How do you deal with gawkers?

[derekaprice]

I am a relatively new Firefighter. I have been with my department for almost a year now, and go on as many calls as I can. This past weekend, I went on my first fatal accident. I have been on other extrication calls before, but we have been very fortunate this year and the patients have been alive.

The accident happened about 22:30 Saturday night. Two car, head on collision. Alcohol was not a factor. Car 1 was east bound and had 3 passengers. 21 y/o male driver, 17 y/o female passenger in the front & 16 y/o female passenger in the back. Car 2 was west bound, just a 24 y/o driver returning from work. He was belted, the other 3 were not.

Long story short, Car 2, crossed the center line at 60mph+ with predictable results. The 16 y/o in car 1 and the driver of car 2 were flown. The front seat passengers didn't make it. My company was called for scene control, lifting assistance and extrication of the body should it be needed.

Here's the part that gets to me: The accident was in a mixed residential/commercial area. We had the usual gawkers looking over fences and the like, but we also had a group that was moving steadily closer to the scene. With a camera. The State Patrol couldn't/wouldn't roust them as they were on private property. The one man of the group leaves and returns 10 minutes later with an 8-10 y/o girl. They start pointing and laughing.

Gang, I am not a fluffy headed, sappy, "everything will be peaches" kind of guy. I know that **** happens, and I see it frequently. But I almost lost it when I saw the callous nature of those people. Is that normal? Was my reaction & emotion justified, or am I making more than I should? It wasn't the "gosh, a dead body, how do I handle it?" thing. It was a complete lack of respect. These ghouls were using to lives lost as an excuse to chum around. Is this common and how should I handle this next time?

Getting worked up thinking about it. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[imnumber1]

Yes it will happen all the time. I'm usually too busy working on the scene to notice the behavior of the onlookers, but they are always there, sometimes keeping back and being respectful, sometimes they act like it is the most awesome thing in the world and want to be in the middle of everything. Not sure what you can do about it. When we run calls, we don't normally handle crowd control. That is left up to the police and fire police. Not sure what to tell you there, but yes that behavior from crowds on such incidents is normal.

[doughesson]

We have a Captain that's rather hard nosed about onlookers getting in the way or laughing at someone else's tragedy.Our local TV station will not send a certain reporter to any of our calls because of this.
We have a policy of parking the rigs around any fatalities so that the cameras cannot even get a view of the involved vehicles until we are ready to announce who the victims are.
Even then,we cannot stop people from seeing a vehicle similar to what a relative drives and stopping,though we can ask them to stay put while we find out if their name matches anyone on scene.If so,we have an officer come out to explain further information.I don't want to violate HIPPA or any other acronym regulation or tell someone too early about a family tragedy.
I have two years on and would rather have an officer who knows more about the situation than I do to do the explaining.It comes with taking the tests and wearing the bugles.

[FFTide]

I've been on several fatals this year. The one we had news copters flying overhead and two bodies on the ground. The simple thing is get a couple of the probies and other people hanging around, even the tow truck guys. Get your tarps, blankets, anything large and stand up with them screening the bystanders from the scene. Works well and gives everyone something to do and gives you a little privacy especailly when the ME get's there, people don't need to be seeing that stuff.

[MOTOWN88]

But I almost lost it when I saw the callous nature of those people. Is that normal? Was my reaction & emotion justified, or am I making more than I should? It wasn't the "gosh, a dead body, how do I handle it?" thing. It was a complete lack of respect. These ghouls were using to lives lost as an excuse to chum around. Is this common and how should I handle this next time?

Yup, your response is quite normal and expected. You have a close relationship with the person even if they are DOS. Either you have worked hard to extricate them or you are there to provide some dignity to the situation. Dont get mixed up with the gawkers its not worth it, just cover as much as you can and provide the person either dead or alive with a shread of dignity. Keep your scene closed and secure thats really the best you can do, its not really our job to provide some moral lesson to the substandard human form known as the gawker our function is to the people in the car.

[Farmun]

Yep, I agree, this is pretty common but these people sounded more inhuman than most. The cops here handle crowd control and I think they would have had something to say to those fools.

All you can do it put a tarp over the car and back off. Don't stoop to their level and say anything to them, it just makes you look bad. The courts understand that you don't do crowd control and if a HIPPA issue came up if you said you covered the car as soon as was practical (ie. after you tended to those who were still viable) then you have done your duty under the law. Gawkers who stoop that low will get theirs in the end. ;)

[Firefighter2230]

we are lucky I suppose on most accidents the county sherrifs deputies will get rid of people who are trying to watch (people that live close by, walking around the neighborhood etc) our biggest problem however is people who are driving by while we are directing traffic and trying to rubber neck.
Here's something else we have run into and thats camera phones being used to take pictures. Has anyone else experienced this yet?

[doughesson]

They are annoying aren't they?How slow is your life that you have to take pictures of someone else'e misery to send to friends?
Using your camera phone to send pictures to your insurance agent is one thing but when I hear someone then talk into their phone"Isn't that the coolest thing?"it irks the H outta me.
Best we can do is whistle up a Deputy and have him explain it to them.Like I said,we have a Captain with a short fuse when it comes to rubberneckers and reporters.They'll find a Deputy more reasonable than my Captain.
In another thread,I talked about a guy who worked with a crash victim and went to the funeral to give out details that A:weren't true,B:were not within his view of the scene,since he was on traffic control 100 feet away and behind an engine and C:violated every part of HIPPA just opening his mouth.
As soon as the word spread about him,he was pretty much an ex member even before the Chief got back from Owensboro to talk with him about it.
Though it irks you and you want to say more,all you can do in Kentucky is order them behind the yellow tape,and tell them not to violate someone else's privacy unless they want the same done to them someday.


Here's something else we have run into and thats camera phones being used to take pictures. Has anyone else experienced this yet?

[Dave1983]

Fire line tape is your friend. Unless someone has a fancy camera with a telephoto lens, you should be able to tape off an area out of their effective "range". Tarps are also a good idea.;)

[dmleblanc]

How do you deal with gawkers?

Tell 'em to get back on the engine and go back to the station.....

Seriously, you really can't do anything about the public's lack of taste or tact. People outside the fire service always marvel at how firefighters, cops, and EMS folks can be so nonchalant about death, destruction, and gruesome injuries. Partially it's because we see it so much more than the average Joe does...after you see a few dead bodies you cease to be amazed by it. The average citizen is pretty insulated from the stuff we deal with all the time, so for them it still has a sort of carnival side-show air about it when they do happen upon it.

I think that precisely because we see so much of it, we tend to treat it with a little more respect. We know from experience how much suffering and misery goes on in our little corner of the world, because we see a good bit of it. I think we have a little more sensitivity to just how fragile a human life is and how easily it can be snuffed out.

Also, remember that at some point we all made a commitment to the fire service and we strive to be professionals (regardless of pay status). Joe Blow on the street corner made no such commitment with his life...he could care less if someone thinks he's crude... He knows that if he does something callous and crass, the public will only view him as a jerk. If we do the same thing, the public views the whole fire service in that light (or at least your department). He's only being judged as an individual, we're being judged as firefighters

And to agree with Dave....fire scene tape is your friend. I find that MOST of the time, the simple act of taping off the scene does wonders. If you give them some kind of physical boundary, they'll usually stay behind it...

[Plattsfire2]

I agree with all that has been said, but then there are circumstances that are beyond your control anyway. Last year we had a 2 vehicle rollover that killed one of the drivers. He was partially ejected and the vehicle rolled over his head, pretty much crushing it completely. A reporter from the newspaper happend to see the wreck, and when we pulled up she was standing DIRECTLY over the body taking pictures.

Of course, to make it worse the van that rolled was a Scott's Lawn and Turf van, which had loads of liquid pesticide and dry fertilizer, combining with a punctured fuel tank. All of it was mixing directly at her feet. And after being told she could not leave the scene and had to be soaked with a booster line for decon, she got upset at US. :rolleyes:

[blueeighty88]

Accidently misdirected fog pattern, fully opened. ;)

[Firefighter2230]

Accidently misdirected fog pattern, fully opened. ;)

deck gun flushing :p

[FFTrainer]

No offense... probies(or juniors) holding a tarp will stop them. That and we have 1 hard a$$ State Trooper that hates onlookers and has been known to chase them while they are doing 10 mph on an interstate trying to sneak a peak.

Also, depending on the incident (apparatus location, crashed vehicle location, etc) we have strung a rope between vehicles, between trees or some combination of both and zip tied a tarp to it like a clothesline.

I have wished for the 'deck gun flushing' option, but it never seems to work out :p

[pfd4life]

We normally dont' have an issue with onlookers at our MVA's, mostly very rural, or open highway, and we shut both directions down, and we go to the first intersection 2mi, both ways, or at least try to. For other incidents, such as fires, we keep the photogs/gawkers a minimum of 150ft away. Medical incidents, the police keep them moving, if not, and I'm not busy , I get them out of the area. We use tarps/blankets or whatever else for patient protection as well. We also only allow media to photograph the incidents after the sherriffs dept clears the photog into the scene.

[VinnieB]

YOu can't stop onlookers......forget them...worry about your job....if you can...put up a few tarps....that should give you a screen.........but it would always.......

I know its tough to see mangled and dead kids....especially F/Ms.....ita gut check, to see if you can hack this job....but it is a reality...that you will have to get use to....as are onlookers......but you can't really control that....if motorists see a tarp...they know dead people are behind it......they have a morbid curiosisty.......move on....and move foward......
...just remember that you exist b/c people need you in time of chaos.......they are at thier most F'd up point...and the want someone who knows what they are doing to show up, take charge, and take care of the situation.....be professional at all time (even to the gouls)....and move foward.

PS....personal experiance.....the worst "gouling" I say was right after the second tower fell on 9/11. I was moving about looking for my partner...and came across a couple from....well I don;t know...but i'd day goulville....the guy and gal posed for pics after the collapse.....and they BOTH friggin smiled!!!???? I friggin lost my mind! I told them if they took another pic I would friggin bury them both......friggin gouls, they both took off, I guess they realised I was serious.....BUT that b/c I was caught up in the moment...don't get caught up in the moment....stay focused.

Good Luck,

Vinnie

[Proby1711]

It was only through being a witness at a few fires & MVA's that I became interested in joining the brigade myself... I saw a kind of family that I wanted to be a part of & it actually spurred me to make some enquiries at my local firehouse. :)

[allineedisu]

YOu can't stop onlookers......forget them...worry about your job....if you can...put up a few tarps....that should give you a screen.........but it would always.......

I know its tough to see mangled and dead kids....especially F/Ms.....ita gut check, to see if you can hack this job....but it is a reality...that you will have to get use to....as are onlookers......but you can't really control that....if motorists see a tarp...they know dead people are behind it......they have a morbid curiosisty.......move on....and move foward......
...just remember that you exist b/c people need you in time of chaos.......they are at thier most F'd up point...and the want someone who knows what they are doing to show up, take charge, and take care of the situation.....be professional at all time (even to the gouls)....and move foward.

PS....personal experiance.....the worst "gouling" I say was right after the second tower fell on 9/11. I was moving about looking for my partner...and came across a couple from....well I don;t know...but i'd day goulville....the guy and gal posed for pics after the collapse.....and they BOTH friggin smiled!!!???? I friggin lost my mind! I told them if they took another pic I would friggin bury them both......friggin gouls, they both took off, I guess they realised I was serious.....BUT that b/c I was caught up in the moment...don't get caught up in the moment....stay focused.

Good Luck,

Vinnie


Hey Vinnie, I am with you Brother.

[charlie408]

one time a battalion cheif of mine got out the thermal imaging camera and started pointing it at the croud. then people wher like hey what are you doing, and he said i'm taking pictures for evidence. What do you know all of the sudden everyone standing around had somthing better to do than stan around and whatch.

[pfd4life]

I find it less hard to deal with DOA's and on-lookers because that's almost a naturality for the human race, and there always seem to be more at a fatal. But when you have someone who is still alive, but in a combative and usually very vocal state due to their condition, you have fewer and fewer.

[Firefighter2230]

one time a battalion cheif of mine got out the thermal imaging camera and started pointing it at the croud. then people wher like hey what are you doing, and he said i'm taking pictures for evidence. What do you know all of the sudden everyone standing around had somthing better to do than stan around and whatch.

haha funny story but off topic after we got ours we sat out infront of our station where people have a habit of speeding and it was amazing how you would see the brake lights after people drove past where we were sitting or watch them slow up before they got to where we were sitting. :p

[doughesson]

At wreck scenes,I've been known to fling a traffic wand light at cars still not slowing down.One guy tried to complain to a Sheriff's Deputy and got ticketed for his trouble.
You see the state's working to slow people down for construction zones but all emergency responders get is"Slow down and Move over"without the photo ops of kids and widows grieving because someone"didn't see the BRT with all the lights and kept on at highway speed while on their cell phone.


haha funny story but off topic after we got ours we sat out infront of our station where people have a habit of speeding and it was amazing how you would see the brake lights after people drove past where we were sitting or watch them slow up before they got to where we were sitting. :p

[ladder2121]

We were at a scene one night in a residential neighborhood on an EMS run with local PD, some people came out and stood around on the street watching, some lady asked me what happened and asked why the police and FD were in the area, I politely advised her that a crazy person had escaped from a local mental hospitol and was running around with a hatchet attacking people, and that if she saw a person in a white suit to call 911. The crowd seemed to quickly vanish. :D

[cozmosis]

I have a unique perspective on this matter as I spent eight years in journalism before becoming a firefighter. Both as a news photographer and as a firefighter... I'm amazed at the number of cops, EMS folks and firefighters who seem more worried about running bystanders off than they are in providing care.

When we're on scene, I worry only about that scene. This includes providing care for the living and offering a bit of dignity for the dead. It does not involve me worrying about the folks who have nothing better to do than take a peek. As long as they keep their cars moving in a safe manner and as long as they stand outside of the area we're operating in... They can do whatever they please. If I've got time to worry about people who aren't in my scene, I'm probably not needed on that scene.

[RFRDxplorer]

I stopped at a wreck just about 1 min before the cops and FD arrived and was just getting out of the car but decided just to stand to the side. It was on a state route in the right hand lane, the speed limit was 55 I think. 4 cop cars were there and slowing and directing traffic. When one guy flew by, the cop did the same thing, threw somthing at him. Then literally 30 seconds later another guy flew by this time going about 70-75, this earned strings of curses and inappropriate language for these forums from the cop who then got in his car and chased the guy down.

[BD6413]

Accidently misdirected fog pattern, fully opened. ;)


This does actually work. Oh you'll get all kinds of phone calls and letters at the firehouse but it does work....I know I did it.

We responded one evening to a collision where multiple injuries with entrapment was reported. -- There were no fatalities but the entrapment was pretty heavy and we were into an extended operation. The scene was along a major roadway with an Apartment Complex to one side and a bowling alley parking lot to the other side -- Accident was in the primetime afternoon / evening on a Saturday --- As the Extrication was in process I was manning an 1 3/4" protection line and could feel on-lookers pushing into my back. I turned around and asked everyone to back off more than once. By the 3rd. Time I'd had it -- I shouted out "you're all gettin' wet and opened the bail knocking back about 12 people who had been up my a**. Because it was February, dark and Drizzle like out the cold air didn't assist these gawkers one little bit. Had one of the on lookers try and physically take me out but he was stopped by a Police Officer who locked him up. Now he was wet, cold and under arrest. Cop left this guy sit on the curb, in wet clothes until the scene was cleared and kicked him loose after having his car towed.....He had stopped to watch the accident and obstructed the ambulance leaving the scene.

I say tape off the area a good 100 to 150' in all directions especially if there is a fatalitiy involved. Everybody wants to see the wreck and oh yeah they love blood and guts until they actually see the mangled body than they just loose it. There is no need what so ever for the general public to to be gawking at Accident scenes -- there is nothing they can do.

[doughesson]

Despite having my 150 training hours in and now being able to take the"fun"classes at state fire schools,I still quite often end up on traffic detail when we respond to wrecks.
If I am assisting with the extrication,I trust the others assigned traffic to keep the gawkers and speeders under control.My attention is focused on what I am doing and not screwing up and causing more pain than they are already feeling.
When I am the one assigned as road target,I make sure that the work area and vicinity of the rig is kept clear for my company's safety.
It should be the police doing traffic control while the FD handles getting the fire out and the people removed from the vehicles and providing any BLS until the ambulance gets there.
In theory that's how it should work but reality is a far different thing.


I have a unique perspective on this matter as I spent eight years in journalism before becoming a firefighter. Both as a news photographer and as a firefighter... I'm amazed at the number of cops, EMS folks and firefighters who seem more worried about running bystanders off than they are in providing care.
.

[EastKyFF]

Coz, I agree that we should take care of patients first, but once we're left with nothing but DOA's and we're waiting on the coroner to document the scene, I feel that it qualifies as patient care--at least, survivor care--to ensure that the deceased are treated with dignity, not treated like a circus sideshow. This is especially true if family members show up at the scene. Their very private grief becomes a very public event if we aren't managing the crowd.

And let's be careful about telling anybody anything. Once there is a fatality, it is a crime scene. We have an excellent relationship with our coroner, mostly because we understand that once all living victims are transported, that scene is his. That means no moving stuff, no interaction with the bodies, and certainly no interaction with families or "potential" families as far as notification of death.

[Pathfinder65]

Maybe it's the fact that I'm working in a relatively small town/rural area but I don't think the local police controlling the perimeter of a scene have had any difficulty clearing away the spectators if it was necessary, none that I've heard them mention anyway. There's a natural curiousity to watch a fire or accident and it can't be avoided, there will always be spectators. So long as there is a respectable distance maintained I don't think it's a problem. Gawkers getting in the way of ongoing operations or being a nuisance to get a look at a casualty however is another matter altogether and they should be "moved on" in short order by the police. Are the police in your districts not maintaining security around the scene? It's pretty standard here.
In one instance we removed a victim from a house and the spectators were held to about 200 yards away. Even so, we held up a tarp to shield the victim from people who may have had bino's or telephoto lenses.
Dave

[doughesson]

We had a mutual aid call to a wreck just beyond an overpass where the gawkers had balcony seats.It was 2330 when we got the tones for it so what WERE these people doing up and about at that hour?
When the cororner's people arrived,we had tarps up and someone walking the overpass making sure the attention was on him and not what was going on below.It worked pretty well,I guess because when traffic opened up,the folks who'd climbed the hill wanted to know when we moved the people,not that I was going to tell them.


In one instance we removed a victim from a house and the spectators were held to about 200 yards away. Even so, we held up a tarp to shield the victim from people who may have had bino's or telephoto lenses.
Dave