No Cars Available

[allineedisu]

Ok, No poll here.

How many times have you been on a fire call or accident or EMS call and ask the dispatcher, if the Police are responding and they come back with, No Cars Available, Unit_____!

This seems to be thing now days, no Police units to assist the fire department.

It makes it bad with a motor vehicle accident, if you have to wait for them to come and take their reports; it puts the fire department in more danger.

[Spectre08]

Man, your city must either be short on cops or high on crime.. Everytime I see a wreck or a fire truck here in Dallas there are at least 3 cops cars aswell.

[JackTee09]

Spectre08

There are firefighters here who do work where the budget is tight, crime is high, and the PD are not always right there.

:)

[Spectre08]

the budget is tight, crime is high, and the PD are not always right there.

yep. sounds about like dallas.

seriously though. If I were a firefighter I think that would piss me off too. And it must be at least a little bit more dangerous for the firefighters. I don't think it happens so much around here, but one of my best friends from high school is a firefighter in Cabot, Arkansas. And more than half of their fire calls are to burning meth labs and ever once in a while the owner of said meth house will show up and start shooting.

[FWDbuff]

It makes it bad with a motor vehicle accident, if you have to wait for them to come and take their reports; it puts the fire department in more danger.

Why in the world would YOU have to wait for THEM to take THEIR reports? ESPECIALLY when there is a risk of being in more danger IE traffic? If there is a danger, extricate the pt, or do whatever you have to do (put out the fire, whatever) and return!

[Rayr49]

We seldom are told that an officer is not avaiable but we may wait 20 minutes or more for one to arrive on scene.

Population is roughly 150,00 in two counties which have a land area bigger than some northeastern states. Most of the population is along the I-90 corridor. The closest officer may be 20 miles or more away.

You can't "just do your thing and leave" if it will expose others to a hazard such as a wrecked/burned vehicle partially blocking the road. We assist with traffic control until the officer releases us. We have a very good working relationship with law enforcement.

Stay Safe
IACOJ

[Weruj1]

in my small town where I am the Asst. Chief it doesnt happen often .......at my full time job it is not unusual for the PD to be delayed in getting to some scenes.

[roundmtnvfd3]

Heres my .02 cents.. "What do firefighters and cops have in common?"... (answer)"They both want to be firefighters!"..

No offence to our faithful boys in blue of course...

[hwoods]

Originally posted by FWDbuff


Why in the world would YOU have to wait for THEM to take THEIR reports? ESPECIALLY when there is a risk of being in more danger IE traffic? If there is a danger, extricate the pt, or do whatever you have to do (put out the fire, whatever) and return!

We NEVER leave until the PD arrives. When someone calls 911, their problem becomes our problem. We have to handle it. Period. And protecting the public, often from their own lack of common sense, is our job. Drive off and leave a wrecked auto in the road, and someone else comes along and hits it, I don't want to be your lawyer or your insurance broker. Also, a Chief or someone will hang out with the first arriving Police Officer until his backup arrives. I do not leave anyone, regardless of their agency affiliation, out on an incident scene.

[stm4710]

Never go to a scene, do your thing and leave without the police there. That accident scene maybe a crime scene.....

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Is this a thing "nowdays". Yes. Absolutely.

There was an article recently in a major law enforcement magazine calling on police everywhere to not respond to assist the FD. The article went on to say to blame it on the same budgetary restraints and policies that are affecting FD's these days, but in reality it is simply because they are fat, lazy, overpaid slobs who do not want to do their job.

[PattyV]

The common idea here is: The quiker you get the road completely closed off, the quiker a cop car will suddenly become 'available' and arrive on scene. :p

[JackTee09]

You don't leave a scene unless the pd has showed up or, on rare instances I have seen in New York City in the 70's and 80's - the PD say they are not going to make it there.

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
Is this a thing "nowdays". Yes. Absolutely.

There was an article recently in a major law enforcement magazine calling on police everywhere to not respond to assist the FD. The article went on to say to blame it on the same budgetary restraints and policies that are affecting FD's these days, but in reality it is simply because they are fat, lazy, overpaid slobs who do not want to do their job.

I wonder how the author of that "article" would feel if there was an article in one of our trade magazines that called on FD's eveywhere not to respond to assist the PD?

Hmmm. Was that article written by a NYPD ESU officer?

PS: George.. is that article on line, and is there a link to it?

[CAPPYY]

When we have an MVA the police are usually there, parked in the worst possible places, making it difficult for us to position our engine and rescue.

When the police are not there, I will call in an xtra engine and shut the road down. We are positioned to get the job done and we are positioned as blockers so no fool can run us down. When the police finally arrive, they always chew me out for havin everything shut down but tuff sh..! When the tow trucks arrive and haul off the vehicles and we sweep and shovel up the mess, then we leave, never before that. I'm a fire/rescue guy and dont concern myself with backed up traffic.

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

[PattyV]

we sweep and shovel up the mess, then we leave, never before that
The way we have it set up over here is that the tow truck drivers have to do that. If they want to get money from towing the cars, they got to clean the glass and stuff up.

[JackTee09]

The way we have it set up over here is that the tow truck drivers have to do that. If they want to get money from towing the cars, they got to clean the glass and stuff up.

Ditto PattyV

[CaptOldTimer]

Originally posted by hwoods


We NEVER leave until the PD arrives. When someone calls 911, their problem becomes our problem. We have to handle it. Period. And protecting the public, often from their own lack of common sense, is our job. Drive off and leave a wrecked auto in the road, and someone else comes along and hits it, I don't want to be your lawyer or your insurance broker. Also, a Chief or someone will hang out with the first arriving Police Officer until his backup arrives. I do not leave anyone, regardless of their agency affiliation, out on an incident scene.

******************************

Harve is correct. This is the policy that we have. If you call, we will come. We may not get a police officer for awhile. We will not leave until the situation is resolved and cleared or relieved by the Police agency. Even then, we make sure that it is safe to leave. On a MVA, we are there until the tow truck has loaded up and left and then we leave.

By the way, the highway or street belongs to US when there is a MVA, auto fire, extrication and or EMS being done. Once we have completed our tasks, then we turn to scene over to the police, proving that they have arrived at the scene. Too many times they try to dictate to us to move the accident and fire trucks off the road way and lets get the traffic going again. We only move when it is safe to do so. It doesn’t happen in Virginia or Maryland!

[doughesson]

If a suicide or weapons are there,even if they are all cased up and locked,we have to wait for the SO to clear the scene before moving in.
I'm told that there have been incidents where family members dragged the patient outside because the EMTs wouldn't go in until the SO arrived.
McCracken County Ky is only 15 miles across but it still takes time when the nearest unit is on a meth raid on the other side of town.
We have a deputy on our department which allows us to have some flexibility in responding to such scenes but he'snot always able to respond when he's off duty.

[Bones42]

I can't think of more than 3 times in 20 years that a PO has not been available. And maybe 30 times that we actually beat and PO to the scene. They have left the scene before we were ready, and we have left the scene before they were ready. We help each other out all the time.

When I was in college in PA, I hardly ever had a PO on any EMS calls and it caught me in some bad spots once in a while.

(I think I'm going to hug my local cops again :D )

[FFTrainer]

We do not have local PD, we are covered by State Police, so there are often times that they will ask if they are needed or not. They will never just not show, but they will try and get out of some of the BS stuff like CO alarms and false fire alarms.

The only time we demand them to show on those incidents is if we had to force entry and the building is now unsecured, other than that we clear without them showing.

It is funny that they are never too busy for a wreck on the interstate. Then you get like 4 cars parked in a line so that your apparatus is like 100 yards away.

[SteveDude]

Requests for Police and Ambulance in London always cause a significant wait...especially the Police...it is a regular thing to hear a Fire Engine call up for an ETA for Police or Ambulance only to have Control come back and say "The Police/Ambulance have no unit assigned yet.

Just part of life in a big city I guess....

[Dave1983]

We have a unique situation. We cover area with 5 different PD agencies (including highway patrol). The only time we really have a probem is with one of the city agencies and highway patrol.

As for to leave or not to leave, if the cars can be moved we mark the positions, move them and leave. PD on scene or not. If they cant be moved and are a hazzard we stay. We cant have ALS units tied up on scenes waiting for PD reports (all of our units are ALS).

[Peetmoss]

Most of the time around here the PD is rolling for any FD call. Difficulty breathing PD, gas main rupture PD in route. Must be slow for the PD around here.

[CAPPYY]

Quote:
The way we have it set up over here is that the tow truck drivers have to do that. If they want to get money from towing the cars, they got to clean the glass and stuff up.
---------------------------------------------

This used to be our policy too cause they do charge for it and we get squat. I changed our policy a while back because doin the cleanup (when all else is done) gets us home faster. It also cuts our time exposed to traffic.

Another thing I did (see if you agree or not) was to no longer allow PD to cancel fire/rescue/ems once we are dispatched. We would get out the door and dispatch would say "as per PD on scene, cancel fire/ems no injuries,no fluids down). I then report "message recieved" and I will send either the engine or rescue back but the ambulance and other apparatus with me onboard still proceed, non-emergent to the scene.(cops aint doctors and I want ems to get a patient signoff and I will be the judge of whether or not a dispatched apparatus is needed).

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

[doughesson]

The old saw about the 911 call about a possible break-in getting a please hold,we have no police available to respond to you turns into"I just shot a home invader." and the cops,EMS,FD and half the world rolls in wondering where the gunshot victim is and asking"I thought you said you shot 'em."with the response that"I thought y'all weren't available."comes to mind.

Originally posted by PattyV
The common idea here is: The quiker you get the road completely closed off, the quicker a cop car will suddenly become 'available' and arrive on scene. :p

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by CAPPYY
Quote:
The way we have it set up over here is that the tow truck drivers have to do that. If they want to get money from towing the cars, they got to clean the glass and stuff up.
---------------------------------------------

This used to be our policy too cause they do charge for it and we get squat. I changed our policy a while back because doin the cleanup (when all else is done) gets us home faster. It also cuts our time exposed to traffic.

Another thing I did (see if you agree or not) was to no longer allow PD to cancel fire/rescue/ems once we are dispatched. We would get out the door and dispatch would say "as per PD on scene, cancel fire/ems no injuries,no fluids down). I then report "message recieved" and I will send either the engine or rescue back but the ambulance and other apparatus with me onboard still proceed, non-emergent to the scene.(cops aint doctors and I want ems to get a patient signoff and I will be the judge of whether or not a dispatched apparatus is needed).

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

1. EMT's aren't doctors either.

2. You realize that signoffs are BS, right? You have mroe liability taking one of them than cancelling enroute.

[PattyV]

Another thing I did (see if you agree or not) was to no longer allow PD to cancel fire/rescue/ems once we are dispatched.
I dont know what would be worse, getting in the truck and going on the way only to be cancelled or to go all the way to the scene and do nothing at all. :p

[britfan1]

Originally posted by PattyV

I dont know what would be worse, getting in the truck and going on the way only to be cancelled or to go all the way to the scene and do nothing at all. :p

(A) Call comes in for a vehicle accident. Crew of engine and rescue scramble for the apparatus bay, casting regretful glances at fast-cooling lunch as they go. Mark enroute.

(B)Rigs get half way to scene... "Radio to all units, P.D. on scene, advising no P.I., No Hazards, all units cancel"

(C) Back to station...maybe lunch can be salvaged..raise food towards mouth...Tones!! And you're back enroute to the same scene because one of these non-injuries has started complaining of back pain, collapsed, has been bleeding from a head injury the whole time...you get the picture.

Happened to us on occasion.

[CAPPYY]

To my knowlege if an emt checks with a patient and that patient refuses care and signs off, it is not bs. Also perhaps I should say that cops are not emts, I want an emt's opinion of the patients condition.

Britfan hits it right on the head about gettin called out a second time to the same call.

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by CAPPYY
To my knowlege if an emt checks with a patient and that patient refuses care and signs off, it is not bs. Also perhaps I should say that cops are not emts, I want an emt's opinion of the patients condition.

Britfan hits it right on the head about gettin called out a second time to the same call.

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

Check some case law in EMS signoffs. You will be shocked and amazed. If you aer cancelled, it is not on you.

An EMT is not qualified to offer an "opinion". They do not diagnose. They treat and they transport.

[CAPPYY]

I will check out the laws about sign offs. The emt's at my station are very good and I value their "opinions" to the point that if they tell me the patient should go to the hospital, I will step in and try to convince the patient to go. I think that after the patient gets done trying to convince the medical people (as they see them) that they dont want to go and then the crusty old firefighter steps in with the opinion that "if these people told me to go, I would go", and "you know when you go in an ambulance you will get right in and if nothing is wrong you will get right out again, what have you got to lose"? This has worked for me many times.

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by CAPPYY
I will check out the laws about sign offs. The emt's at my station are very good and I value their "opinions" to the point that if they tell me the patient should go to the hospital, I will step in and try to convince the patient to go. I think that after the patient gets done trying to convince the medical people (as they see them) that they dont want to go and then the crusty old firefighter steps in with the opinion that "if these people told me to go, I would go", and "you know when you go in an ambulance you will get right in and if nothing is wrong you will get right out again, what have you got to lose"? This has worked for me many times.

God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

I didn't say laws, I said "case law". It is not the same thing.

Why would the crusty old fire fighter try to coerce someone to go to the hospital if they don't want to go to the hospital?

Scenario: EMS is dispatched to a private residence on a report of a stabbing. EMS is presented with an irate and intoxicated man in the street with what appear to be superficial lacerations to his arms. He has no shirt on so a 5-second check (Looks OK, Sounds OK, Smells OK) shows him to not be seriously injured. He is screaming at the police and at the attacker who is in the rear of the patrol car. He then is screaming at EMS.

EMS approaches patient and tries to assess him. Pt. says "F&*^ you! You are not !@#$%^ touching me and I am not %^$#@ going to the (*&^% hospital. He then retreats inside his house and locks the door.

What do you do? Tell you what I did. Wrote "RMA by action" at the end of the run chart and went back to quarters. Never got called back, either.

Any wonder why there are some volly EMS systems who can't get a crew when they are specifically dispatched to come get a refusal? That's nuts. If refusals were so great, why don't the cops carry them?

[Bones42]

George, when that happened to me, the cops went in and arrested the guy and put him in handcuffs. They then had us treat his wounds. They then came with us in the ambulance while we took him to the hospital. (and no, we didn't make the cops leave their guns behind ;) )

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by Bones42
George, when that happened to me, the cops went in and arrested the guy and put him in handcuffs. They then had us treat his wounds. They then came with us in the ambulance while we took him to the hospital. (and no, we didn't make the cops leave their guns behind ;) )

If that happened in my situation, the cops would have been wrong. They had no probable cause or exigent circumstances to enter a secured residence and take someone into custody when he did not commit a crime.

What crime did your victim commit? Being a victim is not a crime. Being injured is not a crime. You can't put someone in cuffs in order to treat injuries. They must have committed an offense.

[Bones42]

What crime did your victim commit? Honestly don't know. That was their decision and I try not to get too involved in their stuff.

I have seen them, at other times, put someone under arrest, in their words, "for their own safety". I also notice, there are a few situations where people are arrested for "tumultuous(sp?) behavior". I think it's generally used for people that are P.I.T.A. and uncooperative.

[stm4710]

Originally posted by Bones42


I have seen them, at other times, put someone under arrest, in their words, "for their own safety".
Do you mean that the person was placed in protective custody???? That is different than being arrested....but you are placed in cuffs.

[Bones42]

I'll defer to that definition. To me, once the cuff's go on, your under arrest....but I'm not a cop.

[CAPPYY]

Senerio:
Fire/Ambulance dispatched to pedestrian hit by vehicle. We arrive on scene and there is this guy who was hit by a car while riding a bicycle. He bounced off the hood of the car and then bounced off a building. Cuts and scrapes, some bleeding. He is refusing to go to the hospital. Emt's and Medics are trying to convince him to go to no avail. Emt Captain tells me this guy should go, no tellin what internal injuries he may have. Now this is good enough for me!
This business is not about whats coverin my ass or not, this is not about civil rights or patient rights or none of that stuff! This is about some poor guy who might end up dead later on from internal injuries! He may not be thinking right I dont know! All I do know is I care about this guy and his family! I go down to one knee, eyeball to eyeball with him and say "buddy, you could be more hurt than you know right now, I know of people who had injuries to their guts and ended up dieing later. I work with these medics all the time and when they say you need to go to the hospital, you need to go. If you go in an ambulance, you'll get right in and if you are really OK, You'll get right out again. What have you and your family got to loose, except maybe you?"

Guy says OK, I'll go, and we pack him up real quick before he changes his mind again. Chaulk one up for everyones efforts, even the crusty old fireman!

[CJMinick390]

I have a problem with telling people that if they go in the ambulance they will be seen more quickly in the ER. It may be a regional thing, but unfortunately some people around here use the ER as their health clinic and they call the ambulance for transport to the ER (regardless of the seriousness of their complaint) in an attempt to short circuit the triage process. That is they think they will be seen more quickly if they come in by ambulance vs. coming in as a "walk in." It doesn't work that way.

What they are doing is tying up a unit on a non-emergent call (we don't have the right to refuse transport) and we're stuck at the hospital with them on our cot because the ER does not have a bed and they won't put these people to the front of the triage line. We can't leave them at the hospital until the charge nurse signs off or we run the risk of being charged with abandonment. Consequently, we often have one or more units out of service at the various hospitals leaving us short of units on the street.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by Bones42
Honestly don't know. That was their decision and I try not to get too involved in their stuff.

I have seen them, at other times, put someone under arrest, in their words, "for their own safety". I also notice, there are a few situations where people are arrested for "tumultuous(sp?) behavior". I think it's generally used for people that are P.I.T.A. and uncooperative.

It's complicated, but there are vry few reasons in NJ that a person can be put in so-called "protective custody". Most of them are mental health related and require the intervention of an MHP. In NJ, you simply cannot deprive someone of their liberty, for the most part, unless they have committed an offense.

The cops were, in all likelihood, wrong. Not saying 100% because I wasn't there.

[LadyCapn]

George!!! Such language!!!:eek: I think you used a few words there even I haven't heard of :p

CJ, I agree. You have no idea how many people we pick up who admit right to you that they were going to drive, but figured they get in faster if they called us. We even had a guy, his daughter drove him to the ER in her car, looked in the window, saw how many people were in the waiting room, drove home and called 911. When EMS got there they openly admitted what they did, and said he was too uncomfortable to sit in the waiting room for hours :rolleyes:

[Resq14]

Originally posted by roundmtnvfd3
Heres my .02 cents.. "What do firefighters and cops have in common?"... (answer)"They both want to be firefighters!"..

I think if a scientific analysis were performed, the results would be just the opposite.

[PattyV]

Being injured is not a crime
Obvioulsy you have never been a injured rugby player that has no one to fill his spot whilst chasing a championship. The hard time i got from the fellas when i dislocated my shoulder was classic.

Yesterday our local hospital (major hospital for the largest non-capitol city in Australia) had an overflow of patients for no apparent reason and there wasnt enough beds for them. There has been lots of argument over whether we need a new hospital or not and this just proved it. If we had an incident like what happened in London, we would be turning people away that had limbs falling off. Just goes to show you how shotty labour governments can be :rolleyes: :mad: