The OtherSide of the Evil Empire Story

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Here is how an economically strong franchise actually helps the whole league in Major League Baseball. Read the end of the story.

AP: Yanks, Angels BoSox to Pay Luxury Tax
Dec 27, 9:23 PM (ET)
By RONALD BLUM
NEW YORK (AP) - The Boston Red Sox got an extra bill after winning the World Series. Boston and Anaheim must pay baseball's luxury tax along with the New York Yankees, according to final figures compiled by the commissioner's office.

The Yankees are required to pay $25,026,352, according to a Dec. 21 memorandum that was sent to all major league teams. Boston owes $3,155,234 for exceeding the payroll threshold of $120.5 million and Anaheim got a bill for $927,059.

Checks for the competitive-balance tax, as it is formally known, are due at the commissioner's office by Jan. 31.

"The CBT is now an important part of baseball's economic landscape," Red Sox owner John Henry said in an e-mail Monday. "From my perspective, even though it costs us, the stronger the CBT is in the future, the stronger the sport is going to be. It is a much more productive form of taxation than that of strictly revenue taxation because the economic incentives for teams are not damaged."

In 2003, the first year of the new luxury tax, the Yankees were the only team to pay, owing $11,798,357, according to the team's latest revised bill. Because they exceeded the threshold a second time, the Yankees were taxed at a rate of 30 percent for the amount they were over. Boston and Anaheim were taxed at a 22.5 percent rate.

If the Yankees go over the 2005 threshold of $128 million, which appears certain, they would be taxed at a 40 percent rate.

New York also estimates it will give up about $60 million as part of baseball's revenue-sharing plan this season, meaning the Yankees will send the commissioner's office about $85 million of their estimated $315 million revenue in 2004. Boston's revenue-sharing payment is estimated at approximately $42 million on revenue of at least $220 million.

The Yankees easily finished ahead of other teams in the regular payrolls figures for the sixth straight season, winding up at a record $187.9 million, $18 million above the previous mark they set in 2003.

Boston, which overcame a 3-0 deficit against the Yankees in the AL championship series and won the World Series for the first time since 1918, was second at $130.4 million.

Anaheim, defeated by the Red Sox in the first round of the playoffs, was third at $115.6 million, followed by the New York Mets ($103.2 million), Los Angeles ($101.7 million), the Chicago Cubs ($100.7 million) and Philadelphia ($97.4 million).

St. Louis, swept by Boston in the World Series, was eighth at $92.8 million.

At the other end, Tampa Bay finished with the lowest payroll for the third straight season. At $24.4 million, the Devil Rays had the lowest figure for any team since 2000.

Milwaukee was 29th at $29.6 million, down from $43.3 million, and Pittsburgh was 28th at $32.5 million, down from $53.3 million.

Texas fell from fifth at $103.3 million to 13th at $79.2 million, Atlanta went from sixth at $98 million to 12th at $79.4 million, Seattle dropped from seventh at $97.7 million to 11th at $81.8 million and Arizona declined from 11th at $83.8 million to 15th at $68.4 million.

Anaheim rose from 12th at $80 million to third, the Cubs increased from 10th at $84 million to sixth and Philadelphia went up from 15th at $71.5 million to seventh.

Payrolls include salaries, prorated shares of signing bonuses, earned bonuses, buyouts of 2004 options and cash transactions.

For the luxury tax, which is based on 40-man rosters, the average annual values of contracts and includes benefits, the Yankees finished with a payroll of $203.9 million, while Boston was at $134.5 million and Anaheim at $124.6 million.

Many midlevel teams appear to be spending money on free agents this offseason, possibly because of the shift in economics created by increased revenue sharing. That could push the average salary higher next season.

According to the players' association, the average dropped 2.5 percent this year to $2,313,535 from $2,372,189, the first decrease since 1995 and only the third since record-keeping began in 1967.

[Bones42]

followed by the New York Mets ($103.2 million) Proof that money does not buy a winning team.

[Fire2123]

It gets on my nerves when someone says the Red Sox bought the World Series. As if it always goes to the highest bidder. If so, why didn't the Yankees win it? It's not all about money. Look at the Marlins' championships.

[manofire2]

What this means to me is that despite the Yankees and others spending record amounts of money, the league average is dropping. It does not take rocket science to figure out that this means the discrepancy between the big spenders and the others is increasing.

Until there is a salary cap, we will always see teams like the Yankees trying(repeat trying) to buy championships. As we speak, the MLB players association is pouring money into the NHL players association to keep them from giving in on the salary cap issue. The NHL and MLB are the only major pro sports without a cap.

Yes the players love the "Tax" because it means that owners like Steinbrenner will continue to spend like drunken sailers in an attempt to maintain the have/have not discrepancy. Until there is a salary cap in all Pro-Sports, the average fan will continue to be the loser and Pro-Sports will more and more be the sole domain of the elite.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by manofire2
What this means to me is that despite the Yankees and others spending record amounts of money, the league average is dropping. It does not take rocket science to figure out that this means the discrepancy between the big spenders and the others is increasing.

Until there is a salary cap, we will always see teams like the Yankees trying(repeat trying) to buy championships. As we speak, the MLB players association is pouring money into the NHL players association to keep them from giving in on the salary cap issue. The NHL and MLB are the only major pro sports without a cap.

Yes the players love the "Tax" because it means that owners like Steinbrenner will continue to spend like drunken sailers in an attempt to maintain the have/have not discrepancy. Until there is a salary cap in all Pro-Sports, the average fan will continue to be the loser and Pro-Sports will more and more be the sole domain of the elite.

This elite crap is getting old. A person can still go watch a major league game at a very reasonable price.

The whole point of my post was summed up in this paragraph:
Many midlevel teams appear to be spending money on free agents this offseason, possibly because of the shift in economics created by increased revenue sharing. That could push the average salary higher next season.
That means there is a more level playing field than in the past. That is the point of the LT. It is accomplishing exactly the opposite of what you posted.

That's two of my posts in one night you missed the complete point on.

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by Fire2123
It gets on my nerves when someone says the Red Sox bought the World Series. As if it always goes to the highest bidder. If so, why didn't the Yankees win it? It's not all about money. Look at the Marlins' championships.

I couldnt agree more. Look at the New York Rangers. Highest payroll in the NHL and they have missed the playoffs the last 2 or 3 years:rolleyes:

Dave

[manofire2]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


This elite crap is getting old. A person can still go watch a major league game at a very reasonable price.

The whole point of my post was summed up in this paragraph:
Many midlevel teams appear to be spending money on free agents this offseason, possibly because of the shift in economics created by increased revenue sharing. That could push the average salary higher next season.
That means there is a more level playing field than in the past. That is the point of the LT. It is accomplishing exactly the opposite of what you posted.

That's two of my posts in one night you missed the complete point on.

One and I didn't miss your point, I disagreed with it. The only way to accheive a level playing field is with a cap. If the LT had any effect the Yankees and others wouldn't spend the way they do. Gerorge Steinbrenner laughs at the tax.

As for the "elite crap". The average ticket price for MLB is $18.99. With the 3 highest priced seats in MLB, surprize surprize:
Boston, NY Yankees and 3rd New York Mets. Now I may not be quite as well of as some and maybe I'm cheap but by the time 4 of us go to a game, maybe buy hot dogs and perhaps a beer for me and the wife, it adds up to more that my entertainment budget can bear. Add parking, gas, etc. your hitting in excess of $200.00. Maybe I can take that kind of hit once a year. Hockey has gotten totally out of hand, I don't even consider attending any more.

I sorry to preach but in my book, that is elitist and the LT simply isn't helping the small market teams. I guess we could say the hell with the small market teams but is that good for baseball.

As for whether Boston bought the Championship, I have never said that. Raping the small markets doesn't buy winners but it does buy a lot of hurt for teams that can't play the cheque book recruiting game.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by manofire2


One and I didn't miss your point, I disagreed with it. The only way to accheive a level playing field is with a cap. If the LT had any effect the Yankees and others wouldn't spend the way they do. Gerorge Steinbrenner laughs at the tax.

As for the "elite crap". The average ticket price for MLB is $18.99. With the 3 highest priced seats in MLB, surprize surprize:
Boston, NY Yankees and 3rd New York Mets. Now I may not be quite as well of as some and maybe I'm cheap but by the time 4 of us go to a game, maybe buy hot dogs and perhaps a beer for me and the wife, it adds up to more that my entertainment budget can bear. Add parking, gas, etc. your hitting in excess of $200.00. Maybe I can take that kind of hit once a year. Hockey has gotten totally out of hand, I don't even consider attending any more.

I sorry to preach but in my book, that is elitist and the LT simply isn't helping the small market teams. I guess we could say the hell with the small market teams but is that good for baseball.

As for whether Boston bought the Championship, I have never said that. Raping the small markets doesn't buy winners but it does buy a lot of hurt for teams that can't play the cheque book recruiting game.

Have you been to a movie lately? What about a concert? What about a play? What about the ballet? What about the opera?

$18.99 average price is elitist? Are you kidding me? Down here you pay $9 for a movie. I paid $35.00 per seat to see the Boston Pops just before Christmas. My wife paid almost $75.00 per seat for us to see Dame Edna in two weeks. Last year we paid over $100.00 per seat to see Phantom of the Opera.

If this is elitist, it is not relegated to the sports world.

An "average price" means that there are some more expensive and some less expensive. So, you can't afford the best seats, so what? What are the team owner's supposed to do, give the seats away?

You want to see an expensive sports event? The US Open (tennis). You can get a grounds pass for about $30.00, but that does not get you a seat in either stadium to watch the big matches. Those will run you almost $75.00 at the low end. The food is the most expensive food I have ever seen at a sports event.

But this has ZERO to do with salaries! There are corporate sponsors up the wazu, and the event has two sessions per day for like 12 days.

I agree with you, maybe you're cheap.

[pete892]

NASCAR does not have a salary cap and while some tickets are expensive, you get to bring your own beer.

Stay safe,

Pete

[manofire2]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


Have you been to a movie lately? What about a concert? What about a play? What about the ballet? What about the opera?

$18.99 average price is elitist? Are you kidding me? Down here you pay $9 for a movie. I paid $35.00 per seat to see the Boston Pops just before Christmas. My wife paid almost $75.00 per seat for us to see Dame Edna in two weeks. Last year we paid over $100.00 per seat to see Phantom of the Opera.

If this is elitist, it is not relegated to the sports world.

An "average price" means that there are some more expensive and some less expensive. So, you can't afford the best seats, so what? What are the team owner's supposed to do, give the seats away?

You want to see an expensive sports event? The US Open (tennis). You can get a grounds pass for about $30.00, but that does not get you a seat in either stadium to watch the big matches. Those will run you almost $75.00 at the low end. The food is the most expensive food I have ever seen at a sports event.

But this has ZERO to do with salaries! There are corporate sponsors up the wazu, and the event has two sessions per day for like 12 days.

I agree with you, maybe you're cheap.

Where do I start. For one, we were talking about baseball and although I agree most of the things you suggest are over priced the age old maxim still holds true, "2 wrongs don't make a right."

Comparing baseball to tennis is really comparing apples to oranges. Tennis you compete for a purse, you are not salaried. Tennis is elitist, how many poor kids play tennis?

Now we see that the Yankees have signed Randy Johnson at $21,000,000 per year.

I may be cheap but I must be crazy too because here I am arguing with a guy who paid $75 a seat to see Dame Edna.

(I hope you can at least get a laugh out of that, I wasn't going to continue with this Mexican standoff over MLB salaries but I couldn't resist one last post on the Dame Edna thing.)

[NJFFSA16]

The Arizona Diamondbacks and Yankees reached a tentative
agreement Thursday on a deal to send the Big Unit to the Bronx for
pitchers Javier Vazquez and Brad Halsey, young catcher Dioner
Navarro and $9 million, a baseball official said on condition of
anonymity.

Equally as exciting...and George...I hope you agree:

.....the Yankees reached a preliminary agreement on a
contract with Tino Martinez that would bring the free-agent first
baseman back to New York. :D :D :D

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Letting Tino go was a slap in the face to a guy who showed up every day, played hard and was loved by the fans. I remember going to Shea (puke) to see Tino n his first game in NY with the Cards. I want to tell you what a class act this guy is. He stayed on the field for well over an hour signing anything and everything the fans could throw at him. Finally security made him go in the dugout. He collected several items and brought them with him into the dugout. Then sent the batboy into the stands to return them...signed.

The Giambi deal never worked-steroids or no steroids. He was not a NY type of player and his performance never reached his hype. To be fiar, he is not the first guy this has happened to and he won't be the last. It takes a certain type of player to play there. Tino was that kind of player.

Johnson will give the Yankees the last peice of the puzzle they need to return to the WS. If he stays healthy, that team has the potential to win 120 games. Why? Because the Yankees are the single most financially succesful sports franchise in the history of this country. They are owned with a man whose passion for beng a succesful businessman is eclipsed only by his desire to put a winning baseball team in NY and his obsession with INVESTING HIS EARNINGS BACK INTO THE TEAM!

I don't care if they get Beltran or not. His price tag went down a great deal when the Yankees signed Johnson. To tell you the truth, there is no room for him on the team.

[manofire2]

For once I have to agree with you. I had the pleasure of watching Tino when he played Triple A here in Calgary. He was and is first class all the way.

Unfortunately we have lost our Triple A franchise due to the economic realities of the game and geography. Both Edmonton and Calgary supported Triple A ball but once Vancouver dropped their team it just got too expensive to travel this far north. When the Vancouver Canadians were still going, teams could make a 3 city road trip fairly economically. When Vancouver stopped supproting the Canadians (partly because baseball fans in Vancouver would rather drive to Seattle than watch Triple A), that junket was no longer viable.

The best part about watching the Cannons was being able to see talent like Tino and Edgar Martinez and then being able to follow them to the majors. The worst part was that with the lack of loyalty both to the team and to the player, which is the reality of todays game, it is rare that you are able to follow those players on the teams which they start with. Your hero is sleeping with the enemy, more often than not.

One unfortunate thing, is that because Randy Johnson and Ken Griffey Jr. were such great talents, we didn't get the oportunity to see them here as they both went to the Mariners without ever playing for the Cannons. Griffey went directly from double A to the majors and Johnson was trade from Montreals Triple A team to Seattle and went straight to the show from there. Such was the history and ultimately the demise of the Expos as being a small market club they couldn't hang on to their stars and the fan base disappeared after seeing all their talen leave.

The sad part of all with Montreal is that they arguably develpoed more talent that any other team during the 80's and 90's. The Expos undoubtably had the best team in MLB when the players strike submarined their season. The franchis unfortunately never recovered from that.

[manofire2]

Yanks' post-trade payroll to top $200 M


Associated Press



12/31/2004

NEW YORK (AP) - There appear to be few, if any, limits to what the Yankees can afford, the reason they can add Randy Johnson and perhaps Carlos Beltran to their firmament of stars. Then again, money is no object when you play in a city where apartments sell for $44 million US, nursery schools can command $24,000, and dinner for two at a top restaurant can cost $1,000.



New York's acquisition of Randy Johnson from Arizona, which is likely to be completed next week, will boost the Yankees' payroll to about $205 million, easily topping the major league record of $187.9 million they set in 2004.



The Yankees, with a bottomless pit of cash and, some would say, arrogance, must pay a $25 million luxury tax for last season - about $600,000 more than Tampa Bay's entire payroll.



Owner George Steinbrenner certainly doesn't mind spending as long as the World Series flag flies above his ball park. Problem is, it hasn't since 2000. But that hasn't stopped him.





"When you accept big money from Mr. Steinbrenner," first baseman Tino Martinez said, "you have to win."



Martinez, who helped the Yankees win four World Series titles and five American League pennants from 1996-01, rejoined the team Friday as a backup to Jason Giambi. He knows how Yankees fans view last season's team, which was an inning away from sweeping Boston in the AL championship series only to become the first major league team to squander a 3-0 lead in a best-of-seven series.



"They came up short, they failed," Martinez said bluntly. "They have to win a world championship. That's what they're there for."



New York and Arizona finalized paperwork Friday for the Johnson trade and plan to submit it Monday to commissioner Bud Selig for approval. The Yankees are sending the Diamondbacks pitcher Javier Vazquez, prospects Brad Halsey and Dioner Navarro and $9 million. As part of the deal, they want a 72-hour window to discuss a contract extension for Johnson, a 41-year-old left-hander who has won five Cy Young Awards.



The Yankees' economics are far different from those of every other major league team. Their box seats near the infield will go for $90 a game next year.



Of course, that's peanuts and Cracker Jacks for the city's well-heeled baseball fans. For many New Yorkers, money really is no obstacle.



For example, this week at Zabar's, a famous West Side food emporium, there was an express line just for caviar. At Citarella, another mecca for gourmands, white truffles were going for $199 an ounce.



Fans of cabaret singer Bobby Short pay a $95 cover charge before he ever tickles the ivories or a single drink is poured at Cafe Carlyle.



Those numbers are infinitesimal when compared to Manhattan's booming real estate prices. According to Halstead's third-quarter survey, the average sale price of a small two-bedroom apartment was $963,127 in the third quarter. The average for a large two-bedroom was $1,277,401.



Perhaps the most incredible example of all: News Corp. CEO Rupert Murdoch is in the process of buying a three-floor Fifth Avenue apartment from the late Laurance S. Rockefeller's estate and will pay $44 million in cash - no mortgages allowed. That tops the record $42.25 million businessman David Martinez paid when he bought two condominium units to combine them into one at the Time Warner Center.



The Yankees had revenues of roughly $315 million in 2004, taking in about $130 million from ticket sales alone. Boston, which had the No. 2 payroll at $130 million, estimated its revenue at $220 million.



Yankees manager Joe Torre, as well as Yankees fans, know that after he plucks these stars from other teams, Steinbrenner readies himself for the new season by thinking about 162 wins, 0 losses, and post-season sweeps all the way through the World Series.



Anything less is a failure.



"When you work for George Steinbrenner," Torre said, "whether you're the favourite or you're not the favourite, you're expected to win."



No matter the price.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

So what was your point behind posting the article? That George is responsible for the economic realities of Manhattan? It couldn't possiblt be that perhaps, just perhaps, very affluent people live int he NYC area and are willing to pay top dollar for top entertainment?

Top entertainment is what makes people in NYC come out. If a Broadway show pumps millions of dollars into a production, and it sucks, people don't come and it closes. Economic reality.

What should George do? "Ya know. I think we have enough World Championships. I won't sign any free agents or trade for stars anymore. I'll let the other teams win." No chance. Economic reality.

Don't even talk to me about the Expos. The franchise had great teams. But their demise was not due to the strike or anything else baseball related. They were completely financially mismanaged. That is why the league took over the franchise. They bent over backwards to try to keep baseball in Canada. They couldn't. Oh well. Economic reality.

[Fire303]

My 5 favorite words ever spoken

"WORST COLLAPSE IN BASEBALL HISTORY"



APRIL 2005

Yankee payroll.......$1 gazillion dollars

Red Sox payroll......$1/2 a gazillion dollars

The Yankees forced to watch the Red Sox raise their banner and get their rings at Fenway.....Priceless

[manofire2]

The point of this whole discussion is whether or not the predatory nature of Yankee recruiting is good for baseball. Clearly it is good for New York, that is mute. My point is and always has been that what the Yankees do is not good for all of baseball and is poison to the small market franchises.

I'm not saying that Steinbrenner and the Yankees do anything. I am saying that MLB needs to do something to create a level playing field. MLB must put in a salary cap for the good of the league. It is only a matter of time before baseball owners have had enough. If the NHL owners are successful in getting a cap then it is just a matter of time before baseball does. The MLB players association knows that, which is why they are financing the NHL players association in that dispute.

The demise of the Expos was entirely due to not being able to put bums in the seats. In the last few years they barely averaged 10,000 fans per game. That is economic reality. The Expos fans simply had enough of getting their heart ripped out every year. If you look at the talent Montreal developed only to lose to their inability to compete in the salary wars it reads like a list of players destined for Cooperstown. Randy Johnson, Andres Gallaraga, Larry Walker, Vlad Guerera, Moises Alou, and of course Pedro Martinez just to name a few of the players still active.

As I've said many times, it is not up to the Yankees to fix the problem it is up to baseball. The Yankees are not the problem they merely exploit the problem.

I don't know when the MLB collective bargaining agreement ends but you can bet that when it does, the salary cap is the major issue and don't be surprized when you lose another season, like 1994.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

The salary cap issue will kill the NHL. You people better face reality, the NHL will never, ever, ever recover from this. Bettman has made a huge miscalculation here that will, by this time next year, spell the demise of the league. And I am as big a hockey fan and Ranger fan as I am a baseball and Yankee fan.

How many of those Expos stars were traded away? The Expos traded many of their big names away. That is either a failure to recognize talent or complete mismanagement.

It is not predatory to put the best team you can on the field. You owe it to your fans. Period.

[manofire2]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
The salary cap issue will kill the NHL. You people better face reality, the NHL will never, ever, ever recover from this. Bettman has made a huge miscalculation here that will, by this time next year, spell the demise of the league. And I am as big a hockey fan and Ranger fan as I am a baseball and Yankee fan.

How many of those Expos stars were traded away? The Expos traded many of their big names away. That is either a failure to recognize talent or complete mismanagement.

It is not predatory to put the best team you can on the field. You owe it to your fans. Period.

I am one who believes that the salary cap issue will ultimately save the NHL just as it did the NFL. Let's face it, a level playing field makes for a competitive league and in the long run everybody, except the very elite, benefits. I believe that the NHL will recover but the scars will forever remain. I also believe that in the end there will be a cap but possibly with a provision that each team can sign one "marquis" player outside of the cap.

The Expos did not fail to recognize talent they simply realized as do most other teams that you can't compete in an open market with the big market teams, not just the Yankees. Do you think the Expos did not know they had a bonafied all-star in Vlad Guerera, of course they did, they also knew that they couldn't afford to keed him. As you yourself has said, you owe it to you fans to put the best team you can on the field. Simply put if you took away all the Yankee stars and replaced them with players who are barely above AAA level, would the fans still show up. Maybe for a while but not year after year. Expos fans put up with mediocrity for almost a decade and yes MLB bent over backwards to try to save baseball in Montreal. At the same time predatory owners like Steinbrenner did their level best to destroy them.

Yes the Yankees owe it to their fans to put the best team on the field. MLB however owes the same to all fans not just those in New York.

You say it's not predatory to simply outbid the competition, I say it is but whatever you want to call it, it is killing the small market franchizes.

Once again, I am not blaming the Yankees, I am blaming MLB. The Yankees are playing within the rules and until the rules change what they do may be unethical it is not however, illegal.

The rules must change. There must be a salary cap.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

You are not the least bit objective about the Expos. Guerrero is not a good example because the team was already lost at that point. What about the others you never addressed.

BTW, if BEttman doesn't back down about a salary cap, and the players don't back down about a luxury tax or nothing, the NHL will NEVER play another game. The teams are insured for this year. The players are getting paid by the NHLPA. But next year, there is nothing.

[manofire2]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
You are not the least bit objective about the Expos. Guerrero is not a good example because the team was already lost at that point. What about the others you never addressed.

BTW, if BEttman doesn't back down about a salary cap, and the players don't back down about a luxury tax or nothing, the NHL will NEVER play another game. The teams are insured for this year. The players are getting paid by the NHLPA. But next year, there is nothing.

I suppose it's objective to look at baseball simply from a Yankee perspective. As long as it's good for New York, the hell with the rest of the league.

If Guerrero was not a good example then pick any of the others I named. Every single player I named, with the possible exception of Johnson left for economic reasons and these are only the ones who are like bound for the Hall Of Fame, there are others, Marquis Grissom, Livan Hernandez and just so we don't stick with players there's Philipe Alou.

As for the NHL, the owners can hold out longer than the players. There is solidarity right now but more and more players are realizing that they will never be a marquis player and so they aren't effected by a cap. The NHLPA are already being subsidized by the MLB players in an effort to keep them from caving on the cap issue.

The NHL will survive but many of the players holding out will never see another game and don't expect the high priced help that these guys are taking a bullett for to help them when all is said and done. Don't look for MLB players to throw them any coins either once this is over.

There will be some bleeding on the owners side as well but in the end it's the players that will hurt the most. Actually it's the fan that gets hurt the most but who cares about the fan.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by manofire2
The NHLPA are already being subsidized by the MLB players in an effort to keep them from caving on the cap issue.



Do you have a source for this?

On the other issues, its difficult to say that a player left for econmic reasons when they were traded.

Also, an NHL team is a business. If there is no income, the business can no longer operate. If this season is canned, you can look for some teams to start folding.

There is no hope of a compromise as things stand today. If the players don't give in on a salary cap, and the owners don't give in on their demand of one, there will never be another NHL game as we know it.

The fans are absolutely the key here. Hockey has been irreparably damaged. Maybe in Canada, it will bounce right back. But in the US, they are going to have a huge problem. There was a poll in one of the NY papers the other day that showed about 80% of those questioned did not care about the NHL strike. That level of apathy will be the death knell for teams like the Islanders, Senators, Lightning, etc. the NHL may still exist, but it will never be the same. BTW, both sides are to blame here.

[manofire2]

I will try to find a source for the MLB player supporting the NHLPA, we still have hot stove discussions on our radio stations here and it has been brought up a number of times by the guests, usually media types or ex players.

There is no doubt that some franchizes won't survive the lock-out, particularly those in sun-belt areas. I think the Canadian teams will all be back but your right, things will never be the same.

I don't think either side likes the apparent apathy towards the issue, however I think once we get over our little hockey fix here (that being the World Jr. Tournament) I think things are going to heat up a bit.

You're also right neither side is to blame, I do think however that most fans, at least those up here, side with the owners on the salary cap issue. Most people equate ticket pricing with players salary and although that is only partly true it nonetheless with view the fans take.

I don't think anybody begrudges these guys making a very good living but when a police officer, a firefighter, or a school teacher would need to work 100 years to bring home the same pay as a guy playing a sport makes, there is something wrong.

I know that salary isn't the only issue involved in ticket pricing but if the only thing standing between hockey or no hockey is the cap, then I support it. There already is a minimum in place, why not a maximum too.

I will now look for info in print on the MLB players supporting the NHLPA.

[manofire2]

It took a while George, but I finally found the reference I was looking for.

Baseball players back locked out NHLers: report
WebPosted Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:46:52 EDT
CBC Sports
Baseball's players' union has sent a letter offering its support to the NHL's locked out players, according to a report.


Indepth: Faceoff 2004


Donald Fehr, the head of the baseball players' union, says his membership backs its hockey brethren. (CP Photo)
American cable sports network ESPN has obtained the letter drafted by Donald Fehr, the head of the MLBPA. In the letter, sent to all the NHL's players and their agents, Fehr says his union backs the NHLPA's battle against the imposition of a salary cap.

"We understand how difficult it can be and we know how long it can last. But we also know what is at stake," Fehr wrote.

"There is nothing more central to players' rights in professional team sports than maintaining a free market. Baseball players know this better than anyone else does."

The NHL and MLB are the only two major professional sports that do not have a salary cap. The NBA has had one since 1983 and the NFL has had one since 1994.

According to ESPN, both the NHLPA and MLBPA have refused to comment on the memo.

The NHL's owners locked out the players two weeks ago, delaying the start of the hockey season.

According to the players, the owners are determined to impose a salary cap which the NHLPA simply refuses to accept. The players say the marketplace should determine salaries.

The NHL denies it covets a salary cap, instead asking only for "cost certainty."

Bettman is looking for an agreement that would see a 60-40 split of player expenditures and revenue that is more in line with the three other major North American sports leagues.

The two sides haven't met since early September and no new meetings have been scheduled. The owners and players are so far apart on the salary cap issue that many have speculated that labour dispute will wipe out the entire NHL season.

The last lockout, in 1994, lasted 104 days and a total of 468 games were lost. Play resumed Jan. 20, 1995.

Baseball has had eight labour stoppages over the last 30 years.

The last players' strike came in August of 1994 and wiped out the final 1 1/2 months of the regular season and the playoffs. It then delayed the start of the following campaign.

Baseball's collective bargaining agreement expires Dec. 17, 2006. Many believe that if NHLPA agrees to a cap, it could be more difficult for the baseball union to convince the owners not to demand one as well.

Although this article mentions not financial backing, it has been reported up here that there has been. If memory serves me right, it may even have been John Davidson out of NY who made that reference.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Thanks. That was very interesting.