P.D. Dispatcher delays F.D. Dispatch

[BHFF22]

In my town the Police Dept dispatches all public safety, recently they have begun the practice of sending patrol cars on occasion without dispatching F.D., to verify what is needed, this has ranged from smoke detector activations to reported transformer explosions & fire, fire alarm activations and most recently a reported auto fire on the interstate which turned out to be in a different jusisdiction but there were people burned in the car and if it had turned out being in my town there would have been a couple min's of delay in F.D. being dispatched. I was wondering if anyone reading this has experienced something similar or know of any past situations where this type of delay has caused a fatality or injury, and are there any laws regarding this subject?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

There are no laws in NJ on this.

This is a problem that CANNOT be fixed at the time of dispatch. To fix this problem, your fire chief has to get down to the Police Chief's Office today...right now...and discuss this problem as professionals. Perghaps there are (perceived) legitimate issues on the part of the PD that has caused them to make the change. Perhaps there are unresolved "issues" between the two departments. Perhaps there is a clearly misinformed superior officer who has issued a new dierctove. Whatever the problem, your Chief should fix it now rather than later. No letters, no "show of force" no crying to Mayor. Two men sitting down face-to-face across the desk from each other acting like professionals.

[cozmosis]

I've been down this same road in two seperate towns. Although I've seen several close calls because of police dispatchers sending patrol cars before dispatching the fire department... The best (or, rather, worst) example happened in my hometown in 1999. (I previously told the story in <A HREF="http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?threadid=58832">this thread</A>, which you may want to check out.)

The county-wide dispatch back home is run by the police department. One night, they received several calls about heavy smoke in a residential neighborhood. They sent a police officer to investigate. He dismissed the smoke as being from an area sawmill. Moments later, dispatch paged out the FD when someone called to report the real cause of the smoke -- a working house fire (see below).

<IMG SRC="http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/attachment.php?s=&amp;postid=41294 5">

I like George's advice. Hopefully, your chief is a problem solver and he can sit down with the police chief and work things out.

[adamkhalil]

This reminds me of a cartoon i saw at my department one day. It's like a comic strip and the cop pulls up (parks in front of the hydrant) walks inside the house and down to the basement, leaving all doors open along the way, where he sees the couch is lightly smoldering from a cigarette left unattended. The next strip shows 5 minutes later with the cop outside and FD arriving on scene with a fully involved house fire, while the cop scratches his head with a question mark over it and says "it was barely going when I got here..." lol

[SafetyPro]

This is definitely a situation that should be discussed between your FD and PD chiefs. I don't see any advantage to sending a PD officer first...you're still dispatching city resources, so why not start fire? If PD gets on-scene and the FD's not needed, they can always cancel the responding units.

All 911 calls go to the PD dispatcher first here. If its a fire or EMS call, the dispatcher will then "transfer" the caller to the regional fire dispatch center. I believe the PD dispatcher has the ability to continue listening while this is done, and will often simultaneously dispatch PD units to the scene.

The other night when I had the ambulance, I was listening to the scanner and heard PD dispatched to a slip/fall on a pool deck. I stood up and started for the door about 10 seconds before my pager went off with the same call from our dispatch.

[JackTee09]

There is obviously a disconnect between the fire and police. If it is a miscommunication it can be resolved fairly quickly. While I agree that the best method is for the Chief to speak with his counterpart - if it fails then it must be taken up to the next level. In fact, hopefully while all of this is being written, the situation is now resolved.

The photograph above is a sobering reminder of what delayed responses mean. I would not want that on my back - I doubt the police chief does either. At any rate- best of luck.

[Bones42]

Few years ago, a town near me went through this exact problem. Went on for about 2 years and actually was not a problem for those 2 years. Then there was the night the patrol car was sent for a fire alarm sounding. PO pulled up and and saw nothing showing so FD was not dispatched. Something (luckily) made him walk around to the back of the building. When he got there, he found smoke and flame blowing out the back windows. The way the wind was blowing, nothing showed from the front. Turned out to be a 3 or 4 minute delay in FD notification, and probably did not make much difference due to the amount of fire anyway, but it finally led to the FD complaining enough to Mayor and Council that they finally listened and directed the PD to go back to dispatching FD along with PD on fire related calls.

FD Chief's had already sat down with PD Chief to discuss this. The policy was not changed until the Mayor directed it to be. To this day, not many people, other than the PD Chief know why it was changed, but a lot of people had asked and gotten no answer. FD never was told why the change was made. By the way, he is not PD Chief anymore.

And I agree with everyone above, have the Chiefs sit down together and resolve it. No guarantee it will work, but it's definitely the first step.

[SpartanGuy]

Despite all of the other problems in our area, our county did the 911 system right.

They established a separate entity entirely for handling the county dispatch. No police chiefs, fire chiefs, or EMS directors involved(unless they work there for their job or something).

Calls come in to one of three or four call takers, they type up the call sheet, check the little boxes on the computer for the agencies needed to respond, click the send box. the run sheet then pops up at each selected agencies dispatching console simultaneously. No sending the police to find out if its a worker before the FD or anything like that.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy
Despite all of the other problems in our area, our county did the 911 system right.

They established a separate entity entirely for handling the county dispatch. No police chiefs, fire chiefs, or EMS directors involved(unless they work there for their job or something).

Calls come in to one of three or four call takers, they type up the call sheet, check the little boxes on the computer for the agencies needed to respond, click the send box. the run sheet then pops up at each selected agencies dispatching console simultaneously. No sending the police to find out if its a worker before the FD or anything like that.

In a perfect world, that is the way to go.

However, this instance is in NJ. NJ is the "Home Rule Capital" of the world. It is very common to have municipal energency services to be dispatched out of a single seat PD employee manned dispatch center.

[maden11]

Odd that you post this. This happened today in our city. Police dispatch (who dispatches all public safety agencies) sent a police officer to a report of smoke coming from a house. Upon arrival it was a confirmed working structure fire. The Fire Chief has already been to the Police Chief considering he was at the fire also...was not a pretty site. Also this was not the first time this has happened. I guess our dispatchers don't know the protocols. Bet they will learn now!

[hwoods]

I don't know if we're the first state to do so, but in Maryland each County must have a separate dispatch center, must use E-911 systems, and all agencies in the County must use the system. Only problems in recent years have been the State Police, who have been slow to pass on calls to the 911 centers, that they received thru their local phones. That seems to have been fixed though. BTW, in 90% of the State, Cops only go to a FD event when invited, unless a prior protocol is established. Truth is, they don't have time anyway, they have their own stuff to do. We do enjoy a good working relationship with the PD at all times. Problems are rare, and usually involve a personality conflict.

[MemphisE34a]

Lucky for us, pertaining to this situation our police department's favorite PD advice is as follows:


"E34 - police advise they have no cars available."


This almost always seems to be a problem in small towns only. As George said, it normally ends up being some kind of power struggle between the fire and police chief.

Good luck.

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy
Despite all of the other problems in our area, our county did the 911 system right.

They established a separate entity entirely for handling the county dispatch. No police chiefs, fire chiefs, or EMS directors involved(unless they work there for their job or something).

Calls come in to one of three or four call takers, they type up the call sheet, check the little boxes on the computer for the agencies needed to respond, click the send box. the run sheet then pops up at each selected agencies dispatching console simultaneously. No sending the police to find out if its a worker before the FD or anything like that.

Sort of like ours. All 911 calls to a county center. If they determine its a PD call, they send it to the appropriate agency. If its a fire call, the dispatch it and handle the tac channels. If its an EMS call, they dispatch the FD first responder, then send the call to the county ambulance dispatch center that handles EMD and dispatching of ambulances. All agencies (FD, PD & ambulance) are on the same 800 system and can communicate with each other if needed.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by hwoods
I don't know if we're the first state to do so, but in Maryland each County must have a separate dispatch center, must use E-911 systems, and all agencies in the County must use the system. Only problems in recent years have been the State Police, who have been slow to pass on calls to the 911 centers, that they received thru their local phones. That seems to have been fixed though. BTW, in 90% of the State, Cops only go to a FD event when invited, unless a prior protocol is established. Truth is, they don't have time anyway, they have their own stuff to do. We do enjoy a good working relationship with the PD at all times. Problems are rare, and usually involve a personality conflict.

Just another example of how MD is years ahead of th rest of the US in providing emergency services.

[fireguy919]

Is this not amazing. And I thought our department was the only one this happened to(notice the sarcasm in that). We had the same problem. When our chief started addressing this pd told him. “You guys are volunteer no reason to call you out of bed for nothing at midnight.” Ok so it was not midnight when the call that changed their minds come in. Call was give to pd to check lot of smoke in the area Annsley Rd. Near the church. Not only did our Asst. Chief hear this and get dressed so did the trustee of the church. The trustee beat everyone there as the pd did not run hot to the call. The trustee opened all the doors to clear out the smoke for us. Pd arrived at same time as our Asst. Chief. Which was about 12 minutes in to the call. From the time pd gave the call till we where toned out was 14 minutes. When the state fire marshal arrived on scene wanted to know why it took us 18 minutes to get on scene. We gave him are actual times and the times pd had.
That was the incident that changed it all. Or at least so far. Now we even get toned out to check cars over heating. Police chief came out to talk to fire chief and got an ear full from the fire marshal and ATF agents as well. The poor guy come out to set up a meeting to change policies

[fireguy919]

Another Picture from a neighbor when we started to arrive

[nmfire]

Originally posted by fireguy919
“You guys are volunteer no reason to call you out of bed for nothing at midnight.”

Well, at least he was looking out for our well being...

Sometimes I've found that certain individuals from the PD don't like the "big deal" we make of somewhat minor incidents. For example, a minor MVA with some fluids spilled and very minor if any injuries. PD just wants "someone to get a refusal and put some speedi-dri down." The FD executes their normal response to an MVA which ends up with two engines, a heavy rescue, light duty rescue (EMS), three fire officers, a utility truck for traffic control, the ambulance, and a medic fly car.

[JackTee09]

Sometimes I've found that certain individuals from the PD don't like the "big deal" we make of somewhat minor incidents.

Really?

[cozmosis]

Originally posted by nmfire
For example, a minor MVA with some fluids spilled and very minor if any injuries. PD just wants "someone to get a refusal and put some speedi-dri down." The FD executes their normal response to an MVA which ends up with two engines, a heavy rescue, light duty rescue (EMS), three fire officers, a utility truck for traffic control, the ambulance, and a medic fly car.

If you've got good information (from police on scene) that there are no injuries, why do you dispatch apparatus as though there were? I totally believe in expecting for the worst and hoping for the best. However, sending a full box alarm for spilled fluids is silly and it endangers the motoring public and your firefighters in the process.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by cozmosis


If you've got good information (from police on scene) that there are no injuries, why do you dispatch apparatus as though there were? I totally believe in expecting for the worst and hoping for the best. However, sending a full box alarm for spilled fluids is silly and it endangers the motoring public and your firefighters in the process.


WARNING! WARNING! ATTEMPTED HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!

[CaptainGonzo]

On the other hand... I have been called back to accident scenes after receiving excellent reports from the PD nd a cancellation when someone all of a sudden has "neck/back pain"... usually as a result of finding out they are being cited in the accident!

Fire Alarm and Police Control are in the same building (it is at the Police Station) and work side by side. We also cross monitor the PD's frequencies, so if we hear the PD report that there are serious injuries we are already set up to deal with it prior to it being announced.

[SpartanGuy]

Gonzo,
That's like how EMS always has to go to the courthouse for 'chest pains, possible heart attack' for those people who have just been sentenced.....

[Weruj1]

We have that problem, but it is not nearly as bad as before. When we changed dispatch centers we made a Dispatcher Handbook, it included every policy and procedure the FD does, even if it was only one sentence. When they make a mistake I talk to the appropriate PD official and then fax over my written report, and the copy of the SOG they messed up on ........it is so easy, but a PAIN.

[ptfd19]

I heard the full call of Fireguy's church fire & there were major delays in getting the info to the fire side. if i heard correctly the PD also dispatches the FD and saved a couple minutes (once they were called).....just imagine if she actually had to call someone else to send the FD.

that is the one good thing about my area, of the 19 FD's in the county 10 are dispatched from PD/FD centers and are treated fairly equally in their importance. the other 9 come from one FD only center and obviously we put FD dispatch as our priority.

[ptfd19]

I heard the full call of Fireguy's church fire & there were major delays in getting the info to the fire side. if i heard correctly the PD also dispatches the FD and saved a couple minutes (once they were called).....just imagine if she actually had to call someone else to send the FD.

that is the one good thing about this area, of the 19 FD's in the county 10 are dispatched from PD/FD centers and are treated fairly equally in their importance. the other 9 come from one FD only center and obviously we put FD dispatch as our priority.

[cozmosis]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
WARNING! WARNING! ATTEMPTED HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!

Thank you for contributing so much to this thread.

[fireguy919]

Originally posted by ptfd19
I heard the full call of Fireguy's church fire & there were major delays in getting the info to the fire side. if i heard correctly the PD also dispatches the FD and saved a couple minutes (once they were called).....just imagine if she actually had to call someone else to send the FD.

that is the one good thing about this area, of the 19 FD's in the county 10 are dispatched from PD/FD centers and are treated fairly equally in their importance. the other 9 come from one FD only center and obviously we put FD dispatch as our priority.

Boy that was one of those calls we should have never left the garage. Our dispatcher is done one of the local ambulance companies and not the pd. Luck for us she was listening and hit us out when pd called. Are main engine that was run on another call that day would not release the park break. (Luck for us we have a back up engine and automatic mutual aid for structure fires.) It was unreal to arrive on scene. Heavy smoke showing from the roof but when you went into the building there was nothing till they moved some ceiling tiles. The whole upper half was involved and took off from there. The church was a barn that was remodeled to be a church. What a night that was. You guys that where listening sorry for the cluster you had to listen to.

[fcr222]

I have been reading the posts on this subject. We had the same problem in our town for years. We finally got it resolved. It took the right line officer who sat down with the Police Chief and hashed out the problems. It also took getting the town council involved.
To the guy that said there was no law in NJ, not specifically, but there is a law on the books that states the Fire Chief is the authority, as well as a law that says it is unlawful not to report an emergency to the proper authority. Since "Fire" is defined as "any condition that can cause a fire", that is the States , definition. It is unlawful for a police dispatcher not to dispatch the "Proper Auth" that is the Fire Dept. to a potential "Fire".
The Fire Chief also has the authority to Mandate dispatch procedures to the Police Dispatcher. Remember under Federal 9-1-1 laws and the State of NJ telecommunicatiosn law, we do not have "Police" dispatchers, we have Public Safety answer points. We got an opinion on this from the Boro attorney. What happened is the Fire Chief wrote a set of dispatch procedures and the Police Chief made them part of the General Rules of the PD. Viola, no more issues.
We are dispatched on everything now and the police can do what they are supposed to do, that is patrol the town. Fire Departments are there for a reason, and if the Police do not dispatch they are putting the municipality at risk of litigation, not to mention delay of response.
Sorry for the long post, this has been a pet peeve of mine for years.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by cozmosis


Thank you for contributing so much to this thread.

Check the first page of the thread, genius.

[Rescuepimp]

Some areas seem to have this problem, some dont. But of the areas that do, something DOES need to be done. In the town I used to live I've witnessed Some of the PD dipatchers do exactly the same thing. I believed then and still do that there motive was to send a message that they were the ultimate Public Saftey official. Boost there run stats(to get more grants) I wasnt the only one who thought that. There was actually a heated debate on that issue. Seeming it only arised when 3 certain dispatchers were working, they were let go. Weather or not its true, or its true in any other cases I dont know. But if it is infact the case, something needs to be done.

[hwoods]

This seems to be a problem no matter where you go (with a few exceptions.) There is a solution, and the increased emphasis on homeland security may well be what drives this solution to be implemented across the country, and that solution is regionalization. There is really no vaild reason that I can find, for NOT spreading the cost of Dispatch Centers over a Countywide area. Eventually, Grant money will make this possible, and the Feds will push for mandating it. Dispatch Centers will be operated by a separate agency, with a strong set of procedures in place.

[Bones42]

HWoods, come to Ocean County, NJ. You can witness the most screwed up, impractical, mistake ridden County run dispatch center. 3 floors of heaven. 1 floor is all FD dispatchers, 1 floor is all PD dispatchers, 1 floor is all EMS dispatchers. And you guessed it, 1 floor can't talk to the other floor, they actually have to call each other by phone. Your County setup works well for you, everything my County has tried to do, well, you can see why we don't use them.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I was just about to point out that Harve's post is 100% accurate-except in talking about NJ.

[DrParasite]

I've heard that some people like Somerset County's dispatch center, but several EMS squads insisted on having their local PD dispatch them, because the County dispatch was absolutely horrible. I have experienced very few first hand issues with them though.

and then I think about the township dispatch at my parents house, and all I can think is if this went county wide, even if it failed miserably, it couldn't get any worse that the current status.

[doughesson]

I don't see how a 911 dispatch center can't have all the dispatchers talking to each other,even if only to check the time or borrow a new crayon.
Seems kinda wrong to me.
McCracken County from what I've seen has city PD,county SOs and the city and county FDs dispatched all from the same room.
You make your call,the info goes to the dispatcher and the call goes out to the appropriate folks.
One thing that really tosses a wrench into things is when you forget your walkie-talkie and call the back door number to advise that you are on scene and want to pass a size up to your department.
Even if you tell them where you are the answer is usually"Huh?".You might not get the same call taker that passed on the initial tap out to begin with but it works after a fashion if everyone stays calm.

[CTFDNJ]

BHFF22:

Do the cops still go to your calls instead of you? If you ask me thats wrong. The Fd should respond to fire calls.

[CaptainGonzo]

BHFF22:

Do the cops still go to your calls instead of you? If you ask me thats wrong. The Fd should respond to fire calls.

Actually, you want to have PD respond with you... to do something called "traffic control"... They keep the MARS out of the way so we can actually work at a safe scene without fear of getting run over.

[vapor00]

We've had a combined police/fire dispatch center for the past decade and there are always numerous problems. The one discussed in this thread has occurred at times, luckily without any serious consequences.

It's nice for Dept's if the Chiefs can work it out and get things moving along. Unfortunately, in our situation, the alarm office is at the Police station, payed out of the Cops budget, and supervised by the Cops. Every time push comes to shove the Cops pretty much do what they want. :eek:

An excellent argument AGAINST combined alarm offices. IMHO, if they're combined (police + fire and/or multi-jurisdictional) they should be seperate entities. Otherwise, each agency should have their own.

[ZootTX]

I guess we are lucky. The SO dispatch center in our county dispatches all the volunteer fire depts. They mostly have good dispatchers and we get dispatched in a timely manner to all FD related calls as far as I know. We also have a good working relationship with the individual deputies, as least as far as I have witnessed. One of the dispatchers told our chief he likes dispatching our dept because we keep the unecessary radio chatter to a minimum (we'll go to an unused fireground channel if we need to, or use cell phones when service is available). Some of the departments in our county will call each other and ask them to public service them. Well if they have YOUR number, why don't you have THEIR number.

[Frosty42]

I would be happy with a 60 second turn around on call processing. We operate under EMD (emergency medical dispatching) protocol and we average 3 minutes from the time the call was received at dispatch before we are tapped out. Worse yet, PD units are on scene giving a size up before we are tapped out!

We have provided entire stacks of documented calls were call times were not acceptable. Our chief has taken the issue all the way up the flagpole with no real improvements yet to take affect. Is a 5 minute call processing time for a full code acceptable before units are dispatched? Communication centers do have APCO standards to comply with. The problem lies with:
A. Staffing
B. Training
C. Quality Assurance

Another example of how big the problem is with our dispatch center....our operations channels are not monitored by dispatch. Why? Cost.

The team is only as good as it's weakest link. Right now, the that link is our dispatch center. I do not lay blame with the individual dispatchers, blame goes to it's management and it's policies.

[FHandz15]

We are dispatched by our PD which has NEVER run smoothly.

We listen to the mutual aid frequency and usually go en route to calls and notify dispatch before they even call us.

It's been so bad lately that enough Capt.s have complaind to the Chief that he ordered all 9 Capt.s to sit in dispatch for 4 hours on a shift to better understand their situation in dispatch.

One dispatcher walked in and saw a Capt. sitting there and said "why is he here? I'm not talking to him all day"...nice.

It costs too much money to switch to one of the local fire dispatches we've been told.

Info: We run 3,000 calls a year from 3 houses, 2 ALS ambos.

[DrParasite]

It's been so bad lately that enough Capt.s have complaind to the Chief that he ordered all 9 Capt.s to sit in dispatch for 4 hours on a shift to better understand their situation in dispatch.I love it when people say this!!!! "The dispatchers are busy with everything else" or "They have to deal with the cops, 911, and EMS, they can't do everything" or "If you knew saw what they had to go through, you would understand". My response? BULLSH!T!!! they are dispatchers, their job is to dispatch. If you can't handle it, find another job.

I have done dispatching. Not on the level of local PD, just EMS, but I do understand what happens. I know there are times when all hell breaks loose. but that's not all the time. Additionally, if they are understaffed, then it is up to whomever manages the dispatchers to put additional staff on. if they are untrained, then they need to be trained better. if they can't handle the job, then they should be fired and replaced with a person who can dispatch. Everyone has bad days, everyone makes mistakes, but when your constantly having problems, something needs to be done.
We have provided entire stacks of documented calls were call times were not acceptable. Our chief has taken the issue all the way up the flagpole with no real improvements yet to take affect. Is a 5 minute call processing time for a full code acceptable before units are dispatched? Communication centers do have APCO standards to comply with. Ever spoken to the mayor about this? or went to a council meeting, and told them "if one of your townpeople's heart stops, and time is of the essence, why does it take 5 minutes just to tell the ambulance that there is a full arrest? then it's another 5 minutes for the ambulance to arrive (national standard is 5-10 minutes for the rig to be on scene AFTER dispatch). every minute wasted mean a 10% smaller chance for survival. why waste those 5 minutes, and decrease the odds of survival by 50%?" I don't always like airing problems like this in public, but would you rather have some hurt feelings and get change pushed through, or not do anything and have someone die?

[SPFDRum]

Just another example of how MD is years ahead of th rest of the US in providing emergency services.

Oh yea, and you have spent so much time in the twin city metro area, or Minnesota for that matter, to make such a broad statement. Someday I would love to be on that high horse of yours just for a quick view....

[hwoods]

The view from up on that high horse ain't bad. Remember, if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes. :D

I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything about everyone else's dispatch systems. What I do know is that Maryland was the First state to mandate that each County have it's own Countywide Dispatch Center, That EVERYONE use 911, That EVERYONE have a Street Address, That EVERYONE be dispatched by their County's Center, And that Mayland has fewer problems related to Dispatch of Emergency Calls than any other State in the union. Are we perfect? No. Are we light years ahead of a lot of other states? Yes. For instance, Response times: My VFD is required to be on the street in 1 minute, which we do. Our "Holding" time, the time that it takes a call to be received and processed is about 80 seconds, down from 3 minutes some years back. We mandate, and pay for, every Dispatch Center to have CAD, ANLI, and anything else that helps take human error out of the process. Police and Fire functions are separated, and almost every Center is operated by a "Stand Alone" Communications Agency which is NOT a part of the Police or Fire Departments. Last, We DO NOT allow Cops to go to Fires, It's too dangerous for them, so we only ask them to come when we need something. :D

[Dalmatian190]

We DO NOT allow Cops to go to Fires, It's too dangerous for them, so we only ask them to come when we need something.

LOL...kind of like a modern day ladie's auxiliary to bring out the coffee and donuts :D

(Dal exits stage right...quickly)

[Dalmatian190]

On a more serious note...

Thankfully this isn't a major issue in my area.

Since 1975(?) we've operated out of a regional dispatch center. Until about 5 years ago, they were in adjacent rooms with an open window between them at our local state police barracks -- indeed, back then with only one dispatcher on duty for fire, the State Police dispatcher would cover if the "call of nature" struck. On very, very rare occassions you'd get a State Police Sergeant (usually to the effect of, "Um, roger, standby one...")

Between larger dispatch consoles first for the State Police and later Fire, they had to move to seperate floors in the 60 year old barracks...so the communication isn't quite as organic (messages they used to just shout over now have to be "transferred"), but it's not that bad. Fire side has 2-3 dispatchers on 24x7 (covers about 16 towns & 100,000 residents).

Prior to this dispatch center, it's predecessor was located at the County Jail. The Jailer on duty ran the radio console during the week; each department dispatched by them was responsible for providing a rotation of volunteer operators for the weekends. From what I've been told, back then answering radio traffic was at the whim of whatever else was happening -- if the Jailer was out yelling at a prisoner to quiet down, no one was listening to the radio.

=======
2 other things about CT...

1) Although we still have a lot of unconsolidated dispatch centers (individual towns), the state law regarding E-911 funding and the share of revenue from the 911 surcharge on phone bills is weighted so that centers convering over 70,000 residents receive a significantly larger per-person share of the money.

Since there are only 8 towns/cities that are size...the legislation financially encourages everyone else to regionalize.

2) The state requirements for EMD (Emergency Medical Dispatching) for PSAPs is what finally forced our dispatch center to a minimum of 2 dispatchers 24x7, and often 3 on 1st & 2nd shift (before they had a minimum of 1, although usually 2 on days & evenings).

EMD requires them to stay on the line with the caller until the arrival of the first responders / ambulance if the caller wants them to stay on the line. Usually that's to provide care instructions, but it could end up being verbal hand holding.

How the small, one horse town PSAPs with only a single dispatcher give medical directions to a caller *AND* dispatch the call, and listen for the cop on a traffic stop, and listen to the FD fighting a fire across town...you see my point I hope :)

[BHFF22]

BHFF22:

Do the cops still go to your calls instead of you? If you ask me thats wrong. The Fd should respond to fire calls.

yes on occasion, in fact recently some kids set fire to the tennis court nets at a local park, P.D. was dispatched and we where not, The police officer attemted to put it out with his extinguisher, when he used up his extinguisher there was still fire so he called to HQ for a extinguisher shuttle run. also at a recent CO call one of the police officers told one of our members that on 7 out of 10 CO call the dispatcher tells the resident to change the battery in there detector then hangs up.

[Frosty42]

Ever spoken to the mayor about this? or went to a council meeting, and told them "if one of your townpeople's heart stops, and time is of the essence, why does it take 5 minutes just to tell the ambulance that there is a full arrest? then it's another 5 minutes for the ambulance to arrive (national standard is 5-10 minutes for the rig to be on scene AFTER dispatch). every minute wasted mean a 10% smaller chance for survival. why waste those 5 minutes, and decrease the odds of survival by 50%?" I don't always like airing problems like this in public, but would you rather have some hurt feelings and get change pushed through, or not do anything and have someone die?

The chiefs from our county presented this issue to the board (we have no mayor) and also to the county officials in charge of our communications center. The message fell upon deaf ears. The "officials" also actually stated that they found no reason to be concerned. Another department in the same county also encountered the very same problem with delays and a patient did directly suffer because of it. The media had a field day with it. Again, no change was made. To lay this out in prospective, our county is made up of:
3 Paid FD's
15 Volunteer FD's
5 Law Enforcement Agencies
1 Private ALS & BLS Transport Company

The communications center has 4+1 (4 dispatchers and 1 supervisor) per shift. County wide population is approx. 450,000. My department averages a 4.7 minute response time (1-Engine Co. on scene with three FF's) 87% of the time. So, our response time PLUS the call processing time of 5 minutes.....it is now 10 minutes (87% of the time) that medical treatment was not rendered. But...the county is not alarmed. :(

Now as far as the Police responding with us, I am for it. However, since they beat us to most of our calls, the county saw fit to remove all medical gear including the AED's from the patrol cars. To be fair, I looked into this thinking that it was a result of a training or quality control issue. No, not it at all. The reason? Liability insurance cost!

[Engine2medic2]

Having dispatch centers split up by what agencies they dispatch for isn't a good idea. I dispatch for the county - we have 1 dispatch center that takes care of every fire, EMS, and LE agency in the county. We don't fall under the control of the sheriff, our director answers directly to the county commission. It works a lot easier this way...one agency dosn't have more power over what we do than another. And it's a lot easier to coordinate between fire and law enforcement since you're sitting right by the person who is dispatching for one or the other.

[Co11FireGal]

We have a similar problem. Many departments in the county also have area in the next county that is their first due. Calls from this county go to our dispatch, calls from the next go to thier dispatch. The process of relaying those calls is often delayed by 5-10 minutes. There are other issues there, and there's a little more to it than that, but that is the general overview. As far as I know, this has not caused any serious injuries or deaths yet, and so far no lawsuits, but it most definitely has caused tons of needless property damage. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt...or worse...

[hwoods]

We DO NOT allow Cops to go to Fires, It's too dangerous for them, so we only ask them to come when we need something.

LOL...kind of like a modern day ladie's auxiliary to bring out the coffee and donuts :D

(Dal exits stage right...quickly)

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT let the Cops be in charge of Donuts... :D :D :D

[Frosty42]

Having dispatch centers split up by what agencies they dispatch for isn't a good idea. I dispatch for the county - we have 1 dispatch center that takes care of every fire, EMS, and LE agency in the county. We don't fall under the control of the sheriff, our director answers directly to the county commission. It works a lot easier this way...one agency dosn't have more power over what we do than another. And it's a lot easier to coordinate between fire and law enforcement since you're sitting right by the person who is dispatching for one or the other.

I agree with this except for the part of county control. I would rather see all public service agencies affected have shared control. I would also like to see that Task Orientated Dispatching Protocols be put into place. Any small improvement at this point would benefit all. I know the individual dispatchers would also like to see some change, but they have no control at this point. In fact, some of them have been instructed that if current SOP is deviated in any way, they would loose their job.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Oh yea, and you have spent so much time in the twin city metro area, or Minnesota for that matter, to make such a broad statement. Someday I would love to be on that high horse of yours just for a quick view....

I looked at that post I made about 6 months ago several times. I am sorry but I missed the part where I insulted MN. Can you point it out to me, Skippy?

For the record, I am from NJ, not MD. Also, you have no idea where I have been in my life, do you? Suffice it to say that I have been enough places to say authoritatively that, in general, MD is light years ahead of the rest of the country in the way they administer and operate their fire service. They are light years away from NJ, too.

In particular, I was responding to Harve's post in which he outlined what the State of MD has done to avoid having the problem that prompted this thread (which, isn't it ironic, happened in NJ). I know enough about the MN fire service to know that you don't operate the way MD does in this area.

BTW, when you go to a football game, do you think that all the other people are looking and laughing at YOU?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT let the Cops be in charge of Donuts... :D :D :D

I stick up for MD and this is the thanks I get?

[TruckSkipper]

For the record, I am from NJ, not MD. Also, you have no idea where I have been in my life, do you? Suffice it to say that I have been enough places to say authoritatively that, in general, MD is light years ahead of the rest of the country in the way they administer and operate their fire service. They are light years away from NJ, too.

If the fire service was Thanksgiving dinner, Maryland would be carving the turkey and sitting at the head of the big table in the dining room. New Jersey would be in the den sitting at the card table with the rest of the children.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

If the fire service was Thanksgiving dinner, Maryland would be carving the turkey and sitting at the head of the big table in the dining room. New Jersey would be in the den sitting at the card table with the rest of the children.

Yes. Yes, they would.

[hwoods]

Thank You, Thank You, Tha........ You get the idea, AND, as we carve, you get first choice. And a donut for dessert. :D :D :D :D :D

[CALFFBOU]

Just briefly scanning over these threads. When you cant get a publc safety problem like these resolved....Notify the media.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Thank You, Thank You, Tha........ You get the idea, AND, as we carve, you get first choice. And a donut for dessert. :D :D :D :D :D

Boston Creme?

(Cheffie will not be happy we are eating donuts for dessert).

[MrJim911]

A couple things from a Dispatchers point of view.

First off, thank you everyone for not turning this into a bash fest on Dispatchers. It's good to see everyone realizes problems lay in budgets, training and admin. (Although bad apples do make it through once in a while)

Anyway, I'm familiar with most EMD companies and none of them require you to stay on the phone with every caller until the first unit gets on scene. I rarely do that. Unless it's a CPR, childbirth, severe bleeding or unconcious patient call where me remaining on the phone is important, I will disconnect as soon as I finish my post dispatch questions/instructions.

911 centers have no APCO guidelines to "comply" with. If they choose to follow them that is superb, but they are not forced to "obey" any specific rules.

Here is a helpful hint to the agencies having call process times too long. One of my fire departments years ago decided are processing times were too long when it came to EMS calls. So, they asked if we could ONLY ask the Key questions upon answering the call and then dispatch. The change being, we would ask the PRE-dispatch and POST-dispatch questions after toning out the apparatus. This significantly cut down on the processing time. This gave us, dispatchers, all the time in the world to donate to the caller after we hit the tones while not ebign rushed or worried about looking at the clock. This change in handling EMD calls helped us and the repsonders. It is a simple change in procedure that any agency can do.

Another hint, but this one is about 100% harder to get done as it would involve political and admin changes. Get a civilian Director to head your 911 center. I love you field guys, but neither a PO or a FF should be in charge of the Comm center. You both belong out in the field. A civilian Director can run the day to day operations of a 911 center him or herself. And then the Director can work with and answer to a Board consisting of the Fire Chief(s), Police Chief(s) and aldermen (for budget/community concerns) from each town you dispatch for. Separate committees can also be set up for Fire Committee's and Police Committee's. So the Fire Chief doesn't get bored listening to police matters and vice versa. These meetings should be monthly. This prevents any one person, PO or FF, from having ultimate control over the center. It works great for us.

[SPFDRum]

BTW, when you go to a football game, do you think that all the other people are looking and laughing at YOU?

No, but thanks for your concern. Of coarse a borderline personal attack is just what I expect from a know it all blowhard....

[TruckSkipper]

Another hint, but this one is about 100% harder to get done as it would involve political and admin changes. Get a civilian Director to head your 911 center. I love you field guys, but neither a PO or a FF should be in charge of the Comm center. You both belong out in the field. A civilian Director can run the day to day operations of a 911 center him or herself. And then the Director can work with and answer to a Board consisting of the Fire Chief(s), Police Chief(s) and aldermen (for budget/community concerns) from each town you dispatch for. Separate committees can also be set up for Fire Committee's and Police Committee's. So the Fire Chief doesn't get bored listening to police matters and vice versa. These meetings should be monthly. This prevents any one person, PO or FF, from having ultimate control over the center. It works great for us.

I happy to say that we plan is to have a system like this in place in 18 months.

As it sits now our 911 calls go to the county and they dispatch fire and police via phone call to the police desk or the fire desk. Sometimes they mistakenly call the police desk for fire or EMS calls and when that happens nobody goes to the incident. The police are not required to respond to our incidents so they rarely do unless we specifically request them to.

[Frosty42]

Here is a helpful hint to the agencies having call process times too long. One of my fire departments years ago decided are processing times were too long when it came to EMS calls. So, they asked if we could ONLY ask the Key questions upon answering the call and then dispatch. The change being, we would ask the PRE-dispatch and POST-dispatch questions after toning out the apparatus. This significantly cut down on the processing time. This gave us, dispatchers, all the time in the world to donate to the caller after we hit the tones while not ebign rushed or worried about looking at the clock. This change in handling EMD calls helped us and the repsonders. It is a simple change in procedure that any agency can do.

MrJim911,

This is the one simple change we asked our communications center to make. If this could be done, I believe there would be significant improvement. However, when we requested for this change, The management of our communications center balked at us. They stated that this was against EMD protocol and was simply not possible. Again, I do not lay blame at the individual dispatchers...they have it tough enough.

[MrJim911]

MrJim911,

This is the one simple change we asked our communications center to make. If this could be done, I believe there would be significant improvement. However, when we requested for this change, The management of our communications center balked at us. They stated that this was against EMD protocol and was simply not possible. Again, I do not lay blame at the individual dispatchers...they have it tough enough.

I would argue the point with them that it is a change in protocol, not going against protocol. Find out who is the 911 centers medical control, the doctor who signs off on the EMD. Talk with him or her and try to get that person on your side to help explain the obvious benefits, but also to alleviate any concerns the 911 Director might have.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

No, but thanks for your concern. Of coarse a borderline personal attack is just what I expect from a know it all blowhard....

So in other words, the rest of my post was correct.

And if you think that was a personal attack, you have never been personally attacked by me.

[CTFDNJ]

BHFF22: Here in The Township Of Chatham, Cops respond with us to all fire calls. Since we are volunteer like Berkeley Heights, The cops always get there first. Do cops respond with you also?

[BHFF22]

yes P.D. is dispatched with us