LAPD shootout

[CaptainMikey]

I was just watching the msnbc special about the lawsuit over the bank robber dying in police custody.

What pissed me off were the people making statements that they were right in REFUSING care to the bank robber. Also someone had the idea that they should treat every civilian (scratches, gsws, etc....) then the robbers.

In my mind being that the suspect was yelling and yelling for an ambulance (confirmed by officers and bystanders) and then ended up dying of his injuries due to REFUSAL of care is alittle something called Breach of Duty and Negligence. But the biggest piece of evidence is that LAPD sort of lost the lawsuit.

Just my 10 cents.

What would you do in that situation. A few bystanders with scrapes and scratches and a suspect with gsw's and major bleeding.

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally posted by CaptainMikey
I was just watching the msnbc special about the lawsuit over the bank robber dying in police custody.

What pissed me off were the people making statements that they were right in REFUSING care to the bank robber. Also someone had the idea that they should treat every civilian (scratches, gsws, etc....) then the robbers.

In my mind being that the suspect was yelling and yelling for an ambulance (confirmed by officers and bystanders) and then ended up dying of his injuries due to REFUSAL of care is alittle something called Breach of Duty and Negligence. But the biggest piece of evidence is that LAPD sort of lost the lawsuit.

Just my 10 cents.

What would you do in that situation. A few bystanders with scrapes and scratches and a suspect with gsw's and major bleeding.

yeah.. and still heavily armed.... :rolleyes:

[mcaldwell]

My job is not to judge someone on a scene, but rather to render aid as I have been trained.

This case seems pretty clear, i.e. bad guy gets what he deserves, but not all cases are so cut and dry. What may look like a drunk driver running down a kid could be a diabetic in a sudden coma. Or someone who may look like an apparent Gang-banger, could in fact just be a poor neighbourhood kid in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Innocent until proven guilty, so I treat based on severity and salvagability as long as it's safe for me to do so. The legal system is the one responsible for hanging the criminals.

[Res343cue]

If the guy harmed someone else, then got shot, well, that's his problem.

I'm sorry, but if I had to chose to save a group of people over the person that hurt them all, I'll take the group any day. Morally, it's completely wrong for me to say that. But truthfully, that's what'd happen.

At any given point, I'm sure the majority of us have been placed in a position where you've been stuck treating a husband after the cops got ahold of him, but that's only after you treated his wife for some pretty severe injuries caused by him. We all know the type I'm talking about. How many times have we "turned our heads" to let some jagoff get some street justice from a local cop? Deny it if you must, but it happens everywhere.

The guy got what he deserved. He's dead, too bad. It's too bad LAPD didn't kill him with the first shot.

[CaptainMikey]

Well the US district court says it was Breach of Duty.

If I have 2 civilians with minor injuries and a suspect that has been DISARMED and has major injuries and is able to be salvaged I will treat the major injuries first.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

This thread is astounding.

A couple of threads ago, people werelauding a US serviceman for treating an enemy sniper who just shot him. Now, just change the names and place and you are lauding police officers for not treating a wounded gunman. And to top it off, you are saying that you would do the same. That is disgusting.

If the scene is safe, you triage and trat the most seriously wounded person first. Not one of you can cite a source that says you don't treat criminals. You are not judge and jury.

Most of you have never dealt one-on-one with real bad people. Most of you are talking out of your kitty cat butt.

[PattyV]

What would you do in that situation. A few bystanders with scrapes and scratches and a suspect with gsw's and major bleeding.
What any responsible person would do, even if they dont know the meaning of the word: Triage.

[nmfire]

I would treat the suspect once he is disarmed and the police have him restrained or controled in some way. Just because he doesn't have a weapon doesn't mean it's safe! Once he is under control, then he is just as much a patient as everyone else in the bank.

[Eno821]

Interesting thread.

We look back on the incident and we know there were only two gunmen: One was Larry Phillips Jr. and one was Emil Matasereanue (however the hell you spell the gnat's name). Larry was the leader, and Emil was some computer geek Larry and his brother recruited from a gym for another heist involving a drug scam. When Larry and his brother parted ways (on account of Larry having made a fake driver's license in his brother's name after being arrested during the last of very many real estate scams) Emil stuck around. The two trained together, and committed crimes together... not the least of which was an armoured car robbery only a short time earlier. This armoured car robbery was, as the two gunmen would find out, was exactly the reason they ended up getting caught (killed). The reason they ended up staying in the bank so long was because they knew there was a certain amount of money in the banks at certain times. Instead of taking what they had and leaving immediately, Larry continued to beat up the manager looking for the rest. What he didn't know was that on account of the prior robbery, the banks decreased the amount of money in circulation on site- this delay allowed LAPD to get on site and contain (more or less) the two robbers.

Larry was the guy we all see shoot himself in the head as we watch the documentary for the 10th time in almost as many years since it happened. Naturally, that makes Emil the guy laying down on the ground with that bad leg wound which eventually bled out and caused him to die.

The reason we know all this (well, I was a little closer to the story than most because of my business) is because we can look back on it. While we're watching it on tv- the closest most of us wanted to get to it) could you have told me how many gunmen there were involved in the whole crime and in the area?

Okay, there is no doubt in my mind that there was some street justice involved- at least that's the perception. Over 1200 rounds were exchanged- a good part of those coming from the baddies. But... and this is a J-lo sized but... did the cops know there were only two guys? Sure, only 2 guys shooting, but how many were involved and was the scene actually safe? you have a potential area of interference measured in miles, not to mention what was it- 16 other wounded? Speaking of triage... who are always the priorities on scene? Us. Cops. EMS. Lots of wounded cops to deal with, and each of the responding units would have needed the same degree of protection.

There is an incredible argument that supports the LAPD and their actions.

I can't believe that a person could compare the mutual respect between two soldiers and expect the same between cops and crooks. It ain't going to happen, and shouldn't. The morality is TOTALLY different and I have to explain why then I think we'd better downgrade the reading level a bit.

[JackTee09]

I have treated some really bad people - and been in the middle of the aftermath of all the violence. Thi includes officers down and civilians shot by officers.

Do we dislike some people that we serve? Yes. Are they sometimes hideous creatures? Yes. Afterwards do we sometimes wonder how anyone could do the things that these people have done? Yes.

What I will say is this - I did my job which is what I am supposed to do. I don't have to like it or the person - I can hate the situation and the people - but my job was done. Why? Because that is what a firefighter does.

[Eno821]

Wow... way to tow the company line there. I think maybe you should write the screenplay of the next tacky firefighter movie. C'mon dude... you saying I do my job (both civilian and industrial fire) any less because I don't care if some criminal rounder who shot up a bunch of people bleeds to death under circumstances none of us were close enough to to criticize? Oh, and to warrant the bold font at that. Ouch.

The issue here had nothing to do with the fire department anyway- so I'm not sure where the bugle came out and the flag went up.

[JackTee09]

The issue here had nothing to do with the fire department anyway- so I'm not sure where the bugle came out and the flag went up.


Well Emo - the reason that I responded as such-and it is far from a company line unless of course you mean a fire company - is that I too deal with people who are scumbags - hell often right here on the forums - but when you do your job if you let your feelings overcome your professionalism - you have no business answering calls - Whether on your industrial or on your "Civvy" job.

What if something happened to a member of your family and people were shouting out that he was a "scumbag" or worse-and someone showed up to treat him. Would you have that person do their job or act in a manner in which you indicate you act?

[Eno821]

Again, I was commenting on the fact that the fire department had nothing to do with the original thread... Fire didn't make the call on it, and no firefighters were involved in making any decisions whatsoever.

Second. It didn't happen on my watch- so I don't care what happened to him. Besides, if I did care, I suppose as you say I'd be letting my feelings interfere with my work and we don't want that now do we?

Thirdly I was refering to "the company" as a term used to define a "collective" not a specific unit.

Fourthly, my part time civvy gig is another fire department- so don't crack off like I don't know anything about dealing with morons and idiots and how to save the commentary for the pump ride there and back.

Fifthly; a scumbag by any other name is still a scumbag.

Sixth- this started as a thread about the reaction of the LAPD denying access to the scene by EMS while they secured the area... not about you taking everything I've said out of context and then trying to make a point by bringing my degree of professionalism into question because I gave an opinion about something that happened 8 years ago.

Seventh- Read what I say, not what you think.

[123456D]

We live in a world where the Media Expects Perfection.

MEP = People in England who are "fearful" now that more London police officers are carrying guns make the news because they're good soundbites (since we've all heard enough soundbites of people "fearful" of terrorists...)

MEP = Hey, we can make this story from LA into good copy!

At any rate, I don't know the specifics of this story.

Hey, we're all perfect.

[Weruj1]

not going to like it ...............gotta treat the life threats first no matter who they are.......once the scene is safe !

[JackTee09]

EMO:

not about you taking everything I've said out of context and then trying to make a point by bringing my degree of professionalism into question because I gave an opinion about something that happened 8 years ago.

No - I took what you said in reply to my post - which you seemed to attack with relish - and carefully read your response which showed that you indicate-by your own words-that you would behave unprofessionally.



Fourthly, my part time civvy gig is another fire department- so don't crack off like I don't know anything about dealing with morons and idiots and how to save the commentary for the pump ride there and back.

I am quite certain that you and your closest friends deal with morons on a regular basis. :)



Thirdly I was refering to "the company" as a term used to define a "collective" not a specific unit.

Graduate from Guelph?:D

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Hey EMO, couple of questions...

1. Can you cite for me a reference in an EMS text that says:
Speaking of triage... who are always the priorities on scene? Us. Cops. EMS. Lots of wounded cops to deal with, and each of the responding units would have needed the same degree of protection.

I am a retired law enforcement officer and I am a FF. I vehemently disagree with your arrogant position. There is no basis for EMS to disregard the care of a mortally wounded civilian-regardless of what he is accused of doing-to treat lesser injured MOS.

2. C'mon dude... you saying I do my job (both civilian and industrial fire) any less because I don't care if some criminal rounder who shot up a bunch of people bleeds to death under circumstances none of us were close enough to to criticize?
Who in the hell appointed you judge and jury? In what EMS school did they teach you that it was within the scope of an EMT's job to decide who lives and who dies? That person you let die is still INNOCENT until he is proven guilty in court.

3. I can't believe that a person could compare the mutual respect between two soldiers and expect the same between cops and crooks.
What? Just so I get this straight, you think that the soldier who treated the terrorist who shot him in the chest did it because he "respected" the terorist as a "soldier"? That is priceless.

He did it becuase it was the right thing to do! He didn't take it upon himself to play God. You have a chip on your shuolder attitude that makes you sound like yuo are a child. How many "crooks" have you dealt with? Any alone? Did yuo act like this to him? I sincerely doubt it.

That "kitty cat butt" thing was dorected at people like you.

[Eno821]

I think I just figured out how you racked up 5300 posts and counting. I also think you're suffering a bit of a god complex in here. How am I playing god because of an opinion I have about something that, like I said, happened 8 years ago? I think what's priceless is how quick people are to jump on the bandwagon.

I can't explain it any more clearly than I already have. You guys want to take the low road, that's your perogative. In the end, nothing I think has anything to do with what happened in LA or how I do my job- and that's why it's called an opinion. We are still allowed to have those, right?

[JackTee09]

In the end, nothing I think has anything to do with what happened in LA or how I do my job- and that's why it's called an opinion. We are still allowed to have those, right?

Now that is priceless!

Nothing you think has anything to do with how you do your job? I don't think you meant that-did you???

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by Eno821
I think I just figured out how you racked up 5300 posts and counting. I also think you're suffering a bit of a god complex in here. How am I playing god because of an opinion I have about something that, like I said, happened 8 years ago? I think what's priceless is how quick people are to jump on the bandwagon.


What? You stated " I don't care if some criminal rounder who shot up a bunch of people bleeds to death". You are stating that you would use your position to make a decision as to whether someone lives or dies. That is playing God.

BTW, you didn't answer my questions #1 & #2.

[redneckemt]

Doesn't LAPD SWAT have Tactical Medics? Where were they at while the suspect was bleeding to death?

[Eno821]

Probably attending to the officers who were shot and wounded. Just hazarding a guess...

[JackTee09]

Probably attending to the officers who were shot and wounded.

As they should have been doing - yet it still says volumes that someone would state:

In the end, nothing I think has anything to do with what happened in LA or how I do my job- and that's why it's called an opinion. We are still allowed to have those, right?

[Eno821]

frick you are brutal. Okay, I'll amend the statement with the qualifier "Nothing I think ABOUT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD..."

Christ, you guys need more assignments because this is really childish.

[JackTee09]

EMO:

If its so childish why do you respond?

[stm4710]

Question for those who say not to treat the robbers. If you got a call for a overdose.........would you sit there with your hands in the pockets saying he did it to himself and he is a criminal???

I just took an EMT course this spring. I dont recall the section in Emergency Care 10th edition where is says to play God.........could you point it out to me?

What it does talk about is Scene safety,triage. If you rolled up to a MCI.....do you run a BOP/warrent check on every one before you slap tag on them?

[Eno821]

No mr. fresh out of the gate EMT- but your first step is to check scene safety is it not? It's not our emergency. The FIRST STEP is to check for hazards and establish a risk benefit. If the police say it is not safe to enter... then it's not safe to enter. I don't know where the playing god angle came in. I think some people in here are a bit trigger happy a la 5300 posts.

[CaptainGonzo]

Hypothetical question...

The wounded robber claims to have a weapon and a bomb strapped to his body and vows not to be taken alive. Do you...

a. try to reason with him?

b. Do what the Brits did... put 5 rounds in his head so he can't trigger the alleged device?

[Eno821]

In re-reading the initial post, I had to giggle because this guy said the injured were suffering from scrapes- the wounded were hit by 7.62mm... and for those of you with any military experience I think it's safe to say that would be some scratch. To some degree of advantage, the ammunition being used was armour piercing so it would have a tendency to club at you but then generally go straight through- unless of course it had been interfered with by kevlar or high v. ceramic plates. In that case, the round loses momentum, squashes and starts heading upwards into the body. Needless to say you're going to have some seriously wounded laying around all over the place- 16 or so. Might have been 11-12... might be mixing numbers up with Columbine. Regardless. Fact remains- Police have control of the scene. Is it right that they refused to allow medics to come in because the scene was unsafe? If the situation had been reversed and there was still a baddie or two out there looking to make a last stand and hosed down some emergency personnel in the process I think it's safe to assume that this debate would be about how horrible a tragedy the event was and why the cops weren't more cautious.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

GET OUT OF THE WAY! BACKPEDALLING IN PROGRESS!

You can try to put all the psin you want on this, but the fact remains is you shot your mouth off by trying to sound like a macho idiot supporting traige based on the lass of citizen you are dealing with...good guys get treated, than bad guys. then, you supproted letting the bad guys die because, well, because he wqs a bad guy.

Deciding who lives and who dies is playing God.

Sucks when your words come back to haunt you, doesn't it?

[JackTee09]

Hypothetical question...

If I were coming onscene as an EMT/Paramedic - I might hold off on pumping him full of rounds - :D primarily because I wouldn't be carrying any!


George - Bravo!

[Eno821]

Actually, if you knew anything about the incident- you'd know that the wounded I was talking about- ie: the only wounded hit by 7.62mm were civilians and cops. The crook was hit by either 5.56 or simply 9mm paraballum pistol rounds from an MP5 that had been deflected off the ground under the truck he was hiding behind as he fed entire mags of ammo into the PC the SWAT guys were hiding behind.

I'm not in any way back pedalling... I stand by my original opinion with no equivocation whatsoever. I think you'd better do some research.