Manitowoc Wisconsin B.s.

[nas13vwr]

Upon talking with Manitowoc personnel office about the Manitowoc Fire Department, associates degree was preferred but not mandatory and they would consider previous experience as I have. Applied soley due to this fact, as I'm a firefighter/EMT in Maine, passed written and physical. Recieved letter stating there was an oversite because degree was required and was not recommended for employment. Spent more than $500 dollars in gas, 56 hours driving, and an additional $100 dollars to take the CPAT not to mention two weeks of military leave due to their cluster. MANITOWOC IS B.S. DO NOT APPLY TILL THEY GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR A**!

[Golzy12]

Thats unfortunate, I haven't even heard of that dept. How big is it? How many people were they hiring?

[BCLepore]

Good or bad, you have to make a name for yourself. You have chosen to SLAM a professional fire department for a mistake that was made by a NON fire department member.

I understand your frustration. You have every right to feel the way you do. I would feel the same way if I completely wasted my time and money.

Where you went wrong and crossed the line is when you CHOSE to slam the department on an open forum.

The fire service is a small community. You have now made a name for yourself with this department. While you didn’t use your name, you did indicate that you are a paid, PROFESSIONAL firefighter from Maine. Believe me, everyone reads this forum.

Prior to this posting I would have encouraged you to approach the manager of the personnel department and ask him or her to reconsider. It may have even gone to the fire chief. After this, I guarantee you do not stand a chance!

You wrote:
"MANITOWOC IS B.S. DO NOT APPLY TILL THEY GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR A**!"

How would you feel if a candidate wrote nasty things about YOUR department due to an error made by a NON-FIRE DEPARTMENT clerical person?


Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief
Author of:
Smoke Your Firefighter Interview
The Aspiring Firefighter’s Two-Year Plan
Smoke Your Firefighter Written Exam (coming soon)
www.aspiringfirefighters.com

[DrJobMD]

Good evening. My name is K. Miller and I have over 20 years experience in the H.R. dept. I am going to give you some worthwhile information regarding job hirings and it isn't going to cost you a cent. I have seen every kind of hiring imaginable. Nothing worse than the firefighter hire. A prime example is that BC Lepore even confirmed that as an officer he would hire someone he knows, over someone who scores better and is an unknown. This isn't called civil service. Why give a civil service test? I'll tell you why. So cities and departments can cash in on your application fees. I know a department that gives a test once a year and doesn't hire anyone off the list. After inquiring as to why they give a test when they don't hire anyone, I was told by a colleague that it is the biggest civil service moneymaker for the city. Enough said.
Here is my suggestion:

THE BIG 3

Pick three departments that you would like to work for. Research the human resource dept. for that city. Go to the gap and get yourself a nice pair of dress pants and a dress shirt, and then go to the HR dept of any of the three cities on your list. The key word is GO- don't call!! Tell them you are interested in taking the fire exam and that you would like some information. It is almost a sure bet that someone will help you. Ask them for their residency requirements, and what kind of test they give (traditional, private company, their own, etc.). If they use a private company they will most likely give you the name of the company and then you contact them. Then you will be able to purchase 1 book instead of every "how to pass the written" book on the market. By doing this you get a feel for what the hiring is like in that city and your chances of getting the job. From their you can judge whether it is worth while of investing your time and money. There are legitimate depts out there. The only way to successfully master the process is to take the initiative to seek them out. I know it can be discouraging. I have seen firsthand how departments have chosen candidates before the test was even completed. I would be happy to answer any questions anyone might have or offer any advice on any FD hiring processes

[BCLepore]

I do agree with some of Mr. Miller’s advice but I am puzzled about a couple of things he says:

“Why give a civil service test? I'll tell you why. So cities and departments can cash in on your application fees.”

This must be particular to your area of the country. I am familiar with the West Coast. To my knowledge NO city or county agency makes any money from a firefighter recruitment. In fact, it’s quite the opposite.

When I was a Captain I was assigned to a daylight stint for 5 weeks along with 9 of my peers to conduct 2200 entry-level interviews. The cost in overtime alone to back fill our positions was over $100,000.

This is AFTER the city had to rent the Convention Center to test 8,500 applicants AFTER providing each of them with a 150-page test preparation manual. The candidates did have to pay $5 for the manual.

After the interviews several hundred candidates were invited to the physical agility. Again, the city had to staff the events and pay the salaries of the proctors.

Once the numbers were widdled down, select candidates were invited to Chief’s interviews. While the Chiefs are already on a daylight schedule and no overtime is generated while they interview candidates, the fire department comes to a grinding halt. Nothing gets done.

I know a department that gives a test once a year and doesn't hire anyone off the list.

Many departments have this requirement in their City Charter. My department requires a current firefighter eligibility list. This also holds for promotional exams. I have a friend on a small neighboring department who took his department’s Captain’s examination every 2-years for 10 years and there was NEVER an opening. Again, his city’s policy was to have an active list.

I understand that things are done differently around the country. I can assure you that fire departments on the west coast dread giving exams, as it is a great expense to the organization.

I strongly agree with Mr. Miller’s SUGGESTION to select the departments that you wish to work for. Be selective and make yourself a desirable candidate. Know what the department is looking for and become that candidate and most importantly; LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW!


Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief

[nas13vwr]

Heres the deal...

1. Never said I was paid/professional as I'm paid on call
2. Personnel told me the degree was prefered, chief sent the decline
3. Attempted to contact the chief, directly, numerous times but each attempt was unsucessful
4. Not bashing the department but 100% bashing there hiring policy and feel no one else should wastes their time or money
5. believe I was the only "candidate" with veterans preference and prior experience
6. CPAT wasn't even administered by Manitowoc but by a city 2 hours south which added to the drive time and cost $100 to take not to mention the cost of gas
7. as for picking three departments and going around to each one to get a feel for each and their hiring process... you try it while serving active duty in the military!

[nas13vwr]

Manitowoc is a small city department. When taking the written there were approximately 15-20 individuals there. I'd say approximately 6 or 7 raised there hand saying they didn't even meet the CPAT requirements. Most were "kids" straight out of tech school with no experience and no veterans preference.

[BCLepore]

1. Never said I was paid/professional as I'm paid on call
“as I'm a firefighter/EMT in Maine”
No reference to being paid call

2. Personnel told me the degree was prefered, chief sent the decline

Exactly, “preferred” means they want to hire people with degrees. They CAN turn down your application because you don’t meet the minimum requirements.
It happens every day when candidates receive a letter stating that due to certain factors (usually the number of applicants) their application was declined.
It also means they could have accepted it. Bottom line - IT's THEIR CHOICE!

Was it handled properly… No, it should have been handled differently.

3. Attempted to contact the chief, directly, numerous times but each attempt was unsuccessful

He has no obligation to speak to you. What’s he going to say? The decision had been made. Contacting him NUMEROUS times wasn’t going to change his opinion.

4. Not bashing the department but 100% bashing there hiring policy and feel no one else should wastes their time or money
You’re kidding, right?
MANITOWOC IS B.S. DO NOT APPLY TILL THEY GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR A**!
Reread the headline of your post. Complete with unhappy face. To have an outsider bash a fire department in an open forum is unacceptable.
You were out of line.

5. believe I was the only "candidate" with veterans preference and prior experience

Here are my thoughts on military personnel transitioning into fire department jobs:

Military Experience
Candidates who have served our country in the Armed Forces have a huge advantage over those who have not. By serving our country it is generally believed that while you may not have as many certificates and fire science units as the other candidates (you were busy serving our country), you offer much more.

Experience shows that candidates with military experience usually possess the following attributes:

1. They are very mature
2. They understand the need to get along
3. The understand commitment
4. They are usually physically fit
5. They demonstrate respect for authority
6. They understand the chain of command
7. They are used to working in a structured environment
8. They understand doing something right the first time.
9. They are used to working unsupervised
10. They understand doing a job or task is a reflection of themselves
11. They understand the importance of cleaning up after themselves

If you are still in the military and are interested in a career in the fire service it is important you start making provisions NOW. Start taking online fire science courses. Here is one link to get you started http://www.firecareers.com/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=11&Topic=6571

If possible put yourself in a position to get fire service related training such as Medic or Corpsman. Hazardous Materials and firefighter training will also be beneficial. Lastly, work on general education courses so you can earn your Associates degree.

Do not be intimidated by all of the candidates who have every certification under the sun. They were able to obtain these as a full time student while you were busy fulfilling your obligation to the American people.

A candidate who possesses a his or her EMT, related experience as a reserve or volunteer firefighter and is active taking fire science courses is usually at the top of his game. Get your qualifications, learn how to take a fire department interview and earn your badge.

As you can see, I am a huge supporter of people in the military. You seem to believe you are entitled to the job. So what if you are the only one applying with veteran’s points!

6. CPAT wasn't even administered by Manitowoc but by a city 2 hours south which added to the drive time and cost $100 to take not to mention the cost of gas

7. as for picking three departments and going around to each one to get a feel for each and their hiring process... you try it while serving active duty in the military!

Your competition is doing it………

Most were "kids" straight out of tech school with no experience and no veteran’s preference.
Ah yes, but they had something you didn’t……a degree.

I would encourage you to save yourself some time and money. Don’t waste your time applying there again. In fact, I wouldn’t waste my time applying anywhere in the region as you have made quite a name for yourself. I am confident the Fire Chief and the firefighters don’t appreciate their department being called out in a public forum.

The fire service is a small community. You just made a name for yourself.

Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief

[nas13vwr]

1.I am a NREMT and Maine licensed EMT
2.I do have fire courses not to mention the department trainings such as EVOC, AVOC, highway safety, rural waterways, haz-mat first responder, to name a few
3.I do have plenty of general classes to put towards a degree as I have 53 reconized by ACE and an additional 56 not recognized yet
4.I do specialize in HAZ-MAT as I am an explosives technician and a HAZ-MAT materials inspector and am very aware of the DOT standards and title 49 CFR.
5.I do respond fire/rescue calls everyday

so as far as the get this and get that and you are well on your way...I am

[BCLepore]

You completely missed the point.
Good luck in your endeavors.
Stay safe!
Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief

[pfd4life]

nas13vrw, I have many friends on the Manitowoc FD, one of which is a BC. Upon reading this thread I quickly shot an e-mail off to him to alert him of your displeasure by a..well..standard hiring process. I have not heard a reply back, but I can almost assure you he is well aware of this thread, as he reads the FH.com Forum on a daily basis. Most of the other guys I know do the same, so before you know it, you, and your name, and your writings will be spead across the houses in the city, as well as most of eastern Wisconsin. So...edit your posts all you care...it's too late now. Mani's, preference is to those with fire science degrees, why? Because they know how those candates were trained, and where. As many of the guys that work on the Dept, also do FF instruction at the local tech school, as well as others in the area. I'll list the reasons you got denied...

1. You are not a paramedic. Almost all of the department is paramedic, if not, your currently enrolled in paramedic.
2. You do not posess a WI Fire Science degree.
3. You do not posess, FF1 FF2, or any other WI degrees, requiring you to take those prior to being hired.

That's just three reasons, I can think of more. The CPAT is only offered in a few areas around the state of WI, all, except one is in the southern part of the state, oh well..it can be expesive to give as well as get certified for it. Eventually it will be coming north of Milwaukee, it's in the works for the area. The other noted item I see in the last post you made, is that you have not made any mention of current fire certifications through Maine. And nobody gives two shi*s about what you have been trained on in your department, I'd be a freaking chief if that was the case. So a few words in closing....

GET OVER IT....YOU DID NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENTS...

oh one last thing...don't plan on getting hired anywhere in the Sheboygan/Manitowoc/Fond Du Lac/Brown or Ozaukee county area...we all talk together, we all know each other very well, you made the choice..you f'd yourself.

[nas13vwr]

I really dont mind whether or not I got the job. I'm sure they hired the right people for the job. What I do care about is the miss communication between personnel and the department that led to a waste of time and money that could of been avoided if the correct information was given out by the human resources individual. I dont mind spending money and time if the information is correct. So, if you read the initial post, I called out the personnel office not the department so tell who ever you want, I'm still going to do the job I love. So once again until the PERSONNEL office gets their head out of their A$$ and their facts straight DONT apply.

SO GET OVER IT

[pfd4life]

I really dont mind whether or not I got the job. I'm sure they hired the right people for the job. What I do care about is the miss communication between personnel and the department that led to a waste of time and money that could of been avoided if the correct information was given out by the human resources individual. I dont mind spending money and time if the information is correct. So, if you read the initial post, I called out the personnel office not the department so tell who ever you want, I'm still going to do the job I love. So once again until the PERSONNEL office gets their head out of their A$$ and their facts straight DONT apply.

SO GET OVER IT

Again, it was a mistake by a clerical employee that has nothing to do with the FD. It could happen anywhere. Then you went on to bust on the Chief for not returning your calls..class act. You did not meet the requirements...quit crying.