WWYD: Ladder 49

[WTFD10]

In the interest of not hijacking the other thread:

Originally posted by Weruj1
I did not really want to say this as I think it may turn into a crap storm and thats not fair to the thread............but .......Moe, let us all be real........think about that first scene.....would we really send crews into that building ? Really, would we? I say not and pick a corner and let the thing fall into the harbor, but if that was the case, we would not have had a pretty darn good movie to watch.

I realize this was entertainment and not a training film but we do scenarios on here all the time so why not this one.

Josh I believe I would send crews into that fire as per the risk/benefit analysis: We will risk a lot to save lives.

If the building was empty (risk a little to save property)or was more involved in fire (risk nothing for that which is already lost) that's a different story.

[ff7134]

I will say that we discussed this Saturday at the station. We all agreed that yes, with people still in side we would enter to make a search. But their would be no real interior suppression going on.

As for trying to search for a downed firefighter, just try and keep me out of their!!!! I can't imagine any firefighter really saying the heck with that guy stuck inside. It is easy to say that when its a movie and its not someone you know.

[DennisTheMenace]

I don't see where you can really question going in when there are people inside, that is what the job is. But the fire in the abandoned row house where they lost a guy on the roof cave in, that would be a situation where maybe you wait for a bucket to vent the roof from.

[SQUADLOO]

Baltimore City Fire Department has a reputation for conducting aggressive interior operations. To wait for a Bucket for roof operations....You would grow Old considering the movie is based in Baltimore City not known for many costly Tower ladders. So the fire would walk down the street if we were to wait. Sometimes in a vacant rowhome you may just save the life of a homeless person just trying to stay warm....Does he or she or their children deserve any less an effort.....After all, most Americans are only 2 paychecks away from such a fate.....

[DennisTheMenace]

Originally posted by SQUADLOO
Baltimore City Fire Department has a reputation for conducting aggressive interior operations. To wait for a Bucket for roof operations....You would grow Old considering the movie is based in Baltimore City not known for many costly Tower ladders. So the fire would walk down the street if we were to wait. Sometimes in a vacant rowhome you may just save the life of a homeless person just trying to stay warm....Does he or she or their children deserve any less an effort.....After all, most Americans are only 2 paychecks away from such a fate..... Doesn't Truck 1 still have their huge Seagrave articulated boom truck? I thought there were a few of them around the City as well. Should not be that long of a wait for one to get there on a reported working fire. You go into a vacant building that is involved like that ONLY if there are reports or signs that someone really is in there. We take risks, but they need to be calculated ones.

Unfortuantely you are correct, too many of our fellow Americans are too averse to saving and too spendy with the credit.

[CJMinick390]

Truck 1 (the snorkel) has been replaced by a Seagrave rearmount straight stick. The snorkel is now in reserve for special call only. All of the Sutphen towers from the 80's have been retired. As to searching "abandoned" row homes, I think you will find that it is common practice for any city fire department. You can't assume that no one is in the occupancy, and you're not going to find anyone in a lot of these neighborhoods who will tell you anything. Are you as aggressive as you would be when you have confirmed victims? Probably not. Are you going to conduct a search? Yes.

This goes along with a WWYD thread posted by Lt229 of FDNY not to long ago. Even though the house had the windows boarded up, all the city guys who responded to that thread would have searched the house and conducted interior operations. Guys from suburban departments suggested things be done a little differently. What you do and the tactics you employ are based on your experiences and area of operation. On size does not fit all.

[SQUADLOO]

Well said Chris!

[DennisTheMenace]

Too bad about the Snorkle, I loved watching that thing rumble by on my way to the Ballpark.

I see what you are saying about the abondoned buildings, and agree that when the risk is contained a search is definately needed, but once a structure is as involved as the one in the movie appeared, would you still make an aggresive search without signs of souls inside?

[SQUADLOO]

You must remember the Brother who fell thru the roof in the movie did so conducting ventilation for the Brothers below making entry. He was not conducting a search.

[upinflames60]

I don't see making an entry in a building that was involed the way that the one in the movie was. A firefighters life is just as valuable as the persons inside. I know saving lives and property is our job but is suicide?..... As far as the rescue atempt to save the down firefighter.. I have taken a few HTR classes and everyone that i have taken one thing has been stressed. That is not to get caught up on one idea. You can't get tunnel vison.. if one way doesn't work then try another...... Just my opinions.

[SQUADLOO]

I don't think the truckies in the movie were aware how well involved the fire was below them. They were on the roof of the rowhome before the plywood was removed from the windows. I understand and respect your point but sometimes in the city you get that type of fire so often, you can become complacent. Not that its a good thing, especially in this business. But we (Firefighters) are human and as so mistakes sometimes happen. Therefore we MUST learn from the tragedy or we are doomed to repeat it.......

[webteam]

Here are a few other 'cinematic mistakes' if you will:

1) In the scene where the floor collapses at the grain facility, Jaoquin's helmet comes off as he is falling, but then appears back on his head for a split second as he continues to fall.

2) During the response to the apartment fire in the snow, one of the responding shots is of a new pumper and a fully enclosed new tiller truck, instead of the actual units.

3) In the rope rescue scene, when they first arrive, the snorkel is nosed into the tiller truck right below the action. Then it disappears, then reappears in one of the final shots of that scene.

4) During the rope rescue scene, a "TV" news chopper slides in (ridiculously close) and gives a play by play. In reality, the chopper shown is a Baltimore City police helicopter.

I'm sure there are a few more like this, but for a film as complex as this, only a few really stand out as 'film' mistakes.

Personally, I thought one of the really accurate scenes was Jaoquin's first fire....funny as heck forgetting the helmet, having trouble with the hose...and Baltimore I'm sure has no shortage of rats in those kinda homes.

Be sure to read the article interviewing the film's technical advisor. You'll find that many things you think were 'mistakes' such as not wearing hoods and such were more 'things that veterans' would do after years on the job.

While plenty of references were made to 9/11, the film's ending is actually significantly more similiar to what happens in Worcester, Mass. in 1999. In the end, the incident commander there had to make the exceptionally tough decision to pull all firefighters out even though six firefighters (including two pairs of rescuers searching for the originally trapped firefighters ... who were searching for trapped homeless people), were still inside. In that real life case, the building was completely abandoned and only the reports of homeless people drove firefighters inside ... in the fictional case in the movie, the trapped occupants were workers inside.

6) In scenes like Jaoquin going off by himself, or Dennis falling through the roof because he stopped checking on the viability of the roof, those are mistakes that likely take place at fires across the country every day. If anything, should remind firefighters young and old not to take the ordinary "fire" or incident for granted. There are litterally hundreds of row homes in Balitmore like those depicted...vacant and boarded up...and usually someone is still living inside anyhow.

[Bones42]

falling through the roof because he stopped checking on the viability of the roof been there, done that, grabbed a ladder laying across the hole by instinct, learned the lesson well.
If anything, should remind firefighters young and old not to take the ordinary "fire" or incident for granted. :cool:

[mcaldwell]

Originally posted by webteam
Here are a few other 'cinematic mistakes' if you will:

2) During the response to the apartment fire in the snow, one of the responding shots is of a new pumper and a fully enclosed new tiller truck, instead of the actual units.

Remember EMERGENCY? You would often see two or three different versions of Engine and Squad 51 responding in the same episode. They were terrible for substituting out of date images like that.


Personally, I thought one of the really accurate scenes was Jaoquin's first fire....funny as heck forgetting the helmet, having trouble with the hose...and Baltimore I'm sure has no shortage of rats in those kinda homes.

And the ear to ear grin after the fire was pretty spot on too.:D


Be sure to read the article interviewing the film's technical advisor. You'll find that many things you think were 'mistakes' such as not wearing hoods and such were more 'things that veterans' would do after years on the job.

Exactly. I always thought that was exageration in movies too, but even recent reality shows like "The Bravest", etc., show that there are a lot of old guys that don't wear thier gear as per modern NFPA training. Backdraft and others go too far, but I still see old crusty guys pulling thier mask off and overhauling something that is stilll smoking like mad.


While plenty of references were made to 9/11, the film's ending is actually significantly more similiar to what happens in Worcester, Mass. in 1999.

My first sight of the building in the trailer for Ladder 49 immediately brought Worcester Cold Storage to mind. As I watched the movie, I could not help but think back and draw a few similarities to that incident. I am also reading Sean Flynn's "3000 Degrees" right now, and the real story's character development of Lt Mike McNamee, is hauntingly similar to the development of Travolta's character's in the movie.


6) In scenes like Jaoquin going off by himself, or Dennis falling through the roof because he stopped checking on the viability of the roof, those are mistakes that likely take place at fires across the country every day.

You know you're right, because those very accidents are still happening every year.:(

[42VTExplorer]

Remember EMERGENCY? You would often see two or three different versions of Engine and Squad 51 responding in the same episode. They were terrible for substituting out of date images like that.

All of the "responses" were made from clips of apparatus responding. Saved money and they could throw together a 3 minute response with a couple of different film strips...

[N2DFire]

Originally posted by webteam
1) In the scene where the floor collapses at the grain facility, Jaoquin's helmet comes off as he is falling, but then appears back on his head for a split second as he continues to fall.

Also - while lowering the victim - the rope is wrapped around the beam - but in the overhead shot as the floor gives way - the rope is only laying across the beam.

Originally posted by webteam
2) During the response to the apartment fire in the snow, one of the responding shots is of a new pumper and a fully enclosed new tiller truck, instead of the actual units.
Also you hear sirens but see no warning lights.

Originally posted by webteam
3) In the rope rescue scene, when they first arrive, the snorkel is nosed into the tiller truck right below the action. Then it disappears, then reappears in one of the final shots of that scene.

4) During the rope rescue scene, a "TV" news chopper slides in (ridiculously close) and gives a play by play. In reality, the chopper shown is a Baltimore City police helicopter.


During this same sequence - after the victim is "on rope" the number of 'biners goes from 1 to 2 then back to 1 in the various shots.

I'm sure I have more but I've only seen it twice so far.

All these movie flubs aside - I think it was overall a very good movie and will (hopefully) go a long way to showing Mr. & Mrs. John Q. what our jobs are really like.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by ff7134
As for trying to search for a downed firefighter, just try and keep me out of their!!!! I can't imagine any firefighter really saying the heck with that guy stuck inside. It is easy to say that when its a movie and its not someone you know. Talk to Chief McNamee (sp??) from Worcester about making that exact decision, except it was for 6 brothers, not just 1.