Haven't had one of these in awhile.....

[firenresq77]

STORY (http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=34512&sectionId=45)

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/images/1093452154197_25_ma5.jpg

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/images/1093452154259_25_ma6.jpg

[cellblock]

Ok, since my FD doesn't do roof work, horizontal venting only, I may not know exactly what I'm looking at but the first thing that came to mind was,
"Shouldn't those guys be wearing SCBA tanks while they're up there?"

I'm not criticising but just asking.

[ullrichk]

I would say SCBA would be a good call.

[firenresq77]

How about the guy without a helmet?? (2nd from the right)

[fdmhbozz]

In my academy class yesterday, we watched an old video about safety, and that would have fit right in.

[martinm]

Always beats me why you guys would willingly want to stand on a hot roof with a fire underneath you and very little means of escape...Maybe its just the Brit in me? ;)

[oldman21220]

Martinm,

The hot tar plugs the holes in the bottom of our boots:D

[VinnieB]

I honestly do not see the problem here. Should they have SCBA...sure...Is it really needed on the roof...it depends on the situation. They appear to be FDNY firefighters and do this type of op on frequent occassions. I am completely sure they have a secondary and possibly a trinary means of egress. They also appear to be on top of a taxpayer. With large expansive roofs and with the amount of work that needs to be done to open up the roof, SCBA tends to slow you down and you will run out of air rather quickly. Were I am a firefighter we do the same. Our guys take the mask to the roof but set a staging area up an pile up the gear that is not "pertenant" usually were we came up.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by VinnieB
I honestly do not see the problem here. Should they have SCBA...sure...Is it really needed on the roof...it depends on the situation. They appear to be FDNY firefighters and do this type of op on frequent occassions. I am completely sure they have a secondary and possibly a trinary means of egress. They also appear to be on top of a taxpayer. With large expansive roofs and with the amount of work that needs to be done to open up the roof, SCBA tends to slow you down and you will run out of air rather quickly. Were I am a firefighter we do the same. Our guys take the mask to the roof but set a staging area up an pile up the gear that is not "pertenant" usually were we came up. Vinnie, they're not FDNY. There's a link to the story these came from at the top.

[DrParasite]

No SCBA? eh, while I always would, I do know a couple big city paid departments that don't require it, but will leave it up to the company officer's discretion as to require it.

One of the reasons I've heard not to wear one is that you can lose your balance easier. so if you are operating on a roof, and it's a little windy, or you lean the wrong way, you could go for a tumble. that and if you are working up there for a while, you will run out of air very quickly.

as for the lack of helmet, well, i'm guilty of that one too. if he's actually doing something, then yeah it should be on. if he's just looking on, then it's probably not neccesary. which bring up the topic of "if he's not doing anything and just looking on, then he probably shouldn't be on the roof at all."

[VinnieB]

Originally posted by firenresq77
Vinnie, they're not FDNY. There's a link to the story these came from at the top.


DOOOOOOHHHH!!!!!:eek: ......damn I didn't see that...sorry about that.

But the rest of what I say still stands. :D

[ullrichk]

Looking at the big picture and not just how the Yourtown, Anytown, or Big City Fire Department works, when is it OK to eat smoke?

[sbfdco1]

My first thought after I read the subject and then the looked at the picture was 'why are teh using an axe to vent?' It does look like they are using an axe, no? Then you have the office looking at his watch saying, well the saw would've been a lot quicker. :D

[ff7134]

Tradition, Saw is out of gas, Blade is dull, Saw is out of service. I can tell you have have on more than one occasion opened a roof with an Axe. Its is good practice to do that periodically.

[len1582]

I didn't read the story. Maybe the guy with the axe isn't "cutting" the roof. Maybe it was cut with a saw and a spot was missed and he's just hitting one spot.Maybe the guy with the saw is starting it(out of the picture) and this guy is clearing debris. Don't forget this is a fraction of a second on film that doesn't tell the entire story.
Also the smoke could be comming out of along the side of the roof and be between the guys on the roof and the camera.
Is it acceptable to eat smoke on a roof..if you have people trapped above the fire and very quickly need to take out a scuttle or skylight to vent the public hall to keep heat and smoke away from them and give them a chance to survive.After that if you need a mask to cut,sure put it on.Wearing it on the roof does make you feel off balance,gives you tunnel vision, and does make you lose some vision in considerable smoke.Not saying I'm right,but I have chosen many times to not wear the facepiece for better visibility espscially at night.I felt I'd rather cough then go off the side.

[fflynn17]

martinm Always beats me why you guys would willingly want to stand on a hot roof with a fire underneath you and very little means of escape...Maybe its just the Brit in me?

Why do truckies go to the roof you ask????

It's to be closer to god and farther away from the engine company pukes!!:D :D

[725GUS]

I've always been a stickler for safety so if it was me the helmet AND scba would be on, no other way.

I agree that they are cumbersome on a roof, when it's wet, during the night, facing high winds, when the moon is in line with aquarius, and whatever else you can throw in the mix. I have gotten a face full on several occasions and have never had the idea of taking one off since.

Even if someone was known to be trapped inside the building our guys would be tanked and ready to go before we step off the truck so need be, we would not have to waste any time donning the equipment or jeapordize our safety to get up there quick.

Also there's no denying that performing vent work can take the wind out of you quick. The way I see it, I'd rather have an empty tank of clean air judge when we come down verses a crew member who is overcome by smoke.

[hwoods]

Martin, We go up there to get away from the Chiefs. No, Wait, can't be that, I'm a Chief..... Maybe it's the view.... Roof Work has been around in America ever since Roofs were invented. And, quite frankly, I have no problem getting up there and getting the job done. I am particular about too many people on the roof, PPE Requirements, Etc. Sure, we're going up there and work, but we're doing everything with safety in mind. If it's not safe, we're not doing it. On another Plane, Many of you are familiar with the Pulaski Tool. For those who are not, the Pulaski is a combination of an Axe and a Grubbing Hoe, It's main use is in Wildland Firefighting. I'd post a picture if I had one. Anyway, I've refined the Pulaski a bit, and it is a great tool for opening roofs. Use the hoe side to skin the shingles or tarpaper off, flip it over and chop as needed with the axe, flip again and clear all the wood away. The Pulaski handle has enough strength to enable you to pry up plywood panels with it. Works for me.

[fdmhbozz]

It is my opinion (not that it matters, since I am not even a Candidate yet) that whenever you are in IDLH, you should have the full structural ensamble, including turnout gear, SCBA, and helmet.

[RalphSafety]

It may be my bad eyesight, but in the 2nd picture the guy looks to be very close to the edge of the roof, with his back turned. One mis-step and he could fall off the roof.

Attached is a link to a LODD incident report, of a firefighter who was venting the roof without wearing SCBA. There is no such thing as a "routine" fire

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200240.html

[firefiftyfive]

First of all roof work is great, I love getting assigned to the roof position, especially on an attic fire or top floor fire, there is nothing like it. As for the SCBA arguement here I think that all the members operating on the roof should atleast have an SCBA on their backs but I do NOT think that they should be using them, there is a light to very light smoke condition on that roof and there is no real need for using them. What happens if you have to come down off of that roof and make a search of a floor beneath you or if you have to make a whole over a heavily charged section of the roof, then you will need your pack and every drop of it. I think it is ridiculous when I see guys in pics or even at fires in my area get off the apparatus and are on air as they are rasing ladders or stretching hose.......nothing but a waste of air!!!!

[FULLYINVOLVED6]

Well if you want to go completly by the book, there is also a hand line missing from the pics... But oh wait.... those pics do kinda look small. Real hard to see the whole fireground from a three inch window......

just my two cents for what ever that may be worth.

[LACAPT]

Hey Vinnie, nothing personal here, but its attitudes like yours about safety that the fire commisioners office exists, for collecting statistics about LODD's. :(

[VinnieB]

Originally posted by LACAPT
Hey Vinnie, nothing personal here, but its attitudes like yours about safety that the fire commisioners office exists, for collecting statistics about LODD's. :(


No worries...my skin is tough as leather.:D....but why only go after me?...There are 4 or 5 others that have similar posts? hmmmmm


I only am stating what happens day to day around me....I don't know how much roof experiance you have but for years and years we have been working up there in the IDLH w/o masks. Most firefighters die due to falls and roof collapses....and over the years from constant exposure to the smoke. But hey....if you mask up everytime you go to a roof or are doing overhaul and even before you enter the room....well them good for you...you a better man than me. Each and every firefighter has thier own way of doing things....and it usually mimics the attitude and tradition of thier department and the guys they are working with.

[Dave1105]

That may be so vinnie..... but it doesn't neccessarily make it right.

[VinnieB]

Originally posted by Dave1105
That may be so vinnie..... but it doesn't neccessarily make it right.


Yeah and.....? Look guys....I don't step off the rig on air...I wait to I am at the door, I don't wear a mask on the roof, but I sometimes take it with me, I never wear my chin strap...I don't even think I have one installed, I don't always crawl...sometimes you just don't have to, and I do not pull up my hood if not needed....there are alot of things I don't do...and the guys and gals I fight fires with do the same......It may not be right it and it may not be "safe"...but we consider ourselves very aggressive and we get the job done. There are THOUSANDS of firefighters out there that do what we do....the pics above show that....I realy do not see a need for the mask on the roof, in regards to the pics. If heavy smoke is encountered while up there...then your on the wrong part of the roof and its either time to move or get off....This biz is all about entering unsafe areas and doing unsafe things....If yous want to be super safe..then go for it...thats great..I'll stick to Operational Risk Managment and weight my means.

[Weruj1]

..I'll stick to Operational Risk Managment and weight my means. ...just be careful as to which way the scales get tipped.