Not al-Queada, not ELF, but still terrorists.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

This could happen in your backyard, too. Read past the guns and read what they were trying (ineptly) to do with explosives.

Suspected skinheads aimed to kill, cops say
Officials uncover plot to bomb minorities
Wednesday, May 25, 2005
BY RICK HEPP
Star-Ledger Staff
Two alleged neo-Nazis who face federal charges for illegally selling firearms had their sights set much higher -- killing minorities in southern New Jersey by detonating a bomb similar to the one used in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, authorities said.

One of the suspected skinheads, Gabriel Carafa, 24, of Pennsville, Salem County, approached a man -- who turned out to be a confidential informant working with the state Division of Criminal Justice's Office of Bias Crimes -- in January and said he was looking for cohorts to build a bomb that he could use to kill minorities.

"We believe the target of the bombing plot would have been members of South Jersey's minority communities," Criminal Justice spokesman John Hagerty said.

The informant relayed the tip to the Office of Bias Crimes and authorities quickly set up a sting using an undercover investigator to catch Carafa, Hagerty said. Working with the confidential informant, the undercover investigator quickly struck a deal in which Carafa agreed to provide the bomb's ingredients if they agreed to build it.

Carafa delivered 60 pounds of urea -- a commercial fertilizer that Oklahoma City bomber Timothy J. McVeigh used in creating the bomb that destroyed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and killed 168 people. But investigators found the compound "low grade and insufficient for bomb use," Hagerty said.

Meanwhile, Carafa had begun selling undercover investigators firearms stolen by an accomplice, Craig Orler, 28, of Whiting, during burglaries of homes in Ocean and Salem counties.

"Once they started to provide more and more guns, we decided to take these guys down," said Criminal Justice Director Vaughn McKoy.

State authorities contacted the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to assist in the arrest because federal gun laws carry stiffer penalties than those in New Jersey, McKoy said.

In all, undercover investigators purchased 10 long guns and one handgun for $1,100 before arresting Carafa and Orler on Friday and charging them with possession of weapons by a convicted felon.

Carafa pleaded guilty in 2004 to bias intimidation after beating a convenience store night manager who was Hindu, while Orler has at least three prior state convictions for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and burglary.

The two are being held without bail, and if convicted face at least 15 years behind bars.

McKoy said investigators continue to probe the white supremacy groups Carafa and Orler belong to in New Jersey. Authorities allege Carafa is a leader in both the Church of the Creator and a neo- Nazi skinhead group called "The Hated," while Orler is a member of "The Hated."

"We know there are still members out there in that community," McKoy said. "We've been gathering intelligence about hate groups around the state for years, ... and we're going to continue to be vigilant in identifying, targeting and prosecuting these individuals when and if they commit crimes."

[EastKyFF]

Sadly, terrorism begins at home. We must avoid tunnel vision and remember that south Jersey or east Kentucky or central Utah is as vulnerable to terrorism as NYC, LA, and the like. Maybe not from al-Qaeda, but from any of a laundry list of whackos.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by EastKyFF
Sadly, terrorism begins at home. We must avoid tunnel vision and remember that south Jersey or east Kentucky or central Utah is as vulnerable to terrorism as NYC, LA, and the like. Maybe not from al-Qaeda, but from any of a laundry list of whackos.

Actually, target-hardening and preparedness begins at home.

[FFTide]

Actually I am going to disagree with the statement that this is terrorism. We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.

As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

In this case I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities. That in and of itself is a horrible crime but I do not think it is terrorism. Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror? Or were they just out to kill for killings sake?

Flame on!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by FFTide
Actually I am going to disagree with the statement that this is terrorism. We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.

As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

In this case I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities. That in and of itself is a horrible crime but I do not think it is terrorism. Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror? Or were they just out to kill for killings sake?

Flame on!

Flame on it will be...

Do "minorities count as people? Do neo-nazi skinheads who have a name and a hierarchy count as "...a person or an organized group"? Does trying to blow up and kill a specific group of people-who are "different" than the skinheads and are inarguably the antithesis of their political ideology "...]:"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence"?

Saying "I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities" is like saying Hitler only wanted to scare the Jews.

You "There is no such thing as terrorism" people slay me. If this is the best argument you have, you lose big time.

[FFTide]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


Flame on it will be...

Do "minorities count as people? Do neo-nazi skinheads who have a name and a hierarchy count as "...a person or an organized group"? Does trying to blow up and kill a specific group of people-who are "different" than the skinheads and are inarguably the antithesis of their political ideology "...]:"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence"?

Saying "I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities" is like saying Hitler only wanted to scare the Jews.

You "There is no such thing as terrorism" people slay me. If this is the best argument you have, you lose big time.

YESSSSSS!

That didn't take long at all!

You want to use some of your own words rather than rearrange mine?

According to you I believe you could consider any crime by one entity against another entity, terrorism. Did I say there is NO such thing as terrorism? No I didn't. I suggest you try again as well.

[Bones42]

Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror? I think Yes they were. I think they were trying/hoping to scare minorities in that area into moving away. If they wanted to kill just to kill, they would not have been targeting minorities only.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by FFTide


YESSSSSS!

That didn't take long at all!

You want to use some of your own words rather than rearrange mine?

According to you I believe you could consider any crime by one entity against another entity, terrorism. Did I say there is NO such thing as terrorism? No I didn't. I suggest you try again as well.

I don't have to use "my words". The answer is in your words.

Are you for real?

These are not "entities" in the sense you are misusing the word. The aggressors are an organized criminal group. Google "Matthew Hale" and see what you find. They are not holding bake sales and car washes. The almost victims are members of a demographic, not by choice, but by virtue of the color of their skin, the location of their birth or other such sociological factor.

And yes, any act of violence by an organized criminal group for the purpose of coercing or intimidating a group because of their race or ethnic origin IS terrorism...by YOUR definition.

[EastKyFF]

Terrorism is perpetrated against more than just the physical victims. When the Klan lynched one black man, did they not aim to frighten all black men? When al Qaeda hit the WTC, did they not aim to frighten all Americans?

The overt violence is intended to create a mental effect in other "could-be" victims. This was terrorism.

(And George, to clarify my first post, I mean to say that other countries don't have a monopoly on terrorists. We have plenty of them home-grown. I'm with you on target-hardening and preparedness.)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'll save you the trouble. Check out this link:

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Hale.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_Amer ica&xpicked=2&item=mh

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

(And George, to clarify my first post, I mean to say that other countries don't have a monopoly on terrorists. We have plenty of them home-grown. I'm with you on target-hardening and preparedness.)

I knew that.

[jasper45]

U.S. Department of Justice
----Terrorism
A violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any segment to intimidate or coerce a government, the civillian poulation, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

USC Title 22. Section 2656f(d)

Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents usually intended to influence an audience.

Categories of Terrorism :

- domestic terrorism
- international terrorism
- right wing terrorism
- left wing terrorism
- special interest terrorism
- state sponsored terrorism
- formalized groups
- loosly affiliated radical elements

These are all categories defined as terrorism by our government, I think the neo-nazi's and their goals fit into one or more of these groups.
In fact, under right wing terrorism it covers the neo-nazi movement quite well. In fact the U.S. government lists white supremist groups under the term 'right wing terrorist groups'.


Right wing terrorism

---- " Right wing groups generally adhere to an anti-government or RACIST ideology, and continue to attract supporters in the United States. These groups include some so called militia organizations that not only prepare to defend themselves against percieved government excesses, but also plan and attempt to execute offensive operations designed to disrupt the funtioning of government."


I think it's safe to say that since an attempt at using explosives was made, this incident in particular falls into a differant category. An explosive device would surely cause more panic and mayhem than your average skinhead beating.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by jasper45
U.S. Department of Justice
----Terrorism
A violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any segment to intimidate or coerce a government, the civillian poulation, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

USC Title 22. Section 2656f(d)

Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents usually intended to influence an audience.

Categories of Terrorism :

- domestic terrorism
- international terrorism
- right wing terrorism
- left wing terrorism
- special interest terrorism
- state sponsored terrorism
- formalized groups
- loosly affiliated radical elements

These are all categories defined as terrorism by our government, I think the neo-nazi's and their goals fit into one or more of these groups.
In fact, under right wing terrorism it covers the neo-nazi movement quite well. In fact the U.S. government lists white supremist groups under the term 'right wing terrorist groups'.


Right wing terrorism

---- " Right wing groups generally adhere to an anti-government or RACIST ideology, and continue to attract supporters in the United States. These groups include some so called militia organizations that not only prepare to defend themselves against percieved government excesses, but also plan and attempt to execute offensive operations designed to disrupt the funtioning of government."

There you go. Muddying up this thread with facts.

[ChiefReason]

Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.
The key word in "terrorism" is "terror". Mommy and Daddy could be terrorists in the loose translation.
Some moron driving very aggressively can be terrifying.
Just because they cover their face with a Goofy mask instead of a burkha doesn't mean that they aren't a terrorist.
Let's add it up.
Yep; terrorism.
CR

[FFTide]

Originally posted by ChiefReason
Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.


If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).

[FFTide]

**Edit** Accidential double post

[pvfire424]

We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.

As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

Now this is just me (and I imagine lots more) but , one could argue that "a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals" could be considered a "society (or societies) ". There by making the actions of those mentioned in the article INDEED terrorism.

Thats what I think, but then again, I could be wrong. (doubt it)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by FFTide


If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).

Personal attack? What are you 12? If that is the worst personal attack you have been on the recieving end of, you have led a very lucky life.:rolleyes:

[FFTide]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


Personal attack? What are you 12? If that is the worst personal attack you have been on the recieving end of, you have led a very lucky life.

No, not 12, and no, not the only attack I've ever received. But I do NOT want to be painted as a Neo-Nazi just because I don't happen to agree with you! Sorry I disagree with you GWCFI, I see anyone who does in these forums gets a lashing from you, guess I'm just your next victum huh? God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by FFTide


No, not 12, and no, not the only attack I've ever received. But I do NOT want to be painted as a Neo-Nazi just because I don't happen to agree with you! Sorry I disagree with you GWCFI, I see anyone who does in these forums gets a lashing from you, guess I'm just your next victum huh? God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.

Not a victim, but before you debate, you should have truth and facts on your side. If you can't hold your end of the debate, you are not automatically a victim.

BTW, I didn't see anyone even come close to calling you a neo-nazi.

[bobsnyder]

Originally posted by FFTide
God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.

I don't think this is a "point of view" issue. The word "terrorism" has a legal definition, and that definition certainly includes hate groups such as the Church of the Creator. This group, and similar ones, were being referred to in this way in law enforcement bulletins long before 9/11 or, for that matter, Oklahoma City.

You, FFTide (happy?), seem to be just fishing for an argument. That's fine, I suppose, but if you're going to do that, at least try to bring a point (and a clue) with you when you come to the pond. Bashing someone's use of a long-accepted reference to well-known criminal behavior probably isn't the best way to make whatever point you were trying to make, but it is a good way to end up looking foolish. Just trying to help...

------------------------------------------

In other news, this is two days in a row I've jumped in on George's side...pretty soon they'll make me trade in my blue card for a red one. I must send a tithe off to Howard, post haste! :p

[BFDNJFF]

I am going to agree with fftide on this seems to me more of a racially motivated crime.

Either way these people suck just as much and who cares what they are in anyone’s book IMO they are all jack asses!

[snowball]

What's wierd here is that "Gabriel Carafa" is (if I'm not mistaken) a name of Hispanic decent.:rolleyes:

[ChiefReason]

FFTide wrote:
If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).

ChiefReason wrote:
Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.
If you are inferring that I was referring to you as a skinhead, then I am none too pleased by your personal attack.
Get a grip, FF. In no way does that post even come close to personally attacking you.
I was making a sarcastic, but insightful reference to a group that somehow doesn't fit into your definition of a terrorist group.
When you throw out an opinion, however misguided; be prepared to discuss it or defend it; whichever the case.
But don't take it personally; unless you want to.
CR

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by BFDNJFF
I am going to agree with fftide on this seems to me more of a racially motivated crime.

Either way these people suck just as much and who cares what they are in anyone’s book IMO they are all jack asses!

What are you talking about? If the attacks were motivated by an effort to hurt a group of people based on their race, that IS terrorism.

God, it's incredible how some of you don't get it.

[Tillerman17]

Sure it's terrorism. Once a group or an individual sets their ambitions on furthering a cause or ideal where the result is the death of a specific group of people they have to be labeled as terrorists. Religion does not have to be the only motivating factor.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by ChiefReason
FFTide wrote:


ChiefReason wrote:

If you are inferring that I was referring to you as a skinhead, then I am none too pleased by your personal attack.
Get a grip, FF. In no way does that post even come close to personally attacking you.
I was making a sarcastic, but insightful reference to a group that somehow doesn't fit into your definition of a terrorist group.
When you throw out an opinion, however misguided; be prepared to discuss it or defend it; whichever the case.
But don't take it personally; unless you want to.
CR
MOMMMMMMMMYYYYYY!!!!!! Harve is picking on me!

[BFDNJFF]

George i dont care either way ! i will state it again...

Either way these people suck just as much and who cares what they are in anyone’s book IMO they are all jack asses!


But i forgot george u are mr fact checker and have nothing better to do then bash other peoples opinions , i am so sorry mr all knowing george of the firehouse forum :rolleyes:

[pvfire424]

This has nothing to do with anyone bashing someone else. There is a clear definition of the word Terrorism, and quite frankly it applies here. Who cares !?, WHO CARES, obviously we do and we all should!.

Now I am no lawyer, and I dont do research that well, but I am pretty sure being a jack ass isnt illegal, but opperating as a terrorist is.

Quite frankly your opinion that these white supremacists are not terrorists, it moot. There is no room for interpretation/opinion.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by BFDNJFF
George i dont care either way ! i will state it again...




But i forgot george u are mr fact checker and have nothing better to do then bash other peoples opinions , i am so sorry mr all knowing george of the firehouse forum :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with an opinion. It is not an "opinion" that the Church of the Creator is not a terrorist organization. It is WRONG! It's like having an opinion that the sky isn't blue or the sun isn't hot. It's misinformed, misguided and simply wrong.

But keep up the "poor me. George is always picking on me" mantra.

[BFDNJFF]

But keep up the "poor me. George is always picking on me" mantra.

yeah sure your right i can no longer deal with the pressures of george picking on me lololol give me a break bro :)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

These guys are probably just little pyros, huh? No domestic terrorism possibility here!

N. Carolina Cross-Burnings Investigated

The Associated Press
Thursday, May 26, 2005; 10:06 AM



DURHAM, N.C. -- Three large crosses were burned in separate spots around the city during a span of just over an hour, and yellow fliers with Ku Klux Klan sayings were found at one location, police said.

The cross burnings Wednesday night marked the first time in recent memory that one of the South's most notorious symbols of racial hatred has been seen in the city.

"At this day and time, I thought we'd be beyond that," said Mayor Bill Bell. "People do things for different reasons, and I don't have the slightest idea why anyone would do this."

The first burning was reported at 9:19 p.m. outside St. Luke's Episcopal Church. The next came at 9:54 p.m. atop a large pile of dirt near an apartment complex construction site; the third was at 10:28 p.m. at a downtown intersection.

Police said each cross was about 7 feet tall and 4 feet wide and made of four 2-by-4s. They were wrapped in burlap and doused in a liquid that smelled like kerosene.

Burning a cross without the permission of the property owner is a misdemeanor in North Carolina. However, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2003 that, under the First Amendment, cross burning could be barred only when done with the intent to intimidate.

Cross burnings have been associated with the Ku Klux Klan since the early 20th century. The first known cross burning occurred when a Georgia mob celebrated a lynching, according to the high court decision.

Bell said he couldn't recall a cross burning in Durham since he arrived in 1968. He said his office had not received any correspondence suggesting someone might target the city with cross burnings.

[BFDNJFF]

George I am going to label you a terrorist now because all you do is ridicule people on firehouse forums for not agreeing with you and posting there opinions. :)(that was sarcasm)

What next news article are you going to throw up here to argue about now:rolleyes:

Either way i am done with this thread because it is going no where and is not woth talking about it any more.We all dont have to agree with everything thats why we live in a free country.:)

[pvfire424]

ya know, its kinda funny because I was considering the same thing about myself. If I want to rid the world of ignorant people, does that mean I am a terrorist, hmmm maybe.

Difference is I am not trying to kill them, just educate them.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by BFDNJFF
George I am going to label you a terrorist now because all you do is ridicule people on firehouse forums for not agreeing with you and posting there opinions. :)(that was sarcasm)

What next news article are you going to throw up here to argue about now:rolleyes:

Either way i am done with this thread because it is going no where and is not woth talking about it any more.We all dont have to agree with everything thats why we live in a free country.:)

I don't ridicule people when they don't agree with me. That is called debate. I ridicule them when they write stupid things.

If you are "done with this thread" you ought to go away in shame. You were dead, dead wrong.

[ChiefReason]

I am continually amazed at how we get some discussion on a very thought provoking going and then, because someone throws out an opinion or two, can't get the buy-in and says "I'm done".
I swear, George; it's going to be down to a dozen or so who have the patience and resource to actually discuss/debate a topic that is meaningful.
Ever notice how the "what kind of cereal do you eat" thread gets a thousand replies, but when a relevant topic is posted, you get 10 -15 replies because it takes too much food for thought to actually discuss something.
It's easier to swerve to miss a snake than it is to debate terrorism.
I shall change my username to BigHooters and become the most prolific poster of fluffy little pieces on subjects such as bikini/thong; what is your cup size and my favorite-is it wrong to think I'm sexxy in my turnout gear?(giggle-giggle, gush)
Sorry; went a little overboard, but I'm too lazy to edit it.
For those offended; start a new thread.
CR:cool:

[Res343cue]

In this day in age, when the word "terrorist" gets thrown around, many people instantly think of a Muslim from the Middle East. Almost as if the word "Terrorist" has become synonymous with the word "Middle Easterner" or "Iraqi" or "Afghani". Lack of education, promotion of stereotypes, promotion of discrimination, and so much more lead up to our complacence with the nation around us.

Ask ten people on the street what they think of when they hear the word terrorist. I'm willing to bet nine of those ten will instantly fall back to September 11th right away, as if it's the only "terrorist" event on our soil.

Terrorism isn't just from Muslim Middle-Easterners. It's from our own Americans too. Anybody remember Timothy McVeigh's little "stunt" with the Rider truck and it's two ton bomb? Domestic Terrorism right there, by "one of our own", an American citizen.

Terrorism comes in all shapes and sizes. It doesn't have to be planes crashing into national icons, or a dirty bomb inflicting damage upon our country. Terrorism can be on the small scales, and the large.

How about "MS-13"? Anybody remember who they are? How many other "MS-13" style gangs do we have in the USA? How many "Gangs" can inflict terror upon society?

Terrorists come in all shapes and forms, and terrorism comes in on many levels too. It's not just about foreign citizens crashing planes into our buildings, it's about creating terror on the home front.

Terror is the first part of terrorism. Terror and terrorist. See the link? terror - Creating fear in society.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

There are terrorists that operate everyday in urban America. (suburban too). They are gang-banging thugs who TERRORIZE their very own neighborhoods and the decent people who live in them.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I firmly believe, from my training and personal experience, that domestic terrorism is far more of a threat to our wayt of life than Islamic terrorism. They hit us home once, big. They will probably hit us again. But our homegrown domestic terrorists hit us every day.

One of the problems is that we are fixated on the Muslims. We are spending billions of dollars to harden large, spectacular targets. Yet we forget the basics. I met someone at the train platform yesterday in Newark Penn Station. I walked in the front door, right through the concourse, right up to the platform (and I could have walked right onto the train) and I didn't have to pass through one single security point. Nobody even stopped me to ask where I was going. The word "Spain" pops into my head.

We have a very large shopping mall (surprising for NJ) in our county. I could literally drive a car through the main entrance and get the car to the center court.

I pretty much guarantee that I could walk into any high school in the middle of the day and go almost anywhere I wanted. I provided an in-service lecture on bomb threats and school violence to a middle school here in our county. Nobody knew me. I got there early and walked into the front door. I walked past the unmanned front desk, past the office and spent the next 20 minutes wandering around the school. I was approached by three teachers...who said "Hi" and kept on going. I did it to prove a point. When I announced during the training that I did it, man was the principal pissed.

But we have people talking about air defense systems, and air monitoring stations and satelite surveillance and all of this wizardry to stop another 9/11. Why waste the time hijacking an aircraft? If a group could coordinate 10 simultaneous attacks in malls or schools or trains across the country, it would have a far greater impact on your daily life than six 9/11's.

But let's keep talking about "terrorism" is overused. Yeah and MS-13 is a group of misunderstood Latin Americans seeking their own identity, right?

And Chief, I couldn't agree with you more. I have made that point in the past. 2500 views on a thread about blue lights. But very few with the intellectual capability to carry on an intelligent discussion about very important and timely topics...as has been demonstrated on this thread.

[FFTide]

Ok, took a day to cool off from the forums, but I have a little more to say, and maybe regain some respect here.

I cannot dispute the fact that the government lables certain groups and activities as terroism. That point is taken.

In reading all the new replys yeasterday one thing popped into my head. In this "post 9/11 world" yes terrorism is often considered Mid-Eastern or Islamic vs. the USA. However, I would like to ask you in the "pre 9/11 world" 5+ years ago would you have considered the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups etc.etc. terrorists or mearly racial crimes or radicals? I think the term terroism is very very broad. The mafia could be considered terroists since they use their muscle and presence to get their way. I just believe the term needs to be tightened down a little... end of my opinion.

[scfire86]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

Saying "I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities" is like saying Hitler only wanted to scare the Jews.


Whoaaaa.....I feel all woozy. I agree with Norm here. I better lay down before I pass out.

These folks are punks. The ones I've met couldn't spell 'cat' if you gave them a 'c' and 't'. And somehow that is the fault of minorities.

And sadly. For many. I would bet they have been in these groups since high school. For the simple reason it was the only (or first) peer group that accepted them. You rarely see skinheads as captain of the football or academic teams.

That's all speculation on my part. So don't ask me for hard data.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by FFTide
Ok, took a day to cool off from the forums, but I have a little more to say, and maybe regain some respect here.

I cannot dispute the fact that the government lables certain groups and activities as terroism. That point is taken.

In reading all the new replys yeasterday one thing popped into my head. In this "post 9/11 world" yes terrorism is often considered Mid-Eastern or Islamic vs. the USA. However, I would like to ask you in the "pre 9/11 world" 5+ years ago would you have considered the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups etc.etc. terrorists or mearly racial crimes or radicals? I think the term terroism is very very broad. The mafia could be considered terroists since they use their muscle and presence to get their way. I just believe the term needs to be tightened down a little... end of my opinion.

How is it possible that you can be so ignorant?

Law enforcement has been teaching for years that the KKK and their ilk are domestic terrorists. The same for outlaw biker gangs, anti-abortion radicals, environmental extremists, etc. The fire service hasn't consiered them to be terrorist groups because, five years ago, unless you were involved in investigations, the fire service couldn't have given a rat's butt about terrorism...domestic or otherwise. 9/11 provided a hige wake-up call to the fire service. But this is an area that many law enforcement agencies have been working on for years and years.

Don't believe me? Research this question...when was the first act of bio-terrorism in the modern age committed on US soil? Hint: It happened on the West Coast.

On the mafia thing. Why does "La Cosa Nostra" operate? Is it to intimidate a group of people based on their race, religion, skin color etc? Nope. It is pure, unadultereated profit. Money. They are violent, they ar ruthless, they are shameful. hideous criminals, but they are not a domestic terrorist group.

[EFD840]

However, I would like to ask you in the "pre 9/11 world" 5+ years ago would you have considered the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups etc.etc. terrorists or mearly racial crimes or radicals?

Two words: Oklahoma City. Without a single shred of doubt, they would have been considered terrorists. The KKK wrote the book on terrorism in the post Civil War period and well into the 20th century and today's Neo-Nazi or skinhead is cut from the same mold as that era's KluKKer.

It makes no difference if they wear a turban, white hood, or have no hair and tote swastikas. They're all terrorists.

[EFD840]

It happened on the West Coast

Would you be talking about the 'salad bar' poisionings in Oregon? A cult called the "raj-somethings" tried to take control of the local government by making everyone but their voters and candidates sick with salmonella just before the elections?

Do I win the prize?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by EFD840


Would you be talking about the 'salad bar' poisionings in Oregon? A cult called the "raj-somethings" tried to take control of the local government by making everyone but their voters and candidates sick with salmonella just before the elections?

Do I win the prize?

You certainly do...kind of. What year?

[EFD840]

I would have to cheat to get the exact year, it was the early 1980s. A female in the upper leadership of the cult got convicted as the ring leader of the plot.

The cult leader got deported (India or Pakistan?), but I don't think he was ever tried on the poisionings.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by EFD840
I would have to cheat to get the exact year, it was the early 1980s. A female in the upper leadership of the cult got convicted as the ring leader of the plot.

The cult leader got deported (India or Pakistan?), but I don't think he was ever tried on the poisionings.

Close enough. You win.

1984.

In actuality, two persons were indicted but fled to Asia prior to the trial. 20 others were also indicted.

The plot involved the Rajneesh cult attempting to win 2 out of 3 contested judge's seats and the sheriff's office in Dalles, Oregon. They were going to accomplish this feat by poisoning the town's water supply with salmonella. To test it, they contaminated the salad bars in several restaurants. Several people were infected.

The plot backfired when it took the townsfolk about 15 minutes to figure out that the cult was responsible. They had a huge voter turnout to ensure that the cult did not win any seats.

This is a scenario that could be played out in any one of your towns today. It was not carried out by a rogue government or a large militaristic organization. It was carried out by a small group of religiously motivated zealots.

That is why these groups should be considered terrorists and should be considered more of a threat to the American way of life than UBL.

Think about how that incident would play out in your town. No crime scene. No cataclysmic event. Simply a rush of EMS runs for people with GI symptoms. The investigation will be carried out by law enforcement, physicians, epidemiologists and public health officials.