Firefighter Who Quit Recalls His First Callout

[MalahatTwo7]

Firefighter who quit recalls his first callout

Cindy E. Harnett Times Colonist February 25, 2005

Michael Wilson chokes up as he recalls the hope he saw in the eyes of woman, mangled in a head-on car crash, the first time he jumped into his coveralls and reported for duty as a Malahat volunteer firefighter.

"Her car had crumpled around her," said Wilson, a heavy-duty mechanic and single father. The accident occurred at an area called Split Rock along the Malahat Drive -- a winding road through the mountains where several gruesome car accidents and fatalities have occurred.

"Her pelvis was broken, her ankles were broken, her knee was broken and she was in an extreme amount of pain. It took everything we had to work on that one car."

One volunteer had to ride in the ambulance to hold her pelvis together. Wilson searched the other car for the other victim's severed finger, found in her boot.

Wilson is among 17 of 21 Malahat volunteer firefighters who resigned Feb. 4 in a dispute with the Cowichan Valley Regional District, which wanted to have one company provide blanket coverage for all six regional departments. The change would see the Malahat volunteers' life insurance reduced to $100,000 from $150,000.

On Thursday in a meeting that lasted about seven minutes, the board decided the insurance package it had chosen was "very balanced and equitable and unsurpassed in the region," said CVRD administrator Frank Raimondo.

The board will have the insurance reviewed with an independent party before the end of 2005 to see if there are any other issues to be considered.

The CVRD has accepted the firefighters' resignations, and if they want to return, they may reapply but will lose all seniority, said Raimondo.

The regional district said it has moved on, and the Malahat department has a new chief -- former deputy chief Dave Balding -- and has 11 firefighters ready to respond to emergencies, said Raimondo.

The average experience of the former staff was 3.5 years and of the new staff is 3.6 years, Raimondo said.

With training over the next month, the department will no longer need the automatic backup -- known as mutual aid -- of three surrounding forces.

That doesn't tell the whole story, Wilson said.

Several of the firefighters, who walked off the job because they thought as volunteers they at least deserved a healthy life insurance package for their families, worked for the force for seven, 11 and 17 years, he said. Many won recognition for heroic service during a propane tanker accident a few years ago.

The job wasn't something they had to do, he said. It was something they wanted to do after they looked into the eyes of a victim they knew they could help.

"I did it because I held a woman's hand in a really bad car accident and I know I gave her comfort and I know people are alive because of what I've done in the last seven months."

The former firefighters planned to meet to talk about their next step. Some may go back.

Not Wilson. "My volunteering spirit has been kicked out of me," he said. "I know a lot of guys feel like that."

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2005

[EFD840]

Malahat, I know you can't talk too much because this is your department but there's a question that has been bugging me since you first posted about his situation.

Do you guys control your local funds? If so, did you look into supplemental policies to make up the difference in insurance coverage?

[MalahatTwo7]

I can answer that one:

Yes, the suggestion was put forward to the Board from the Delegation. At this time it is "under review". Thats all I know as of last night's practice.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Does the Province or the Canadian Government pony up any money at all when there is a LODD? I couldn't help but notice that they have cancelled the automatic aid. Thats a shame. The best way to keep your people safe is to insure there is proper manning and equipment on a fire scene. 11 volunteers dosent cut it. Getting extra manpower, equipment and WATER through automatic aid is not a new concept. We do it here and we are paid. You can always turn them around if unneeded. Not a slam,but an observation. 11 may be ok most of the time. But when do you ever get EVERYONE responding at the same time?

[Dave404]

Tough 27 - Question, why wasnt there 100% support throughout the department? Something like this should be worth looking at seriously if I was town managment! Politicians - they dont get it until your cutting them out of their car or saving them or their loved ones!
Stay strong!

[firefighter26]

As one of the now EX Malahat firefighters, I guess I could add my opinion/story. However, I will point out that it is my opinion only and hopefully we can keep this thread civilized.

-----------------------------------

February 4th was a sad day for me. Shortly after 5:10pm PST I put my radio on the table and took my fire department key off my keychain. It was a tough thing to do, something that I never thought I would have to do; but I did it.

I didn’t want to resign from the fire department. I spent thousands of hours at the hall (or station), writing reports, updating maps, completed inspections, helped with training, washing trucks and gear, even painting and dry walling! I probably spent more time there than I did at home some weeks. I didn’t want to give it up, just as I am sure no one reading this would willingly give up their department.

But I couldn’t sit there and do nothing while the CVRD reduced our insurance coverage.
I am single.
I have no children.
If I where killed or injured in the line of duty my parents would receive my benefits (I am sure they would throw one rock'n part with it though ;))
However, when I looked around the room and seen my fellow firefighters, guys that I had trained, guys who trained me, people that where my family; firefighters, all of whom had children and families of their own, all of which I knew by name. Some guys having families with three children all under the age of 10, I knew that if they where killed or injured in the line of duty and their families didn’t receive as much as they should of because I didn’t make a stand with them, then I know I couldn’t live with myself.

I resigned because my families; both my biological family and firefighter family and their families shouldn’t be forced to live with less if I, or anyone one of my fellow firefighters, are killed in the line of duty.

The insurance policy that was in place wasn't by far spectacular, but at least it was something. We don’t get paid anything or receive any bonuses for being a firefighter, but I knew that at least if I was killed or injured while volunteering that my family would at least be looked after; and the CVRD was taking that away from me, and them.

Here is a look at the differences in policies.

Injury or Death from an Injury
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Illness due to Occupational Incident resulting in Death
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

HIV Positive due to Occupational Incident
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Bereavement Benefit
Malahat Policy $10,000
CVRD Policy $7,000

Seat belt Benefit
Malahat Policy $30,000
CVRD Policy $10,000

Dismemberment, Loss of Speech or Hearing
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Paralysis, Quadriplegia, Paraplegia, Hemiplegia
Malahat Policy $300,000
CVRD Policy $200,000

Vision Impairment
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Cosmetic Disfigurement from Burns
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Permanent Physical Impairment
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

The Malahat Policy DOES cover sports injuries and pre-existing conditions, whereas the CVRD policy does not.

There are more differences, but the list is a few pages long. These are just some of the highlights.

Also, the Malahat Policy is endorsed by the:
British Columbia Volunteer Fire Fighters Association
Vancouver Island Fire Fighters Association

The CVRD policy is not, and according to recent research, has a history of denied claims.

The difference in price between the CVRD policy and the previous Malahat policy works out to $35.00 per firefighter, per year. The department offered to pay for the difference, but was rejected. Members of the public, some of them not evening living in the Malahat Fire District, offered to pay the entire difference after they heard what was happening. The CVRD will not consider it.

-----------------------------------

I personally spoke as a delegation in front of the CVRD Protective Services Committee last week.

I presented them with what we all thought to be a win/win/win situation.

I proposed:
~ That the CVRD agreed to allow the fire department to increase its insurance coverage in addition to the basic CVRD policy to meet the levels of the previous Malahat policy. (in the original CVRD paperwork they said that each department could purchase insurance upgrades and it would not effect the basic coverage price to the other five departments)
~ That the CVRD re-instate all those that resigned.
~ That the CVRD agree to form a committee within the next eight months to evaluate the process leading to the resignation of the Malahat Firefighters, not to lay blame, but to form new policies and procedures to promote positive change.


Yesterday, Thursday, February 24, 2005, the CVRD announced it decision after week of meetings closed to the public.

~ The Malahat Fire Department will be covered by the basic CVRD policy and no upgrade package will be approved.
~ Any firefighters wishing to return to the department can do so based on merit and after their applications have been reviewed; consequently they will lose all seniority.
~ That an independent review will be conducted at the end of 2005 and prior to purchasing the 2006 policy.

For the record, those of that resigned represent nearly 70 years of accumulated fire service experience, which according my math works to a little more than 4 years per member (on average), though some of us having as many as 11 and 17 years individually. Beyond fire service experience, a number of the guys each have 15-20+ years as heavy equipment operators and heavy diesel mechanics; relative experience, that in my opinion, can’t be replaced by housewives who have thumbed through the IFSTA manual for a few hours.

-----------------------------------

I will see what I can do about getting the time line posted here, including some excerpts from various memos, faxes, and e-mails.

In the meantime, if anyone has any questions or thoughts, the former firefighters have set up an e-mail address:

supportmvfd@shaw.ca

Words of encouragement and letters of support are always greatly appreciated. In fact, if anyone has any ideas or avenues that might help, feel free to send them along as well. We have been getting great support from the media and 100% backing of the public we have talked to, but can’t seem to get the point across to any politicians.

Jason Dixon
Elected representative of the Former Malahat Firefighters
Former Firefighter
Former Acting LT.
Former SCBA Officer
Former First Responder
Former Recruiting Officer
Former Assistant Equipment Officer
Former member of the Malahat Auto Ex Team
Former Chair of the New Rescue Purchasing Committee
Formerly of the Malahat Fire Department
(I just realized that I have a lot of free time on my hands now!)

[PFire23]

Originally posted by firefighter26
As one of the now EX Malahat firefighters, I guess I could add my opinion/story. However, I will point out that it is my opinion only and hopefully we can keep this thread civilized.

-----------------------------------

February 4th was a sad day for me. Shortly after 5:10pm PST I put my radio on the table and took my fire department key off my keychain. It was a tough thing to do, something that I never thought I would have to do; but I did it.

I didn’t want to resign from the fire department. I spent thousands of hours at the hall (or station), writing reports, updating maps, completed inspections, helped with training, washing trucks and gear, even painting and dry walling! I probably spent more time there than I did at home some weeks. I didn’t want to give it up, just as I am sure no one reading this would willingly give up their department.

But I couldn’t sit there and do nothing while the CVRD reduced our insurance coverage.
I am single.
I have no children.
If I where killed or injured in the line of duty my parents would receive my benefits (I am sure they would throw one rock'n part with it though ;))
However, when I looked around the room and seen my fellow firefighters, guys that I had trained, guys who trained me, people that where my family; firefighters, all of whom had children and families of their own, all of which I knew by name. Some guys having families with three children all under the age of 10, I knew that if they where killed or injured in the line of duty and their families didn’t receive as much as they should of because I didn’t make a stand with them, then I know I couldn’t live with myself.

I resigned because my families; both my biological family and firefighter family and their families shouldn’t be forced to live with less if I, or anyone one of my fellow firefighters, are killed in the line of duty.

The insurance policy that was in place wasn't by far spectacular, but at least it was something. We don’t get paid anything or receive any bonuses for being a firefighter, but I knew that at least if I was killed or injured while volunteering that my family would at least be looked after; and the CVRD was taking that away from me, and them.

Here is a look at the differences in policies.

Injury or Death from an Injury
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Illness due to Occupational Incident resulting in Death
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

HIV Positive due to Occupational Incident
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Bereavement Benefit
Malahat Policy $10,000
CVRD Policy $7,000

Seat belt Benefit
Malahat Policy $30,000
CVRD Policy $10,000

Dismemberment, Loss of Speech or Hearing
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Paralysis, Quadriplegia, Paraplegia, Hemiplegia
Malahat Policy $300,000
CVRD Policy $200,000

Vision Impairment
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Cosmetic Disfigurement from Burns
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

Permanent Physical Impairment
Malahat Policy $150,000
CVRD Policy $100,000

The Malahat Policy DOES cover sports injuries and pre-existing conditions, whereas the CVRD policy does not.

There are more differences, but the list is a few pages long. These are just some of the highlights.

Also, the Malahat Policy is endorsed by the:
British Columbia Volunteer Fire Fighters Association
Vancouver Island Fire Fighters Association

The CVRD policy is not, and according to recent research, has a history of denied claims.

The difference in price between the CVRD policy and the previous Malahat policy works out to $35.00 per firefighter, per year. The department offered to pay for the difference, but was rejected. Members of the public, some of them not evening living in the Malahat Fire District, offered to pay the entire difference after they heard what was happening. The CVRD will not consider it.

-----------------------------------

I personally spoke as a delegation in front of the CVRD Protective Services Committee last week.

I presented them with what we all thought to be a win/win/win situation.

I proposed:
~ That the CVRD agreed to allow the fire department to increase its insurance coverage in addition to the basic CVRD policy to meet the levels of the previous Malahat policy. (in the original CVRD paperwork they said that each department could purchase insurance upgrades and it would not effect the basic coverage price to the other five departments)
~ That the CVRD re-instate all those that resigned.
~ That the CVRD agree to form a committee within the next eight months to evaluate the process leading to the resignation of the Malahat Firefighters, not to lay blame, but to form new policies and procedures to promote positive change.


Yesterday, Thursday, February 24, 2005, the CVRD announced it decision after week of meetings closed to the public.

~ The Malahat Fire Department will be covered by the basic CVRD policy and no upgrade package will be approved.
~ Any firefighters wishing to return to the department can do so based on merit and after their applications have been reviewed; consequently they will lose all seniority.
~ That an independent review will be conducted at the end of 2005 and prior to purchasing the 2006 policy.

For the record, those of that resigned represent nearly 70 years of accumulated fire service experience, which according my math works to a little more than 4 years per member (on average), though some of us having as many as 11 and 17 years individually. Beyond fire service experience, a number of the guys each have 15-20+ years as heavy equipment operators and heavy diesel mechanics; relative experience, that in my opinion, can’t be replaced by housewives who have thumbed through the IFSTA manual for a few hours.

If your "housewife" members have merely "thumbed" through the IFSTA manual for a few hours doesn't that say something negative about the training standards within your department. Not everyone comes in with vast mechanical knowledge, but it is however something that can be learned. Of course we all know that reading the IFSTA manual cover to cover 4-5 times does not an expert make.:D Not to mention that the housewife member on that dept busts her ass to do the job and gives 100%, but she also stuck it out. I give her kudos for that.

-----------------------------------

I will see what I can do about getting the time line posted here, including some excerpts from various memos, faxes, and e-mails.

Be careful that you aren't breaching FOIP or any gag orders that have been implemented, that would be a nasty fine to have to cough up

In the meantime, if anyone has any questions or thoughts, the former firefighters have set up an e-mail address:

supportmvfd@shaw.ca

Words of encouragement and letters of support are always greatly appreciated. In fact, if anyone has any ideas or avenues that might help, feel free to send them along as well. We have been getting great support from the media and 100% backing of the public we have talked to, but can’t seem to get the point across to any politicians.

Jason Dixon
Elected representative of the Former Malahat Firefighters
Former Firefighter
Former Acting LT.
Former SCBA Officer
Former First Responder
Former Recruiting Officer
Former Assistant Equipment Officer
Former member of the Malahat Auto Ex Team
Former Chair of the New Rescue Purchasing Committee
Formerly of the Malahat Fire Department
(I just realized that I have a lot of free time on my hands now!)

It's most unfortunate that the remaining firefighters and those who have since joined can't give their side of the story. We are stuck with this side and what the news prints and we all know how accurately the media portrays things. Maybe in the future we'll be able to hear all sides.

[MalahatTwo7]

Mikey, I need to clarify something that may be a bit misleading in the news release regarding Mutual Aid. Currently we are on automatic mutual aid from any of the three surrounding depts according to incident location etc. What they are getting at in the press release is that it is expected that in a fairly short time we will be able to "stand alone" without the automatic MA response, and revert to "normal operations". Not that they were going to "cancel" our MA agreements - that was not the intent of the message.

I hope there is not too much confusion on that one - ya know how the press tend to mis-quote or take Artistic Licence sometimes.

Dave: as for 100% support - I am not sure of what direction you are stating that, but my 100% support is and always has been towards my community and those who live and travel through the district. Which is why in spite of what my personal thoughts may be, (which I withold) I am still an active member. My primary function in life is to keep the "world peace" as a professional soldier, but I can do my bit locally here at home too. What's the phrase? Think Globally, act Locally? Oh wait, thats for recycling LOL.

[firefighter26]

Originally posted by PFire23
Not everyone comes in with vast mechanical knowledge, but it is however something that can be learned.

I would tend to disagree. Mechanical knowledge is something not everyone can learn. A rookie firefighter with previous mechanical knowledge is easier not only easier to train, but becomes more dependable and effective sooner in their career.

To show someone a chainsaw and show them how it works and how to operate it is one thing, but to have someone who can basically field strip it in the middle of a call and fix it if it breaks is something else; and would take years upon years to teach to someone who only ever had a basic understating of the tool to begin with.

I am not saying that a housewife can't be taught to do it, just that it takes additional time to teach them the basics before moving on to the advanced. Someone who is already beyond basic tool operations with more effective with less hours of training.

Originally posted by PFire23
Of course we all know that reading the IFSTA manual cover to cover 4-5 times does not an expert make.

This is something I can agree with. I think we have all seen rookie firefighters who, lets say, pass the SCBA and ground ladders written tests with flying colours, but when it actually comes down to physically donning a BA and climbing a ladder, they can't do it.

Originally posted by PFire23
We are stuck with this side (of the story).

My opinion is my opinion, just as everyone else has the right to post theirs, even you. However, my opinion was formed becuase I was there and seen what was happening first hand. Yes, it might not make it the correct opinion, but it is still an opinion.

[PFire23]

Originally posted by firefighter26


I would tend to disagree. Mechanical knowledge is something not everyone can learn. A rookie firefighter with previous mechanical knowledge is easier not only easier to train, but becomes more dependable and effective sooner in their career.

To show someone a chainsaw and show them how it works and how to operate it is one thing, but to have someone who can basically field strip it in the middle of a call and fix it if it breaks is something else; and would take years upon years to teach to someone who only ever had a basic understating of the tool to begin with.

I am not saying that a housewife can't be taught to do it, just that it takes additional time to teach them the basics before moving on to the advanced. Someone who is already beyond basic tool operations with more effective with less hours of training.



This is something I can agree with. I think we have all seen rookie firefighters who, lets say, pass the SCBA and ground ladders written tests with flying colours, but when it actually comes down to physically donning a BA and climbing a ladder, they can't do it.



My opinion is my opinion, just as everyone else has the right to post theirs, even you. However, my opinion was formed becuase I was there and seen what was happening first hand. Yes, it might not make it the correct opinion, but it is still an opinion.

Opinions are fine, but when you have a situation of this magnitude there are always 3 sides to a story, your side, their side and the truth. Sometimes, the truth gets lost in the shuffle.

As for the physically donning an SCBA and going up a ladder, perhaps the person to whom you are referring didn't have a problem with the SCBA, but with the balance shift of having one on while on a ladder. Perhaps, the person to whom you are referring had a minor fear of getting back onto a ladder from a roof and needed a bit of extra time and training to get past that. Were you an officer in the dept? I'm willing to bet that the person in question let the officer's know of this problem.

[MalahatTwo7]

The Cowichan Valley Regional District isn't backing away from its blanket insurance policy for its six fire departments, despite the concerns of Malahat firefighters who walked off the job earlier this month.

The CVRD called a press conference Thursday to announce it would be making no changes.

"The insurance plan as in place right now will remain in place for 2005," said administrator Frank Raimondo, who spoke on behalf of the CVRD accompanied by chairwoman Mary Marcotte and Mill Bay/Malahat director Mike Walker.

The CVRD made the decision to implement an insurance policy for the six departments under its management, after a review discovered two small halls carried no insurance.

The decision became controversial when Malahat firefighters complained the new insurance offered less coverage than the plan they'd previously held. Eighteen firefighters walked off the job to protest, although several later returned.

"When the firefighters decided to leave their posts, we ceased discussion," Raimondo said. "There was nothing to discuss. The board was faced with a position they found untenable. The board was faced with a group of people who decided to disassociate themselves and abandon the community."

Raimondo admits the CVRD's plan offers less coverage in the case of the death of a firefighter, by $50,000. But he said the plan is equal or superior in other aspects, not only to the Malahat's previous plan, but to the insurance plans held by the non-CVRD fire departments within the Valley - including those that handle more calls than Malahat.

He said the Malahat is the only department that has official complaints on record about the issue.

Former Sahtlam fire chief Mike Lees has made complaints about the insurance in the media, but did not give enough notice to appear before the CVRD's protective services committee.

Before increasing the amount of insurance, there must be time for discussions because that could set a precedent affecting the non-CVRD halls such as Duncan and North Cowichan, Raimondo said. He said the insurance would be reviewed annually.

Malahat firefighters had proposed purchasing a top-up to bring their coverage to its previous level out of the hall's budget. Raimondo said the plan does not allow for topping up, but firefighters can purchase additional insurance on their own if they want.

Malahat firefighters however maintain a CVRD memo from protective services manager Dan Derby stating the insurer can provide "enhanced packages" means they should be able to top up.

Jason Dixon, the spokesman for the former Malahat firefighters, said it will be up to the individual firefighters if they will return to the department, but he personally won't go back.

"I'm in shock, because they won't even consider upgrading our insurance," he said. "At this point I'm not going back because they way they've treated us is very disrespectful. They don't know what it's like to be a firefighter. They shouldn't be sitting in their plush offices making decisions about my insurance when I'm cutting a family out of a car."

Dixon said he's used all his holidays protesting the insurance issue, so he needs to take time to consider the next step.

The Malahat currently has a fire department of 12 members, including some who did not leave over the insurance, former members who returned to the department, and new recruits. They have an average of 3.6 years of service, better than the previous department's 3.5, Raimondo said.

The CVRD also officially appointed Dave Balding the department's chief, replacing Scott Wilson. Firefighters who quit can apply to rejoin, but won't be automatically granted their former positions.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Originally posted by firefighter26




To show someone a chainsaw and show them how it works and how to operate it is one thing, but to have someone who can basically field strip it in the middle of a call and fix it if it breaks is something else; and would take years upon years to teach to someone who only ever had a basic understating of the tool to begin with.











Exactly how many roofs have you opened in your vast experience? "Field stripping and repairing a saw on the scene" is great, but do you know what to do while this being done? I have followed the exploits of the MVFD for some time now. I know all too well the politics that are involved up there. I personally saw that "death trap/training aid" with my own eyes. When the member who voiced their concern and went way above and beyond, doing a well researched and reasoned explanation to why the "rocket" is so dangerous, that person was shunned and accused of being "afraid" . Well let me tell you , I have been a firefighter for nearly 24 years and go inside more burning buildings in a few months then you will in your entire fire service career, and I would never send a person into a death trap like that thing. I learned a long time ago that NO ONE in the fire service is that important that they cannot be replaced. The mass resignation accomplished none of your goals. Did you think they were going to beg you to come back ? Sorry if I sound mean or harsh, but I know of some real mean stuff pulled on my friend. Refute what you want but the truth hurts. I APPLAUD those members who stayed on. Maybe they will be able to get some of the benefits they lost back. But they will do it by working hard and not running away and quitting.

[MalahatTwo7]

Director suggests independent screening for fire hall applicants

By Jennifer Hourihan Mar 09 2005 News Leader

An independent third party should be brought in to evaluate re-applications to the Malahat Volunteer Fire Department, suggests Mill Bay Director Mike Walker.

With 11 of the firefighters who quit the hall in a dispute over insurance applying to rejoin, Walker said he's going to recommend an outsider review applicants to make sure resentments don't get in the way.

"The reason for that is to avoid future complaints of prejudice or bias or something along those lines," said Walker.

The 11 applications were turned in to the hall Thursday.
Jason Dixon, spokesman for the group of firefighters who quit their jobs, said all but a few of the group decided to return after discussing their options.

"We realized we'd gotten as far as we were going to get," he said. "We thought that if we were going to continue to fight, we might as well be firefighters while we do it. It was ripping the guys apart to not be there."

Eighteen of Malahat's 21 firefighters quit the department last month when the Cowichan Valley Regional District switched to a new insurance policy for the six fire halls under its umbrella. The Malahat firefighters said they would not work under the policy, which offered $50,000 less in benefits for accidental death.

After hearing from the firefighters, the CVRD board voted to keep the new insurance package, appointed a new fire chief, and said those who quit could re-apply but would not be automatically granted their old positions.

Dixon said what happened is now so well-known, firefighters won't accomplish anything further by staying away. "Our story has gathered so much steam, we can do the honourable thing and go back to protecting our community."

Dixon said firefighters still plan to keep up discussions with the CVRD about increasing the level of insurance, and may also consider purchasing additional coverage on their own.

Some of the 18 firefighters returned to their posts within a few days. Walker said he did not know if the new applications include the remainder of those who quit, or if there are still former firefighters staying away from the hall.

Until the re-applications are processed, the Malahat hall stands at 14 members. Walker said the hall has been responding to calls, with the assistance when needed of the neighbouring Mill Bay department.
"In the next couple of weeks we should be back up to strength and accepting all calls and the mutual aid can be cancelled," Walker said.

Dixon said he likes the idea of an independent review of re-applications, so long as the person selected is unbiased and the review doesn't unnecessarily delay the firefighters' return to duty.

© Copyright 2005 Duncan News Leader and Pictorial

[CaptainGonzo]

The 11 applications were turned in to the hall Thursday.
Jason Dixon, spokesman for the group of firefighters who quit their jobs, said all but a few of the group decided to return after discussing their options.

"We realized we'd gotten as far as we were going to get," he said. "We thought that if we were going to continue to fight, we might as well be firefighters while we do it. It was ripping the guys apart to not be there."

Eighteen of Malahat's 21 firefighters quit the department last month when the Cowichan Valley Regional District switched to a new insurance policy for the six fire halls under its umbrella. The Malahat firefighters said they would not work under the policy, which offered $50,000 less in benefits for accidental death.

After hearing from the firefighters, the CVRD board voted to keep the new insurance package, appointed a new fire chief, and said those who quit could re-apply but would not be automatically granted their old positions.

Dixon said what happened is now so well-known, firefighters won't accomplish anything further by staying away. "Our story has gathered so much steam, we can do the honourable thing and go back to protecting our community."

The "honourable" thing to do would have been to stay on the Department and try to work things out intead of throwing a kindergarten quality hissyfit.

[ToughJustice]

Okay, I find it hard to believe that people are creating such rash opinions based off of such a scarce representation of the facts. Please step-back and take a look at the entire situation rather than tip-toeing through the tulips thinking you know best.

I think that you said it best Pfire23 when you said:
We are stuck with this side and what the news prints and we all know how accurately the media portrays things. Maybe in the future we'll be able to hear all sides.

So as one of the former members of the MVFD I would like to post my side and I hope that you will all take it for what it's worth.

The members of the MVFD had numerous meetings during their practice nights through-out the time following the New Years on how to deal with this situation, those who actually did attend any of these practices would have known the exact probablems of this sitation, rather than hearing it through word of mouth. The Fire Chief only did what he was asked to by the members, since each in their own way asked him to do whatever he could to guide us through this situation where we were getting bent over.
Walking out of the MVFD that day was one of the hardest things that I've ever done...but has it been shared with you that this wasn't the first step of action that was taken by the members? Didn't think so, that'd be sharing all the facts wouldn't it.
The CVRD attempted to cancel the insurance plan that we held during this time on November 9th, 2004. They did this by writing a letter to our insurance company, who refused to cancel the insurance policy since it was in the MVFD's name not the CVRD's. We found out that our insurance policy was to be canceled when our insurance agent phoned to ask us what we found wrong with our policy...of course our answer to this was NOTHING. This policy was supposed to continue on until August of 2005.
An entire month later the CVRD held a meeting with the Chief tell us that they were going to cancel our current policies in order to allow for the new policies to come into effect on January 1st, 2005. They needed our Cheif's signature to cancel the policy and he down right refused inspite of many times being told he was jeopardizing his position, and I say cudos to him.
Now let's do the math here, the CVRD wanted the policy cancelled on November 8th, 2004 to have a new one come in place January 1st, 2005. This would have left the members uncovered for nearly two months without their knowing. Problem? I think so.

The CVRD continued to find different ways to cancel the policy without the need of the Chief, including hiring lawyers and such. During this time the members realized that they need to take action since it would only take so long that the insurance company would give up.
The members suggested that they keep their old policy in place until it ran out and during this period look into upgrading the new policy. To this the CVRD replied You cannot hold two policies at once without them cancelling each other out. This they claimed cam directly from the insurance company.
The members suggested that they upgrade the new policy to meet that of their old poicy as the CVRD said would be avaliable in a memo to the Chief. To this the CVRD replied This is unavaliable since it would cancel the savings that the Fire Departments recieved by buying in mass. clashing with what they had said previously.
The members proceeded to suggest that they buy a seperate insurancy policy with the money out of their own pockets...something that we haven't had to do in a few years.
The CVRD proceeded to ignore us, they would not listen to any of our suggestions, and further more they wouldn't even discuss any other options with us. It was like walking into a brick wall, a lying, cheating, government representation of a brick wall.

So since no one at the staff was willing to listen. The members each wrote their own personal letters to the Regional Director stating that we needed his help in this situation and to this he replied with us needing patience. Pfft.

So since no one wanted to listen to what we had to say the members decided to go on strike action. Doing only what was neccisary to the running of the Fire Department and nothing more. So in response to this the CVRD called a meeting with the Chief and our LT. the next night. During this meeting the CVRD continued to tell the Chief that us walking out was his fault, that us as member didn't care about our community, and that he needed to fix this. At this meeting the Chief resigned, something the administrator at CVRD has wanted for a long time. Shocking, they wanted to remove someone who stood up for themselves and fought for what was right.
Because of this the CVRD called a meeting with the members at the Fire Hall that night. Now figure this one out, they call the meeting as if it were a tone-out. Seriously, the pagers went beep-beep and the siren was blaring, and arriving at the Fire Department you realize there was no call but a meeting with CVRD Delegations...I don't care who you think you are that's wrong.
During this meeting they proceeded to tell us that we will be stuck with the lower coverage and that our Deputy will be our new Chief. Suck it up.
This was the Deputy who said that he supported everything that we've done. This is the Deputy who has now been put in for a two year term without following the proper policies and procedures that the CVRD had put in place themselves.
Please find me someone who can explain to me that this situation is perfectly okay and that we aren't getting jacked around at all.

So we took it above the head of the Staff at CVRD and took it to the Protective Services. We went as a deligation to propose all the same solutions to the problems and that we get re-enstated so that the Fire Department was at least functional. Unfortunatly through that ordeal we realized that even the lowest form of governement can be corrupt, and it looked the the protective services were eating out of the hands of the Staff.
But here's what the protective services did decide...that the members can purchase an additional insurance policy to upgrade the coverage to the same standard...isn't this what we had suggested before when they said To this the CVRD replied You cannot hold two policies at once without them cancelling each other out. This they claimed cam directly from the insurance company.

Further more now that we've decided that we've finally been heard and are willing to go back they decide that they're going to accept us upon merit. I hate to say it boys and girls but there isn't enough room for merit here anymore, you need a functioning hall so stop putting off what need to be done eventually and take some of us back. Because I as a resident within this fire protection district do not feel protected...this has nothing to do with any bad feelings held against those who are there...this has to do with the fact being in the hall before I know what standards need to be met, and they're not even close.

Now that you have a few more of the facts, answer me this: What kind of insurance coverage do you have? Are you paid or entirely volunteer?

[PFire23]

Here's a thought, instead of fighting over the $50,000 less on the death benefit. Why not fight for more funding for PROPER training facilities and better training opportunities for the Department members? Without proper training, and adequate facilities in which to train you are running a greater risk of death or injury than if you had them. What's a greater benefit? Something after you're dead and gone...... or something to help give you the tools to prevent that from happening or at least lessen the chances of it happening. Make the governing body accountable, they want you out there, they want to lower insurance so push to have better training standards implemented. Walking out solved NOTHING.

It seems to me that the policy that you were given isn't half bad for a volunteer department, what you were given was better than NO policy at all. Also, the policy that you originally had was better than most other departments, and was done privately and not through CVRD from what I understand. I can understand how they'd want to get the best deal for their dollar, they are a government agency after all and when you deal with the government the bottom line is always the almighty dollar.

And what of those that chose to remain on the department and NOT walk off........ what ramifications do you foresee should you all return to the department. Will you be able to get past the hard feelings? Will there be a sense of team and brotherhood, or will there be your side and their side? You can't function properly with a department torn. When I made my comment about which sides we'd heard from I was referring to the side of those who chose to stay and those who have since joined. Don't you find it odd that after the majority of the firefighters walked out there was an insurgence of new members, where were they before when recruiting drives were held?

[mcaldwell]

Jenn,

Please don't make sense of this all. You'll only muddy the issue. :D

[PFire23]

:D

[ToughJustice]

This actually has nothing to do with monetary value as far as I'm concerned...this is more to do with the fact that we've had this level of insurance for years, I'm sure that you would know that concidering you were a previous member of this hall. This is especially proven when you go back to the time that we had to pay this out of our own pockets or our canteen fund for those who needed it, as I'm sure you can understand.
The reason why we had a policy was because we took the incentive to get our own...so why are we being punished for the fact that two other department's administration found that it wasn't in their best interest to have insurance. There are plenty of ways that the CVRD could have gotten around this without stepping on our toes. For example rather than insisting that everyone have the same insurance insist that everyone must have insurance with a minimum standard, if you go above and beyond that's your choice. PROBLEM SOLVED
With the way that you are throwing accusations around you sound like you know what your talking about...but do you really?
You were not there so how can you say walking out solved nothing, like I pointed out, staying in solved nothing either they weren't listening. I loved doing what I was doing and helping people was my first priority but how can you risk your life to look after the community when there's the risk of having no one left to look after your family?
No matter what precautions that you take firefighting is never a safe profession, let along past time for those of us who don't get paid.
Really I think that this is what this thread is all about.

But since you brought it up, let's get onto the MVFD bashing.

Okay, so let's look at it this way, there are no hard feelings being held against any of the people who so decided to stay, matter-of-fact I stopped on my way home from work the other day to get a coffee from the recently opened coffee shop of one of the guys who did. You must understand that not everyone has a vendictive attitude seems like that maybe a personal issue of yours, not ours.
Please tell me what is wrong with any of the training that the MVFD does everyone who does it does it on their own accord, if there ever was any issues they did not have to participate, a right that has been thoroughly exercised in the past. Not to mention this "rocket" that I have seen in a few of your posts is the new Chief's favorite tool.
No matter who holds hard feelings, a Fire Department is never completly a whole...take a look at any of your own, you must have an out-cast, or someone you get along with less, yet when it comes down to it you always worked together under fire. There would be nothing heard of like not helping someone who's already carried a little girl through the bushes, out of jealousy or rebuke.
The people who left hold nothing against any of the people who rejoined or just joined. Matter of fact many of conversations have been held between "members of the two parties" if you will. But no matter what you say having a fire department with such a large ratio of newer, untrained members cannot function and since this is a volunteer hall, only so much time can be put into training, no matter who you are. And unfortunatly it would still take months for this training to be brought up to par.

[PFire23]

But since you brought it up, let's get onto the MVFD bashing

I don't believe I was bashing, I merely asked a few questions. I'm not that "out in the cold" I talk to people too, perhaps just not the same ones as you. Things were not as rosey after the walk out as you would like people to believe, 'nuff said.

Not to mention this "rocket" that I have seen in a few of your posts is the new Chief's favorite tool.

And he's STILL wrong to be using it. Would you agree that the "rocket" is an inverted grain hopper?

You must understand that not everyone has a vendictive attitude seems like that maybe a personal issue of yours, not ours

Tell that to someone who hasn't spoken to those who chose to stay. Furthermore, I am not vindictive in the least, quite frankly I feel sorry for your department.

Please tell me what is wrong with any of the training that the MVFD does everyone who does it does it on their own accord, if there ever was any issues they did not have to participate, a right that has been thoroughly exercised in the past.

I never said anything was wrong with the training, I said you could ask for a better training facility aka one that meets standard, and that you could ask for more training. I don't believe I said anything negative about your training.

There are plenty of ways that the CVRD could have gotten around this without stepping on our toes. For example rather than insisting that everyone have the same insurance insist that everyone must have insurance with a minimum standard, if you go above and beyond that's your choice. PROBLEM SOLVED

Very astute observation and one that I agree with, it easily could have been resolved but it wasn't. BOTH sides are guilty of mishandling the incident.




BTW, Welcome Back Sarah.

[ToughJustice]

My biggest issue with all of this is that there is no reason for anyone who has no idea of the situations within the MVFD to come and make their opions.

You may see it as a Kindergarden Hissy Fit but really, these are our lives on the line not yours. And unfortunatly no matter how hard you try your not going to get the opinions of the members who stayed and went back, really your not even getting one opinion, just posts of newspaper articles, and really how accurate is the media, you said so yourself.

Who said that everything was rosey after the walk out...I'm sure that it was far from, they were left with an inoperable department of three people and a large personel mess to clean up. It wasn't even rosey on the other side...support was hard to come by, not that people disagreed, but they were less motivated to state thier support.

The MVFD and their flaws seem to be a common theme in a few of your threads so really can you blame me for calling it a bashing? But will everything be fixed now that the former Chief is gone...will two wrongs make a right and everything will become perfect...doubt it.

The training prior to our leaving had no issues what-so-ever and please tell me what less than $30.00 per member can buy us in training. I can name only one person of the department who did not attend the different levels of the Live Fire Training, and that was because of personal injury. Please tell me how much better we can get than that. First Responder III through the JI amoungst other relevant courses. But a taste of what you may come across on the street will always aid in your sense of awareness.

As per the rocket.
Of course I can agree that it's an inverted grain hopper, cause that's exactly what it is. Frankly, I don't believe that the use of it is really all that wrong, as long as it is used within proper limits and with a level head.

Now on all of this I think that the last thing that this department needs is your pity or you feeling sorry for it, because that's not going to get it anywhere.

[PFire23]

As per the rocket.
Of course I can agree that it's an inverted grain hopper, cause that's exactly what it is. Frankly, I don't believe that the use of it is really all that wrong, as long as it is used within proper limits and with a level head.

Read the following definition of "confined space", THEN tell me whether or not the Malahat Fire Dept does confined space rescue, whether or not they are trained for that "technical" rescue ...... then tell me you still see nothing wrong with using that as your live burn training facility.

Confined Space: OSHA Regulation 29 CFR 1910.146 defines a confined space as a space that:

1. Is large enough and so configured that an employee can bodily enter and perform assigned work; and

2. Has limited or restricted means for entry or exit (example, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, and pits that may have limited means of entry); and

3. Is not designed for continuous employee occupancy.

All three (3) parameters, of the above definition, must be met for a space to be classified as a Confined Space.

http://www.lwfd.org/TRT/ConfinedSpaceRescueSOG.asp#DEF INITION:

[firefighter26]

Originally posted by PFire23
Confined Space: OSHA Regulation 29 CFR 1910.146 defines a confined space as a space that:

1. Is large enough and so configured that an employee can bodily enter and perform assigned work; and

2. Has limited or restricted means for entry or exit (example, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, and pits that may have limited means of entry); and

3. Is not designed for continuous employee occupancy.

All three (3) parameters, of the above definition, must be met for a space to be classified as a Confined Space.

http://www.lwfd.org/TRT/ConfinedSpaceRescueSOG.asp#DEF INITION:[/B]

According to OSHA my car is a confined space, yet I still drive it to work every day.

As per the "rocket" being our "live burn training facility," it isn't. There is a facility in Nanaimo that firefighters are sent to for taking Live Fire 101 and 201.

Further more, it was a rare day in which more than TWO pallets are ever used in there (the rocket), and the fire (what little is in there) is knocked down from the exterior prior to entry. How much fire? I have knocked it down with nothing more than residual line pressure.

Fire in the second half isn't much bigger and I have seen campfires with bigger flames. Hell, I have seen fire extinguisher pan fires that where bigger on fire prevention day at other departments!

Not to mention that WHENEVER it is used there is a second, fully turned out RIT in position with their own charged line, smoked up and ready to go.

[CaptainGonzo]

Tough Justice...

My observation was the first I have posted. I know via this wonderful invention called the internet a few Malahat firefighters.

There have been issues that I was asked my opinion on, such as training issues and the "rocket", including a conversation with a Malahat firefighter who stated that diesel fuel was used along with the pallets to "get the going". This was shortly after the Lairdsville tragedy.

A member of your department came up with a power point/slide show presentation showing the inadequacies and the dangers of using the "rocket" and came up with a solution that the entire district could have shared, used to train together with the NFPA 1403 guidelines and even defray expenses.

Since it wasn't the idea of the Chief of Department and/or his advisors (conincidentally, most of which are comprised of family family members), it was ignored.

Safety issues... such improperly fittng SCBA masks. The persons who had a hard time getting a proper seal despite having the mask's adjustment points either extended to the max or retracted to the max were told to "deal with it"... not exactly the answer a firefighter would like to hear.

Putting blame on the last operator of a piece of apparatus because a pump operator couldn't get water at a fire (another incident entirely and which turned out to be operator error), then writing up the previous operator for making a u turn at another incident that was directed by a company officer (told by a few Malahat firefighters, not just the one who got written up) and then writing up the so called "infraction" weeks after the alleged infraction happened in retaliation is simply no way to run a department.

The walkout of Malahat Firefighters accomplished what. Nothing.

Now those who walked out want to come back and act as if nothing happened? It can be done, but time will have to heal the wounds, and attitudes will have to be changed. That might be justice, and it is tough...

[Bones42]

I loved doing what I was doing and helping people was my first priority but how can you risk your life to look after the community when there's the risk of having no one left to look after your family? Maybe I missed this, but was insurance coverage taken completely away? or was it just changed to a lower amount?

[EastKyFF]

Just lowered, Bones, and I'm bumfuzzled that this has been such a big thing. Classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally posted by EastKyFF
Just lowered, Bones, and I'm bumfuzzled that this has been such a big thing. Classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I was bumfuzzled once... but it was from a pair of flannel boxer shorts. :D

[IACOJRev]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


I was bumfuzzled once... but it was from a pair of flannel boxer shorts. :D

No, Gonz, that would have been bumfuzzy not bumfuzzle.

[MalahatTwo7]

Originally posted by IACOJRev


No, Gonz, that would have been bumfuzzy not bumfuzzle.

FOC - ROFLMAO! :D:D:D:D

[firefighter26]

the speed of a bumfuzzle would be measured in??

bumfuzzle-ocity?

[mcaldwell]

Originally posted by firefighter26
the speed of a bumfuzzle would be measured in??

bumfuzzle-ocity?

Depends on whether it is the speed of bumfuzzle through light, or the speed of bumfuzzle through dark.

Cause as we have learned, the speed of dark is different.:D

[ToughJustice]

2. Has limited or restricted means for entry or exit (example, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, and pits that may have limited means of entry); and
It's hard to say, just because it's a hopper, doesn't mean that this is confined, it's the entry or exit part that's the catch, and that's hard to say, and really I think that it's a matter of opinion to how restrictive the means of entry of exit is...I can think of two ways to get out easily...

Well CaptainGonzo I'd like to point out that the side of the story that your hearing again is only one side of the story...just because you heard it from a few different people doesn't mean that they seen the issue from different aspects. Here's a few more facts:

There have been issues that I was asked my opinion on, such as training issues and the "rocket", including a conversation with a Malahat firefighter who stated that diesel fuel was used along with the pallets to "get the going".
This was the teachings of the Deputy Chief at the time...as per him being repremanded, I cannot be sure, since I am not the Chief and the Department is not my responsibility (Thank God!). Does it make you feel any better to know that, that Deputy is now the Department Head? Due to appointment of the CVRD who didn't even follow their own policies for this process.

A member of your department came up with a power point/slide show presentation showing the inadequacies and the dangers of using the "rocket" and came up with a solution that the entire district could have shared, used to train together with the NFPA 1403 guidelines and even defray expenses.
If you ask me that's taking way to much time for something so juvenile...but I do know that the Chief discontinued the use of the rocket following, much to the disappointment of a majority of the members. On a later date a few of the members decided that they would complain about the things wrong with it and ways that it coud be fixed...when asked if they would fix it they declined.

Safety issues... such improperly fittng SCBA masks. The persons who had a hard time getting a proper seal despite having the mask's adjustment points either extended to the max or retracted to the max were told to "deal with it"... not exactly the answer a firefighter would like to hear.
Actually this firefighter was bought a special small sized mask, which was not used a single time after it's purchase. When I was in the hall I was the only one who was comfortable enough to wear it and finally after about a year of sitting and waiting it was put to use.

Putting blame on the last operator of a piece of apparatus because a pump operator couldn't get water at a fire (another incident entirely and which turned out to be operator error), then writing up the previous operator for making a u turn at another incident that was directed by a company officer (told by a few Malahat firefighters, not just the one who got written up) and then writing up the so called "infraction" weeks after the alleged infraction happened in retaliation is simply no way to run a department.
I believe that the incident that you are talking about would be a bush fire, one where the person who was supposed to be running the pump had no clue how to do it, even though it was claimed that they could...I believe that this is one of those break under pressure situations. Not to mention the numerous complaints that were made that some people weren't pulling thier own weight, and I'm sure you know how annoying that can get. As for getting written up, who knows about that, but paperwork doesn't always follow up immediatly.

Since it wasn't the idea of the Chief of Department and/or his advisors (conincidentally, most of which are comprised of family family members), it was ignored.
Now this one really gets under my skin, how can you possibly critisize people for donating their time? And if there's an issue with an intire family being involved, why aren't those who are complaining stepping up to fill the plate of these so called "advisor" positions...if your going to sit back and critisize the people who are doing something, why don't you get up and do something productive.
But just so that you know, here's how those advisor poistions filled out:
Deputy Chief: someone of no relation to the Chief.
LT: held by someone of no relation to the Chief.
SCBA Officer: that would be the Chiefs Step-son.
Equipment Officer: that position was by a probabtionary member, of no relation to the Chief, since, people weren't fulfilling their duties.
Engineering Officer: a heavy duty mechanic, also a probationary member, and of no relation to the Chief.
First Responder Officer: no relation to the Chief.
Fire Prevention: this was held by myself, the former Chiefs daughter...something that I didn't even want to do, but again no one stepped up.

You can spare me with the Fire Hall run by a family crap, cause that's just not true...and unfortunatly, people just don't get that...being related to the Chief doesn't get you any special treatment, matter of fact it's a pain in the butt, since your continually having to prove yourself against these type of people.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Hey Toughie. I saw the "rocket" with my own eyes. I even physically went into that thing. It is a DEATH TRAP waiting to happen. I am wondering how many times you have been on the pipe in a real fire? If you are the ex chiefs daughter, you are only a teenager. If you arent, You obviously are showing your ignorance to some very basic fire safety rules. You would have got to test out your death benefits if that thing was continued to be used. Live fire training is an essential component in becoming a real firefighter. Dying in that thing isnt. Your brother hasnt answered me about roof work, so maybe you will answer my asking.. How many fires have you actually fought?

[Steamer]

It's hard to say, just because it's a hopper, doesn't mean that this is confined, it's the entry or exit part that's the catch, and that's hard to say, and really I think that it's a matter of opinion to how restrictive the means of entry of exit is...I can think of two ways to get out easily... Matter of opinion? Hardly. From Appendix E..."Restricted -- A portal of 24 inches or less in the least dimension. Portals of this size are too small to allow a rescuer to simply enter the space while using SCBA." It's not hard to say at all.
If you ask me that's taking way to much time for something so juvenile...but I do know that the Chief discontinued the use of the rocket following, much to the disappointment of a majority of the members. On a later date a few of the members decided that they would complain about the things wrong with it and ways that it coud be fixed...when asked if they would fix it they declined. Juvenile?? You consider valid safety concerns to be juvenile? At least this person saw something dangerous and pointed it out. They used a medium that they believed was the most effective in getting the point across. As for a majority of the members being disappointed when it was discontinued, oh well. They're alive to be disappointed, and that's the bottom line.

Why did the others decline to fix this thing? Maybe because they didn't feel qualified to make the proper assessment to safely correct the deficiencies? You just don't go whacking on something like this with a cutting torch and welding things willie nilly.

Mikey's right. This thing was/is dangerous.

[PFire23]

Originally posted by ToughJustice
Actually this firefighter was bought a special small sized mask, which was not used a single time after it's purchase. When I was in the hall I was the only one who was comfortable enough to wear it and finally after about a year of sitting and waiting it was put to use.

The mask WAS used a few times AFTER being bought. Maybe you need to get YOUR facts straight. It was used when SCBA drills were carried out, it was used at car fires, etc. Since there are so few FIRE incidents in that district it didn't get worn very often, but it was worn.


I believe that the incident that you are talking about would be a bush fire, one where the person who was supposed to be running the pump had no clue how to do it, even though it was claimed that they could...I believe that this is one of those break under pressure situations. Not to mention the numerous complaints that were made that some people weren't pulling thier own weight, and I'm sure you know how annoying that can get. As for getting written up, who knows about that, but paperwork doesn't always follow up immediatly.

Again, get your facts straight. The pump issue was discussed WITH the chief after the incident. For the record, water wasn't forth coming when the prime was pulled, so because I was not very experienced on that particular pump and didn't want to "break" anything by keeping the prime engaged for too long,(not to mention that we didn't need another "pump failure" like the McCurdy incident) I recognized that I was having a problem and immediately radioed for assistance, which happened to be your brother since he was the closest. You also failed to mention that once the pump was running there was NEVER a lapse in water supply or foam, water was drafted from the porta-tank without any problem. Everyone has brain farts, if in fact I "had no clue" what I was doing I'm sure the water supply would have been LOST along the way. I'm glad that you have such vast experience that you can sit back and say it was a "break under pressure" situation. Make all the allusions that you want Sarah, but since you were not privy to conversations between your father and I you really know NOTHING, unless you are saying that your Daddy breached confidentiality and you really do know what you are talking about. Which is it? Since you were NOT on that call I have to question where exactly it is that you get your information.

As for "pulling their own weight", I always did my job, so try again there.

[ToughJustice]

I love how quickly you all jump on the bandwagon of critisim. Your all too quick to jump to conclusions.

I do not believe that any relivant safety concerns are juvenile, ummm,it's the fact that that much time would be taken to make something that was just as effective as voicing your concern personally, all that time could have been spent doing something productive. Oh and don't forget to tell me that you actually did that, and my Daddy of a Fire Chief just neglected to follow up with that.

Hey Toughie. I saw the "rocket" with my own eyes. I even physically went into that thing. It is a DEATH TRAP waiting to happen. I am wondering how many times you have been on the pipe in a real fire? If you are the ex chiefs daughter, you are only a teenager. If you arent, You obviously are showing your ignorance to some very basic fire safety rules. You would have got to test out your death benefits if that thing was continued to be used. Live fire training is an essential component in becoming a real firefighter. Dying in that thing isnt. Your brother hasnt answered me about roof work, so maybe you will answer my asking.. How many fires have you actually fought?
Oh you, I really, really love you. Your so full of yourself and all of your wonderful skills. Please bless me with the pressence of your guidance.
Live Fire Training...brings back memories, those times were fun, but that was under the previous chief...wonder if the new one (who's, again, favorite tool is the rocket) would continue that training?
Yes I am a teenager, really, why continue to bring this one up...seems to me that I'm more "grown-up" then the rest of you. One thing that you all need to understand is...this fight is OUR fight...this has to do with insurance NOT training or safety.

And yet you all continue to neglect answering me this...what coverage does your insurance offer? and are you paid or volunteer?

[CaptainGonzo]

Tough Justice

Many of us who have commented on the Malahat situation have more time "on the job" than you have been on the planet! The Malahat Firefighters I know and have conversed with care about he hall, care about the job and wanted to make things better. Since they were not getting anywhere with the Chief about changing things, they asked for assistance to try to help them present a better picture so the Chief would look at things differently. The fire hall isn't a private club, you know.

Get over the fact that Daddy isn't the Chief anymore. He made his decision, he'll have to stick with it.

The firefighters who walked out en masse and want to return will have to work with the new Chief, the District and each other to make things work. If you want to be the monkey wrench tossed nto the gears...get out now.. they don't need you!

One thing that you all need to understand is...this fight is OUR fight...

Wilson's War?

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

To answer your question, I am blessed to work in a state that matches the Federal PSOB of almost $276,000. This along with my life insurance and any workmans comp claims and a few other assorted benefits ends up being quite a bit of money. I wont be around to enjoy it but thats what it is. I answered my question. Now are you going to answer mine. How many fires have you fought? You say it's your fight, but we didnt start this thread, your brother did. You have zero credibility with anyone on these forums because of the JUVENILE things you posted under your last screen name. Nobody cares (except you) about peoples personal lives. If HALF the crap that I have heard about the way people are treated around your little community is true, then those responsible should be ASHAMED of themselves. I wont comment further, because you know,deep down in your heart what the truth is. Thats a ton of baggage for someone so young. Have a nice day!;)

[ToughJustice]

Get over the fact that Daddy isn't the Chief anymore. He made his decision, he'll have to stick with it.
And so he did, not being one of the members that re-applied.

You say it's your fight, but we didnt start this thread, your brother did.
On the contrary this thread was started by Malahat27.

You have zero credibility with anyone on these forums because of the JUVENILE things you posted under your last screen name. Nobody cares (except you) about peoples personal lives. If HALF the crap that I have heard about the way people are treated around your little community is true, then those responsible should be ASHAMED of themselves. I wont comment further, because you know,deep down in your heart what the truth is. Thats a ton of baggage for someone so young.
Of Course I know what the truth is, and if I didn't I would be on here defending all of the people that you so graciously drag down. What you so claim to know about this community and the people who live in it is completely tainted...I won't comment further because that may get into the past, and things that happened (thus me being able to create my own opinions), something you obviously don't care about.

Many of us who have commented on the Malahat situation have more time "on the job" than you have been on the planet!
That's nice and your point would be?...state that your better than I. Makes no difference to me, just because of my age doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinions (not those of my family, thank you very much). Get over your experience, because as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with this situation.

The fire hall isn't a private club, you know.
Thanks Tips. I love it when people state the obvious. All we're trying to do is get back into the hall so that the community is safe again. Personally if I got into an accident on the Malahat I would refuse thier service until Mutial Aid arrived, because I KNOW the experience of the people at the hall...and frankly I wouldn't put my life in thier hands.

The firefighters who walked out en masse and want to return will have to work with the new Chief, the District and each other to make things work. If you want to be the monkey wrench tossed nto the gears...get out now.. they don't need you!
Maybe not me personally but they need the help and unfortunatly putting off accepting applications as long as they can get away with it isn't helping them any better. You know as well as I the amount of training that it takes to get up to par in Firefighting standards, and they're not meeting it, not even close.

Wilson's War?
Ha! lol, okay, lets put this one on the line...we all know how powerful the Wilson's are in this community, they must run it, you know all those people who walked out of the hall did it because they were under hypnosis of the Wilson Clan. Did you all know that they were told that they were not allowed to go back under the penalty of death done so by the Wilson Clan. That's why of the people that went back to re-join, a few of the Wilson Clan included.
Give me a break...

It's seems to me that it's some-what odd that Grown Adults like you so claim to be have to resort to "Name-Calling" when loseing a war with facts.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Originally posted by ToughJustice




On the contrary this thread was started by Malahat27.






Sorry. I stand corrected on this particular point.

[CaptainGonzo]

Originally posted by "ToughJustice"

And so he did, not being one of the members that re-applied.

That is his choice. Let us all hope that he will support the Malahat VFD regardless of his differences with the CVRD.



On the contrary this thread was started by Malahat27.

Yes it was, and it was complimentary is nature until a member of the FD tried using it to ply for the sympathy vote. Other VFD's have "walked out"... none of them have garnered any support from the members of these boards, even from their brother and sister volunteers.


Of Course I know what the truth is, and if I didn't I would be on here defending all of the people that you so graciously drag down. What you so claim to know about this community and the people who live in it is completely tainted...I won't comment further because that may get into the past, and things that happened (thus me being able to create my own opinions), something you obviously don't care about.

It's a small village made up of mostly mobile homes and the top of a mountain. It's fortunate to have it's own fire hall. The unfortunate thing is that the members of the hall decided to quit en masse instead of working things out. The reason some of the issues were brought up and being answered were because there are people who care who are nowhere near Malahat.

That's nice and your point would be?...state that your better than I.

Nope. I just have a lot more experience.

Makes no difference to me, just because of my age doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinions (not those of my family, thank you very much).

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's wrong or given to them or influenced by others....

Get over your experience, because as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with this situation.

"Tuffie"... I have actually been inside of a burning building or two, or twenty or a hundred. Have you? I have seen personnel under my command injured in the line of duty. I have taken the lifeless bodies of children and adults out of fire ravaged buildings, car wrecks, watched close family friends and even infants die right in front of my eyes despite our best efforts to revive them.

Experience is a hard teacher, those who forget the lessons are doomed to repeat them.



I love it when people state the obvious. All we're trying to do is get back into the hall so that the community is safe again. Personally if I got into an accident on the Malahat I would refuse thier service until Mutial Aid arrived, because I KNOW the experience of the people at the hall...and frankly I wouldn't put my life in thier hands.

It may your choice to refuse help or bleed to death, but I highly doubt that you would refuse help, and the members of the Malahat FD wouldn't let you die there.


Maybe not me personally but they need the help and unfortunatly putting off accepting applications as long as they can get away with it isn't helping them any better. You know as well as I the amount of training that it takes to get up to par in Firefighting standards, and they're not meeting it, not even close.

Who is reviewing the applications, CVRD or the new administration? The CVRD stated that those who wished to go back could, but with out the seniority that they had. There's a cost to play the game.
What you call putting off applications may be screening applicants for a better fire department.

PS: Would that training include time in the "rocket"?


Ha! lol, okay, lets put this one on the line...we all know how powerful the Wilson's are in this community, they must run it, you know all those people who walked out of the hall did it because they were under hypnosis of the Wilson Clan. Did you all know that they were told that they were not allowed to go back under the penalty of death done so by the Wilson Clan. That's why of the people that went back to re-join, a few of the Wilson Clan included.
Give me a break...

A certain member of the family wore a lot of Mala "Hats", if you catch my drift. You can't tell me that nobody else wanted to help, for I know that's not true. It's nice to see that people want to come back, "Wilsonites" included.

It's seems to me that it's some-what odd that Grown Adults like you so claim to be have to resort to "Name-Calling" when loseing a war with facts. Thanks Tips*

* posted out of order to prove a point

Fact: the CVRD changed the insurance policy.

Fact: many of the members of the Malahat VFD walked out due to the change.

Fact: Many of the members of the Malahat VFD realized their error and want to go back. I see this as a good thing, and I hope that those who left and those who stayed can resolve their differences. For the village of Malahat, that is a "win-win" situation.

Fact: Training and safety issues cannot be ignored, otherwise, the Malahat VFD will be using that insurance policy.

*PS: Tips? Tips? It's Captain Tips to you, darlin'. Now go to your room until you can treat those people on these boards with some respect.

[ToughJustice]

Yes it was, and it was complimentary is nature until a member of the FD tried using it to ply for the sympathy vote. Other VFD's have "walked out"... none of them have garnered any support from the members of these boards, even from their brother and sister volunteers.
Is this meant to show that anyone who walks out of a Fire Department for whichever reason doesn't recieve support? Because that is hardly the case. I can't say that I would ask for the support for anyone of the people that are on here, whether they think that I or we as a group are wrong or right, we did what we did and for good reason. If you can't see that point that's no skin off of my back, the only support that I need is that of my own, and those I walked out with.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's wrong or given to them or influenced by others....
Whether or not it's wrong isn't that a matter of opinion again? Viscious Circle if you ask me. I create my own opinions personally with my own experience and thoughts. So who it is that may have this influence here, I'm not sure.

Experience is a hard teacher, those who forget the lessons are doomed to repeat them.
I agree, did you know that there is one person waiting to go back with 17 years of experience...the most that, that Fire Hall has ever seen. Along with 11 years, 9 years, a few of 7 and 5 years, a few more just under 3, myself just under 2, and a few that have been in for less than a year. If experience is so great explain to me why they're taking this stand.

Who is reviewing the applications, CVRD or the new administration? The CVRD stated that those who wished to go back could, but with out the seniority that they had. There's a cost to play the game.
Something that these people understand completly...it'd be nice to drop all those Mala"Hats" and do only the work that we volunteered to do in the first place, Firefighting, let other people run the show while we sit in the back, cause seriously I'm getting sick of the lime-light, but will these people be critisized the way that the previous group was? What's the difference?

A certain member of the family wore a lot of Mala "Hats", if you catch my drift. You can't tell me that nobody else wanted to help, for I know that's not true. It's nice to see that people want to come back, "Wilsonites" included.
Actually I can tell you that, and I did tell you that, only two of the seven recognizable positions were held by members of the Wilson family. As per people not wanting to help...let's put it this way, a probationary firefighter was asked to fill the position of another firefighter because he simply wasn't doing the job. I understand that sometimes people don't have the time, but if you don't then don't take the job on, and don't critisize those who do.

It may your choice to refuse help or bleed to death, but I highly doubt that you would refuse help, and the members of the Malahat FD wouldn't let you die there.
Just like I'm sure that the one of members wouldn't refuse to help one of the former members carry a young girl out of spite.

PS: Would that training include time in the "rocket"?
Why would I know that?

It's a small village made up of mostly mobile homes and the top of a mountain. It's fortunate to have it's own fire hall. The unfortunate thing is that the members of the hall decided to quit en masse instead of working things out. The reason some of the issues were brought up and being answered were because there are people who care who are nowhere near Malahat.
And we did this on our own accord, this hardly means that we don't care...again you weren't there, you don't know, and from what I understand your not opening up to hear from those other that whom you want to.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge." Something that you may want to think about.
Let down your wall and be a little more open minded to the things that went on, everyone reads between the lines and in different ways at that...do you know where everyone stands on this...do you even know where I stand?

Fact: the CVRD changed the insurance policy.
Fact: The CVRD actually didn't change the insurance policy the newly appointed chief signed the policy off.

Fact: many of the members of the Malahat VFD walked out due to the change.
Fact: many of the members of the MVFD walked out when the CVRD staff called a meeting at the hall stating that the former Deputy would be filing the position of the Chief, and that we would not be allowed to recieve the upgraded insurance (this was later voted on by the board.)

Fact: Many of the members of the Malahat VFD realized their error and want to go back. I see this as a good thing, and I hope that those who left and those who stayed can resolve their differences. For the village of Malahat, that is a "win-win" situation.
Fact: Many of the former members of the MVFD realized that their point has been made (they hardly believe that any of their actions were errors). They want to go back to the hall completly devoid of any of thier positions, and wish only to do the tasks required of them. As far as I'm concerned there is no difference between the former members and those who didn't leave or went back before...like I said we've talked to the former members on numerous occasions, and any differences between these people have absolutly nothing to do with the walk-out. I can completly understand those who stayed, it was a hard thing to leave behind.

Fact: Training and safety issues cannot be ignored, otherwise, the Malahat VFD will be using that insurance policy.
Training and safety issues have nothing to do with the insurance policy, as far as I'm concerned everything that has come up previously has been dealt with. But will they be dealt with now? The current Chief was the only person who caused the Fire Department to recieve a WCB sitation during the time of the Former Chief. Also the current Chief served as Chief prior to the Former Chief's election. During this time he recieved a more than 13 sitations from WCB all simultainiously. This is now the leader of your pack.
But on the insurance policy...this one will remain to be the one the CVRD imposed, since the former one was signed off.

I'd have to at least have some respect for you in order to call you a captain and unfortunatly I don't, in order to have respect you must earn it, and I would think the same of you towards me. And just becuase you earned this position in your department means nothing to me, I just wish that some form of understanding could come of this, but it seems to be a defensive brick wall after defensive brick wall.

[CorpORiley1]

I joined the Malahat fire department just before all this insurance thing happened. I for one didn't even know that there was insurance to be honest untill the chief told me. I believe in my heart and soul that we were not fighting for the insurance just for ourselves but for every firefighter including the ones who went back and the ones who came in. I personally didn't have anyone twist my arm, hold my head or threaten me because if I didn't follow or walk out. I sat in those meetings and watched everyone of those people STAND behind their chief and each and everyone of them when they were asked were they 100% behind the chief if he stood up for what he believed and and the answer was YES. Now I believe that standing behind your Chief is a good thing just like if a captain was going down with the ship. I personally think he went out on a line for all the members and is what he should have done and only doing this because he felt he was being backed 100% as everyone around that table said and wrote that night in the letters. I maybe only new at this but I never got one phone call from the "Wilson clan" saying if you go back then we won't talk to you. I only recieved phone calls saying come down we need to support each other and there in fact is what we all have been doing supporting each other which is what should have happened in the first place. If all of those people who said that they were behind the Chief when he asked because he did say and I will quote " I will not do this and go balls to the walls if you guys are not behind me" everyone agreed and said they where..Now I say what is wrong with that picture

[CaptainGonzo]

I just wish that some form of understanding could come of this, but it seems to be a defensive brick wall after defensive brick wall.

Why yes it is....and soon you will run out of bricks and mortar.

[ToughJustice]

I think that you misunderstood my meaning on that one...I have no reason to have a wall put up, really, what do I have to hide?
What I meant was that it seems like people aren't as open-minded as they seem, ask questions, get answers, don't just assume.

[CaptainGonzo]

We don't need outside opinions
We don't want CVRD control
No dark sarcasm on the forums
Posters, leave us all alone..

Hey, posters, leave us all alone..

all in all it's just another brick in the wall...

all in all it's just another brick in the wall...*

*apologies to Roger Waters, David Gilmoour, Richard Wright and Nick Mason....PinkFloyd

[ThNozzleman]

Figured you guys could use this...;)

[ToughJustice]

I must say cudos to you for your creativity, does this mean that you have nothing left to say on this subject.

[firefighter26]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
A certain member of the family wore a lot of Mala "Hats", if you catch my drift. You can't tell me that nobody else wanted to help, for I know that's not true. It's nice to see that people want to come back, "Wilsonites" included.

Well, I will come right out and say it. I am pretty sure that this refers to me. However, I feel that there are a few things that I should point out as to why I wore so many mala-“hats” (by the way Capt. that was the highlight of my morning).

Every “hat” that I ever wore at that department was either because the person who was supposed to be doing that job wasn’t doing it; or when the position was up to be filled, no one took it. Furthermore, there were a lot of “hats” that I wore only for a few months at a time; until someone else came along to pick up that job.

The fact that I end up with these “hats” is a simple matter of logistics. The department has always had a high turnover as a result of our local demographics. With a high turnover, which is typical in small rural departments, when you are fourth on the seniority list you end up getting tasked with a lot of jobs whether you like it or not!

---------------------

Originally posted by pfire23
Again, get your facts straight. For the record, water wasn't forth coming when the prime was pulled, so because I was not very experienced on that particular pump and didn't want to "break" anything by keeping the prime engaged for too long, I recognized that I was having a problem and immediately radioed for assistance, which happened to be your brother since he was the closest. You also failed to mention that once the pump was running there was NEVER a lapse in water supply or foam, water was drafted from the porta-tank without any problem.

Your facts still have a bit of a curve to them as they are certainly NOT straight. Here is some additional information that you may not have known. Yes, mine not be straight either, but I think hearing another side to the same story might be entertaining.

First, water wasn’t forth coming because the wrong valves where opened. I know those valves where closed when I started to lay out the lines because I was standing next to them while pulling hose off the truck (and no, they could not have been bumped open). As a pump operator it doesn’t take a lot of experience to know that if you are not getting a prime there is a leak in the system. Considering the exterior suction ports where all open while trying to pull of the onboard tank, that would certainly constitute the system not being tight.
Second, you where radioed, not once, not twice, but three times to tell you to SHUT THE PUMP DOWN before it was shut down. In fact, some Mill Bay firefighters a few days later asked who was trying to prime for so long. Even though they where on the opposite flank they could still hear priming and priming and priming as if there was no tomorrow.
Third, I was not the closest but rather I drew the short straw. We (the four of us on that crew) had just finished laying out the last of nearly 1000 feet of hose by hand through the bush and when it became evident that assistance was required at the pump a volunteer was asked for. No one volunteered, so once again like many of the “hats” that ended up wearing, I was asked to do the job.
Fourth I am fairly sure that there was a loss of pressure during the change over because if I remember correctly the re-supply tender didn’t make it to us before the on board water ran out. I will confirm that in the next day or so.

---------------------

As for this being a “Wilson’s War” it certainly is not. This insurance change effects six other departments, two of which did not have any insurance, two of which has similar coverage, and two of which had to reduce their covered. ALL of which are angry about the way it was implemented.

When this entire issue started, Scott (former Chief) at a meeting told the membership exactly what was happening and gave them all a copy of the two different insurance policies. Later, after everyone was able to review the differences in policies, Scott asked the members what they would like him to do. There where two choices: Fight for the better insurance or signoff on it and accept the lesser coverage of the CVRD policy. Scott was not going to make the choice concerning the MEMBERS life insurance without input from them (something the CVRD criticized him of doing because as far as the CVRD was concerned it wasn’t any business of the firefighters what happens at an administration level), as he told me over and over that he could not in good conscience sign off on the insurance giving his firefighters less coverage.

He was asked to fight for the better insurance; when in reality it isn’t “better” insurance, just the same as we have always had.

---------------------

Mickey, to answer your question, no I have not opened up a lot of roofs in my time. That is something I will admit. As Jenn pointed out, there are not a lot of actual structure fires in our district (must be good fire prevention!) and as Gonzo point out, the majority of the structures are mobile homes, and you certainly wouldn’t find me or anyone else on my crew on the roof of a mobile home after/during a fire. That would be a safety issue, and we all know how concerned the ENTIRE forum seems to be about the safety of the Malahat Fire Department (funny how everyone can form an opinion without once asking anyone else other than Rick and Jenn. Where is the fabled BMI if everyone was so concerned? I would honestly enjoy them to give me a call, in fact, if anyone wants “the other side” of the story, PM or e-mail me your phone number, I will gladly foot the bill for the phone call regardless of where you live.)

As for pipe time, if everyone needs to know, between the various practice burns over the years (and for everyone’s sake, I will NOT include “rocket runs” of which I have my fair share of) and the limited “real” fires and abundance of vehicle fires, in addition to live fire training in Nanaimo, I can say with confidence that I have more nozzle (or pipe) time than anyone else in the department.

But the bottom line is, it doesn’t really matter how many roofs any of us have opened up or how many fires any of us have fought, because I am sure that without searching to hard I can find someone who has opened up or fought three or four times the number of anyone else and so on, and so on, and so on; so in the end it is all relative and really has nothing to do with the subject because if the truth be known, why not ask others, like Jenn for example, how many roofs she has opened up, or how many fires she has been into? If you want to question myself and Sarah, why not question everyone??? If you want to base opinion on experience, I can tell you that Sarah, despite the limited time in the department, has more than Jenn.

If you want to get into a pissing contest over who has been to more fires, who has opened more roofs, the difference between red and yellow fire engines, smooth bore or fog nozzles, than lets start another thread and I will be more than happy to throw in my 2 cents. Hell, even better, I think my phone service has five way calling, so lets have some fun. Gonzo, Mickey, Sarah, Jenn, myself... I wouldn't miss it for anything!

---------------------

In closing, concerning the Rocket, I met a Captain with 20 years on the job with a Victoria area fire department who just happens to drive a snow plow in his off time. Two months ago he stopped at the department on his own accord (after plowing our driveway, which I am thankful for because it saved us from doing it by hand), and noticed the "Dreaded Rocket" and had a look at it. Last weekend I ran into him at a wedding and he said we are lucky, because he would trade his second due engine to have something like that to train his firefighters in. In fact, he asked that if we every got bored with it could he either 1) send his firefighters up for an evening or 2) rent a flat deck to relocate it to his department's training yard.
Just food for thought.

---------------------

Lastly, for the record, check my passport. I am Dixon, not a Wilson. :rolleyes: :p ... so lets not generalize to much against "the family," since we are after all, the "don's" of the Malahat :cool: :) ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :p

[CaptainGonzo]

In closing, concerning the Rocket, I met a Captain with 20 years on the job with a Victoria area fire department who just happens to drive a snow plow in his off time. Two months ago he stopped at the department on his own accord (after plowing our driveway, which I am thankful for because it saved us from doing it by hand), and noticed the "Dreaded Rocket" and had a look at it. Last weekend I ran into him at a wedding and he said we are lucky, because he would trade his second due engine to have something like that to train his firefighters in. In fact, he asked that if we every got bored with it could he either 1) send his firefighters up for an evening or 2) rent a flat deck to relocate it to his department's training yard.
Just food for thought.

For confined space rescue...maybe.. that is, unless

According to OSHA my car is a confined space, yet I still drive it to work every day.

You're using the car that day! :D

[firefighter26]

Hey, not everyone is fortunate enough to drive a pristine 1990 Mercury Topaz; Stock of course!

Upper levels of society! :rolleyes: :D :cool:

[CaptainGonzo]

Ahhh... the Topaz/Tempo twins. We cut up a Topaz a few months ago as part of a vehicle ex drill, twasn't much left after we were done. A few days afterwards, someone came by and mentioned that they saw it in the drill yard area and asked if they could salvage the taillight lenses...

They were welcome to them... if they could find them :D

[firefighter26]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
..the Topaz/Tempo twins..

It's a Topaz, not a Tempo... Tempo's were build by Ford; Topaz's where build by Ford in the same factory, but with a Mercury logo on the grill...

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
A few days afterwards, someone came by and mentioned that they saw it in the drill yard area and asked if they could salvage the taillight lenses

Yeah, that is funny because its true! Whenever something comes into the pit to be cut up there is a list of who wants what, from tires to engine blocks, even taillights (seen one guy ask if he could have the fuses out of chevette we were going to cut... sure, whatever makes you happy budy! :-))

[Bones42]

ALL of which are angry about the way it was implemented. Just curious, but did any of these other departments walk out? What (if anything) did they do about this?

[ToughJustice]

Just curious, but did any of these other departments walk out? What (if anything) did they do about this?

The other Fire Department who had reduced coverage claimed that they would walk out in support of our former Chief if anything like that came about. But they didn't not realy surprising though, it's a hard thing to leave behind, even if it is only for a short time. Every action that they took was all done through their association...things like writing letters and press releases, but nothing more.

The other departments didn't like the way that it was implemented, but since their coverage wasn't jeopardized they didn't really have any reason to take the stance that we did. They don't really see the big picture here.

Do any of these departments realize what it is that the CVRD is doing. They are trying to bring all six Fire Departments to the same standards, something that they cannot accomplish, one of the Department's who has and Airport in thier district vs. a tiny little Department (no I'm not talking about Malahat) who averages less than 20 calls per year, how can the standards of these halls be the same?
They're not going to be able to accomplish bringing the standards of the smallest department up to meet the standards of the biggest department, so how do they make them equal? By lowering the standards of the bigger departments to meet that of the smaller.
Our Fire Department has no tall buildings in our district so why would we need a laddar truck, but our hall gets call upon call of MVA's so we'll take all the rescue equipment that we can get. Not all districts are the same, so why would their halls be the same.

Do any of these Departments realize that the CVRD is trying to remove the elections for Chief and Deputy in these departments and replacing it with a permanent appointment of a Chief of their choice.

There's a bigger picture beyond the insurance, the insurance is just the tip of the iceberg, something too many people aren't seeing.

[Bones42]

They don't really see the big picture here. Answering emergency calls is the big picture. Going home safe after the call is the big picture. Better insurance than the "standard" package is not a big picture.

What standards are they trying to make the same? Are they basic standards, like comparable to FF1? That is something that should be a standard. I'll agree, airport coverage is not something standard and would be needed by all. Basic First Aid and extrication would be good standards that should be comparable. Basic tasks/operations can be standard between the big/small departments with more specialized training for what an area needs.

Do any of these Departments realize that the CVRD is trying to remove the elections for Chief and Deputy in these departments and replacing it with a permanent appointment of a Chief of their choice Is that a bad thing? What standards/requirements to all the departments have for their Chief and Deputies? Are any of them "good ole boy clubs" or do they all select the properly trained/educated/experienced people?


Granted, I only know what I've read/seen here, but none of this sounds really bad.

[arhaney]

I really don't see anything wrong with getting all of the departments "on the same page". I wish someone in our county would take a hint and do the same! And yes the standards need to be the same for the big departments as well as the small ones. Does that mean you must have a ladder truck, HELL NO............. Just the same SOPs etc. Geeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz Get a grip, Is there a conspiracy or something.................Look , look, there's green funky fanged winkerbeans crawling on walls, and they're going to take over our FD!!!!

[CaptainGonzo]

It's a conspiracy...

Actually, I see the entire matter as getting everyone on the same page. I went on the CVRD website and actually had the minutes of the meeting up before a slight power outage knocked me off line.unfortunately, I couldn't get back to the link. It qas in adobe reader format.

It appears that the Malahat firefighters who walked out wanted to come back with a few condtions of their own..

1. that they be allowed to increase their level of insurance.
2. that everyone would return to their previous rank and senority.

The motion was denied by the board.

If the Malahat firefighters want to pay for their own insurance increase by taking out a supplemental policy as a group, I see that as being reasonable.

[ToughJustice]

Answering emergency calls is the big picture. Going home safe after the call is the big picture. Better insurance than the "standard" package is not a big picture.

I agree that going to calls and coming home safe is important, you go there knowing your risks before you join. But reducing our coverage from what we had for the previous eight years is a slap in the face.
How about the firefighter who recieved an eye injury and had an insurance claim in place at the time they canceled the insurance, now through the new insurance he won't get any coverage since it is concidered a pre-existing condition.
How about the firefighter how did damage to the lens on her glasses at a call, and we payed for getting them fixed out of our minimal canteen money since the CVRD refused to cover it.

Is that a bad thing? What standards/requirements to all the departments have for their Chief and Deputies? Are any of them "good ole boy clubs" or do they all select the properly trained/educated/experienced people?

No this isn't an "ole boys club" the CVRD's policies and procedures for Chief and Deputy is to advertise the position, accept applications which are judged by the standards set out by the CVRD staff, interviews are held, elections are voted on by the members, and the recommendation is made to the board who decides if this person is worthy.
Something that wasn't followed in the appointing of the current Chief.
As for the current Chief being properly trained/educated/experienced is say again:
The current Chief was the only person who caused the Fire Department to recieve a WCB sitation during the time of the Former Chief. Also the current Chief served as Chief prior to the Former Chief's election. During this time he recieved a more than 13 sitations from WCB all simultainiously. This is now the leader of your pack.
And get this, we just recieved money in our budget to purchase a new Rescue truck and the current Chief's biggest beef with this is that he does not want to purchase a new truck but rather find an used one. Why question something good?

Does that mean you must have a ladder truck, HELL NO............. Just the same SOPs etc.
Actually our SOPs or SOGs as they were called here are controlled by the Chief.
What they're trying to do is have each of the halls purchase the same equipment, turn-out gear, and such, again something that not all hall are going to have the same, because they all work under different conditions and know what they're going to need on a call. Everything that they want to look the same on paper is great, because we all know that what goes on, on paper and real life are two different things.

Actually, I see the entire matter as getting everyone on the same page. I went on the CVRD website and actually had the minutes of the meeting up before a slight power outage knocked me off line.unfortunately, I couldn't get back to the link. It qas in adobe reader format.

It appears that the Malahat firefighters who walked out wanted to come back with a few condtions of their own..

1. that they be allowed to increase their level of insurance.
2. that everyone would return to their previous rank and senority.

The motion was denied by the board.

If the Malahat firefighters want to pay for their own insurance increase by taking out a supplemental policy as a group, I see that as being reasonable.
Good to see that your back when you have someone else slinging mudd. But again what's on paper isn't nessicarily what happened in real life. And again I say what suggestions that we made and were continualy shot down by the CVRD Staff.
The members suggested that they keep their old policy in place until it ran out and during this period look into upgrading the new policy. To this the CVRD replied You cannot hold two policies at once without them cancelling each other out. This they claimed came directly from the insurance company.
The members suggested that they upgrade the new policy to meet that of their old poicy as the CVRD said would be avaliable in a memo to the Chief. To this the CVRD replied This is unavaliable since it would cancel the savings that the Fire Departments recieved by buying in mass. clashing with what they had said previously.
The members proceeded to suggest that they buy a seperate insurancy policy with the money out of their own pockets...something that we haven't had to do in a few years.
The CVRD proceeded to ignore us, they would not listen to any of our suggestions, and further more they wouldn't even discuss any other options with us. It was like walking into a brick wall, a lying, cheating, government representation of a brick wall.
Good suggestion but we already tried that one.

[firefighter26]

Originally posted by Bones42
Is that a bad thing? What standards/requirements to all the departments have for their Chief and Deputies? Are any of them "good ole boy clubs" or do they all select the properly trained/educated/experienced people?

As per department elections, it is not a "good ole boys club" style that you may suggest. The CVRD, about 5-6 years, put in place a new election process.

Basically, the position is posted along with a minimum qualifications list. Anyone wishing to apply submits a resume and cover letter which is reviewed by the CVRD. A CVRD committee then interviews all the applicants. That committee is made up of CVRD staff and an un-biased chief of a valley department (I believe Duncan's Chief was the last one to sit on the interview board). Then, based all that an eligibility list is created and set back the membership for them to vote on.

After the vote, that recommendation is taken back the CVRD protective services for approval, which is then forwarded the CVRD board as a whole for approval.

Originally posted by Bones42
What standards are they trying to make the same? Are they basic standards, like comparable to FF1? That is something that should be a standard. I'll agree, airport coverage is not something standard and would be needed by all. Basic First Aid and extrication would be good standards that should be comparable. Basic tasks/operations can be standard between the big/small departments with more specialized training for what an area needs.

First aid is standard with the FR program. All the fire departments in question use the same training program. In fact, before this all happened I was re-certing with some fire fighters from Sahtlam FD (one of the other department's involved).

Here are some facts about the department's involved:

The MVFD’s training budget for 2005 is larger than the entire budget (training, maintenance and capital expenditures) of one of the department’s in question.

Also, as pointed out, when it comes to training things are vastly different. One fire department covers an airport, the other five don't.

Four of the six don’t own a Jaws unit or basic extrication equipment, where as in our neck of the woods extrication has always been our specialty and MVAs make up 60% of our call volume.

At the low end, one of the departments only runs 15 calls a year, where as at the other end of the spectrum, another department gets closer to 250-300 calls a year.

One department operates out of two stations and has three engines, where as another recently purchased a “new” 1977 pumper, which was an upgrade from their '65 Ford.

One department covers 66 square miles, another less than 15 square miles.

One department uses the new MSAs with the mask HUD display, while the other still runs old Scotts with steel bottles.

In principle, no it doesn’t sound bad. In fact, things like bulk purchasing of fire hose, etc, is something that our department suggested nearly six years ago.

But that isn’t the case. Basically, how it is going to work (and I have seen the ground work being laid for this), is that department's will no longer have any say in the equipment they purchase, but rather it will be purchased for them (with little or no input from the FDs).

However, as pointed out, the entire issue goes beyond the insurance, and even beyond the "standardization" of the six departments. The insurance was just the tip.

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It took the CVRD six weeks to approve us purchasing 10 packs of new sawsall blades; in fact, I had to explain to them what a sawzall blade was and why we needed them.

Mill Bay FD uses 4 inch supply line, so we decided we would purchase a 4" to 6" fitting so we could hook into their hi-vol system. That took nearly two months for them to "research" and approve us purchasing one; when they where provided with a two page report about what it was and why we needed it (and two pages it a lot to write about a single fitting).

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Does everyone know what the CVRD told the ex-chief in a meeting the day we all resigned? I will fell everyone in.

They told him that "his fire fighters didn't care about the community" that "they where being selfish" and that "if they d