoods]

Gasp! Choke! Gag! You wonder why these paid departments aren't asking volunteers to help? While their having paid positions cut? :eek:

Shouldn't be the paid department asking, should be a group of "Real World" people figuring out the problem, and coming up with a solution. As I said above, This department's management is looney enough to try to get out of running EMS calls, I certainly don't think there are any rocket scientists there. Some folks get all bent out of shape when the subject is brought up, but a true combination system is the most cost effective to operate, AND, the one system that consistently puts people on the Fireground. I've just returned from a Fire, Box Alarm plus a Task Force, Auto Repair Shop fully involved. 6 Engines, 3 Trucks, A Squad, and Chiefs and Support Units. Those units were staffed with Career and Volunteer Firefighters and Officers, totaling 82 people. All command staff positions were filled by using 3 Career and 5 Volunteer Chief Officers. Things went very well with no problems. And that's the way it can be wherever people are willing to work together, without all the Career/Volunteer BS. :cool:

[cozmosis]

My department protects a city of approx. 15,000 with 13 career firefighters and 14 volunteer firefighters. Career staffing is three shifts of four FFs and one floater. Average vollie response is 4-5. Currently, cover some 10 square miles out of one station.

While looking at building two new stations to replace our one, we discussed minimum staffing to open both stations (chief says 18) and desired staffing (24 FFs). The mayor wanted to know why we couldn't just put one man at the second station and he could drive the truck wherever it was needed to meet the other firefighters at the call. :rolleyes: A lot of people still think trucks put out fires and save lives. Everyone seems to forget about the people needed to staff them.

The people who control the strings on our funding do not understand the job we do. In our case, we take every possibly opportunity to explain... but I'm not sure how successful we are. For folks used to a M-F, 8-5 world... Operating an organization that must be ready to work at a moment's notice with adequate personnel 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is a hard concept.

[tman57]

The Paducah Fire Chief did strongly oppose the task force reduction scenarios. Even though he was on the task force he reportedly was not even invited to some of their meetings. The way it went down at the City Council meeting was like this: The Commissioner who was on the task force gave a brief, and I must admit, accurate PowerPoint presentation that ended with several options ranging from keeping the current minimum manning daily staffing level or drawing it down by attrition (retirements). No Layoffs! Options to be decided on by the Council at a later date. The Fire Chief was then allowed to speak and he strongly voiced his objections to any reductions. The high point (climax is no longer politically correct) was when the mayor asked the FC if on multiple alarm situations could the FD decide which one was an emergency. The FC responded "They’re all emergencies to us mayor". This drew a loud but respectful applause from the FFs in attendance.

The union pres. spoke next and gave a nice prepared speech with a few inaccuracies. One inaccuracy was when he began by saying he did not have time to prepare when it was obvious he did. He said he had not seen the report until that night but in fact he had the rough draft for at least two weeks prior. His good points touched on the safety of FFs and their ability to do their assigned jobs on a fire scene if the daily minimum manning levels were lowered. Also he elaborated on the inevitable situation of longer response times and that PFDs quick response skewed the fire data because sometimes extinguishers were used instead of needing to lay out hose, multiple alarms leaving the city unprotected, liability of not following NFPA min. manning standards (from his looks he ought not to mention NFPA 1582). etc. etc. However, when asked by a Commissioner about the union leaderships dealings with surrounding VFDs at a meeting concerning Mutual Aid (currently non- auto MA with all VFDS) there was some inaccurate statements made by the union pres. as to his no help wanted message he gave to theVFDs. The organizational culture of the PFD labor has been to mistreat VFD personnel in the past. Even if they brought their kids by a station to see a fire truck VFFs were give the cold shoulder and more sometimes. Very cold and sometimes hostile attitudes on emergency scenes where a VFD just happened to be a bystander and offer help. Little, almost no MA operations in the past (maybe the PFD Ladder Truck sent out to drown a bigger fire or a VFD mobile air unit brought in to assist PFD.) Any fool should be able to recognize the childishness of this attitude. A couple of points for example: the vast majority of PFD paid FFs live in VFD areas. Also, with just 69 total FFs the PFD will need VFDs if the big S%*t hits the fan.

The city (Paducah)of only 26,000 evening residents contains the regions major commercial district with many hotels, 2 huge hospitals and supporting medical offices, interstate and rail transportation corridors, very large crowds at seasonal special events and entertainment and convention venues, local state federal governmental courts &offices with crucial document storage, business and banking office district, downtown historic district(a big hazard), schools colleges big churches, Inland waterway shoreline facilities along the Ohio River, and the regions large above ground petroleum storage facility adjacent to dense residential areas, etc. etc. The point is that the PFD protects more than just 26,000 residents and who knows how many hotel customers, daytime workers, shoppers, and passers through, the infrastructure they protect is crucial to the economic stability of the entire region. Considering a large part of this infrastructure does not generate much revenue for the city complicates things. The FD is a costly necessary public service. Paid FDs are like lawyers in a way, you can’t really appreciate them until you need them to get your bump out of trouble.

PFD does First Responder but the local hospitals own the EMS operation which is first class (lots and lots of great equipment, new stations, excellent staff, operate in the black ink, etc.) which is why PFD does not transport. Task force has asked EMS to not tap out PFD if their unit is closer. Also Tforce wants EMS dispatch consolidated with 911 to filter calls better (example: not send FD when caller states the need ride to hospital because they sprained their ankle last week and it hurts a little more today.) Currently 911 Central Dispatch transfers medical calls to EMS who then dispatches their own ambulances and requests 911 operator listening in to dispatch FD. No opportunity for revenue here folks. They are good. No merger is foreseeable.

What do you do eventually if the $$s are not there for the FD? The task force (basically The CM and the one Commissioner) suggest the FD look into ways to support a reduced min. manning level if the need arises (as it probably will). MA may or may not be the answer. It’s a long-term answer that needs to be developed and would have to withstand management and political environment changes along the way. Pagers for off duty FFs with pay for responding to paged incidents and OT if needed upon arrival. Just maintaining current staffing levels by increasing the use of OT by existing FFs and freezing hiring upon retirements may result in savings. These alternatives need to be looked at. One of you uses the quote "THE DEADLIEST WORDS EVER SPOKEN TO A YOUNG FIREFIGHTER FROM AN OLD FIREFIGHTER..."SON, WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT THIS WAY..NO NEED TO CHANGE IT.." may have some meaning within the management realm as well as the operations realm. In business management classes they always use the example of the horse buggy whip manufacturer at the turn of the century that did not recognize the need to change and eventually went belly up with the invention of automobiles. I say don’t let yourself get caught up in the propaganda of the IAFF or the ICMA. Compromise, adapt, overcome in order to fulfill the mission and protect the vital fire service organization in the long-term. Think outside the box. If you live in a box all your life, you won’t know anything except what little is inside the box. Two words that come to my mind could end not being a choice but a necessity are merger and metro.

[Dalmatian190]

That, Tman, is one of the most articulate, well written, and well reasoned posts I've seen on FH since this all began many moons ago...

[Dalmatian190]

Ok, how I spent my christmas night: Reading Paducah's fire report and annual budget.

Someone shoot this old dog and put me out of my pathetic misery :)

Ok, any way:

1) The report is, eh. Not bad, not great...kind of reminds me of something a college kid would be proud to type up.

The fundemental problem with the fire service is until is we're tough to statistically manage since we exist primarily to prevent infrequent, major losses.

It's an issue where you have to argue qualitatively, not quantatively...and at that level it simply becomes local politics.

2) The City Budget...hmmm, long term history of expenses going up faster than taxes. But taxes going up very modestly -- like 1.5% per year (v. wage increases, inflation, etc around 3%).

Paducah doesn't rely heavily on property taxes...they have a local income tax and other fees. But property tax is still their #2 revenue source and one of their goals is to cut it from $3/1000 to $2.50/1000...for an annual reduction in property taxes of $675,000.

Hmmm...

Certainly given the demographics Paducah isn't a failing city. This isn't a case where tax base is disappearing -- this is a city that could hold steady but instead is cutting taxes.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

The City of Paducah is spending a sh*tload of money on local CHICAGO radio with ads touting its virtues as a progressive place to live and do business. I have a question for you Tman. How many local VFD'S surround Paducah? Should they tap into Illinois departments? Paducah is an old river town and in my opinion, depending on volunteers from other departments is doing those towns a great disservice.

[TruckSkipper]

12/22/2005
Town mulling emergency services consolidation
By: Lauren Burgoon , Staff Writer

Consolidation could save taxpayers $500,000 to $1 million a year in costs (Dec. 22)

WASHINGTON — "Let me make this perfectly clear: the fire district has become financially unstable and this problem cannot be corrected by short-term Band-Aids or tax rate increases."
So reads a line in a fire district memo sent Monday by Fire Commission Chairman Rob Hutchinson to all staff and volunteers. The district's financial situation is so shaky that, based on information in the memo, simply maintaining services at the current level would require a 34 percent jump in fire tax bills by 2008.
It's an increase that is unsustainable, Mr. Hutchinson said this week, and one that could lead to the town dissolving the fire district, taking over all fire operations and lumping police and fire services under one public safety department.
Consolidating fire and emergency medical services under municipal purview is in the earliest stages of investigation and no one is sure if the incorporation will occur.
But Mayor Dave Fried said Monday that early projections show the consolidation could save taxpayers $500,000 to $1 million a year in costs, streamline emergency services and possibly improve response times. A sizable portion of those savings could come from laying off an estimated eight firefighters — one-third of the current paid staff. The fire chief position would be retained and the fire and polices chiefs would be responsible to the mayor under consolidation.
"It's getting to the point where we won't be able to keep up with the (fire) tax increases," Mayor Fried said. "Combining the police, fire and EMTs seems like the right thing to do."
Consolidating the fire district and police could bring administrative cost savings, Mayor Fried said. He pegged the savings on shared legal services, billing and other operations that could be handled by township employees, and pension payments from the layoffs.
"I know some people will say we're anti-firefighter or anti-public safety, but I look at fire companies in towns like East Windsor, Hopewell and Bordentown that run on $1.5 million. I'm suggesting we go down to a $2 million budget. We'll still be spending more money (than nearby towns) but I think we have a better service," Mayor Fried said.
The firefighters' union presIdent, Jason Palmer, could not be reached Tuesday for comment.
Mr. Hutchinson said there are benefits both to maintaining the district and seeing it dissolved and brought under municipal operations. He declined to comment further on consolidation, citing his position as an outgoing fire commissioner who is not seeking re-election in February, when the fire district holds its annual elections.
The fire commissioners will have no power to stop the district's consolidation if the plan moves forward. The move requires a petition signed by 5 percent of registered voters (368 signatures), a public hearing and Township Council vote.
As is stands now, the fire district is an independent body that taxes residents to pay for operations. The fire district has few options to fix financial problems other than raising taxes. Taxes constitute more than 90 percent of annual budgets, with grants and funds from the Department of Community Affairs making up the rest.
Amid explosive growth in recent years, the district hired more and more paid staff, eventually reaching 25. During that time, the state pension plan experienced a surplus and did not require fire districts to make contributions into funds.
"That was a benefit to us, but no one took into account that would stop someday and we'd have to pay back into the fund at higher rates," Mr. Hutchinson said.
Pension contributions, plus health-care costs, gasoline and other expenses "have seriously impacted the district's long-term financial outlook," Mr. Hutchinson's letter to the fire staff said.
Staff cuts are possible even if the fire district is not consolidated into the Department of Public Safety. The district only has so much control over costs and one immediate area of savings is cutting positions and the salary, benefits and pension costs associated with each spot.
Consolidating with the township does not come easily or quickly. Municipal officials need to ensure the town can take on fire and emergency medical operations without harming service standards or response times. It will require weeks of study, which has already begun.
One issue under examination is emergency medical response. Currently there are three to four firefighters on fire duty and two emergency medical technicians (EMTs) on ambulance duty per shift. To compensate for the expected staff cuts under consolidation, police officers would be trained as EMTs and could be used as backup when the on-duty staff responds to emergencies.
There are public safety considerations too and how much focus would be put on fire operations if lumped under one public safety department.
"The nice part of a fire district is there is a clear and concise mission to run a Fire Department," Mr. Hutchinson said.
The district's budget deals solely with fire and emergency services, which would not be the case if the department were included in municipal operations. However, Mr. Hutchinson pointed out, consolidation also means one less election each year to pick fire commissioners and vote on the budget and none of the hassle that goes along with that election.
Calling public safety "paramount," Mayor Fried said dissolving the fire district would not move forward if residents' safety would be compromised. If studies show consolidation will work, he said, a final plan could come before the Township Council for a vote before the Feb. 18 fire district election.
Barring consolidation, the fire district is exploring its own options, which include the possible staff cuts and consolidating all administrative duties under one clerk. The district also could amend plans to buy new a new fire engine and ambulance in favor of less expensive models.
Meanwhile, the fire district is moving ahead with plans for its 2006 budget regardless of its future. The total 2006 budget is $2.8 million, of which $2.5 million will be raised from taxes. The proposed tax rate is 27 cents per $100 of assessed property value, up 1 cent from this year. Budget approval means a resident with a house assessed at the township average of $175,000 will pay $472 in fire taxes next year, an increase of $17.
The district decided to keep the tax rate as flat as possible while options for its financial future are explored, Mr. Hutchinson said.
Mr. Hutchinson and Commissioner Nate Bouchelle are not seeking re-election. Each seat is for three years. Interested candidates can pick up a petition at the fire station on Route 130. Petitions are due Jan. 20.

[Bones42]

but no one took into account that would stop someday and we'd have to pay back into the fund at higher rates That seems to be happening more and more...people only planning for now and not the future at all.

[TruckSkipper]

BONES SAY's "That seems to be happening more and more...people only planning for now and not the future at all."

When you say "people" I hope you are not referring to the hard working Firefighters and Police Officers of this great state. We know all along but nobody would listen or didn't care. We hate to tell ya we told ya so but..................... Read below.


Background and Summary of Complaint
Pension Protection Action
Professional Firefighters Association of New Jersey, IAFF, AFL-CIO
New Jersey State Fraternal Order of Police
Tuesday, October 4, 2005


The Police and Firemen’s Retirement System of New Jersey (PFRS) held a surplus of approximately $938,000,000 in FY2000 drawing down to a deficit of approximately $3,574,000,000 for FY2004. This $4.5 billion dollar deterioration is largely the result of legislation (S-2586 of 2003) that permitted municipal employers of law enforcement officers and firefighters to defer and discount employer required contributions to the PFRS, in association with the State of New Jersey’s own failure to make required contributions. During this same time frame, police officers and firefighters continued to make their own statutorily required contributions totaling 8.5% of their base annual salaries, one, if not the highest public safety employee pension contribution rate in the Nation.

The State of New Jersey and its municipalities were first relieved of their obligations make employer required contributions in 1997, when legislation was enacted that revised the method of accounting and valuing plan assets. Under this new and more creative method of accounting, the value of PFRS assets was purposely and substantially increased, resulting in intended excess or more accurately, inflated assets. Accordingly, the State and its municipalities used those enhanced assets as a manner in which to relieve themselves of their obligation to match employee contributions for the purpose of tax relief. Despite the “free ride” afforded to both the State and municipalities, police officers and firefighters remained obligated, and so did they continue, to contribute 8.5% of their base annual salaries for which they have neither sought nor been granted any similar relief.

In 2003, with those self-created inflated assets running dry, despite facing a growing PFRS deficit, and in order to provide continued budgetary relief to municipalities who had by their own admission made no provisions whatsoever to resume employer contributions, the State Treasurer proposed, and the Legislature adopted, an initiative (S-2586) permitting municipalities to pay only a discounted fraction of their required pension contributions. Adding insult to injury, despite the fact that the foregoing legislation in no way extended the State a like ability to skip or discount badly needed pension contributions, they did so nonetheless, paying only a fraction of their required obligation. Again, and to this day as we go forward, police officers and their firefighter counterparts remain obligated to contribute 8.5% of their base annual salaries serving as the sole and sustaining guaranteed plan income.

As a result of the aforementioned legislation, and in association with the States non-legislated failure to required contributions, the PFRS funding ratio, which indicates the financial soundness of the plan, has fallen from 105.65 % for FY2000, to 100.85% for FY2001, to 95.82% for FY2002, to 88.45% for FY2003 and to 83.95% for FY2004.

Enactment of the 2003 legislation, in association with the State’s failure to make their own proper contributions absent legal legislative authority, deprives the PFRS of the funds necessary to maintain it on a sound actuarial reserve basis. An undeniable consequence of this failed scheme is the alarmingly significant reduction in plan earnings from investments and interest that would have been derived from skipped and substandard contributions. The foregoing serving to jeopardize the financial soundness of the plan and its ability to make good on earned benefits as they come due in the future. In that regard, the complete and total lack of prudent fiscal judgment demonstrated by the strategy articulated in S-2586, relying upon the exclusive use of employee contributions to either sustain or accordingly grow the plan, that resulted in the type of significant funding losses sustained over the last several years represents an abdication of fiduciary responsibilities in its purest form.

The complaint seeks to declare the 2003 legislation (S-2586) unconstitutional, to end any conflict of interest that would allow the State Treasurer to determine type and variety of contributions aside from statutory law, and to direct defendants to make regular full payments to the PFRS for FY2004, FY2005, and beyond, in accordance with fiscally responsible actuarial calculations.

The plaintiffs, Professional Firefighters Association of New Jersey, I.A.F.F.-AFL-CIO, and the New Jersey State Fraternal Order of Police, along with representative active and retired members and widows of members of these two unions who have been affected by this failure to adequately fund the plan, are represented by the law firm of Greenberg, Dauber, Epstein & Tucker of Newark. The PFANJ/IAFF and NJFOP represent the majority of career professional firefighters and law enforcement officers throughout the State of New Jersey and this Nation.

[Bones42]

When you say "people" I hope you are not referring to the hard working Firefighters and Police Officers of this great state. Hey now, I'm one of those (kind of). No, I was referring to the politicians and "administration" people that are more worried about getting re-elected then what they are doing to everyone's future. They won't raise taxes/fees/etc because they want to stay "in favor" even though they know the increases will be that much more in the later years.

[CaptainGonzo]

Hey now, I'm one of those (kind of). No, I was referring to the politicians and "administration" people that are more worried about getting re-elected then what they are doing to everyone's future. They won't raise taxes/fees/etc because they want to stay "in favor" even though they know the increases will be that much more in the later years.

To quote my esteemed brother hfd66truck from Harwich Massachusetts...

Bing-freakin-oh!

[BD6413]

[QUOTE=TrojanHorse]Not for nothing, but how do you know what is a serious call until you get there?


Listen to your dispatch....listen to the radio in the cab while enroute...and above all call the dispatcher and ask if you're unsure. Some hints from the initial dispatch give clues.

..."In the area of", ..."Across from", ..."Next to" - Good leads to potential Working Structure Fires. Not always accurate but they are good clues


With regards to budget cuts.....Who are the ones that City Fathers always want to cut when $$$$ gets tight ? Fire and Police. Why ? because it's easy, doesn't affect the saleries of the Mayors, City Council Representitives. When was the last time you've herd of a City or Town laying off it's Public Works Staff because not as many leaves fell this year as last year ? or Recycling is down so maybe we can cut some of the inflated salaried positions of garbage collectors...........RIGHT !!!!

[ullrichk]

tman57:

I've been out of the loop for a week or so. Thanks for the scoop. I'll be watching with interest.

[Engine32]

Staffing gets worst the further south you get, it seems.

My career department's minimum is 13 (EMS is third service) and our population is now over 72,000 including ETJ.

Combination departments are even worse. A department I work for in the county staffs 2 FFs 24/7, sometimes supplemented by volunteers, often not, and the population has exceeded 40K.

[WillGriffin1]

Tman hit the nail on the head on many points.

One problem Paducah has, as do other municipalities is the basic funding issue and elected officials, who just don't get it. They don't get it, because they are not sufficiently educated in a compelling and reasonable way. The FF union official in Paducah not accurately representing the facts to enahnace his position, actually in paradox did himself and the paid FF more harm than good and a major disservice.

The onus on educating these elected officials, rests solely with the fire department...and this is as true for VFD as it is for PFD. In my VFD Management Course I'm developing (also working with the VFC & NFA on this), I made this one of the first modules per dealing with the politics and educating elected officials. It would appear that Paducah needs to seriously look at the next RPFs for SAFER grants as an option.

Another problem is mixing the VFD and PFD populations. Even the VFD are facing staffing issues with dwindling numbers. The cultural bias of "SOME" PFD is a problem too. However, I found that any PFD, who is condescending to a VFD, are usually those who are ego-threatened and job security threatened; because the VFD member has taken the time, effort and initiative to get the training, where they are then far more trained, skilled, professional and better FF than those ego-threatend guys who are paid . . . no wonder the PFD is resistant and hostile to the VFD. However, if this condition exists, look at a fire chief who needs to be replaced, because they are demonstrating very poor human resource management skills.

What I found to be true in 33 years of experience, for both PFD & VFD, is that those guys with the biggest egos and attitudes are usually the least able and professional, and those who look at the term "public servant" not as their job title, but as their job description are the folks you want on the hose line or on top of the ladder with you...because you can count on them, beyond the fact that they are those who even better know what they are doing. In my community, we have mostly VFD in 3 departments, with one department having some paid, mostly doubling doing the EMS (BLS & ALS) calls. They do fine there, but at a fire scene, the VFD guys are those who really know what they're doing and if the paid guys were at the lead, we would have at least one more EMS call with each fire scene.

Budget cuts and reduced staffing are a reality for both PFD & VFD. In smaller communities a mixture is going to prove to be what will be necessary, for both PFD needing more staff and VFD needing on-site folks because of their dwindling numbers. If the VFD FF were to get a tax credit for their service, perhaps this would encourage more volunteers, while also buffering the differentiation between PFD & VFD . . . and if the VFD, in addition to fighting the fires they are well trained to do, also get the jobs of re-packing the hose bed, so be it . . . because I've seen some situations where they were those who knew how to do it (and other important tasks) best.

Will Griffin
VFD-Funding.com

[ModernGeek]

This is my hometown, I am a volunteer in the county. They keep annexing our district, taking away any revenue we would get from a business, but then they leaving everything not tax worthwhile over for us. I can answer any questions you guys might have.

[doughesson]

The City of Paducah is spending a sh*tload of money on local CHICAGO radio with ads touting its virtues as a progressive place to live and do business. I have a question for you Tman. How many local VFD'S surround Paducah? Should they tap into Illinois departments? Paducah is an old river town and in my opinion, depending on volunteers from other departments is doing those towns a great disservice.

Having lived outside of Paducah for 7 years,McCracken County has 5 volunteer departments.Mine was Reidland Farley Fire Department.
The reason they are trying to draw people is to repopulate the downtown area known as Lowertown.It's called artist relocation and NO it doesn't involve a tranquilizer gun and putting a radio collar on the relocated artist.They run longtime residents out so the houses can be rebuilt.Think "Yuppieland".
My old volunteer department has a far better response time than the city does since they have a ladder truck at the main station just sitting unstaffed to "save money".Rudell Benton himself said that the response time for volunteers was an hour,but he was referring to how long it took to get the ladder manned and going when it's needed.I'm not sure on which alphabet agency decides response times but we need to be out the door in 6 minutes from the tones and we beat that more often than not.
If you think that a city calling on volunteer departments for mutual aid is a bad idea,you must not be aware of the requirement that volunteer departments meet the same training standards as paid full time firefighters.We might not train as often as the paid guys but we are held to the same standards.
On my old department are officers certified at state and federal levels as instructors,all of the paramedics work for the local ambulance service, a member or two who work at the airport as firefighters and even folks on the fire brigade at the nuclear enrichment plant.
The rest of us drive delivery trucks,worked in hospitals,stores computer businesses and we even had a couple Sheriff's Deputies on the job.
Tapping into Metropolis Il's services won't work.They don't cross state lines to begin with and my department is 12 miles from the state line on I-24.The first exit that is in PFD's district is at mile 3 on I-24.We do have mutual aid agreements with the other departments in the county and nearby counties.
I'll try to hook up with a current member as some of the answers may have changed in the year since I left and I don't like giving incorrect info out.
I do hope this helps you some.
http://www.reidlandfarley.com

[FFFRED]

That report is one of the most statistically inaccurate and poorly structured reports I've ever seen posted on the forums.

I won't even bother to address the lack of sufficient data to base any decisions on. This chief only needed to outline what tasks need to be accomplished at a fire and which ones he can't even accomplish with the current staffing and then highlight what will happen when they reduce their companies.

This City manager(who probably dropped out of 10th Grade) only sampled from one week to come to his conclusions....it would be laughable to anyone with even a basic college education in statistics that this hillbilly dope would even pretend to come to some conclusions based on his limited and misapplied findings. When examining something as varied and complicated as seasonal fire dept responses, it takes much more than just one week in one month (October) to come to any educated conclusions.

I suppose if the members of the Union really thought about their families and their well being, they would just shoot water from the outside and refuse entry based on their size up and the lack of forthcoming resources.

Remember there are countless fire service texts which place firefighter safety ahead of anything else and furthermore, reports and papers on how many men it really takes to remove a downed fireman. Showing up with 6 to 9 men for a fire is a joke and should be considered by any union man as unacceptable.

Also put this City Managers address on the chalk board of any firehouse, just to make sure no one breaks any bones trying to rescue this coward and his spawn. This man is actively campaigning to further endanger your lives...no reason to loose yours attempting to save his.

Best of luck brothers...sounds like you are going to need it.

FTM-PTB

PS- Remember the IAFF didn't sit enough members to vote on 1710, the NFPA members voted in favor of 1710 not the IAFF members. Funny when the tables are turned on the quislings who quote chapter and verse on NFPA are the first to denounce it when it doesn't work in their favor.

[doughesson]

[QUOTE=FFFRED;766308]That report is one of the most statistically inaccurate and poorly structured reports I've ever seen posted on the forums.

This chief
This City manager(who probably dropped out of 10th Grade) QUOTE]

I can't speak for my colleague from one of the other departments but Rudell Benton wasn't highly thought of by some of the officers I spoke with.The comment I attributed to him about vollie response times was aired on the local cable access and was never checked out by Brooks Ware or any other newsie.They'd had plenty of access to my department and others to see how long it took to get to the station and a rig on the way.
This is why I believe the maxim of"A reporter will believe anything if you whisper it to them in the corner of a room and promise not to tell another reporter."
I don't know about the city manager's education but it may be spot on.I'd always thought Paducah didn't have a CM but used a close relationship between the Mayor and city council.
The size of Paducah means that a fire in a wastebasket is the lead story on Channel 6 for at least three broadcasts.Paducah really doesn't have that many fires,nor do the county volunteer departments when I was there.
That may be why they're cutting back because they don't see the need to staff a full crew when "all they do is sit around drawing a paycheck when there's no fire." We all know better,especially you paid guys.
You don't throw away something that doesn't get used too often because that's usually when you end up finding a need for it in a bad way.

[randsc]

The Paducah Fire Chief did strongly oppose the task force reduction scenarios. Even though he was on the task force he reportedly was not even invited to some of their meetings. The way it went down at the City Council meeting was like this: The Commissioner who was on the task force gave a brief, and I must admit, accurate PowerPoint presentation that ended with several options ranging from keeping the current minimum manning daily staffing level or drawing it down by attrition (retirements). No Layoffs! Options to be decided on by the Council at a later date. The Fire Chief was then allowed to speak and he strongly voiced his objections to any reductions. The high point (climax is no longer politically correct) was when the mayor asked the FC if on multiple alarm situations could the FD decide which one was an emergency. The FC responded "They’re all emergencies to us mayor". This drew a loud but respectful applause from the FFs in attendance.

The union pres. spoke next and gave a nice prepared speech with a few inaccuracies. One inaccuracy was when he began by saying he did not have time to prepare when it was obvious he did. He said he had not seen the report until that night but in fact he had the rough draft for at least two weeks prior. His good points touched on the safety of FFs and their ability to do their assigned jobs on a fire scene if the daily minimum manning levels were lowered. Also he elaborated on the inevitable situation of longer response times and that PFDs quick response skewed the fire data because sometimes extinguishers were used instead of needing to lay out hose, multiple alarms leaving the city unprotected, liability of not following NFPA min. manning standards (from his looks he ought not to mention NFPA 1582). etc. etc. However, when asked by a Commissioner about the union leaderships dealings with surrounding VFDs at a meeting concerning Mutual Aid (currently non- auto MA with all VFDS) there was some inaccurate statements made by the union pres. as to his no help wanted message he gave to theVFDs. The organizational culture of the PFD labor has been to mistreat VFD personnel in the past. Even if they brought their kids by a station to see a fire truck VFFs were give the cold shoulder and more sometimes. Very cold and sometimes hostile attitudes on emergency scenes where a VFD just happened to be a bystander and offer help. Little, almost no MA operations in the past (maybe the PFD Ladder Truck sent out to drown a bigger fire or a VFD mobile air unit brought in to assist PFD.) Any fool should be able to recognize the childishness of this attitude. A couple of points for example: the vast majority of PFD paid FFs live in VFD areas. Also, with just 69 total FFs the PFD will need VFDs if the big S%*t hits the fan.

The city (Paducah)of only 26,000 evening residents contains the regions major commercial district with many hotels, 2 huge hospitals and supporting medical offices, interstate and rail transportation corridors, very large crowds at seasonal special events and entertainment and convention venues, local state federal governmental courts &offices with crucial document storage, business and banking office district, downtown historic district(a big hazard), schools colleges big churches, Inland waterway shoreline facilities along the Ohio River, and the regions large above ground petroleum storage facility adjacent to dense residential areas, etc. etc. The point is that the PFD protects more than just 26,000 residents and who knows how many hotel customers, daytime workers, shoppers, and passers through, the infrastructure they protect is crucial to the economic stability of the entire region. Considering a large part of this infrastructure does not generate much revenue for the city complicates things. The FD is a costly necessary public service. Paid FDs are like lawyers in a way, you can’t really appreciate them until you need them to get your bump out of trouble.

PFD does First Responder but the local hospitals own the EMS operation which is first class (lots and lots of great equipment, new stations, excellent staff, operate in the black ink, etc.) which is why PFD does not transport. Task force has asked EMS to not tap out PFD if their unit is closer. Also Tforce wants EMS dispatch consolidated with 911 to filter calls better (example: not send FD when caller states the need ride to hospital because they sprained their ankle last week and it hurts a little more today.) Currently 911 Central Dispatch transfers medical calls to EMS who then dispatches their own ambulances and requests 911 operator listening in to dispatch FD. No opportunity for revenue here folks. They are good. No merger is foreseeable.

What do you do eventually if the $$s are not there for the FD? The task force (basically The CM and the one Commissioner) suggest the FD look into ways to support a reduced min. manning level if the need arises (as it probably will). MA may or may not be the answer. It’s a long-term answer that needs to be developed and would have to withstand management and political environment changes along the way. Pagers for off duty FFs with pay for responding to paged incidents and OT if needed upon arrival. Just maintaining current staffing levels by increasing the use of OT by existing FFs and freezing hiring upon retirements may result in savings. These alternatives need to be looked at. One of you uses the quote "THE DEADLIEST WORDS EVER SPOKEN TO A YOUNG FIREFIGHTER FROM AN OLD FIREFIGHTER..."SON, WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT THIS WAY..NO NEED TO CHANGE IT.." may have some meaning within the management realm as well as the operations realm. In business management classes they always use the example of the horse buggy whip manufacturer at the turn of the century that did not recognize the need to change and eventually went belly up with the invention of automobiles. I say don’t let yourself get caught up in the propaganda of the IAFF or the ICMA. Compromise, adapt, overcome in order to fulfill the mission and protect the vital fire service organization in the long-term. Think outside the box. If you live in a box all your life, you won’t know anything except what little is inside the box. Two words that come to my mind could end not being a choice but a necessity are merger and metro.

Too many facts, and too measured and reasonable a response. That sort of behavior is not tolerated on these forums.

[twarner]

I must give Tman credit. His info is most accurate if your reading from the age old Anti Labor Union Busting playbook. Remember our jobs are about saving lives. Unfortunately the trend Paducah is setting will eventually cause substantial loss of life and property. Those firefighters who have experienced cutbacks know what this is all about. $$$$$$$$$$$$$
So heck. Lets just go and cancel our Life, Health, Auto, and homeowners insurance... Their way too expensive anyway.