If dad's the boss, sons can't work

[tyler101]

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com


MANSFIELD -- State ethics laws may prevent the sons of Mansfield's fire and police chiefs from serving in their fathers' departments.

Police Chief Phil Messer said Monday his son will appeal a ruling by the Ohio Ethics Commission prohibiting the sons from joining the city's safety forces while their dads are in charge. Fire Chief Michael Hartson said he will retire Friday so his son can join that department.

The fire chief's decision allowed his 26-year-old son, Justin, scheduled to go on the city payroll Monday when he starts the six-week firefighting academy, to be sworn in with five other new firefighters.

Philip Messer Jr., 24, the son of Chief Phil Messer, was forced to be a spectator at ceremonies Monday for two other new police officers, pending an appeal. Police academy classes start Aug. 29.

"We were pretty stunned," said the elder Messer, 51.

Messer Jr., a probation officer for Mansfield Municipal Court, said his father was upset when he told him of the commission's decision. "I've never seen my father so hurt, I don't think. When he came in, he looked like he was punched in the stomach," he said.

"It's hard to put into words. I was devastated," he said. "It's definitely a disappointment. They waited until the last minute."

Service-Safety Director Ronald Kreuter said he got a verbal ruling from the Ohio Ethics Commission on Monday at 8:45 a.m. -- hours before the scheduled ceremony -- saying the city should not hire the police or fire chief's sons into their fathers' departments while they are in charge of the departments.

Kreuter said he asked the Ethics Commission to rule after Mansfield Law Director David Remy recommending not hiring them.

Hartson, 49, has been fire chief since April 2002, when he was selected as the third head of that department in 10 months.

"He has 31 years in," Kreuter said. "He said if it came down to this, he would not stand in the way of his son's career with the city."

Hartson said, "It's not what I had planned, but it's for the best."

The chief said his son maintained an interest in being a firefighter through three rounds of civil service testing. The first time he didn't yet have college credits, and the second time the city wasn't hiring. "He's hung around fire stations all his life."

Hartson worked part-time with his father. "I've wanted to do this since I was a little kid," Justin Hartson said.

He wants a career in firefighting "for the rest of my life," he said. "I think it would be a great opportunity to help others."

Messer, a 29-year police officer who has served as chief since July 2002, said he understands a ban on hiring children of Mansfield's service-safety director into emergency departments -- since that official hires and fires.

But hiring decisions in Mansfield are made through civil service testing, he said. The police and fire chiefs "don't have any say in hiring and firing. Even discipline, technically I can't suspend anyone. That's the service-safety director."

Police and fire departments commonly hire generations of the same families, Messer said. More than one generation of Goldsmiths have worked in the police department, and several Wendling brothers (two lieutenants and a sergeant) currently work there, he said.

lmartz@nncogannett.com (419) 521-7229

[CaptainGonzo]

This is an example of another stupid ruling made up by people who have no clue as to what they are ruling on...:rolleyes: :mad:

My soon to be new Chief's son is on the job in my FD, and when the peanut gallery started making comment, he nipped it right in the bud. Three fire Chiefs ago we had the same situation, the Chief's son got hired onto the job.

One of the worst "ass chewings" I ever witnessed was this chief giving a "Big Mac Attack" (Mac was his nickname) to his own kid. I sure was glad that I wasn't on the "receiving end" of that one!


I wonder if the next ruling by the "ethics" commission will be that any son or daughter working for a Chief in the same deaprtment must be terminated or lateral transferred... :mad:

[firefighter105]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
This is an example of another stupid ruling made up by people who have no clue as to what they are ruling on...:rolleyes: :mad:



They are taking it out of families who hold it as a tradition. My family involvement was what got me into this, and while i am still the only truly active one, I hope in the future, if I have kids, he/she will want to join my department and work with their old man.


This policy is ruining a cornerstone of these two professions if you ask me.

btw, well said capt

[SAFD46Truck]

Sh*t! This is the United States of America is it not? You know, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and all that? What exactly is this assinine ruling supposed to accomplish besides keeping dedicated people out of public safety? I hate lawsuits to help gain employment, in this case though I'd support it. Discrimination is discrimination. By the way we have a lot of chiefs down here with "kids" on the job and it's never been a problem as far as I've seen.

[Firedan38]

the ethics commission must only rule on city departments, when i worked in ohio we went to the ethics commission about our chief and his son being on the dept.when the dept. went from vollie to paid, the ethics comm. said there was no conflict because the chief did not hire or fire. must be a case by case basis.

[Res343cue]

That's bull****. Neither of the chiefs has the right to hire or fire, and neither do disciplinary actions, wheres the problem?

Little Johnny might get some favoritism? Hah, doubt it. When Little Johnny becomes a Probie is still a Probie no matter who or what his father does.. These pre-emptions are bogus, and restrict alot of family tradition. I for one, plan on testing out for my grandfather's department during their next testing cycle. I enjoy the department, I enjoy COJ's up there, and they have alot of offer.

I'm glad we don't have any "ethics commission" to tell me I can't join there because of the risk of something happening. Wah, wah, wah. Somebody call these jerks a WHAAAAMBULANCE so that they won't have to whine about something so stupid.

[JackTee09]

If the hiring process is competitive and the top performers are chosen - then there is very little to moan about.

However, on municipal departments where there are three "Smiths" who interview a fourth Smith for a promotion and promote that person without regard to performance, testing, etc. then it is a shame. Period.

Make it competitive and hey - let it roll.

[lvwrench]

Neptotism seems to be the latest political hot talk. Some of the problems(in fact most of the problems) come from who's screw--- who and who gets promoted and who gets the job etc. Police and fire have long had family traditions that in some cases may or may not have been fair. If the person qualifies then I could care less as long as there is no favoritism because of the relationship. If there is a gray line then there will be problems. Then there is the case of hiring and promoting because of race, creed , color, and gender etc. Fill the quota! PC forever? It all becomes a kneejerk reaction.

[SpartanGuy]

My father is an assistant chief, and was a volunteer chief before the position became paid. I'm a captain. My little brother is a junior.

My father was always hardest on me, but he doesn't chew me out like he used to(and it was never private, it was always in front of the entire department it seemed). It kept me from misbehaving. He never really chewed me out for mistakes, unless they were blatantly obvious ones resulting from laziness or ignorance of protocol. As he says 'everyone makes mistakes'. My father also never protected me from genuine ass chewings and criticisms from the other members of the department. He did step in for unwarranted ass chewings and the like, but he did and continues to do that for everyone. In the end, I think it made me a better firefighter in the end.

There was some of the same issues raised about my brother and I. About supposed favoritism, like how I was issued brand new turnout gear after a year of service. However, these complaints came from the normal soruces we all know of: The guys who never come around, don't make training, don't respond to calls, didn't help fundraise, and expected to have brand new everything hanging in their locker collecting dust..


Is there nepotism? Absolutely. Is it the rampant plague that everyone's making it out to be? No.


Here's a good question for people to consider: Son is hired while dad is a lieutenant or something. Dad becomes chief. Does son get hired, despite five or six years of exemplary service?

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo

One of the worst "ass chewings" I ever witnessed was this chief giving a "Big Mac Attack" (Mac was his nickname) to his own kid. I sure was glad that I wasn't on the "receiving end" of that one!


My Dad was a Chief when I was hired. I used to get harsher treatment because of who I was and he expected more from me. I didn't mind. Made me better at what I do! ;)

[tyler101]

Editorial

The Issue
Ohio Ethics Commisions rules sons of Mansfield police and fire chiefs may not serve under their fathers.

Our Opinion
Decision will keep dedicated people of of jobs that require dedicated people.

We understand the Ohio Ethics Commision's desire to keep nepotism out of public service. That's a reasonable expectation of those in the public trust.

But a recent decision that prevents the sons of Mansfield's fire and police chief from serving on the city's safety forces is cause for further review of the state policy.

It was learned Monday that Justin Hartson and Philip Messer Jr. could not be sworn into their new jobs because their fathers head the Mansfield Fire and Police departments, respectively.

We don't think either young man shoud be punished for wanting to follow in their dad's footsteps and enter the realm of public service. In fact, we applaud both men, who are in their mid-20s, for wanting to do so.

Fire Chief Michael Hartson said he will retire Friday so his son can join that department. Police Chief Philip Messer said his son will appeal the decision.

Keeping young men out of police and fire ranks should not happen. The state shold do everthing possible to insure that qualified men and women apply for these positions.

Messer, who has served as chief since July 2002, said he understands a ban on hiring children of Mansfield's service-safety director into emergency department -- since that offical hires and fires.

But hiring decisions in Mansfield are made through civil service testing. The police and fire chiefs "don't have any say in hiring and firing. Even discipline, technically I can't suspend anyone. That's the service-safety director."

For that reason, this policy need reviewed. Having them in the department, but not directly under their father's supervision, should not be an ethical issue.

The Ohio Ethics Commision's goal is ethical conduct and we believe that should never be compromised in our safety forces. But it also must be practical at a time when we want to recruit the best and brightest to become police officers of firefighters.

It also should be noted that several families have worked in the police department here -- towns across the country. Like farming and teaching, sons often follow their fathers into their career path. It's a path that can have great rewards, but also a fair amount of danger.

It requires dedication. The Ohio Ethics Commision should not discourage that dedicated service.

[Steamer]

Well, it seems the Ohio Ethics Commission finally pulled their collectives heads outta their....umm, never mind. At least this time they got it right. The part about the Chief being taken out of the hiring process kinda concerns me though.
from the Aug 11 Mansfield News Journal:
MANSFIELD — The Ohio Ethics Commission ruled today the city can hire the sons of the police and fire chiefs while their fathers are in charge of the departments.

A commission spokesman said the panel based its ruling on new information it received last week from city officials.

“The city has taken steps to remove the chiefs from the hiring process completely,” said Jennifer Hardin, chief advisory attorney for the ethics commission.

Last month, hours before swearing-in ceremonies, the ethics commission issued a verbal ruling that the city shouldn’t hire Philip Messer Jr. and Justin Hartson for the police and fire departments, respectively. Phil Messer is police chief, and Michael Hartson is the fire chief.

For more on this story, see Friday’s print and online editions of the News Journal.
Sons of Mansfield police, fire chiefs cleared to join the forces (http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050811/NEWS01/50811001)

[dchomen]

Congrats, to both sons and their fathers.... i have nothing but respect for Chief Hartson to give up ones position for his son, even though it did not come to that it show the way we firefighters think, giving up one self for another.

As far as that jacka** lawyer , pullins he can just shut up, always like it when someone just can't keep away from the media just to see their name in the paper!

Stay safe and keep low, we all come home. jack

[Emberxx]

I think it's great that they reversed their decision. All my son talks about every day, all day is that when he grows up he's going to be a firefighter like me and like his Grandfather. He loves coming to the station, sitting in the seats and pretending to drive.

Today I was imaging him as an adult working in the same house I work in - it was a perfectly clear image. I have to tell you, it made me feel proud. All I could think about was the tradition started by his grandfather that he could pass on to his children.

What is wrong with that?

[firenresq77]

Glad to see they came to their senses, although I, too, don't care for the Chief being taken out of the hiring process.........

[Firedan38]

Im glad the sons are getting to come on the job just like their Dads, however, my question is.....who called the Ethics Commission in the first place and what was the reasoning behind it, was it a disappointed applicant?...a citizen with a vendetta? or as some of you suggested a lawyer just trying to get his name in the paper?. again im glad common sense prevailed in this case!!! Congrats to both Dept. i beleive they are going to get 2 fine public servants!

[tyler101]

MANSFIELD -- Fire Chief Michael Hartson said he knew all along his son would be allowed to join his department.

"I spent some time reviewing the (Ohio Ethics Commission's) past rulings," he said. "I had expected it was not a problem."

The ethics commission ruled Thursday the city can hire the sons of the police and fire chiefs while their fathers are in charge of the departments after the city demonstrated the two chiefs are not involved in the hiring and have been removed from making decisions that affect their sons.

"The city has taken steps to remove the chiefs from the hiring process," said Jennifer Hardin, chief advisory attorney for the ethics commission.

City officials provided the ethics commission with new information last week after it ruled in July the city shouldn't hire Philip Messer Jr. and Justin Hartson for the police and fire departments, respectively. Phil Messer is police chief.

News of Thursday's reversal spread quickly.

"Isn't it exciting?" Mayor Lydia Reid said. "We're just tickled to death."

Like Hartson, Service-Safety Director Ron Kreuter was confident about a favorable ruling.

"When we sent down the first packet, we didn't have everything then that was involved in this process," he said.

Chief Messer wasn't quite so positive. He called the decision "the most significant issue that I've waited for in my entire career."

Messer was prepared to retire if the ruling had gone the other way.

"I love my job and serving the city," he said. "(But) in law enforcement, we stand for the right thing. I wouldn't want to do anything that would violate any law."

Messer said he appreciated support from the community.

"It was really almost humbling that a lot of people were concerned about the outcome," he said.

Messer Jr. works as a probation officer in drug court. He said he would have taken his name off the hiring list to keep his father from stepping down. Messer Jr. went on vacation to get away.

It didn't work.

"I just got back from Cancun, and you can guess what was on my mind," he said Thursday.

Chief Hartson had submitted his retirement letter to Kreuter. Like Messer, he didn't want to stand in the way of his son's career. Hartson held off retiring until the ethics commission made a ruling.

"There's a few things I want to do as far as being chief," he said. "It's a good feeling to know when I retire, I'm not doing it under any sort of duress."

Justin Hartson is on the city payroll, attending the state firefighting academy.

Mount Vernon attorney Scott Pullins, who represents the Ohio Taxpayers Association, said last month his group was considering filing a lawsuit to stop the city from hiring Messer's and Hartson's sons.

"We kind of held off to see what the ethics commission would say," he said Thursday. "Now that they're saying that it's OK, we're going to have to take a look at it, see if it's correct and go from there."