Poor Daytime Reponse - Solutions?

[trangmoe]

The AP story that ran today provided a light but accurate picture of the problem we have but stops short of suggesting any real solutions:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=35538

Has anyone taken on the problem and failed/succeeded?

We've considered Pay for Response, Mutual Aid Agreements, Reponse Schedules etc. but haven't moved forward with any of them yet. Would love to hear what others think.

Greg Trangmoe
Stevensville, MT VFD

[jboczek]

We think we made a step in the right direction with an automatic aid agreement with a neighboring dept. They seem to always have a crew ready to respond. We only did it for structure fires, but we can also call them for others through our mutual aid agreement.
Paying per call won't help - we're paid on call. Our people work out of our district so when they're at work they're not available, at least for the most part. Some can leave work, but they're 15 minutes away.
We've considered duty crews for weekends, especially since we put a don't-come-if-you've-been-drinking policy on the books. We're still working on that one.
All in all, auto aid is the way to go.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Automatic aid or regionalization are the most effective tools. Paying people won't work if there are no people to pay. How do you pay businesses? Tax credits? Rebates? This will not take the place of a non-revenue producing employee. They just want the person there.

I think that you all have to realize two things:

1. Lack of a daytime response is NOT a negative reflection on the department. It is inevitable.

2. It is 2004. People and business owners do not care like they did 40 years ago. It is a different world.

[fdmhbozz]

I agree completely with George. We are in a different time than the days when everyone worked in the town they lived in. A lot of small communities have turned into bedroom communities, where there are very few businesses to employ the residents.

[Dalmatian90]

Here's the full article -- the AP one was an abridged version of a story from Sunday's Worcester Telegram & Gazette:

Daytime staffing cause for alarm

Fire departments feel the pinch



Spencer Fire Chief Robert P. Parsons and other area chiefs depend on call firefighters, but the response during the day is a problem. (T&G Staff / DAN GOULD)
Enlarge photo


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SPENCER- When a fire is reported in this community of more than 12,000 people, Fire Chief Robert P. Parsons knows some of his on-call firefighters will respond.

But just how many will turn out, especially in the daytime, is another story.

As in many other towns across the state, the number of firefighters able to answer daytime alarms is often very small.

The situation in Spencer ``is no different than any other community out there today,'' the chief said. ``We are an active department, with about 305 calls for the year so far, and we are going (on calls) quite a bit.'' Finding enough people to respond to minor calls, such as false alarms and other non-fire incidents, is the main problem in Spencer, he said.

The number of firefighters responding to such calls is often low ``because they (firefighters) cannot leave work readily or their employers only allow them to leave if it's a full-blown fire,'' he said.

In addition, he said, Spencer has become a bedroom community, where many people work out-of-town, further reducing the pool of available personnel. Chief Parsons is the town's only full-time firefighter. On a recent very busy day during which the department had several calls for minor incidents, he had to jump in and drive a firetruck on a call because only three or four firefighters responded to the alarm.

``It's a growing issue throughout the country with volunteer and call firefighters,'' he said. Several other Worcester County fire chiefs confirmed that daytime response is a major problem in their communities, too.

According to Jonathan Plante, a regional vice president of the Massachusetts Call-Volunteer Firefighters Association, the situation in Worcester County mirrors conditions in most parts of the state. In most of Massachusetts, except for the Boston metropolitan area and some other large cities, firefighting is a part-time operation, he said.

Most small to medium-size cities and towns rely on volunteers or on-call firefighters for fire protection. According to its Web site, the association represents 6,300 paid on-call and volunteer firefighters in 202 towns.

Chief Parsons said he understands why employers are often hesitant to let their on-call firefighter employees leave to answer calls.

``Employers are trying to make a living. They can't afford to let a guy leave for five or six hours during the daytime,'' he said.

``It's a gamble,'' said Barre Fire Chief Joseph A. Rogowski, that town's only full-time firefighter. ``Every time the alarm comes in, you wonder if you are going to have enough people show up to do the job,'' he said.

Chief Rogowski has five firefighters who work for the town's Water Department and Department of Public Works on whom he can call when an alarm comes in.

``But when that happens,'' he said, ``it kind of shuts down the Water and Highway departments.''

Voters in some communities have approved increased funding to hire full-time paid firefighters to cover daytime shifts, but that is the exception and not the rule, according to Mr. Plante, a 15-year veteran of the Leicester Fire Department.

Also, hiring full-time firefighters does not automatically guarantee good response, according to Sturbridge Fire Chief Leonard E. Senecal, whose department has both full-time and on-call firefighters.

``If the ambulance is out with two people on it and you get a fire call, you might get eight guys (responding) or you might get two guys, you don't know. We are definitely short-handed during the daytime,'' he said.

Recruiting is another problem, the chief said.

``People don't want to go through all the training for this job. They want to spend more time at home with their families,'' he said.

Volunteer or on-call fire departments are likely to remain the way most communities in the state manage their fire service, according to Mr. Plante. These systems provide good fire protection at a cost taxpayers are willing to pay, he explained.

``I can always provide the level of service people are willing to pay for,'' Chief Rogowski said. ``If they want a firetruck and five men right at their door, I can provide that, but it comes at a price.''

Believing that volunteer and on-call fire departments are here to say, the call-volunteer association is seeking help through the state Legislature to encourage volunteer and on-call firefighters to stay on the job, he said.

They are pushing for a series of proposals, including a law providing retirement benefits as a reward for time in service, real estate tax relief for active volunteer and on-call firefighters, and reimbursement for successfully completed college courses. He said the association believes that these kinds of incentives will attract people willing to go through the arduous two-year training cycle required to become a firefighter and to remain on the job for many years.

Increased federal aid, which some fire chiefs say is one way to improve daytime response, can be a two-edged sword, according to Mr. Plante. While the amounts of money being talked about in Congress sound impressive, he said, the amount of federal assistance that ``filters down'' to individual fire departments might not be all that significant.

On the other hand, he said, there does seem to be a recognition at the federal level, at agencies such as Homeland Security for example, that small-town fire departments are an important part of the response to terrorism.

According to the National Volunteer Fire Council, some 73 percent of the nation's 1.1 million firefighters -- or 880,000 -- are volunteers. Mr. Plante said on-call and volunteer fire departments protect about three-fourths of the country and about half of the nation's population. Last year voters in Auburn approved a Proposition 21/2 override to pay for eight additional full-time firefighters to augment the town's on-call force.

Concern about the number of firefighters available during the day led to the decision to seek the override, according to Chief William A. Whynot.

The town also has a co-operative program with WPI in Worcester in which a few students in the college's fire science program live in the West Auburn station during the school year. The on-call student firefighters are available when not in class, he said.

``I am in relatively good shape now, because I have between five and eight people on duty 24 hours a day, seven days a week,'' Chief Whynot said. But even with his contingent of full-time firefighters ready to respond to calls, the town must rely on its on-call force for backup, the chief said.

``According to the National Fire Protection Association, for a fire in a single room in a house you need about 16 people on the scene to cover all the things that need to be done,'' he said. Chief Whynot said the Worcester Cold Storage and Warehouse Co. fire, which took the lives of six Worcester firefighters, and the attacks on the World Trade Center, have changed the way fire departments look at fires.

``If there is no life hazard -- if there is no one in the building -- and we do not have enough people on the scene, we are not going to commit them to doing an aggressive interior attack. It's not worth killing people,'' he said.

While most fire chiefs expressed concern about daytime response, Chief Michael Gauthier of Grafton said his department has not had to face the issue.

``I have a pretty good response during the day. It's due to a lot of support from town businesses that allow our firefighters to respond during the day,'' he said.

``They (the businesses) look at it as a community service, and it saves them money in the long run on taxes,'' he said, because the town is able to maintain an on-call, rather than full-time, department.

Chief Gauthier said other fire chiefs are amazed at the situation in Grafton.

``Everybody looks at me and says, `I don't know how you do it, but keep up the good work,' '' he said.

John Fleck became Lancaster's full-time fire chief four weeks ago. Concerns about daytime response to fires was brought to his attention shortly after he signed on, he said.

``I've made a commitment to try, in every way possible, to increase that,'' he said. A former call firefighter who later became a full-time firefighter before joining the state fire marshal's office, Chief Fleck said daytime response ``is a huge problem across the state.''

Like the other chiefs, he said more and more people who could become on-call firefighters are working out-of-town and are not available during the day.

He also believes there has been a change of attitude about volunteering. Fire departments in many communities have experienced a substantial increase in the number of calls they answer each year, he said.

``When you go to a business and ask permission that the (on-call) firefighter or EMT be released in the event of a call, it has a negative effect on the business, because that employee is not available, due to them responding more often,'' he said.

Chief Fleck believes more and more towns will be forced to hire full-time firefighters to guarantee good daytime response.

``I have told the selectmen that it should be totally unacceptable to have a delayed response to a 911 call (because of manpower problems),'' he said. If this happens, he said, it is time to consider hiring some full-time people.

Lancaster's situation is unique in that half of the on-call force does not live in town.

``It does cause delayed response,'' he said. The chief said he is considering paying some of his on-call firefighters to work daytime shifts in order to make sure there are enough personnel in town to respond to emergency calls.

[mcaldwell]

I agree that money won't solve that one.

A local bedroom community out here had a similar problem a few years back. They had lots of nighttime response, but everyone worked out of town during the day.

The did have good mutual aid agreements, but in the end they did a publicity and recruiting drive amonst the local business owners. There were dozens of small resort/tourist businesses in town that had hands on owners, and enough support staff to let them leave.

It did work in encouraging some of these people to volunteer, and since they were the boss, they made the rules regarding when and who could leave. Some even encouraged a few of thier employees to volunteer too. It did mean more people to train, and a little more gear to buy, but if that is your only option...

Just another idea to consider if you are experiencing the same problem. :)

[hwoods]

When are people (US, or more correctly, those of you that need more Volunteers) Going to understand that there is a different world out there. Unless you are more than a couple of hours away from a large city, most employed people tend not to work anywhere near home. This means recruiting a different type of person. There ARE people in your community that could become Volunteers, you just have to go find them. We find them by going door to door. It's not Rocket Science, just print up a one page (or less) letter that explains Volunteering, then load up the apparatus and hit the street. Do this on weekends, when everybody (almost) is home, AND attend EVERY possible event in your community with the same message. We are aggressive in being out and about in our community, and it pays off. We average 3 inquiries per week, with about 3 per month actually putting in applications. One more time: YOU HAVE TO GO OUT IN THE COMMUNITY AND RECRUIT!!

[cellblock]

I voted for Mutual Aid agreements. Regionalization needs to be encouraged. It makes no scense to page out a volunteer department with a delayed response and not page out a neighboring paid department at the same time to assist.
Example: Thursday afternoon I was pulling up at our Main station when a neighboring Parish (county) paged a department near us to a motorist pulled over on the side of the road possibly having a heart attack. He was reportably on the highway which runs past our station and on the Parish/Fire District line. The FD paged was an all vollie department with First Responders responding from home. Meanwhile, just 2 miles up the road we sat with 2 paid and 2 vollies at the station wondering if we'd get called to respond since it was on the district line. NOPE. We called our dispatch but the patient had used a cell phone which sent the 911 call to the neighboring district and they didn't consider sending us. We listened to the scanner as their units drove more than 6 miles from their station to the edge of their district. We were closer, had paid and vollie responders at the station and could have been on scene in half the time. But political bounderies and a leadership which has not encouraged or embraced the mutual aid that we could have available has resulted in delayed responces and manpower shortages in our coverage area.

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by hwoods
We average 3 inquiries per week, with about 3 per month actually putting in applications.

Harve no disrespect intended but are these local people inquiring and filling out apps or is it people from other areas who know how many structure fires there are in PG County?

I think if my department ran a working fire every couple of days it would be easy to recruit and retain people.

When we go a week between calls and both of them are BS not-really an emergency EMS calls it tends to dampen the initial enthusiasm.

(I'm not necessarily saying this is right, just how it is.)

[Waterman27]

Small response area, all volunteer, 100 calls a year, 50% of those car accidents, rural/bedroom communities. Automatic mutual aid agreements work for us; 3 departments will almost always give us 6-8 people within the first 10 minutes and a fully involved structure fire will have 25 people within half an hour as they return from their out of town workplaces.

One thing has not been brought into the discussion yet; we need to recognize that limited daytime response is probably here to stay and departments can do at least three things to make the situation more acceptable:
A. Train for what you have, with emphasis on the First Five Minutes and Limited Manpower Response. Use all the shortcuts you can, like preconnects and the Minuteman hoselay.
B. Preplan. It's not very exciting, but it sure is comforting when the call comes in and you know where it is, whether or not you have to drop your 4" hose, where your nearest water supply is and if there is an exposure which needs protecting if the wind is from the north.
C. Plan to buy equipment and apparatus that is suited for limited response, such as a quick response vehicle or CAFS, which is proving to be a formidible firefighting tool.
Read, research and find out what is working for others.

Our department sometimes feels like it has become two departments in one, with disagreement between the limited daytime response and the nighttime/full response groups concerning training, equipment needs, SOPs and future planning for the department. It's not too serious, but it makes for some interesting discussions.

[hwoods]

Originally posted by WTFD10


Harve no disrespect intended but are these local people inquiring and filling out apps or is it people from other areas who know how many structure fires there are in PG County?

I think if my department ran a working fire every couple of days it would be easy to recruit and retain people.

When we go a week between calls and both of them are BS not-really an emergency EMS calls it tends to dampen the initial enthusiasm.

(I'm not necessarily saying this is right, just how it is.)

An honest question. These are "local" people in the sense that they are in or near our area, not coming from out of state. We've had a few inquiries from persons out of state over the years, but only a couple actually joined, and they didn't last. We just had an experience where someone from a New England state came to look at our operation, and decided that we're not the bowl of cherries that he was looking for. We're a bit far out for College Students (U of Md) Even more difficult with no public transportation. We've had folks join from Anne Arundel County, which is 8 miles to the East of us. I've gotten the impression that they looked at A.A. County's Volunteer opportunities, and thought we had more to offer. A gentleman from Ohio came to ride with me one night (He was in town on business) and I think he headed back to Ohio with quite an ear/eyefull. We do enjoy visitors, so if you're in the Baltimore/Washington DC area, Look us up.

[Dalmatian90]

1. Develop your SOPs/Training to build up from low-turnout to full turnout.

Your strategic & tactical priorities stay the same, but you've got to be cognizant what you can safely accomplish and what is the very, very most important items v. really-good-to-do but not necessarily needed.

Focusing your efforts isn't something limited to little rural fire departments -- I'm thinking of the example of FDNY teaming up 2 Engine Companies when necessary to put the first line in operation quickly, rather than being slower to get 2 lines going.

Look at the fire, decide what's the very single most important thing to accomplish, and focus your limited resources on that.

2. Invest in technology. Yes, I know not everyone has the money, but do the best you can with what you have.

Technology can be anything from a Carlin Valve so you don't have to leave a man at a hydrant, to things to help return to service faster like 6000psi cascade systems so you don't spend a long time filling SCBA bottles from a compressor, to having fuel at the station so the firefighters don't have to spend another 20 minutes driving to the town garage and back to refuel afterwards.

Technology also includes things to make operations go faster/easier -- like side dumps on tankers. Remember Large Diameter Hose vastly outperforms tankers in GPM per Man, Dollars Invested, and Trucks used so if you have water sources within a mile or so of most of your structures and you need big flows there -- better to lay one line than run a dozen tankers each needing a driver, plus more guys to run fill & dump sites.

CAFS is another important technology -- if you use 1/3 or less of the water you used to, that in most scenarios helps free up manpower from water supply to operations/overhaul.

3. Remember what we're here for.

Firefighting isn't rocket science. But you can get overwhelmed with limited people/training time with all the different things we can train for and/or prepare for. Train for the buildings & scenarios you have, and train to recognize scenarios you need to back off from, or use extreme care & careful thought. Fires, "Standard" Rescues like Motor Vehicle Accidents, and EMS are the bread-and-butter of rural america. Until you're able to do those effectively, don't go off on tangents.

4. Try to fit people in within reason.

You don't need 100% interior qualified members. You need people who can learn how and operate basic equipment, who follow direction, and can remember/follow SOPs. Members who are "exterior-only" drivers & assistants can help you put your few interior guys where they need to be, instead of on the road running a truck.

5. Look to alternate staffing.

Does your community have resources, like a Highway Department, that can be enlisted to serve in at least supporting roles like as apparatus drivers?

6. Work together and call for help early and often.

Don't be afraid to use mutual aid aggressively -- my area is rural, but we're far from remote so we can pull stations in quickly to help make up for lack of staffing. Our 1st Alarm includes 2 other stations on automatic mutual aid for reported structure fires 24x7 -- way overkill for a typical evening fire, but it gets enough resources for the day.

Although not our district (it was the other in town), I was on the 1st line inside at an 8:30am fire this past winter. Putting that line in operation took 4 firefighters from three seperate departments. Eventually any of those departments had enough manpower to do it alone, but without automatic aid you would've had several more minutes delay.

7. Don't piss off people over **** that doesn't matter.

Be efficient, have a process for accepting new members that work. Keep your department focused on how to be the best organization it can, not on how you can piss in the cheerios of that other fire company down the road. Listen to the troops, compromise when it's reasonable, hold your line when it's the logical thing to do -- and realize that while you can't please everyone all the time, most people also will respect consistency and reason when they see it.

Discipline is important, but discipline also has to be for reasonable rules & regulations...not stifling rules like if you can't do interior, you can't do anything; or you're expected to attend all calls and if your boss doesn't let you out, you can't join. Most of all it can be for reasons of "we don't like you."

[stm4710]

Money will solve alot of issues in this area. There are alot of POC depts that can not put people on because they simply can not afford the training and the $1500-2000 to equip a new firefighter that may only be around 3 weeks nad just quit.:(

[pete892]

As HWoods said, check out your community. Do you have people that work 2nd or 3rd shift. You might have to run daytime training for them but they would be available. How about people in your community that could leave their jobs for a fire. Check out your school janitors. Often they can leave except during lunch period. Their time card shows "community service time" and they are not docked pay but are expected to get their job done without overtime.

Check out the self-employed (that's what I was and is). Often they can leave and just get the work done later. I have worked a lot of Saturdays and Sundays to get stuff done because I went to a fire on Friday.

Don't neglect women. You may find some that are available during the day especially while the kids are in school.

Get out their and recruit.

Stay safe,

Pete

[trangmoe]

First of all thx for all of the response as this is very pressing issue in our department right now.

RE: mutual aid

I'm concerned that by getting into mutual aid aggreements we just shift more problems onto to neighboring departments and in return take on some of their problems. We're already in the situation that the few daytime responders we have are called out frequently and adding calls from other departments only increases their work load and the sacrifice by their employers. It's one thing to let your employees go to calls in your town but another to let them go to calls to other areas. It seems like a recipe for burning out the few good responders/businesses we have. Businesses in other districts would probably feel the same way about their employees respondind to our calls.

Secondly mutual aid responses are frought with politics and in-fighting regardless of where you are and while I think it can be overcome I'd prefer a more self-sufficient solution.

Overall my feeling is that recruitement and business relations are probably the long term solution but that's easier said than done.

[neiowa]

I'm working on an economic development project. One of the points of consideration for a new company receiving finanical support to expand/relocate here is how they will support the community (Fire Dept specifically). I'm working all aspects of ISO with goal of requesting an ISO eval soon (we are ISO9/10). Econ dev contract clause is that new business will be expected/required to have at least one qualified daytime employee active, in good standing with FD. Just one more contract clause, Section 1-A-2.3, buried in the econ dev package, not negotiable, there it is. Dept will, of course, pay for training and equip. Req training complete as FF1 within 9 months, have yet not decided if will require FF2 or EMT. Big deal require multiple members, particularily if high fire hazard (need a fire dept on site).

Your local econ developer may well give you a bunch of BS about scareing off a potential "contact". BS, "get your simple mind outside of the box Mr. Econdev". The subject is not even on the table until the new company has already decided on your community. Falls under heading of "OTHER" in the contract anyhow. Counterpoint is "the ISO rating determines the cost of your fire insurance me businessman, support the FD please". Heck, propose housing a truck at their facility and you get manning credit for the time your new firefighter is on the clock at his day job, they get credit for insurance. If the company balks at supporting the community that tells everyone much about the company you're bending over in order to bring them to town.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

That's an interesting concept. But I think you will find that there are states where courts have ruled that tying conditions to development projects is illegal. I know that in NJ, requiring a developer to build a school, build a fire station or things like that have been knocked down in court many times. You can ask, but you can't require it.

I don't for one minute think that this is right. A housing development may present a significant challenge to the school system. Why shouldn't they be required to invest in school infrastructure or personnel?

If it works for you, you are very fotunate.

[Dalmatian90]

The difference may be George is that in neiowa's case, they're offering a financial package.

I can see the Courts saying just because you're building X doesn't mean you have to supply Y...but in this case you're receiving money/discounts in return for _________.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90
The difference may be George is that in neiowa's case, they're offering a financial package.

I can see the Courts saying just because you're building X doesn't mean you have to supply Y...but in this case you're receiving money/discounts in return for _________.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong with this either. But a developer is not in business to build a community. He is in busines to make money. And, at least around here, they will cut every corner they can.

The economic redevelopment angle is a good one. I like it.

[DrParasite]

your missing one crucial option. PAY PEOPLE!!!! and not on an on call basis, but as a full time job. don't want to have full time firefighters? how about staffing an engine company with 4 guys from 6am to 6pm (or whatever you want the daytime shift to be)? don't have the call volume to support a paid daytime engine? that's cool. what about your town, and every town that you share a border with. combine all your call totals. you think maybe then you have the numbers to justify it?

of you want to stay all vol, that's understandable. what about your fire prevention beureau? you know the fire inspector, fire official/marshal, and code enforcement officer? aren't they employees of the town/district? don't they usually work during the daytime? Many are also firefighters somewhere. if they aren't send them to FF1. buy them gear, train them on your trucks. yeah, you might not get enough for a full crew, but if you get a fire inspector, the fire marshal, and two college volunteers showing up, well, you got a full crew.

auto aid works, but remember, it's still going to take them a while to get to the scene, especially if they aren't in the station and they still have to go from their district to yours. even permitting crews to "offer assisstance", even if not requested, help, because you know they have a crew and can be out the door in a minute.

[jboczek]

Dan, I don't know what part of the world you live in, but my fire district covers some 100 square miles, that includes 4 small towns and a TOTAL population of about 2500. We're at our maximum tax rate and our budget is around $65,000 a year. If we can hire 4 full time FFs for that, plus pay for the new truck, insurance, and, yes, the attorney fees, show me how its done. It absolutly, positively cannot be done and there's no point in even considering such a thing.

[DrParasite]

Jack, your right, hiring people to be daytime firefighters isn't always practical. that's why you hire people for other jobs, and have them respond to calls while they are come in. does your town have a fire marshal or fire inspectors? most do, especially for commercial inspections. what about the public works employees? are they members? can they leave work to answer calls?

something needs to be done. if your budget is too small, then maybe you need to ask your town for a larger budget. start with a paid driver, and then expand if you need to. at then you would know an engine was rolling.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I wish my town had a maximum tax rate. I think our maximum tax rate is however many zeroes the tax collector can write before his arm gets tired.

[hwoods]

There ARE things that can be done, working with development and real estate people. For at least 10 years, I've been going to zoning board hearings to learn what I can about proposed development in our area. Long time? sure, but it's beginning to pay off. Our new Pierce Engine will be here in about 3 weeks, and part of the funding for it came from contributions from Developers. I usually have something to say, for the record, in any zoning case in our area that will result in new homes or businesses. My general approach is to let everyone know at the first hearing that we need to sit down with the principals in the development, and discuss some concerns that we have. Besides outright contributions to the Apparatus Replacement Plan, we gain a lot of little things that are a big help to us. Walk into any model home in our area, and among the builders maps and drawings is a simple 1 page letter from the Fire Department. Briefly, we explain that we're Volunteers, and what that means to prospective homebuyers, and how you should act if you buy in our area.:D We've also been able to get a lot of changes in the County's development regs, such as House Numbers MUST be visible at 3 AM, in the rain, from the middle of the street. We also got some trees and shrubs banned from median planting areas, (our Trucks were being beat up by overhanging limbs from trees planted between the sidewalk and the street). Now, there must be 15 feet clear from the asphalt to first limb that comes out over the street. Cul-De-Sac areas MUST be large enough to allow our Seagrave Tower to swing around and leave without backing up. It's been a long time, but the payoff is worth it.

[neiowa]

Originally posted by hwoods
There ARE things that can be done, working with development and real estate people. For at least 10 years, I've been going to zoning board hearings to ......

From general interest standpoint, I'm working from the opposite end of the world from you. What success do you have getting the developers or water co to install properly sized water/hydrant system vs 1/2 assed potable system + maybe little extra for FD? Main size of ____? Flows to meet ISO+? Hydrants at AWWA/ISO 500ft spacing etc? Put in big mains with room for growth or undersized poor grade PVC pipe?

From my research on the issue many gov't (and/or private) water depts have no interest in FD view of the world or of fire industry standards. Or the FD does not know what they need or bother to talk to the water utility.

My particualar issue is install of a water system in my community by a USDA funded/controlled "Rural Water District" Their plan was 4" or 6" transmission line to town and 2" and 3" distribution "flushing hydrants. Would not allow us to increase line size (if we can up with the $) or install hydrants per standard. Yeah, and entire regional project paid for with several million in CDBG and USDA (taxpayer) grant and loan $ (left over out of control clinton program). USDA says no hydrants, we told them to go away. Only one water system will every go in the ground, do it right, we don't want an obsolete 1890 system design. So going to have to do it the hard way. We presently have very good quality/volume from private wells by 15 mi round trip to the closest "real" hydrant.


On associated note, can anyone provide, you personally saw it yourself, example of collapsing a water main (6"+ main) using soft suction from a hydrant? Rural Water maintains no pumpers hooked to their system as will destroy the system, granted they use thinwall junk PVC but what collases first, suction hose or the main. I believe the suction hose. Seems to be a lot of opinion floating around with no basis in fact. I've gotten opinons on both sides of the issue from every those in every water job you can imagine; design engineer, system operator, USDA/Rural water bozos, FD. No one I've talked to that claims you can collapse the main with soft suction has every seen it happen, or can tell me where/how it happened.

[hwoods]

Thankfully, I don't have any kind of problems from the Water System. We are served by a Multi Jurisdiction Water Authority that is, as far as I know, world class. No Plastic Pipes, Mostly 8 inch mains on residential side streets, with distribution from mains that range all the way up to 8 FEET in diameter. Hydrants are spaced very well, usually we never lay more that a few hundered feet of hose out. One hydrant in a commercial area that we use for training is capable of flowing well over 3,000 GPM. Tillerman25, Care to weigh in with any corrections from the Southside??

Now, to the other issue. I would strongly advise you all to go ballistic, politically speaking, and stop that exercise in stupidity. Start bombarding your Senators, Congressman, Governor, and so forth on down to the local level. Go to the Press and Radio/TV folks as well. This is a case where installing a water system will make things worse, as people get that false sense of security. You could try getting some help from ISO, NFPA, NVFC, and other groups to show that the proposed system is worthless before it's installed.

[Dalmatian90]

No one I've talked to that claims you can collapse the main with soft suction has every seen it happen, or can tell me where/how it happened.

How it's been to explained to me:

The concerns are not common, but real. The larger concern, before pipes collapse, is that you'll suck contaminates into the system through what are normally small leaks when under pressure.

But here's a scenario where you can collapse pipes, but still have a firm "soft suction" coming into your truck.

Water gains .434 psi / foot of elevation drop.

Say you're pumping from a point 100' below the high point in the pipe feeding your hydrant. From the effects of gravity alone you have 43.4 more psi available than you do at the top of the hill.

That gain in pressure from elevation drop *may* be more than the friction loss in the pipe for that flow. Indeed, it *may* even be dramatic enough that although you perceive residual pressure on the pumper intake, the high point of the pipe is in a vacuum state.

Whether this actually happens can be affected by many, many things and figuring it all out is why people earn "PE" stamps to certify water system designs, and why they like to maintain 20psi residuals even when in theory you wouldn't damage the pipes right nearby.

Because of the siphon effect, even though you have a vacuum at the top of the hill, water still flows, and you still have residual pressure at the pump. So you're pumping happily were you are, no danger to the pipes near you...meanwhile somewhere somewhat remote on the system a vacuum has developed and it's a question of if the pipe can withstand the forces trying to crush it now...

I tried adding the FL calcs for pipe into my hydraulics spreadsheet, but it's taking longer than I have time in the office right now...anyway, I hope that explains the situation better.

BTW...we're in a similiar albeit slightly better boat. We have essentially a 3 mile dead-end water main, although it is 16". To get 1500gpm out of it, we end up taking that sucker down into the 5-10psi range.

[neiowa]

Originally posted by hwoods
Now, to the other issue. I would strongly advise you all to go ballistic, politically speaking, and stop that exercise in stupidity. Start bombarding your Senators, Congressman, Governor, and so forth on down to the local level. Go to the Press and Radio/TV folks as well. This is a case where installing a water system will make things worse, as people get that false sense of security. You could try getting some help from ISO, NFPA, NVFC, and other groups to show that the proposed system is worthless before it's installed.

Been thru every route possible and still working. Have gotten nowhere. No-one wants to get involved as little political payoff. USDA traditionally (hire help_ in each state does it's own thing. Little/no oversite from DC. Has been going on for years. Classic big org vs little/disorganized guys. In this corner we have $26million fed project to HELP the po people out and here we have a town of 132 people that want to spend the $ responsibly. I'm not really interested having my water dependent on a big "nonprofit" located 100mi away (vs city owned system).

The only material that is going to be used is PVC, issue is what grade/size. Debatable that Iron is actually superior and MUCH more expensive to install.

[jboczek]

This didn't start out as a water supply thread, but since it has been mentioned, I'll add a little. The biggest concern with going under 20 psi is that contamination could enter the potable water system if it does goes below that. I don't think PVC will collapse unless one heck of a vacuum is put to it. They use PVC on dry hydrants around here and it takes a vacuum to suck the water out of the pond. PVC works well for them. The real problem is contamination. And, yes, Rural Development has never wanted to fund fire protection. We put a wate system in almost 30 years ago and they said the same thing - we're putting in drinking water and not fire protection water. That's why my home town has miles of 3" and 4" mains that flow a max of 400 gpm. We make do with what we've got.

Getting back to daytime staffing. We don't have a fire marshall or inspector, that's the volunteer's job. Public works? That's me in 2 of the towns and the other 2 we serve have only 1 guy on their payrolls each. I do agree that almost any fire dept. or district could figure out a way to hire at least one person during the day, might as well make it the chief. We could do it, even on our meager budget. There's more than enough for 1 person to do if the dept. wants things done right. That would help considerably. Will it happen? Probably not until the people that control the purse strings have a change of attitude and quit saying "...but we've always done it that way". Ever hear that before?

[hfdgrp17]

From reading everyones threads it sounds like the usual problem with EVERY fire department accross this Great Nation. Poor (at best) staffing. I have a question to post and possibably an idea (not an answer or I wouldn't be a fireman). Of all the departments that have responded or are in the same crisis - career or volunteer. Who has used the AMBULANCE as a selling point to attempt for more personnel?

Everyone knows that the memory of the general public is shorter than an alzhimers patient in a game show. When you ask for fire fighting equipement, training, vehicles and yes personnel there are always those in the community that raise the question as to 'WHY does the fire department need THAT....?' We're familar with what I'm speaking about aren't we? However, for those of us who do run the ambulance when an issue as to EMS comes up then rarely is a question raised.

Maybe we should change our focus for those of us who are having such trouble recruiting prople and gaining cooperation from the buisness community. By placing emphasis on the EMS needs of the community maybe those who are reluctant to release people from work would think twice. After all, it could be mother having the heart attack or stroke or, it's difficult to look at a patron and explain why you couldn't let an employee free for the car wreck with injury accross the street.

Like I stated before it's just an idea and not an answer. What ever path a particular department chooses I wish them the greatest luck. After all, as we know there is never enough help.

[TruckSkipper]

If you pay them they will come.