Certification-mania

[JackTee09]

Prior to starting this thread let me note that training, and documenting training, is vital. This thread in no way belittles or tries to undermine the need for certification in areas of importance.

It seems that in the past two years the rise of people stating what they are certified in, as opposed to what they know, has become a bit over the top.

While the training is vital far too many courses are taught with certification, rather than knowledge, in mind. This leads to some firefighters feeling that if they pile on certifications - that alone makes them who they are as a firefighter. Big mistake.

Having pride in what you have accomplished is certainly something understandable - if it meets the needs of your ego - then all is well. However, like many, hearing someone boast of having 365 certifications makes me think that perhaps, like the eternal graduate student, they have accomplished little.

Certifications are important - but they are far less important than knowledge. Give me a firefighter with the minimum certifications who knows his or her job - and you take the guy who is so busy getting the next certification he can barely remember the material from the previous set of classes. 9 times out of 10 my guy will perform better.

[sconfire]

Very well said... the saying "Jack of all trades... master of none" Comes to mind.

pardon the pundom towards your name! :D

[cozmosis]

In nearly every 12-16 hour fire academy class I've taken, there has been at least one guy who said his goal for the class was "to get a certificate." :rolleyes: I've even met folks who have all of those pieces of paper hanging on their walls at home.

[sconfire]

I've even met folks who have all of those pieces of paper hanging on their walls at home.
Ahhhhhh... the infamous "I Love Me Wall"! :rolleyes:

[jaybird210]

I try to explain to people that certification is important to prove thrid-party confirmation of training and skills.

This is far diffent from getting a certificate, which seems to be the way of the world now. Seems like every little seminar or class or training program has to hand out a "Certificate of Completion." Lah-tee-dah. I slept through your whole damn class, does that mean I still get a cert? And I too have seen the wall with every single certificate framed and hanging like it was a diploma. Love me walls are one thing, but any jamoke can pump out certificates on a computer. Ask Jack Boczek!:D :o

[hwoods]

I have Certificates. I have Certification. There IS a difference. Those who know and understand the difference do not seem to be a problem. Those who don't, however, do seem to be a bit..... well..... You know...... "wackerish?"

[JackTee09]

Very well said... the saying "Jack of all trades... master of none" Comes to mind.

Firefighters are, in many ways, jacks of all trades. For instance if someone knows Hazardous Materials like the back of his hand-yet fails to comprehend the basics of fire science he is a master at one and a failure at the other. Not too good.

I once listened to a very respected fire service leader state that he loved jacks of all trades - and I tend to agree with him-as long as they know the basics of their jobs.




Seems like every little seminar or class or training program has to hand out a "Certificate of Completion."

That is so very true. Sometimes when I get through in the restroom I wonder where my certificate of completion is? :D

[jaybird210]

Sometimes when I get through in the restroom I wonder where my certificate of completion is?

And sometimes we really earn a Certificate of Completion for that!!!:D

[JackTee09]

:D True JayBird!

[JJonesy]

I'm certifiable. Does that count?

[pete892]

I only have one thing on the wall and that is a plaque for a rescue of a family. Since I am now retired, my wife thinks I should have a scrapbook of all by certificates, etc. Most are in a pile or folder on my desk or somewhere. I'm still looking.

As I observe young firefighters today, I see way too many that seem to substitute "paper" for "knowledge". I am a strong advocate for training but last time I checked it was hard to put out a fire with paper. HWoods is right that their is big difference between certificates and certification.

Still no substitute for experience.

Stay safe,

Pete

[Fawlty]

Ok.. I have seen it all now (well, not really)..

A thread complaining about people who go out of their way to get certified in as many aspects of the job that they can!! Let me get this straight, the original complaint was about FF's who try to get as many certifications (not attendance certificates) as they can to prove they are a better firefighter, or define who 'they are' as a firefighter??? This is based against those firefighters who state 'what they know', or as was previously stated, based on their knowledge.

This really does have to be one of the dumbest complaints I have seen to date..

Knowledge is essentially gained through education and experience, as firefighter's we like experience because it seems to also provide a healthy dose of additional information that the book doesn't always cover. (Plus experience adds to that layer of crust that we all seem to covet).

Education is absolutely necessary and provides a good base so firefighters can understand what they learn through experience, and gives a good starting point.

Certification (not certificates of attendance) provides as some one else stated basically a confirmation to a third party (new chief, employer etc) that the holder of the certificate has taken said training, has usually passed an exam (practical, theory or both) meaning that they were able to understand and reproduce the information presented to them at a level acceptable to the governing body who certifies the course. Where is the problem?????? You've got people in the department actively seeking training to a level that they can certify in, and your moaning????? Would you rather they asked about playing poker??? Is certification alone the be all and end all.. of course not, but I'd take it over the guy sitting in the armchair telling me they've been there and done that yet their 'love me' wall is filled only with cobwebs and photo's of fires from yesteryear.

Dumb complaint!! If you don't want the FF's that actively seek education and certificates, send 'em my way.. I'll be happy to send you by return mail the guys who'll pull up a sandbag, swing the lampshade and tell you about all they know, though, haven't taken contininuing ed' this side of the millenium.

As for Certificates of Attendance, well they're necessary for those of us that have to submit proof of continuing education to keep our BS certifications.. my what a shock, to maintain some certifications you have to stay on top of current trends, that truly is terrible and definitely worth a second complaint orientated thread.

Just my tuppence!!

[JackTee09]

A thread complaining about people who go out of their way to get certified in as many aspects of the job that they can!! Let me get this straight, the original complaint was about FF's who try to get as many certifications (not attendance certificates) as they can to prove they are a better firefighter, or define who 'they are' as a firefighter??? This is based against those firefighters who state 'what they know', or as was previously stated, based on their knowledge.

Fawlty:

First and foremost you make valuable points. The idea is not to discourage nor defile those who seek certifications to better serve the community. No-not it at all.

Instead - there are those who seek every certification out there and point to that-and that only-as proof of their viability as a firefighter. Instead of using someone else I will use me - I have many certifications - in fact quite a few in the last two years. Yet, that "alone" does not make me educated.

Educated in the fire service means a keen study of all of the basics. We all KNOW of courses where the sole goal is to hand out the certifications.

Imagine if the airborne were like this - as soon as you became basic jump qualified you could then, via classroom only, become level II, III and on up to Master Parachutist - passing the exams but not really being educated because you have yet to experience the requiste jumps-you have no time in grade as it were.




but I'd take it over the guy sitting in the armchair telling me they've been there and done that yet their 'love me' wall is filled only with cobwebs and photo's of fires from yesteryear.

Why the hostility to those who have gone before you? Are they not brothers? And who is sitting in an armchair?

This really does have to be one of the dumbest complaints I have seen to date..

Wow - you don't get out often, huh?

[MEBRVCDF]

Fawlty,

You must be new. The original post wasn't to say certificates are not important. Rather it was that many people believe a certficate is equivalent to knowledge. What good is taking a class and receiving a certificate for it if you can't remember anything or perform on the par required.

For example, let's say you take a class on low angle rescue and receive a certificate. What good is that certificate if you can't set up z-rig or tie the basic knots required or can't remember what various pieces of equipment are called.

Next time slow down and read a little more carefully.

[JackTee09]

MEBRVCDF

You hit the nail on the head brother!

[Co11FireGal]

Originally posted by cozmosis
In nearly every 12-16 hour fire academy class I've taken, there has been at least one guy who said his goal for the class was "to get a certificate." :rolleyes: I've even met folks who have all of those pieces of paper hanging on their walls at home.

Very true...or how about when an instructor asks, "Why are you here?"

And the reply is, "Because the state/county requires it," or "Because I have to have it to be an officer in my dept." :rolleyes:

Certificates are necessary for documentation. I keep mine all in one place so I can copy them to take to classes to prove completion of prerequisites, but they definitely (IMO) don't belong all on an "I love me" wall, as someone stated. I do have a couple of certificates on my wall. Two to be exact...one for being my department's first junior firefighter, which was presented to me by my grandfather (that means a lot to me) on my 18th birthday when I was accepted as a full member of my dept., and the other is not fire-related but was earned after nearly 10 years of martial arts training.

Different certificates are going to mean different things to different people. I don't see anything wrong with displaying a certificate that was well-earned for something like years of outstanding service. On the other hand, displaying every single certificate of participation from every little weekend class though? Well, that seems a little weird to me.

People need to ask themselves when it comes to classes and certificates/certifications, "I am here to learn and get better at my job or to make my dept. better, or because....?" If the answer isn't the prior, you are wasting your time and everyone else's. Not to mention your or your department's money.

[stm4710]

Some people are into getting cert's just for the $$$$$. Alot of carrer departments and LE departments give stipends for EMT and college degrees. Alot of cops in my EMT class didnt give a dam about EMS.........they were there just for the extra $2,500 a year. :cool:

I teach part of the course for the C.E.R.T program. So when I print up the certificates for the students, I make them for the dept. EMT's as well.If you submit the certificate to OEMS with a sylibus you get 16 hours credit toward your 28 hours. :)

[JackTee09]

Co11FireGal

You are right! My personal favorite is:

him/her: "I'm certified in everything!"
Me: "That's nice."

[SpartanGuy]

There's a flip side to the certificate wall thing. It inspires confidence in the general public, and at least demonstrates a level of competency and knowledge to have it issued.

For example, our building inspector has his 'Fire Inspector II', "BOCA Code Administrator" etc etc etc. etc. certificates on his office wall to show that he knows what he's talking about when he yells at a store in the mall for wanting to lock their exit doors, for example.

I mean, do you criticize your dentist for hanging his dental license on the wall;)

[JackTee09]

I mean, do you criticize your dentist for hanging his dental license on the wall

No. In fact I want to see it first thing! :D

Yet, with this job, a firefighter rarely has the chance to show anyone his certificates. And, as with most things, most people don't care. Besides I am not talking about hanging a certification - I am talking about the fascination with obtaining certifications as if that is the sole barometer of your success.

To use the physician analogy:

You may have a doc who went to Harvard, did his residency at Johns Hopkins, and is on the faculty of a prestigious school. Great! Yet when it comes time for him or her to do the job what you really want is them to perform-not tell you all of their credentials - because none of those things means a damn thing if they screw up.

In many fields they call it the "Glare of Gold" - the people look great, have all of the requisite credentials and then some - but are totally hopeless when it comes to performing.

[SpartanGuy]

I totally agree with you. I know certificates don't make a firefighter, I was just commenting that not everyone who hangs their stuff up is a glory boy wacker:)

[spyonline]

So who should you be upset with?

The FF accepting the half ass cert

The instructor giving out the half ass cert

Or the dept. sending him/her to the half ass cert. class

[JackTee09]

So who should you be upset with?

That is a great question.

What's your take Spyonline?

[spyonline]

All three should be held responsible. To who? I'm sure that will come out in the field.

[JackTee09]

In every learning situation there will always be those who are "book smart".

Thats not what I am getting at here. Most of the guys who go all out to gain certifications as quickly as possible don't retain the information. It has nothing to do with "smarts".


So because a few get a lot of certifications and don't know what they are doing we condemn the whole system.

Is that what happens?

[CAPPYY]

My 2 cents...

The most certified fire/rescue/emt I have ever known in all my years on the job and the dumbest, freelancin, get everybody killed guy I ever met were one in the same!


God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

[PFDTruck2]

I know a guy who goes to every class or on-line seminar to get every cert. available, but as soon as the tones drop he's not to be found.

[THEFIRENUT]

This is a very interesting discussion. If you meet someone who has a "collection" of "certs", but not the smarts to back it up,you might place everyone that has "certs" into one group. Instead, lets put everyone that says that he/she can do the job(with or without the "certs"), but doesn't, in one group.

I do like the idea of having a paper trail of the training that one has had. When going from one dept. to another, it gives them an idea on what has been taught to that individual. But still the individual must show what he/she still knows about their past training.

All in all, I think that having "certs" is a good idea as long as they are followed by the appropriate actions. Just MHO.

[wvfd05]

I would agree with the statement that a certificate hanging on the wall that required no demonstration of skills learned isn't the ideal situation. I think that someone has already mentioned that the training system be re-styled to a combination of practical hands-on applications as well as classroom lectures and a test at the end of the class to achieve a certificate.

This type of training would do two things,

1) It would be a confidence builder to the trainees to perform the skills learned,

2) "Certificate Only" firefighters would pretty much be eliminated through testing and demonstration.

[snowball]

I have a few certs, I prefer "Lifesavers":D

Seriously, when I take a class, it is to advance my education status so I can achieve that elusive AA degree. I have made it a rule to take what I'm taught in a class with a grain of salt. I say this because in the 14+ years on the job I have rarely used any of the "filler" that is taught beyond the basics.
I have to admit though, most of the classes I have attended recently, a guy could sleep through most of it and still recieve a cert because you paid for the class.:rolleyes:

[DrParasite]

So your saying people should only get the minimums, and then wait and hope they get the experience to use it in the field?

like, just get FF1, and blow off all those other "worthless" certs? skip the con-ed stuff, it's just a way to stroke one's ego? yeah, who needs courses in EMS, motor vehicle extrication, hazmat, ICS, those who get those courses are just trying to make themselves justify to the world that they are real firefighters? after all, you would never need any formal training on that stuff, right? you can just get the basics, and the rest will be learned though on the job training, right?

not all of us have the luxury of having a structure fire every week, so we can practice what we learn in class, and gain that experience that is so important to the fire service.

I would imagine in most rural and suburban departments, it would be a fair assessment that most of the calls you go on will not be structure fires, and less than 10% of total alarms will be "real calls."

but forget about all those certifications (above the minimums) and continuing education courses, they are all just a way for a wacker to stroke his own ego :rolleyes:

[JackTee09]

like, just get FF1, and blow off all those other "worthless" certs? skip the con-ed stuff, it's just a way to stroke one's ego? yeah, who needs courses in EMS, motor vehicle extrication, hazmat, ICS, those who get those courses are just trying to make themselves justify to the world that they are real firefighters? after all, you would never need any formal training on that stuff, right? you can just get the basics, and the rest will be learned though on the job training, right?

Once again this is not about learning the basics -it's about people who go after cert after cert only to be questioned later and be unable to recall very much. It has to do with having 200 certifications and believing yourself ready to step into a position solely based on those certs -
"Hey I have Fire Officer I, II, and II so time for me to be Chief!"

That is dangerous for the firefighter, those around him/her and the public.

[hwoods]

It is never useless to take the time to get a Certificate in something. It IS useless to do so when you have no intention of getting the experience to utilize the knowledge that you have, out in the field. THAT is a waste. I have a friend of many years who thakes courses all the time. He has not ridden a piece of Apparatus in several years, and will not again. In my opinion, he is taking up space that an active Firefighter could use, but there is no rule barring him from attending, so he keeps it up. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about administrative stuff either, this guy goes to the Chief's seminars, etc.