Should FOOLS fight fire?

[FTMPTB15]

No, not the F.O.O.L.S.!! But these FOOLS..:eek: this was taken at the scene of a fatality house fire. It is posted on http://www.firenews.net with comments that readers made. I was just curious what your thoughts might be about this kind of photo being in the paper... sure has given them negative publicity on firenews.. Also, this is a link to the story if anyone is intersted in the fire.
http://www.grahamstar.com/topstory.html

[prymtym]

Chief in black jacket: "C'mon now, R.Dubya. You know better 'an that. Take off that mesh-back hat and cover yer mouth with it!"

No offense,;)
KC

[FF41230]

Well lets see here, looks like the fool with the hooligan in his hand bustin out the window has his NFPA Compliant camo hat on. And that black coat yeah that's NFPA 1971, "1900" edition compliant. Gloves? We dont need no stinkin gloves! Very bad picture to be in the paper.

[t13one12]

Fighting fire is like hunting...you can't let the enemy see you. (Hence the camo hat) It's an exterior attack guys, you aren't in any DANGER or anything. ;)

Good time for OSHA to read the paper...

P.S. This was sarcastic in case you didn't notice.

[FyrTrukee]

This is why we still kill 100 firefighters a year in this country.

Where is the safety officer?

Interior/Exterior this scene is not controlled and not safe. If this is a drill the Lead Instructor for this drill will be arrested for his/her negligence. If this is a real fire the IC and safety have a lot of explaining to do.

[sexauer]

Originally posted by FyrTrukee
This is why we still kill 100 firefighters a year in this country.

Where is the safety officer?

Interior/Exterior this scene is not controlled and not safe. If this is a drill the Lead Instructor for this drill will be arrested for his/her negligence. If this is a real fire the IC and safety have a lot of explaining to do.

I'm sure i'll catch flack for saying this...but.....
volunteer department...you get what you pay for.

[len1582]

The Safety Officer is the one wearing the red shirt, making sure the scene is safe:p

[Weruj1]

WOW ...........I just looked at the link........>definetly NOT the pic you want in the paper .........what else can you say ?

[FyrTrukee]

Volunteer or career. It comes to down to training, and the level of proficiency of those trainers. I have seen career firefighters that are "professionals" do this same thing. I have seen volunteer firefighters work better than career. I have seen differences in pholosophy between East/West coast. East coast seems to be more lax in its safety application.

In my department we train like we "play" so it becomes second nature. I work in a combination department that the same standard is mandated through all ranks.

Not bad flack, but:rolleyes: :)

Keeping it real.

[sexauer]

Originally posted by FyrTrukee
Volunteer or career. It comes to down to training, and the level of proficiency of those trainers. I have seen career firefighters that are "professionals" do this same thing. I have seen volunteer firefighters work better than career. I have seen differences in pholosophy between East/West coast. East coast seems to be more lax in its safety application.

In my department we train like we "play" so it becomes second nature. I work in a combination department that the same standard is mandated through all ranks.

Not bad flack, but:rolleyes: :)

Keeping it real.

I'm sure it all depends on where you are in the world too....I know up north in maryland there are some volunteer depts that opperate on a professional level; however, i'd have to say the majority of volunteer depts are not....at least around here. With today's hectic schedules and busy lives, its increasingly harder for volunteers to make the time to obtain the necessary training. This forces the volunteer department to either go professional, run with only one or two qualified personel, disband, or lower the standards. Where I am from, though....I work for a small volunteer department as a part timer when i'm not on duty at my full time department, it amazes me every time I work a call there. Perhaps i'm just jaded from working at my second job.

[ranahan]

Originally posted by FyrTrukee
In my department we train like we "play" so it becomes second nature. I work in a combination department that the same standard is mandated through all ranks.

Who says this department wasn't training as they play?
Scary, I know.

For every case of fireground stupidity that we see exhibited in pics, talked about in forums or articles, I wonder how many more go on without being mentioned.
I know that we ALL make mistakes. I've been an idiot in the past too. But I got reprimanded (sometimes by myself), and I've learned. Until everyone starts learning, whether by experience or by having it drilled into heads, we are still going to see big numbers on the LODD and injury stats each year.

What more can I do to stop it? What more can you do? That's worth thinking about, I believe.

[NonSurfinCaFF]

Not to defend a very unsafe practice but I've noticed on many of these threads people attacking pictures of stuff like this. Yes it does come down to training but there are many departments in the US whose best structure rig is a 40 year old brush truck, and whose training library consists of a coverless 1st ed IFSTA essentials. Sure there are grants out there but people need to know how to get them and that is something many paid Chiefs don't know how to do.

Sorry to jump in like this but after seeing so many of these threads I just had to say something. I'm not sure whether is is better to have a bad fire department or no fire department.

[sexauer]

Originally posted by ranahan


Who says this department wasn't training as they play?
Scary, I know.


Check out some of their photos from training (I like the practice burn best myself)

http://www.main.nc.us/grahamcoems/photo_album.html

[FTMPTB15]

Originally posted by NonSurfinCaFF
Not to defend a very unsafe practice but I've noticed on many of these threads people attacking pictures of stuff like this. Yes it does come down to training but there are many departments in the US whose best structure rig is a 40 year old brush truck, and whose training library consists of a coverless 1st ed IFSTA essentials. Sure there are grants out there but people need to know how to get them and that is something many paid Chiefs don't know how to do.

Sorry to jump in like this but after seeing so many of these threads I just had to say something. I'm not sure whether is is better to have a bad fire department or no fire department.

I understand where you are coming from.. but, I wasn't posting this to bash/attack this department/people. I was simply wanting to show how everything that we do on the scene is watched, and how important it is to always remember safety. I'm sure (I hope) this department had other members wearing full PPE, etc. but that wasn't the picture that was posted in the paper. For all we know, these guys were out of sight either in the back or at the side of the house.. but one photographer got a picture of them, and it just so happened to be the one that went in the paper. This post was mainly just to highlight the imporatance of using the media to work for your image.. not against it. A picture like this in the paper could turn the public's perception (and surrounding departments perception) of a professional department sour. There is an important lesson behind posting this picture... not just the lack of PPE...

[firefightergtp]

Originally posted by t13one12
Fighting fire is like hunting...you can't let the enemy see you. (Hence the camo hat) It's an exterior attack guys, you aren't in any DANGER or anything. ;)

Good time for OSHA to read the paper...



This kind of practice has to stop, but will it?? I doubt it. The problem is you have your invisible members, u know, the ones who are alot tougher than everyone else, we all know them, and we all know they are capable of this kind of foolishness.

[NonSurfinCaFF]

Originally posted by FTMPTB15


I understand where you are coming from.. but, I wasn't posting this to bash/attack this department/people. I was simply wanting to show how everything that we do on the scene is watched, and how important it is to always remember safety.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to single you out, or slam others comments, its just when I see these kind of things it makes me mad that there are many places in the US that this is the best they can expect, some don't even have a FD that performs at this level, yet we continue to pour money into other parts of the world before taking care of our own. Off my soap box.

[FTMPTB15]

What's even more frustrating is those departments that have the equipment, which unfortunately not everyone can acquire (sp?), but choose not to use it... which is the case in this photo/post. The picture below is from a training burn.. if they'd only play like they practice they would've prevented major negative publicity.

[MacInnis]

The Fact is that several departments have it in the SOP / SOG for gear. But getting them to were it on a vollie department is sometimes hard. Today we had a car fire, something a garden hose can put out. I was the only one in gear other then a Jr

[SteveDude]

This is why we still kill 100 firefighters a year in this country.

That is true...but look at the global condemantions these photos have caused on this forum and on the others....no one is supporting what went on at this job. And who are you? You are the US Fire Service and the condemnation on here shows why that 100 each year will begin to drop and why (Tragic unavoidable accident aside) no one here will ever become one of those Statistics.

We went through the same thing 50/60 years ago...after the Blitz, the firemen who survived that thought they were bomb proof. Nothing ever again could throw at them what the Blitz did. Then after many many silly unavoidable Deaths the culture began to change, and the UK reduced Ff Fatalities down to about 1 per year by the late 90's...(However cutbacks and an explosion of fires/arson in the past few years is seeing this trend go up again!!!)

[dmleblanc]

Fighting fire is like hunting...you can't let the enemy see you.

...like photographers.....:rolleyes:

[WVFF20]

http://images.ofoto.com/photos1064/2/81/37/15/50/9/950153781203_0_ALB.jpg

kind of like these fools?

[captstanm1]

I am thinking that it is not really smoke, but steam from a crack in the window of a steam room! Therefore....perhaps they don't need PPE! :rolleyes:

[SamsonFCDES]

This has been mentioned before.

One of the factors that contribute to the high number of LODDs is that we are counting things as LODDs that would have never been coutned before.

Going home after a fire and haveing a heart attack or car crash, etc...

There seem to be far less fire ground deaths and I do belive IIRC there are less injuries with the new PPE standards.

People still will manage to have heart attacks, car crashes, and freak accidents though. Like falling off a fire truck at a parade, etc...

It realy POs me to see even the most poorly trained VFDs going to battle without proper PPE. That should be a no brainger even if you dont know which end the water comes out of the hose.

Yes a VFD can be on the same level as a good paid department, but as was mentioned that is not easy. People these days are finding less and less time to devote to such things as volunteering for a FD. There is absolutly no way the entire nation could be a paid fire service, but that is the only way to realy enforce performance standards.

A more realistic approach would be the give a major boost to the training service nation wide. Get more trainers out to these folks and SHOW THEM a better way. Complain about it all you want, the reality is that a lot of places in the US do not have access to adequate training resources.

On the equipment issues, same thing. If the nation realy cared about this stuff, if the nation realy wanted a high level of fire services, then there would be no 50 year old apparatus or lack of PPE.

The problem is I dont belive that Joe Citizen gives a crap. :(

[FFTrainer]

First thing first.... sexauer...

I'm sure i'll catch flack for saying this...but..... volunteer department...you get what you pay for.

take your 9 posts and a long hike if that's the best you can offer. As with the million other vol/career pissing matches, there's no place for it. Fire kills firefighters regardless of whether or not you collect a paycheck and STUPID fireground activity like what is portrayed in the attached photo only helps to increase the potential of injury or death.

The sad part here is that although this is only one incident and one picture, combine it with all of the ones posted on firefighterclosecalls.com and the number of occurances of this type of behavior is astounding.

About the only thing positive I can come up with in this picture is that their gear(those who are actually wearing it) doesn't have their FD name on it.

As with most anything else in the fire service, the only corrective action to this scenario will probably be a reactive one AFTER someone gets hurt or god forbid killed(or if OSHA does get a hold of the pic and show up for a visit)! We continue to operate as a reactive agency rather that a pro-active one. We give millions upon millions to fire fighting vehicles and equipment but scrounge for pennies when it comes to Fire Prevention activities.

I guess it's the same old story that we all know, but its monday morning and this one forced me up on my soapbox.

Stay Safe!

[jasper45]

Take this statement as a fact, I am not condoning the events portrayed in this picture one bit.
Now having said that, anybody who has ever been to a fire scene knows that at any given time your department is not operating 100% safe. You say that you are and I'll call you a liar. There is absolutely no way any department follows 100% of any NFPA standard, OSHA law, or any alphabet organization who writes laws and guidelines. It's just plain impossible to have happen.
There are too many variables on a fireground, too many sudden changes in whatever scenario you could imagine.
Please don't take this post as my defending of the 'camo' hat over helmet depiction.

[FFTrainer]

Jasper -

I started to type something similar, but my post was getting too long.

I would agree that we do the best we can with what we have, but the big things need to be addressed. The picture in question....

No gloves
No helmet (the camo hat is nice and all, but....)
No SCBA
No gear on half those in the picture

You are correct though on the 100% compliance, 100% of the time. Simplest thing of how many guys where their seatbelts en-route to a job? In some ways we are like eternal teenagers we continue to feel we are invicible(no offense to you teens out there since it doesn't mean all of you!)

[NonSurfinCaFF]

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
Yes a VFD can be on the same level as a good paid department, but as was mentioned that is not easy. People these days are finding less and less time to devote to such things as volunteering for a FD. There is absolutly no way the entire nation could be a paid fire service, but that is the only way to realy enforce performance standards.

A more realistic approach would be the give a major boost to the training service nation wide. Get more trainers out to these folks and SHOW THEM a better way. Complain about it all you want, the reality is that a lot of places in the US do not have access to adequate training resources.

On the equipment issues, same thing. If the nation realy cared about this stuff, if the nation realy wanted a high level of fire services, then there would be no 50 year old apparatus or lack of PPE.

The problem is I dont belive that Joe Citizen gives a crap. :(

Exactly, in 1998 FEMA spent $36,000,000 to send prepositioned firefighting units to Texas because of drought conditions, these forces provided initial attack on wildland fires because most of the Texas fire service just didn't have the experience or training for the severity of the fires occuring. Now that is fine since it seems to have prevented Texas from burning like Florida had earlier in the year but I just look at how much money they spent and think what could they have accomplished if that money had gone for brush gear and training for Texas's many Volunteer and small fire departments, maybe I wouldn't have seen some of the ancient brush trucks and firefighters in turnout pants and t-shirts out on the line. Like you said, I don't think the public really cares about how good the fire department is until they call and then its too late.

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by NonSurfinCaFF


Exactly, in 1998 FEMA spent $36,000,000 to send prepositioned firefighting units to Texas because of drought conditions, these forces provided initial attack on wildland fires because most of the Texas fire service just didn't have the experience or training for the severity of the fires occuring. Now that is fine since it seems to have prevented Texas from burning like Florida had earlier in the year but I just look at how much money they spent and think what could they have accomplished if that money had gone for brush gear and training for Texas's many Volunteer and small fire departments, maybe I wouldn't have seen some of the ancient brush trucks and firefighters in turnout pants and t-shirts out on the line. Like you said, I don't think the public really cares about how good the fire department is until they call and then its too late.

Right on.

At the risk of going a bit OT.

Similar example. Last year 76 milion was spent in Montana durning the wildland fire season to fight wildfires. This year, with record drought looming, the Governor has asked to set aside 80 million dollars for the widlfires season.

:rolleyes:

That is so bass ackwards its INSANE!!! It is a completely reactive approach, not a proactive approach by any means.

Lets just say that MT can expect to blow 80 milion a year during each wildland fire season. This is likely given the WEAK IA capabilities in many areas. Some areas are only protected by small VFDs operating 50's vintage 6x6s and wearing cotton work coveralls for PPE.

Now they have a fire bust, say 7-8 lighting caused wildfires spread out. They have 2 6x6 and 10 guys.

:eek:

Guess what, you are going to loose some of those fires.

Guess what, those fires are going to get BIG BIG BIG.

Guess what, you just spent multiple milions of dollars to bring them back under control. In the process you probly burned up a lot of houses, damaged power lines, used up precious water resoucres, and maybe even gotten somebody Killed!

ITS BULLS**T!!!

If they would take that 80 milion a year, spend 60-70 milion a year boosting IA capabilities and training then they would prevent a lot of those big fires. Preventing big fires saves mega mega bucks!!! The 10-20 milion you have left over form the INVESTMENT in you IA crews at the local level should in most years cover you big fire bills. Like your TX example, but as you said, do it at the local level and then you have something that is going to last. Something that is going to be there NEXT TIME, and there will be a next time.

Its not rocket surgery.

Added benefits are that the local communities have a beter equiped FD with better equipment that serves them all year round!!! Not just in the wildland fires seaon.

And dont even get me started on private contractor fire suppression services. These guys have found out how to work the system and realy take the tax payers for a ride. :mad:

I should start a new topic on this, I can vent for pages about this ridiculous situation our politicians and government managers have gotten out nation into!!! If it wasnt such a clustered up mess it would almost be comical!!!

[Rebekkerz]

Even when you think no ones looking:
YOU NEED TO BE CONSIOUS OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

We are always being watched. On calls, off calls, any where we go.
Besides on scenes dont forget the hats, shirts, and jackets most of us have that say who we are and who were affiliated with. Seen people in action forget about that. Landed them in big trouble.

Yah some of there gear doesn't look up to code (sorry sarcasm)

[engine1321]

Graham County, we save foundations.

[WVFF20]

Sorry, I couldn't resist, "Rocket Surgery"?

[FTMPTB15]

Originally posted by WVFF20
Sorry, I couldn't resist, "Rocket Surgery"?

It's a new combo.. Rocket Science and Brain Surgery

Rocket Surgery and Brain Science

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by WVFF20
Sorry, I couldn't resist, "Rocket Surgery"?

It a variation of the old "Its not Rocket Science" saying that I use. Sort of a hybrid between "Its not Brain Surgery" and "Its not Rocket Science." A remix if you will.

I also use:

"Does the Pope Poop in the woods?"

"Is a Bear Catholic?"

etc...

I like to change things up a bit to make people wonder WTF...

:D

[FFTrainer]

I like to change things up a bit to make people wonder WTF...

I've come to the conclusion in these forums that it is no longer safe to wonder that.... the answer/justification might hit you so unexpededly that your grandkids fall down. :D

On a different note, would you use a torch for rocket surgery and more importantly would you be wearing a camo hat for safety?

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by FFTrainer


I've come to the conclusion in these forums that it is no longer safe to wonder that.... the answer/justification might hit you so unexpededly that your grandkids fall down. :D

On a different note, would you use a torch for rocket surgery and more importantly would you be wearing a camo hat for safety?

Yes, a torch for sure, not sure on the cammo...Just watch the HIPA regs though!!!!

:D

[lutan1]

I'm sure i'll catch flack for saying this...but.....
volunteer department...you get what you pay for.

No it's not! Some of the worst offenders I've seen over here in Oz for not wearing the correct PPE, is the perms. (Probably due to complacency)

At the end of the day, it comes down to training and understanding....

[NonSurfinCaFF]

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES


Right on.

At the risk of going a bit OT.

Too late, I think we've already done that :o

Originally posted by SamsonFCDES


If they would take that 80 milion a year, spend 60-70 milion a year boosting IA capabilities and training then they would prevent a lot of those big fires. Preventing big fires saves mega mega bucks!!! The 10-20 milion you have left over form the [b]INVESTMENT in you IA crews at the local level should in most years cover you big fire bills. Like your TX example, but as you said, do it at the local level and then you have something that is going to last. Something that is going to be there NEXT TIME, and there will be a next time.


That was exactly my thought, all that money was going for a one shot deal for all of us to sit around waiting for a big fire that we then hammered into a little black spot before it could get going. There were a number of people who wanted to take the opportunity to go around to the local VFD's and teach basic wildland classes, but no one in a position to make it happen seemed to be interested in arranging it. It was an amazing opportunity that was thrown away, we had hundreds of firefighters from California, Arizona and many other places in the west that see alot of wildland fire every year, but except for a handful of visits to schools by Smokey and a few media pieces nothing was done with all that experience. But hey, I got to see some of Texas's tourist spots so it wasn't all a waste :D

[Bones42]

Ya know, if you check these forums for the last month or so, you'll see a bunch of posts by a CAFS "advocate". In almost every picture, the guys are not wearing their PPE. When called on it, he claims you don't need to since the CAFS is so "wonderful". Maybe these guys were using CAFS so it's Ok. :rolleyes:

[FFTrainer]

Maybe our favorite whacker sticker should be changed from fear to gear

[spearsm]

O.k. hows this, FFtrainer?

[FFTrainer]

How's this? It's blank that's how it is.... did you think you were in that erase thread again?!?!?:D :rolleyes:

[RyanEMVFD]

Oh, look! It's just another bad photo representing the entire US fire service! :(

[spearsm]

Well now CRAP! The ol`puter did one of those lunge-buck-snap- routines and I was confident that nothing made it through...oops.

It should be noted that I just filled your request...that was all.

Continue, my friends....

**edited for grammer, or what I know of it :D **