FDNY Video

[Heretic]

If this has been posted before, sorry in advance!

Video Link (http://wcbs.dayport.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=9794&tf=video_player.tpl)

-H

[SpartanGuy]

Excellent video. Nothing short of what's expected from the FDNY. And a knowledge news guy, too. I was surprised. He seemed to know their operations pretty well.

[Spectre08]

man, that was cool. or hot. whatever.

I love watching videos like that, but I get so depressed seeing all the firefighters running around. I wanna be one of them:mad:

[Acklan]

oooOOooo.. I'm goin' in early today. I like a good rip snortin' fire.

[E229Lt]

Very interesting.

Most FDNY members who saw this video were quite critical of the operation.

No, I won't elaborate.:rolleyes:

[SamsonFCDES]

It seemed to me that it took a long time to get the aerials erected...

Maybe they need some viagra!

:o :D :eek:

So, what was the final report? Anybody traped? Any civi injuries? And FF injuries?

If everybody makes it home in one piece then thats what matters the most.

[Fawlty]

It certainly was an interesting video to watch..

I am not going to comment on operations good or bad, but it did seem by the 'visible' point of entry that FDNY crews probably encountered a fair amount of required travel distance and undoubtedly plenty of locked doors before they got to the area of heaviest involvment.. and judging by the amount of smoke coming from that POE shortly after it was opened, visibility may have been a tad difficult inside.

Again great video, would like to read different points of view about how others may have performed ops on that same building, but am not looking for any Monday morning quarterbacking on the crews in that video :rolleyes: .

Cheers

[EngCo29]

This was interesting, very interesting. The reporter certainly knew what was going on. Looks like they have pretty good response times.

[adamkhalil]

Not to be critical of the FDNY, being a vollie who sees a fire once every 3 years myself, but what was up with that aerial? Did the operator put it through the flames in the window or was that just the viewing angle? Also, what were they doing with that bucket ladder? Was it there JIC people were trapped?

[ladderwell]

Maybe we fight fires a little different out here on the west coast, but the thing that comes to my mind is this: Why not use a 2 1/2 smooth bore from the ground to at least get some steam conversion and get a little bit of knockdown before the whole building goes up. Obviously one must be careful not to push the fire further into the building, but get some water on the fire!!!!! When the interior crews get inside, let them take care of business. Somebody please educate me if I'm being to harsh. And I agree, seemed to take a while to get the sticks in the air.

[JackTee09]

The FDNY has a system that works for the FDNY. Anyone not involved in that system will never have a deep understanding of how or why they do things the way they do.

It works for them. It probably wouldn't work in your city. Every city I have ever visited does things a little differently-even though we think that it is all standard.

I know the video and have personally witnessed the FDNY in action more times than I can remember. Once I learned how and why they operate it made perfect sense to me.

This is not to be critical of anyone - but watching the FDNY and trying to apply how someone else fights fires to the brothers from the FDNY is simply an excercise in futility.

If you have a question about how they operate there are a lot of brothers there that are patient in explaining why they do what they do. In the end if any of us saw any videotape from any department we all could find something to question - the reason is that firefighting is not an "absolute" profession. One way does not work everytime nor in every way.

Cheers!

:)

[gunnyv]

Most FDNY members who saw this video were quite critical of the operation. E229Lt

Jeez, they had a 2 1/2 line in operation on the third floor of a bulding, with a water supply established, 2 sticks up and a roofman working on the roof less than 5 minutes after arrival (according to the time on the video) and you guys are not impressed? We got BCs who couldn't even THINK of how to do all that in that amount of time! Good on you guys for setting a high standard of performance.

[SCOOBY14B]

It seemed to me that the second in aerial (rear mount) got blocked at first from making good access to the front of the fire building (what we saw as front). Then it also appeared that the engineer had some difficulty in deploying his aerial. This made it difficult for the roofman to get there.

One thing though...the engine crew did an awesome job. It appeared that they had some pretty pi** poor conditions from point of entry. Also the building layout was probably pretty difficult as well. They got in there pretty quick and put a good stop on the fire...GOOD JOB. Looked like it would have been pretty warm.

[bfd190]

weve allways been taught to never ever put water on a fire like that from the outside . you will burn your guys inside and or push the thing towards uninvolved areas . they often do venting with the tips of the truck co.s . which we never do . so it shows how things are different in areas. all in all , the overall time to knock it down was pretty damn good . i think that most places would be more than happy with that knockdown time . here we were afforded the luxury of seeing things from the initial arrival of co.s. and what may have seemed longer than it probably was because we were sitting in chairs watching . rural booksmart townies will pick that scene apart though without ever having pulled up to that scenario. and if they did it would be the ol "career fire" ,, this might be the biggest thing that ticks me right off about the board somtimes ,, damn knowitalls that knowlittle , but some article they read. sorry had to vent .

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by bfd190
this might be the biggest thing that ticks me right off about the board somtimes ,, damn knowitalls that knowlittle , but some article they read. sorry had to vent .

I would like to hear what the FDNY critics had to say...

But in any case..

LOL, welcome to the internet!

:D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/Monkeyhammer/trailer.jpg


No disrespect ment toward our special athelets.


Edit: To redirect the non politicaly correct humor away from our challenged members (IE Mini Me) onto our trailer trash members.

Have a nice day!:p

[E229Lt]

what was up with that aerial

If you look closely you will see the aerial is trying to get an angle around overhead wires. A long angle a short one and then underneath. none worked out, welcome to Gotham. The rearmount was repositioned about one minute into the tape and got the corner of the building so the windows of two sides of the building were accessable.

I have to agree with you 229E/Lt. It appears that too much time took place from the time at apparatus arrived to when you saw the lines going inside.

I never said that. I would say the engines did an outstanding job here. Note the second due nozzleman drops his folds when he sees the first length is under the door and frees it up. This was the best move on the tape.

[beastie35]

i'll i know is that they had a fire on the 3rd floor of a 3 story building, and pretty much knocked it down in under 30 minutes. in my town, at 30 minutes your lucky if there is a line in the door yet (just joking!).

JOB WELL DONE!

[Smoke20286]

Looked pretty good to me. Aggressive interior attack, no one throwing water from the outside, all the fire was driven out the windows followed by white smoke and steam. Thats the result we are all looking for isn't it?

Too much second guessing going on here, everyone needs to concentrate more on critiquing their own fires and less on worrying about others

[SamsonFCDES]

Damn it!!! Stop being so civil!!!

1 Wrong SCBA. They should have had Drager
2 Wrong Helmet. They should have had Pheonix 1500
3 Wrong Brand of Truck. They should have had Pierce.
4 They have no boster reels on their trucks, wrong wrong wrong.
5 They didnt have fire shelters on.
6 There is one guy, he has a organge scochlite sticker on his helmet, there should be only lime green
7 They used smoothborecombyfognozzle when they should have used a fogcombysmoothborenozzle.
8 Dont run with sharp objects!
9 I can tell form looking at one of the antenas from the radios that they are not P95 interdigi compatable.
10 They ignored presidential DHS directive 472 WMD mass terrorist escape cluase proticals on their extinqueshment SOP

BAD BAD BAD FDNY!!! BAD!!!

[SpartanGuy]

lol

Dräger? *throws up*

[SteveDude]

Wow, the difference between two Cities... I Have seen many similar fires in many similar Buildings and the difference in Firefighting is incredible.

In London that would have been a Two Pump response, immediately followed by an additional Two Pumps of because of the inevitable multiple 999 (911) calls. 16-20 personnel depending on how many they were riding.

A Chief would have been paged on the Multi calls but may not have attended. until it was 'made up'... I usually go if they have recevied more than 4 calls as it is likely to be a 'Make up' and I'd go on anyway.

Upon the arrival of the first machines, the IC would have 'Made Pumps Four' conforming he needed the 4 being sent and probably at that time of Morning added a 'Persons Reported' because people may have been trapped...(this just roles out an ambulance to a fire with persons suspected involved...you see this a lot on the WOF reports even when no one is in there, a good precaution) On the confirmed 4 pump call the Chief would now attend and a higher chief paged to let him know the ADO (Batt Chief) has gone on. A Fire Command unit and Fire Investigation would also roll now.

The first arriving IC would stay downstairs, the Officer on the other Pump would take a 2 man SCBA Crew with a High Pressure Hosereel (booster) with others feeding it in up to the fire floor. They would start an attack on the fire from the tank supply while the others and subsequent Pumps laid out a inch and three quarter jet to go in with another 2 man team. Other SCBA wearers would search for casualties.

Water would have been on the fire within a minute of arrival, a larger jet would have followed within a couple of minutes.... we call this initial High Pressure line a 'quick Water' attack. Very Popular in the UK, Europe and Down Under.

At an absolute push, this may have gone to a 6 Pump Fire, (about 30 Personnel) again look at WOF we only go to 6 Pumps usually on a very large domestic or commercial...most (80%) domestics that stay within a room don't even go beyond the first 2 Pumps, if they are well alight like in the video, they will go to 4 Pumps, you will see on WOF we have a few of these per day on average, although that one would be a 'higher end' 4 Pump Fire with 100% of the whole apartment alight.

Interestingly, look at the amount of Engines... probably about 4 on a second alarm?? I can't remember for sure... (Any FDNY wanna confirm) but that is the same as us... We don't have Truckies, so we wouldn't have had those 2 Aerials there, or how ever many came on the 2nd alarm. a Fire Rescue Unit (Rescue Co) would have come on the 8 Pump Make up (8 Pumps if the whole top floor was alight) if it ever got that big.

I Have spent time with FDNY and seen them operate, and have a respect for them that comes from a UK perspective where many other Brigades in the UK 'raise and eyebrow' at how we operate. Although we all operate much more similarly there are a few LFBism's that no one else gets. However, As an experienced Inner city Firefighter, I would not know what to do with all of those Guys on that job.... The Engine Guys would be flat out...the poor old Truckies would be giving me daggers as they stood outside and watched!!!!:p

Like I said, so similar but soooo different.

But, I will say, they got that Two and a Half flowing pretty quickly considering the way they lay out from 'Dry'... As usual, practice makes perfect.

[SamsonFCDES]

You make an interesting point Steve.

The use of Booster Reels (especialy in the High pressure example like you have) can potentialy get watter on the fire faster.

[SteveDude]

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
You make an interesting point Steve.

The use of Booster Reels (especialy in the High pressure example like you have) can potentialy get watter on the fire faster.

Yeah,
I don't wanna make no big deal here... what has worked well for us for years may not suit everyone, especially with some of your wooden construction, but that Building is very typical of a UK 'Shop and Dwellings' and would definatlely have had a Hosereel pulled while the Hydrant was being set in and the layflat hose layed out.

But NO WAY am I advocating this as a Hosereel only job. That probably would have been one inch and three quarter jet and two HP Hosereels...

And as I've stated before, every time I tell a US Firefighter about our 'boosters' they are surprised that we use them so much...then when they vist and have a go...they then understand why we use them... they are incredibly powerful for what they are.

[ves9102]

Boy I sure do miss watching any New York Dept. in action! This was one hell of a knock down fast especially for the line 2 1/2 that had to be stretched. I don't know about you, but within 5 minutes with the amount of fire showing on arrival and they had a line in operation, venting going on the roof and two aerials up. Down here in the hurricane state most would have lost it and they would have another parking lot. I thought it was a job well done. Great aggressive fire attack!

[E229Lt]

what has worked well for us for years may not suit everyone

Come to Bracknell in September, I'll be pissin' them all off critiquing their ops.

[firenresq77]

Samson, take the picture down........ :mad: :( :mad:

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by ves9102
Boy I sure do miss watching any New York Dept. in action! This was one hell of a knock down fast especially for the line 2 1/2 that had to be stretched. I don't know about you, but within 5 minutes with the amount of fire showing on arrival and they had a line in operation, venting going on the roof and two aerials up. Down here in the hurricane state most would have lost it and they would have another parking lot. I thought it was a job well done. Great aggressive fire attack!

Not sure what "huricane state" you refer too, but if its mine I take offense to your commet.

I thought they did a decent job. It seemed to take a bit of time to get the aerials up, but we cant see the wires from the video. And I know FDNY doesnt use preconnected attack lines, but maybe it would have speeded things up a bit. Hard to say not knowing the layout of the building or the conditions on the lower floors.

The only thing I really had a problem with was the position of the engine on the far left. The had an active traffic lane between the rig and the fire which isnt a real safe idea. I would have liked to see them pull across that lane and shut down the street.:cool:

[Halligan84]

Samson.. the disclaimer is too little too late. Not appropriate here, take the picture off please.

[MemphisE34a]

Sampson, I thought the picture was funny. I say leave it.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

That picture SUCKS

[PFire23]

Samson,

You can put your little disclaimer under the picture in your post, but, the caption on the picture (the picture is not the issue) is disrespectful, offensive and an insult to all mentally challenged individuals. Did it ever occur to you that there may be some members here who have handicapped family members? Did it ever occur to you that they may view this thread ....... how the hell do you think that picture will make them feel. Geeeezus, I'm all for fun, jokes and funny pictures BUT when it belittles handicapped individuals or those less fortunate it is NOT funny. Personally I find it disgusting.

[dchomen]

1- Straight bore nozzles do not push fire but never through an exterior opening if personnel are inside. Quick knock down from the ground with a straight bore will cool the interior making the interior attack more tenable. (transitional attack)

2- The picture is not funny, it is mean and unbecoming of a firefighter Sampson.

3- I would never assume that i know what the incident commander had in mind on this or any fire. I can only learn to be a better ic from studying what my peers have learned in their careers and applying those tactic that meet the needs of the incident. Always safety for my guys first, then property conservation.

4- I would never presume to ever know more than FDNY, i think they have earned the right to be the teacher and we the students.

5- Thank you and Godspeed FDNY, remembering your kindness to UT Task Force 1 at ground zero.

Stay Safe and Keep Low and we all come home. jack

[erics99]

Originally posted by dchomen
1- Straight bore nozzles do not push fire but never through an exterior opening if personnel are inside. Quick knock down from the ground with a straight bore will cool the interior making the interior attack more tenable. (transitional attack)

2- The picture is not funny, it is mean and unbecoming of a firefighter Sampson.

3- I would never assume that i know what the incident commander had in mind on this or any fire. I can only learn to be a better ic from studying what my peers have learned in their careers and applying those tactic that meet the needs of the incident. Always safety for my guys first, then property conservation.

4- I would never presume to ever know more than FDNY, i think they have earned the right to be the teacher and we the students.

5- Thank you and Godspeed FDNY, remembering your kindness to UT Task Force 1 at ground zero.

Stay Safe and Keep Low and we all come home. jack

Why waste the time hitting it from outside? That would mean they would have to stretch another line, charge it, and operate it from the outside. That would delay the interior line getting in service. Don't forget the importance of the interior line and protecting the search crew. It was apparent from the short video clip that the engine had no real problems knocking down the fire (great job, btw). Hitting it from the outside would be a poor tactic considering they were in offensive mode. It would drive steam and heat back inside the building.

[JackTee09]

Somewhere there is an "expert" saying - "In order for things to go perfectly, what they should have done was let the building burn to the ground. Much, much safer that way."

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

I thought the video was great and appreciate what the Lt, is saying that there were some critics :D

There will ALWAYS be critics of our operations and none more critical than our own brothers. I personally believe that 'arm chair quarterbacks' are what makes this forum interesting. I like to see videos like this and explore different options and listen to different opinions on the forum. Each time I view it I come up with a ....'what if they'd have done this'! Thing is - they were there doing it and at the end of the day it was ok. It coulda been better .... it coulda been worse .... and I know I've been on a hundred or more fires like that where we didn't do so great on every occasion :D

In terms of dchomen's post .... I thought he was generally right on the spot. You can like or dislike the exterior stream. I never saw it in New York in two years there whilst in offensive mode but have seen it in Chicago exactly as Jack described .... via a roof mounted Stang. Straight streams don't push fire generally but there is a fair amount of steam that ends up going in all directions. No, you really DON'T wanna direct that inside when occupants or crews might be there. But there is a growing trend here in the UK to do this lately, especially using a CAFS stream. A quick hit from the street to knock it down just prior to entry (takes ALL the fun away from the first in nozzle guy - yeah he did a great job).

I would take a look at the windows in that video where there might have been some viable occupants on arrival. The post flashover fire area might have doubled in the time taken to get water on the fire. A quick hit from the street MAY have bought some time for occupants remaining in adjacent rooms. This is not a critique .... its a suggestion for similar fires.

Steve Dude is correct in his appraisals of how London firefighters might have fought this. I tend to think that when I was serving, we may have laddered or 'cherry picked' some of those those windows immediately on arrival. This would most certainly have occurred if the fire was one floor higher.

All credit to those who were there ;)

[Bones42]

Wow! The day that fires and fire attacks can't be discussed on the forums anymore is the day the forums need to be shut down.

Can't question FDNY tactics? B.S. Question them all you want, but be prepared, they can actually back why they do what they do (and it's not based on reading an article). Question them and anyone else, because that might help people learn something. No one is the expert at everything so take any chance you can to ask "Why'd you do this?" and see if there is something to learn from it.

[dchomen]

I work ft for Unified Fire Authority, ( www.saltlakefiredistrict.org ) we are agressive interior attack fire deparment in terms of tactics.

As a dc for my home town fire department, (read head bottle washer/training officer) we have limited experience and with our low structure fire call volume ( 3 working house fires in 6 years) our SOP is straight bore knock down then interior once we have 2 in 2 out in place. This is just a safety margin for our firefighters who have seen 1 fire in their careers.

Search and rescue changes everything given the life safety problem on the fire ground. It's a challenge to say the least. That's why training is so important for those low frequency events! In the UFA our last fire was three days ago, but in EMFD it was last Feburary.

But once again limited experience and the need for a strong mentor on the scene makes this a nessasary tactic in Eagle Mountain.

Stay Safe and Keep Low, everyone comes home! jack

[E40FDNYL35]

Originally posted by Bones42
Wow! The day that fires and fire attacks can't be discussed on the forums anymore is the day the forums need to be shut down.

Can't question FDNY tactics? B.S. Question them all you want, but be prepared, they can actually back why they do what they do (and it's not based on reading an article). Question them and anyone else, because that might help people learn something. No one is the expert at everything so take any chance you can to ask "Why'd you do this?" and see if there is something to learn from it.

Well said Bones.....;)

[SAFD46Truck]

Lose the picture Samson. I have family affected by cerebral palsy. Mental retardation is NOT A JOKE!:mad:

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by firenresq77
Samson, take the picture down........ :mad: :( :mad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/Monkeyhammer/getalife.jpg

Mini Me...you are special.

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by MemphisE34a
Sampson, I thought the picture was funny. I say leave it.

Thank you for your support!!!!

:D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/Monkeyhammer/native_shirt.jpg

OMG! LOL! Couldnt resist that one!!!

[SAFD46Truck]

Samson, you are a Jackass. I am usually a very laid back guy, and my skin is thick enough. This is not funny, it is cruel. Grow up.:rolleyes:

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by SAFD46Truck
Samson, you are a Jackass. I am usually a very laid back guy, and my skin is thick enough. This is not funny, it is cruel. Grow up.:rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/Monkeyhammer/asshat.gif

[SAFD46Truck]

Congratulations on proving that you have absolutely no class. All of your assinine posts have been reported to the WT.

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by SAFD46Truck
Congratulations on proving that you have absolutely no class. All of your assinine posts have been reported to the WT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/Monkeyhammer/hitler1.jpg

[NDeMarse]

Hey guys,

(written after the article) TRYING TO GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK! BELIEVE IT OR NOT WHEN I STARTED WRITING THIS, WE WERE HERE TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM THIS VIDEO!

Just thought I would throw my two cents into the mix to hopefully clear up some operational issues of how we operate. Some of this might seem short or a little harsh, for that I apologize. I worked the night tour and I haven't had my coffee :-)

I wasn't at this fire so I am not exactly sure what went on, but here are my comments to the video. I don't really have much defending of the video and operations since I think they did a fine job.

On a report of a fire like this the FDNY is going to get a response of 3 Engines, 2 Trucks and a B/C. Undoubtedly, Queens dispatch received multiple calls on this job so the response was probably upgraded to our 10-75 response. That would get you: 4 Engines, 3 Trucks (1 is a FAST/RIT truck), 1 Rescue, 1 Squad, 2 B/C's and a D/C. Depending on manpower for the day and the companies responding that is about 20 Engine FFs and 15 Truck FFs (not including the officers). Additionally, another 10 FFs will provide support coming on the Rescue & Squad. That's a lot of guys, I agree. There aren't many departments in the country that can get this many FFs in operation almost instantly on a fire.

Truck Ops:
Upon arrival of the 1st due truck (Tower Ladder) the inside and outside teams split and go to work. The inside team appears to look for the correct entrance to the building so they can make the apartments above. Many times at buildings like this, the entrance will be on a side street and possibly out of view of the front of the building. If you pick the wrong entrance door to stretch a line into, you might be in the wrong building all together.

The inside team will immediately head in and start forcing entry and searching for occupants before the line is even stretched. Even at a fire like this, the inside team will attempt to make entry into the fire apartment and conduct a search. They will be looking for occupants, the fire (which probably isn't going be hard to find), and the quickest route to the fire for the engine company. The can man will attempt to hold the fire back with the 2 1/2 gallon pressurized can. He will strategically place himself (or be placed by the boss) in a hallway (smallest area to defend) and throw short bursts of water into the overhead to control the rollover and spread of fire. When he is out of water or can no longer control the fire, the inside team will back out of the area, close the door and wait for the line. If this was a room or two and a door could be closed to those rooms and the rest of the apartment searched, the can man would close the door and monitor conditions. In this case, the entire apartment looks like it is going pretty good.

While the can man is containing the fire, the boss and Irons will be searching the areas of the apartment that can be reached.

The roof firefighter probably went into the exposure (on the top of the screen) to try to make his way to the roof. This is our preferred method to get to the roof on a Class 3 multiple dwellings. The aerial ladder is our 2nd option, followed by the rear fire escape. This frees the aerial or tower ladder to make rescues or vent windows. I am not sure and I wasn't there, but it looked as if the 1st due roof was delayed in getting into position. I say this because it looks as if he came out a rear window of the exposure and came up the rear fire escape (not normally the route to take). This delayed him in getting to the roof, and I am sure the delay was reported to the IC in the street. Once he did get to the roof, it did not look like an easy roof to vent. Normally, there are skylights, scuttles or bulkheads to vent. I didn't see any of these in the video. This only leaves 1 option. Cut the roof! Since this is a top floor fire we would normally cut the roof in this situation. Unless the fire is under the roof (top floor or cockloft) we do not even think about cutting the roof. Most of our vertical ventilation is done via the skylights, scuttles and bulkhead doors.

The OV got into the bucket and the chauffeur probably raised him first to the roof to drop the saw for the roof firefighter, then lowered him to the adjacent windows for VES. The Roof FF does not normally carry the saw to the roof unless he is arriving at a taxpayer fire or arriving on a tower ladder and using the bucket to get to the roof. His normal compliment of tools is a halligan, 6' hook and Roof Rope bag. It does seem like it takes a long time to get the tower ladder into operation. That is because, IT DOES take a long time to get these tower ladders into operation. The aerials are much faster to set up, and move a lot quicker once they are set up.

In my area, if I am detailed to a tower ladder the first question I ask is, "what aerials come in here?" If you can't take the adjoining building to make it to the roof, it might be quicker to wait for the 2nd due (normally there right away anyway) to set up the aerial ladder so you can head up. There are several buildings in the Bronx and Harlem (only areas that I know) that a tower ladder cannot even reach the roof even if it did move faster. Aerials are the way to go in that case.

The 2nd due truck (aerial ladder) took a position on the camera side of the building. The inside team probably went into the building and searched the adjoining apartments since this is a top floor fire. If it wasn't a top floor fire they would have searched the apartment directly over the fire. The 2nd due roof firefighter headed up to assist the 1st due roof and the 2nd due OV probably assisted the 1st due OV. By splitting our companies in this fashion, many initial tasks can be started or even completed in a short amount of time.

The 2nd due truck looked like it was trying to manage some wires to get to the parapet of the building. You can see the poles, but I couldn't tell if there were wires there.

Engine Ops:
Now to explain some of the engine stuff.

The 1st due control FFs job is to estimate the stretch. For a building like this, if I am the control I am figuring: (start at the fire)
- 1 length for the apartment
- 2 lengths for the hallway (long building)
- 2 lengths for elevation (1 per floor)
- and probably 4 or 5 back to the Engine from the entry point.
- 1 for good luck

Some Control FF things to consider are how far are the stairs from the apartment, how far are the stairs from the front entrance, and how far is the entrance to the engine. You can see now why a preconnect wouldn't work for this type of fire. Believe it or not a 9 or 10 length stretch is a rather common occurrence here. I don't know for a fact, but I think they probably went with an 1 3/4" for this fire. They might have stretched a 2 1/2" but normally the 2 1/2" is used for taxpayers and hi-rises. The mobility of an 1 3/4" line (as shown) allows for a very rapid advance through the twists and turns found in most apartments or houses.

Once the line is in place, the Control FF will break it at the bed and hook to the appropriate discharge (after conferring with the chauffeur) He needs to tell the chauffeur 5 things:
1) Diameter & number of lengths? 10 lengths of 1 3/4"
2) What discharge it is hooked to? (to confirm)
3) What type of nozzle? for interior firefighting it is a solid stream
4) What company are you from? If it's not your own. Many times the 2nd line will come off of the 1st engine stretched by the 3rd & 4th engines :-)
5) What floor are you operating on? 3rd

I think that you will find that when we stretch lines we are concerned with a few other points than just "hurry up and get the line up there". We spend more time than most departments getting a line in to operation. As you see in the video, once we do have the line in operation we are VERY confident of a smooth, rapid and constant advance on the fire in even some of the most severe fire conditions. In the video from the time that I noted first water on the fire, the entire fire apartment (probably about 6-8 rooms) was knocked down in about 1 minute and 30 seconds. If you watch, there is never a halt in progress AFTER the attack starts. The fire goes out window by window until nothing but steam is left. This is the signature of a well placed, thought out hose stretch and advance. From the time that the 1st member steps foot on the concrete in the video until the time all visible fire is knocked down is 7 minutes and 33 seconds. I think that is pretty good!

This is how we stretch. It might be slow, but it works well for us:

The nozzleman will grab 3 folds off of the bed, walk 15 feet and stops. Then the backup man grabs 3 folds and repeats. If the door man is available he will do the same. This has already eaten up about 45 seconds to a minute and we haven't even left the back step yet! However, what it has done for us is bought time in the stretch. It will allow for a smooth and easy stretch to the fire area from the engine, no matter how far away it is.

I will not argue that in 45 seconds, many of the preconnect guys can be bleeding the line and be ready to go. Believe me, I used to do it. I understand your thoughts. What has changed for me (when I got the job here), and what many firefighters looking at the FDNY do not understand is the buildings. In my 1st due area, I can count on 1 hand how many stretches we could do in under 6 lengths (longest a preconnect should be). It just wouldn't work in this city.

Back to the stretch:
Each firefighter now has 3 folds of hose. 3 folds = 1 length. We are now assured that when we get to the fire area we will have AT LEAST 3 lengths of hose to work with. The stretch will start when the Door firefighter steps off of the back step. The 2nd due Engine will assist the 1st due Engine in stretching the 1st line. While being a 2nd due engine is not a glamorous or fun job, helping the 1st due engine it is essential to getting a 10 length stretch completed and water on the fire. Now as we take our time getting the line up there we make sure of a few things:
- All doors the line passes through are chocked
- Line is not underneath any doors (hose clamps)
- Line is flaked to the outside of the stairwell

The nozzleman will take his 3 folds directly to the fire area. He will then flake out his length. The best way that I have found is to grab the nozzle and throw the folds down the hallway. It almost perfectly flakes out the line, and doesn't leave much for the backup man to worry about. He then starts to put on his facepiece. On the floor below (or 50' back if it's a long hallway) the backup man drops his folds and flakes out his line. He traces the line back up to the nozzleman and makes sure that there will be no kinks when the line is charged. He also puts on his facepiece. The 3rd firefighter on the line will drop his folds, flake them out and chase the line up to the nozzle team assuring no kinks will form in the line. The 3rd firefighter will normally NOT don his facepiece if at all possible so he can conserve air in case one of the nozzle team needs to be relieved. You can see that we have checked the first 3 lengths on the fire floor 3 times for kink potential.

AFTER THE LINE IS CHARGED and only AFTER can the control FF leave the street. He then chases kinks from the pump panel all the way up to the operating line to eliminate kinks and assure that the line is not hung up.

The 3rd & 4th due Engines will stretch the 2nd line (as shown in the video). However, if you see anything wrong with the 1st line (like the nozzleman of the 2nd line did) you correct the first lines problem if you can. The 3rd due nozzleman (nozzleman on the 2nd line) pulled the line out from underneath the door on the sidewalk before it was charged. If this line would have been charged and the line was still under the door guys would have gotten hurt! He saw it, and corrected it! VERY HEADS UP MOVE!

I will comment in a few minutes on some of the posts that I have read. This one is long enough and I want to leave it as explaining our operations. I take back in the 1st two paragraphs I said "some of this might seem short". Nothing in this post can be construed as short :-)

Sorry, I get long-winded

I'd love to see some of you guys on the tactics forum. There is a lot of good stuff on this thread!

[CaptOldTimer]

I watched the video several times and I thought that the members did a good job with this incident!

Too bad that there are so many Monday morning quarterbacking being done on this incident. I would expect that most is from folks from small departments that have no knowledge of the operational procedures of the FDNY!

As far as some of the pictures posted in here, I find that most were very offensive!

A tip of the old helmet to the members of the FDNY for another Outstanding job.

Well Done!!

[NDeMarse]

Again, these are just my opinions to some of the comments posted earlier.


SpartanGuy: "And a knowledge news guy, too. I was surprised. He seemed to know their operations pretty well".

The news guy was doing some great narration. He got a few things wrong, but he did know what he was talking about in most respects which is hard to come by.


Spectre08: "love watching videos like that, but I get so depressed seeing all the firefighters running around. I wanna be one of them"

Keep trying, I made it from Illinois!


ladderwell: "Why not use a 2 1/2 smooth bore from the ground to at least get some steam conversion and get a little bit of knockdown before the whole building goes up. Obviously one must be careful not to push the fire further into the building, but get some water on the fire!!!!! When the interior crews get inside, let them take care of business. Somebody please educate me if I'm being to harsh. And I agree, seemed to take a while to get the sticks in the air".

I have seen this used several times when I was in the Chicago suburbs. I never really agreed with the use of it. I know there are several proponents of "quick water" (that's what they called it) and they will swear up and down on it's use. I personally have seen it used where it worked and they looked like heros.

I have also personally seen it used and it has burned the roof off of a building by driving fire into uninvolved areas, burned civilians, burned firefighters and many other things. I don't agree with throwing a stream (solid or not) into a window. It does knock down a lot of fire, but it also gives up otherwise savable victims that might be on the other side of the fire. If the door to the fire room is closed then it won't have as drastic of an effect than if it was open.

You also have to remember that the FDNY is IMMEDIATELY commiting an inside truck crew to searching as well as an Outside Vent FF to search opposite the fire before a line is in place (as it is being stretched). If you drive a stream into a window it will undoubtedly push fire towards their location.


SteveDude:
Great posts and I'm always learning how the UK'ers and Europeans are fighting fires over there. I have no idea how you guys manage things that way, but it works well for you! It amazes me! We don't even have booster lines on our rigs and how we would get it up there with 2 guys is beyond me :-)

It's good to hear from you again Steve, how ya been?



Dave1983: "FDNY doesnt use preconnected attack lines, but maybe it would have speeded things up a bit. Hard to say not knowing the layout of the building or the conditions on the lower floors".

See my post above on this, it's a pretty long stretch for a preconnect. I don't think you guys in Florida would have burned that building down. You would have gotten it just like the members in Queens did


PaulGRIMWOOD
Always good to hear from a fire service great, even if he is from the other side of the pond and has differing tactics and opinions. Something can ALWAYS be taken away from this guy. Whenever you see this user name, listen up members! Check out his site too if you get a chance.


SamsonFCDES
Your photos are not only tasteless but have no business being on a thread where learning is taking place/trying to take place. You have been notified that you are offending people, why would you continue to do so? I agree that a little ball-busting should be present everywhere, but you crossed the line brother. Save face, man up, remove them and apologize.


If anyone has any other questions or comments I will answer as best as I can.

[JackTee09]

NDeMarse:

Thanks for your input. Hopefully it educated a few people.


.

[Ltmdepas3280]

I have watch the video several times and can relate to the tactics used by the FDNY (I attended F.L.S.T.P. at Totten and spent several classes on tactics with Capt. Cunningham). I did notice that there was a heavy smoke condition near the entrance door shortly after the line was placed...I assume thats when the door to the floor or the apartment was opened and the attack began. I must say that the knock down was achived quickly .....but I guess when you have the manpower all the important task will get accomplished and the job will get done. The Question I have is on placement of the trucks...the 1st due looked like it had a good position at the front of the building and could access the front face and the roof, why didn't the second due move farther up the block so it could grab the rear of the building also.

[Scandall]

The Detroit Fire Fighters website has lots of photos of apparatus, firehouses, and fires. http://www.detroitfirefighters.net

Sure Fire Productions has Detroit and Michigan fire video available on their website http://www.surefireproductions.net

[JackTee09]

Scandall:

How are things in Detroit? It has been two years since I visited there. I only keep up now and again. Have things turned around?

[adamkhalil]

NDeMarse -- nice posts dude. Thanks for the info, very informative, and also the play-by-play on the video is nice cuase i'm upstate of you in a little town of 25000 people and had no idea how the FDNY operated on stuff like that. I just like watching the video also :-p

[Scandall]

Hello Jack,

Sorry to say Detroit is at a crisis point with layoffs and Company closings. First round of layoffs cost the DFD 47 members and 5 companies. The second round in August might cost up to 140 men and 12 companies. We won't know the exact numbers until it happens. The city is reluctant to release any information.

I fear that these reductions in manpower and rigs are going to be disastrous. I have been in the city video taping fires and they are already short staffed for their fire load. On saturday we went from fire to fire to fire to fire. Good footage for me but, bad for the guys. I hope this action by the city doesn't result in injuries or death but I fear the worst. I will post when I get some firm data.

Stay safe

[SteveDude]

SteveDude:
Great posts and I'm always learning how the UK'ers and Europeans are fighting fires over there. I have no idea how you guys manage things that way, but it works well for you! It amazes me! We don't even have booster lines on our rigs and how we would get it up there with 2 guys is beyond me :-)

It's good to hear from you again Steve, how ya been?


Good to hear from you too Nat, Sorry I didn't get over when I planned... I'll have to see how it goes later this year... I need a month over there and ££££'s to get to see so many of you Guys.

The Hosereel would have been pulled up by about 4 members if its taken internally, usually run up the middle of the stairs... often, a Long-line (rope) is taken up and dropped from a window and the hosereel is pulled up the outside. LIke I said...that particular Building is very similar to many of ours....wooden Buildings all over the rest of the City are not.... thus we have Boosters you don't.

I Have no doubt I could have you working my system in my Brigade in no time at all and me vise versa...but to get tow Great, Proud Firefighting Nations to adopt a whole new way of working will never happen...having said that, a lot of stuiff gets adopted either way as the years go by.... accountability and Ventilation are two big examples of tactics from one side now widely used acorss the other side.

Great commentry Mate....

:)

Photo of a hosereel taken up the outside....

[SamsonFCDES]

Steve, Are those 1" or 3/4" hardlines?

PSI?

Foam?

Whats the nozzle like?

How much hose on the reel?

Do they kick back?

Gallons per minute?

Thanks!

[SteveDude]

Samson,
The Hose is reinforced rubber with about .75 inch internal diameter, 1.5 inch on the outside.

They flow about 35gpm ar about 580psi from a Multi Stage Pump...allowing a regular handline to flow at 100psi at the same time.

The Pumps have a foam induction system and foam can be produced at 3% or 6% using an aspirator fitted to the nozzle. The nozzle is a ?? (oops forgot the make) combination nozzle, there is 200ft on a revolving drum on either side.

As soon as the Power Take of is in, the gate valve open and the revs increased the water is at the nozzle. And finally it does have a fair kickback for its size... but it is amazingly versatile and puts out a lot of fire.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

NDeMarse - Thanks for your excellent input and 'commentary' on the fire video. It's not often we get an opportunity to see it up close and discuss tactics with the experts and boy the FDNY are that! Your time is appreciated, along with your generous comments.

Mail me your company assignment if you get the chance. Always happy to talk with a Bronx firefighter. I worked two years up there on detachment in the mid seventies in and around the old 7th Division. Fire4242@aol.com

Dudeney .... you're a Chief .... what would you know about firefighting :D

[cdemarse]

great post Nate, as usually I fully agree with you. For the guys saying it took them a while to get the line in place. I personally would rather the line take longer to be in place and have it properly done then to have it streached fast and have to try and fix the problems after its too late.

A lot of times rushing is not the answer, take your time and do it right at a steady pace.

Another good job from the brothers of FDNY

[NDeMarse]

That's right Curt,

Your own brother better back you up!!

Guys,
I'm heading back to IL right now. He knows if he didn't back me up I'd be within striking distance before the night is out!

That is if my #$#@ing plane takes off before the end of the millenium! Stupid LaGuardia!

Thank God for Terminal A's wireless internet!

[Weruj1]

only 45 mins from Detroit......Good luck there. From my viewpoint of not knowing the FDNY tactics I was pretty darn impressed by this firefighting effort.

[cdemarse]

Originally posted by NDeMarse
That's right Curt,

Your own brother better back you up!!

Guys,
I'm heading back to IL right now. He knows if he didn't back me up I'd be within striking distance before the night is out!

That is if my #$#@ing plane takes off before the end of the millenium! Stupid LaGuardia!

Thank God for Terminal A's wireless internet!

Dont make me break out the Jitsu chop.

atleast your waiting in the terminal and not 3 hours on the plane like I did :p

[erics99]

NDeMarse,

Thanks for your input on this forum. Keep it up!

[SteveDude]

Dudeney .... you're a Chief .... what would you know about firefighting

LOL, I Heard about it once...and read a couple of dodgy books on the subjetc!!!!:eek:

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

You mean Chiefs can read now?!
http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/readdum.jpg:D :D

[hwoods]

Paul, Nice shot of Steve there, if he held the book up a bit higher the content would be over his head. :D :D :D (Sorry, couldn't pass that up) Back to the video. I've seen, let's see, er... maybe a few Fires in my Career :rolleyes: and I see a pretty damn good job here. One thing that I DO NOT do, as an I.C. is put water thru windows or vent openings UNLESS we are 101% sure everyone is out of the way. Several posters before me have stated, correctly in my book, that there is too great a chance of causing harm to our own, as well as any remaining victims. I do take exception to the idea that there was a delay in getting water on the Fire. It appears to me that the entrance is somewhat offset to the building, and locating the proper path into the Fire area would be difficult. Anyway, Good Job, all around.

[SteveDude]

What can I say.... my balls are well and truly 'busted':D

Anyway,

I fully agree with H. There is a temptation to hit the fire from the ground...there is flame and we have water....for us in the UK immediately available.... the temptation needs to be checked.

I can relate a story...it was Christmas Evening 1990, just after change of shift at 18:00 both Pumps and the Aerial which I was riding were ordered to a 'Fire with a number' (a fire call with an actual specific street address instead of a road). En Route we were getting multiple calls so it was clearly a job.

The Pumps were in a minute before us on the lumbering old Aerial, so as we arrived the Maisonette (two storey apartment) on the 2nd and 3rd floors (3rd and 4th to you Guys) was well alight. The Crews had laid out a inch and a half line at the back, the others went up into the maisonette next door threw a rope down and were hauling the hoseline up toward the fire. (the back of the apartment was on the street, the door at the rear facing a courtyard) This gave a small window of opportunity to the Driver of the Pump waiting to supply the hose. everyone else was busy, laying out hose to the fire and Hydrant, getting up top the fire floor etc. He had his pump set in and was just waiting for the order for water on... so he went to the side locker, pulled a few feet of hosereel, cranked up the revs and started aiming the jet into one of the burning windows.

Now, it wasn't that effective as the place was well alight, but still it was having an impact. This was happening as we pulled round the corner, I saw this and thought it strange... all of a sudden the Guvnor, (Station Officer/Capt) hollered to him about WTF was he doing, pushing the fire back inside the job, there may be people inside, still viable...other Crews are just about to enbter and don't need the fire pushed onto them..."

The Driver suitably berated dropped the Hosereel and went back to his pump panel. I see what he was trying to do... we had arrived and because of the layout and amount of fire it was pointless pulling a hosereel on this occasion, it needed a larger diameter and it needed hauling up so 'quick water' would have been delayed until they threw the rope down anyway... he saw a whole body of flame...him momentarily without a task and felt the need to be seen to be getting some water on the fire.... a mind set caused by our 'Quick Water' attack maybe??? Anyway, the long and the short was, he freelanced, he went against the OIC's plan...and the OIC had the whole picture with what he saw and what others were telling him.

[SteveDude]

However...
we do have the good old 'Covering Jet' taught right from the early days at Training at the bog standard "Pitch the ladder to the the third (4th) floor, get a jet to work on the third floor by hauling aloft and a covering jet to work from the ground floor"

This is a favourite drill one used by many Officers at the beginning of a drill session just to get the 'blood warmed up' The whole principle of the 'covering jet' is just what it states.. to 'cover' if you have a man going up to the 3rd floor on a ladder to make a rescue and flame from the 2nd floor...then the jet will give him cover...

It's principal is to protect surroundings from ignition by 'auto exposure'...i.e the as yet unaffedcted windows and room above a fire... not to drive the flame back inside the stucture. I think the principal of the 'covering jet' gets lost at times.

[SamsonFCDES]

With your high pressur reels...

35 gpm at 500+ psi. Will that realy push the fire around?

Doesnt seem like enough gpm, and with the high pressure it would be a fine fog, correct?

Wouldnt that get a huge amount of steam conversion and cool the fire down a great deal?

I am thinking in reference to the pump operator that was shooting throug the window with the reel.

[SamsonFCDES]

Just to add to the above.

A quote from PaulG in the Big Water from the outside thread.
---------------------------------------------------------------
2. Offensively, to get some rapid knock-down just prior to entry .... yes in some situations. But you have to weigh the pros and cons .... to control fire spread is the main reason you would do this. That FDNY footage earlier showed a post-flashover fire that appeared to double in size (floor area) from the time first units arrived on-scene to the moment water went onto that fire. A hit from the street may have bought some time for occupants trapped in semi-involved areas. However, it may also have steamed a couple of occupants. Don't be misguided as I have never seen a straight stream 'push' fire. What I have seen is expanding steam create heat movements inside the structure.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Aaaargghh Samson .... Now you've dragged the debate back here again from your new thread! :D

It's more about tradition and acceptance. As a young inexperienced firefighter I once found myself in a similar situation to Steve's scenario. We couldn't locate the entrance to a fire that was very similar to the video but on the 2nd floor and 3rd floors of a narrower structure. Only there were people roasting in this one in front of my eyes. One woman had jumped to the street in flames and another was draped over the window ledge with fire roaring out and was clearly dead. I was concerned as we weren't going further than the street, whilst trying to locate the correct entrance, so I directed the stream through the window where the woman was draped.

I was screamed at by the Guv'nor (Chief) and he made it clear we just don't do that kinda thing. I never ever did again!

But .... I have always wondered why! The fire in question was spreading up the stairshaft to the top floor. In that situation I could have slowed that process from the street. I know people were in there but they were being forced out by the fire anyway.

Steve is right, they generally don't do it that way in London in saveable structures and I am of the understanding that FDNY are probably still the same. It doesn't look good .... it's not professional .... and it can 'steam' people inside.

However, you go 50 miles outside London and fire brigades are writing this form of attack into their procedures using CAFS! They tell me that a quick knock-down through the window prior to going interior causes almost NO steam and cools the fire dramatically.

[NDeMarse]

I don't buy into the CAFS through the window attack. From what I gather, most of the CAFS line is still water anyway, correct?

I cannot see where pushing ANY type of line through a window will not drive fire, smoke or steam to other areas of the building. We all know that products of combustion follow the path of least resistance. If you put a line in a window and the rest of the house (behind the fire) is open, the window is no longer the path of least resistance and the products will travel behind the fire.

Perhaps CAFS magically makes all of the fire just disappear with none of the effects (steam & smoke) that we know to be true. I find that hard to believe.

And it's settled. From now on I am calling ALL of my bosses Gov'ner! That's great!

I can't wait for the looks I'll get. THey are going to look at me like I have a c#ck growing out of my forehead. LOL

[SteveDude]

And it's settled. From now on I am calling ALL of my bosses Gov'ner! That's great!

Now that is a true LFB thing... no one else in the UK uses "Guv'nor" its a cockney (Londoner) thing... used regularly by Firemen and Cops in London to address those of Station Officer Rank (Captain) and above... (or Inspector and above in the Police)

Funny enough, when I was staying at E37/L40 in Harlem back in 02 they were calling me 'Chief' and I objected, we got around to the whole "What do they call you then" thing and we had a real scream with them calling me "Guv'nor" in their best New York/Dick Van Dyke London Accents!!!:D

Elsewhere in the UK they use 'Boss' 'Sir' 'Chief' 'Gaffer' (a northern England version of Guv'nor)... or shortened versions of their rank...i.e Sub for Sub Officer (Lt) and so on.

Nat, check your e-mail... I want you to comment on this same thread on the UK forum...

Samson,
He used the Hosereel in Straight Stream/jet mode... so it was still going in through the windows...like I said, probably not having the impact a large smooth bore would, but not good practice full stop.

I am having this debate on the UK forum using the video (hope you don't mind) and there us City Firefighters (LFB, Manchester etc)... are saying... yep, go from the Inside.... some others like Paul said are saying they would hit it from the outside to get an element of control back... a risky process...sure it may darken down at the front, but where else will it end up in the Building?

[CaptainS]

I don't buy into the CAFS through the window attack. From what I gather, most of the CAFS line is still water anyway, correct?

I think you have this confused with asperated foam with an injection system.

With out adding the air to the system you are correct the line is mostly water with the solution added to it.

A CAFS line usally it works out to half air, half water/product.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Captain S is correct in that a CAFS stream comprises of additional air forced into the stream under pressure. Now I am not certain of the ratios but I understand that more water is used in a US CAFS stream than in the UK. I am told that the ratio of water to CAF in the US is around 1-3 whereas in the UK and Europe it is 1-7 in some cases. This 1-7 mix (I am told) is drier but more effective in its ability to penetrate and cling to surfaces. However it is ideal for compartment fires with very low flow (water) rates around 42gpm.

You hit it from the street and the walls, ceiling and burning surfaces in the fire room are all coated instantly with CAF. The suppression is faster and more effective than water and less steam is produced.

It is not in my experience to see fire 'pushed' into a building whilst using a straight stream from the exterior for rapid knockdown. However, that does not mean it can't happen!

[SamsonFCDES]

The CAFS units I work around have adjustment.

It says right on the lever "Dry--------Wet"

You can adjust the amount of water.

Dry comes out like shaving cream.

Wet comes out like water with LOTS of foam and a few bubbles.

I have seen the shaving cream with class A foam put out everthing from wildland fire to structure fire to crude oil fires.

I have not ever noticed a significant amount of steam conversion.

[Scandall]

Never, ever, leave your wing man, or put a line in the window.
The video was a classic example of how to fight fire, from the inside out!! It might seem like it took a long time for things to happen but they attacked methodically and did a great job.
I spent my last 12 years on Detroit as a FEO (Fire Engine Operator)and we always had to watch out for new drivers freelancing and wanting to hit it from the outside.

Nice explanation of the tactics by Nate.

[Bones42]

How much of a room's walls and ceiling are going to be covered by shooting a CAFS line at ground level into a 3rd floor window?

[firefiftyfive]

I have a question about this new CAFS stuff. It supposed to put fire out quicker right? But does it weigh a lot more than water? Therefore making it much more difficult to maneuver the line.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Originally posted by E229Lt
Very interesting.

Most FDNY members who saw this video were quite critical of the operation.

No, I won't elaborate.:rolleyes:


I think you guys are a little too hard on yourselves. Sometimes it's function over form. That fire was put out pretty quick.

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by firefiftyfive
I have a question about this new CAFS stuff. It supposed to put fire out quicker right? But does it weigh a lot more than water? Therefore making it much more difficult to maneuver the line.

:eek:

Water 8.33 lbs.

1 cubic foot of air at standard temperature and pressure assuming average composition weighs approximately 0.0807 lbs.

If you have 1-1 mix you hose weights half of what it would with straight water.

If you have a 1-3 dry foam mix your hose wieghs 1/3 of what it would with straight water.

[PaulGRIMWOOD]

Originally posted by firefiftyfive
I have a question about this new CAFS stuff. It supposed to put fire out quicker right? But does it weigh a lot more than water? Therefore making it much more difficult to maneuver the line. Well CAFS certainly isn't 'new' .... and one of its biggest advantages is that it is so light in the hose and far easier to manoeuvre than plain water.

How much of a room's walls and ceiling are going to be covered by shooting a CAFS line at ground level into a 3rd floor window? You'd better ask those that are doing it .... these guys just love it!

Why are so many against straight stream or CAFS offensive exterior attacks? If you have had a bad experience the likelihood is that it was bad timing .... not bad tactics? If you have never had any expeience of this strategy than how can you comment? I believe this is all about an old tradition being handed down to rookies. (I can see that being quoted and opposed over and again! :D )

[Bones42]

You'd better ask those that are doing it Think I just did. No one in my area uses CAFS at this time. Yes, I have attacked a fire from the outside using a straight stream and it did work well. And Yes, I've been inside when someone did it incorrectly and gave me a good steam bath. Again, the streams fault but the operators. :o For a third floor fire, I can't imagine trying to shoot any stream from the ground into the window and hope for anything effective. Then again, I only have 1 building over 3 floors so my knowledge there is limited.