what about shelton

[theman01]

whats going on in shelton they light fires and dont put them out?

[motorola1225]

The first question is: What were they thinking?

[Adze39]

Wanna clue the rest of the state in on what you're talking about?

[Stuart]

3 Shelton firefighters charged with setting fire that destroyed home
May 8, 2004

SHELTON, Conn. -- Three volunteer firefighters were arrested Saturday on charges of setting a fire that destroyed an upscale house under construction.

Charles Eye, 20; Andrew Evans, 17; and Jonathan Belanger, 19, confessed to starting the early Saturday morning blaze, police said. Investigators believe gasoline was used in the crime.

No one was injured.

The three men were seen by a police officer fleeing the scene in an EMS rescue vehicle, police say.

"I just hope the bad choices of a few individuals does not cast a bad reflection on the entire department," Fire Chief John Millo told the Connecticut Post. "I think the speed in which the investigation was conducted shows how seriously we view an incident like this."

Eye, Evans and Belanger were immediately suspended pending further information.

Evans was not available for comment, a woman who answered the phone at his house told The Associated Press Saturday night.

Eye and Belanger do not have telephone listings and could not be reached for comment.

A Shelton police officer saw the fire while on patrol at about 3 a.m., and saw the EMS cruiser speeding from the site.

"He thought that was a little bit odd, so he radioed it in," Detective Sgt. Michael Madden said.

Shelton police investigators checked radio dispatch and determined that the occupants of the vehicle, which was driven by Eye, did not report the fire. The blaze was "clearly visible from the street," Madden told the New Haven Register. The three men immediately became suspects, police said.

The three men confessed because they "wanted to be the first to respond," Madden told the Connecticut Post.

Fire officials estimate the damage at $175,000. The house was to have been sold for about $620,000.

Evans and Belanger were charged with arson in the first degree and Eye was charged with conspiracy to commit arson in the first-degree. The three men each posted $25,000 bond and are scheduled to be arraigned May 24 in Derby Superior Court.

[DanTCFD]

Originally posted by Adze39
Wanna clue the rest of the state in on what you're talking about?

I was thinking the same thing until I picked up Sunday morning's CT Post.
It is actions like these that give volunteer fire fighters a bad name.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by Stuart
The three men were seen by a police officer fleeing the scene in an EMS rescue vehicle, police say.

Ok, bad enough that they did it but they DID IT IN A FRIGGIN' EMERGENCY VEHICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[theman01]

well it least they made a nice stop on the job...NOT...

[theman01]

oops typo at least the made a nice stop....NOT..

[theman01]

wow i type like they put out fires...at least they made a nice stop...NOT...there that's what I meant..

[MEckert129]

Wow You like to talk about shelton but where are you from that makes your dept god?????

[nmfire]

Originally posted by theman01
wow i type like they put out fires...at least they made a nice stop...NOT...there that's what I meant..

Wow, you type like you think... STUPID. What in the hell are you talking about. You created a username here JUST to flame a FD for something the article said nothing about. There is nothing in the article about the extinguishment of this fire. Yet somehow, you have come up with this horse feces about not putting it out. You should do the rest of the forum a favor and go away as fast as you came here. Don't let the door hit you either, the door is worth more than that.

The first question is: What were they thinking?

I think that was the problem. They weren't. At least they didn't do this to something occupied and no one was hurt or worse. The only thing harmed is the 3 morons who will probbaly not be missed while in jail. I hope the citzens of Shelton can see past these 3 idiots and realize there are bad apples everywhere but are the extreme minority.

[theman01]

Dude you are angry, if you knew what you were talking about you would know they set it to put it out and be heros, it burned to the ground!So you are right it didnt say anything about putting it out because it didnt happen. But even though you might not be able to read big words look at the pictures at least. Second no there are no gods at my department but no 17 year old arsonists either.

[nmfire]

Are you on crack? :rolleyes:

[motorola1225]

Nmfire your right I hope that the resident of Shelton will look past this incident and look at the good the Shelton Fire Dept. has done and will continue to do dispite this unfortunate circumstance.

[REDRIVER6]

The best thing that happens to these three fellows is that they get incarcerated for a long time. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the rest. It is a shame this has happened. I hope the people of Shelton support thier FD. Shelton has a long history of having a great fire service [I'm not from Shelton] Hopefully they will.

[xlonghillfd]

Don't let this discussion get all heated and end up where Firehouse.com shuts down another CT thread. This is a good topic because it affects more than just the town of Shelton.

[theman01]

I agree Longhill. There is no need to get personal. I was out of line
I apologize. Hopefully this unfortunate incident will have a silver lining; like a professional fire department for the city of Shelton.

[MEckert129]

Originally posted by theman01
I agree Longhill. There is no need to get personal. I was out of line
I apologize. Hopefully this unfortunate incident will have a silver lining; like a professional fire department for the city of Shelton.

As in professional do you mean all paid?? I so just because there was a few bad apples dousnt mean the city needs a paid service

[theman01]

I agree 129 its a few bad apples is not the reason.
The reason is the city of Shelton will be better served
by Professional Firefighters. By the why professional
and paid are the same thing.

[Bones42]

By the why professional and paid are the same thing. :rolleyes:

[xlonghillfd]

why does every post that actually has something to it turn out being a vollie vs paid thread?:confused:

[Adze39]

Originally posted by REDRIVER6
The best thing that happens to these three fellows is that they get incarcerated for a long time.

Unfortunately, they will probably receive community service.

[nmfire]

Well that about settles it. He really is on crack. He apoligizes for his first rash of moronic statements and concludes with yet another arguably MORE stupid statement. Did you sign up for these forums just to be an ass or does it come naturally. Why don't you go professionally pound sand somewhere else because your idiocy is not welcomed and not accomplishing anything.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by theman01
The reason is the city of Shelton will be better served
by Professional Firefighters.

Should I bite? I hate getting hooks in my mouth...

I'm not familiar with the fire service in Shelton...please explain using facts (not opinions) why Shelton would be "better served" by career firefighters? And may we ask which department you serve?

[3satellite]

I dont think any Fire Dept would have had an oppurtunity to stop that fire the house was completely gutted basically a wooden frame and drenched with gas and lit. The fire wasn't discovered for about 15 minutes, the three morons (which i regret to say i know of them) sat there for a long time and watched it burn and then left. The fire wasnt reported for about 15 mins so consider all those factors.

[xlonghillfd]

Originally posted by 3satellite
I dont think any Fire Dept would have had an oppurtunity to stop that fire the house was completely gutted basically a wooden frame and drenched with gas and lit.

I totally agree.. paid or vollie, no one was going to take out that fire under those circumstances, so the only conclusion that theman01 must be making is that paid guys wouldn't go around setting fires. Which is totally BS also.

[theman01]

Well I missed a day so I will try to respond to all
the ?'s. First I apologized not for what I said but
the sarcastic tone I used in saying it. Next, when
I spoke about the not putting out the fire, I was
refering to the arsonists/children/"firemen" who set
it in the hopes of being heros and putting it out
the did not accomplish either. Next yes there are
fires started by pro firefighters too but with much
less frequency..look it up if you dont believe me.
Next the city of Shelton like all cities or towns
is better served by a full time, 24 hour manning
of apparatus, no one can convice me or anyone with
common sense that guys on the trucks dont do better
than guys coming from home to pick up the trucks.
Also with a career department you have much less
turn over than with a vollie department, again this
is a fact. So in a career department you are much less
likely to see a 20y/o "supervisor" like you did in
this case. Guys on a professional department stay all
30 years, agreeably sometimes for the worse(there are
mutts everywhere) but these guys also count on the
job to pay the mortgage, feed the kids etc. so
it creates incentive to not be a f-up. And
although you werent looking for opinions I will
give mine anyway, I think what I do is a
profession not a weekend/night hobby, I have 11
years on the job full time and still have an
infinate amount to learn, I cant imagine if I
did it for less than 42.5 hours a week.
Finally to NM...dude you are angry and insulting
me wont change the facts here or about you
Clearly you have taken alot of civil service
tests and luckily the screened well enough to
keep you out, I can only pray it continues
for the well being of the fire service, but
please continue to try it sad to see somebody
spend there life as a "wannabe"..

[Adze39]

Originally posted by theman01
.dude you are angry and insulting
me wont change the facts here or about you...but
please continue to try it sad to see somebody
spend there life as a "wannabe"..

To take a little middle ground here, if you don't want him to insult you then don't insult him. Don't rebut this (either of you) with "well, he said it first" or "he made the last comment" because that is just childish.

I've gotten into issues in the past with another CT poster regarding career/volunteer and the bottom line is it is all just BS. No one will convince another person otherwise on these forums and slinging insults takes credibility away from one having "professional behavior" regardless of pay status.

So why don't you both just agree that you disagree and stop that particular discussion.

[firenresq77]

Funny............ I thought this was Firehouse Forums, not The Watch Desk forums.........

[nmfire]

Originally posted by theman01
Clearly you have taken alot of civil service tests and luckily the screened well enough to keep you out, I can only pray it continues for the well being of the fire service, but please continue to try it sad to see somebody spend there life as a "wannabe".. [/B]

Everytime you open your mouth, what you say gets stupider and stupider. This last comment of yours exemplifies that. It's total and complete lack of any accurate information is actually amusing. When you have a clue what your talking about, why don't you try again. Until then, I think I heard the village is looking for you. :rolleyes:

[theman01]

NM sorry my man, sounds like I touched a
nerve. Listen you keep trying but at the
next oral interview wear a sports jacket
instead of a straight jacket and maybe
you will fool them. Now for Longhill its
not really a paid vs. vollie thing its
a paid instead of vollie thing. I know it
comes off as bashing but honestly I think
there are vollie departments who are well
trained dedicated men who give 100%. My
question is this: Why dont they deserve
pay checks and benefits? Why do they have
to go to other communities to do what
they love, and would gladly do for their
own community? The answer is they dont
force the issue. I really think its
because of the higher ups, who know
there days as chiefs are over, it wouldnt
be a popularity vote. And they are not
inclined to give that up. The reason I hear
from my volunteer friends is "my town cant
afford it" well thats a load of crap. They
pay teachers, cops, the DPW and secretaries
isn't what we do just as important and
deserving of the same respect. Now I think
that I am correct in saying Trumbull spent
2 million on a golf course last year..but
too poor to pay the guys who protect them
I dont by it sorry.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by theman01
They pay teachers, cops, the DPW and secretaries
isn't what we do just as important and
deserving of the same respect.

That's not a fair comparison. I've heard someone else (maybe it was you under a different name?) say "Well, your town pays for cops so they can pay for firefighters". That's BS. My town has 10,000 people and has 2 (sometimes 3) cops on duty per shift...So because we have 2 cops on duty at a time, we should can our vollie FDs (with a total op budget of 400k) and replace them with a full-time FD. What about the towns in CT that don't have PDs or schools (they do exist)? What about the town of Union with 693 people (2000 census)? (Where's Dal with all his statistical power?)

Now, I know Trumbull and Shelton are different stories then these but come up with a better argument.

[nmfire]

Originally posted by theman01
NM sorry my man, sounds like I touched a
nerve. Listen you keep trying but at the
next oral interview wear a sports jacket
instead of a straight jacket and maybe
you will fool them.

Listen you flaming idiot. If I had any desire at all to be a paid firefighter, I might care what you think. But I don't and never have. It isn't because I can't, it is because I don't want to. Imagine that!! I enjoy my full-time job that I have now and I very much enjoy doing the volunteer thing when I'm not at work. And guess what, I would bet that a good 90% of the volunteer fire service feels the same way. The other 10% are paid firefighters who volunteer when they are not at work. (These numbers are not exact, just making a point). Oh yea, you seem to think you are annoying me or touching a nerve. Sorry, but I don't give people like you that pleasure. I find your asinine comments very amusing and they actually make me laugh. Keep it up PLEASE. I need something to keep me amused today.

[xlonghillfd]

Originally posted by theman01
Next yes there are fires started by pro firefighters too but with much less frequency..look it up if you dont believe me.


Thats a bogus statement becuase there are more volunteer firemen than career firemen.













This photo has nothing to do with the discussion. I took it the other day and figured that it would be something nice to look at instead of all these negative posts.

[rac160]

I have a some questions for the group, what would be an appropriate reaction by the City of Shelton and the Shelton Fire Department to juvenile fire setters, especially their own? Can the Fire Dept (any FD) better screen their applicants?

[Adze39]

Originally posted by rac160
Can the Fire Dept (any FD) better screen their applicants?

I've suggested in the past that my FD do psychological tests and profiles on new applicants. However, it never happened and even if it did, people would still slip through the cracks.

[xlonghillfd]

I think it would be tough for vollie depts to turn people away since most places are struggling for warm bodies.

[MEckert129]

Now why would towns with volly dept's be served better by paid firefighters? Idk about shelton but in trumbull and monroe theres always firefighters around the firehouses and the manpower always gets out for serious calls. Maybe the response times are not as good as a paid house but the volunteers give the same service, they like doing what they do and dont want to get paid for it and these towns and there tax payers are saving millions of dollars that would be spent on a career dept. could i see a paid engine in some of these towns backed up by volunteers in future? yes. Some towns are getting busy but not enough to be all career.,.

[motorola1225]

Ok guys for once can everyone agree on one thing and that is no matter if you are a volunteer or a paid FF you do it because you love it and the whole idea of the paid guy is better than the volunteer is questionable. Most volunteer dept. are trained as well if not better than some paid dept. and most of the "guys" in a volunteer dept. are mature, responsible adults. SO can we get off this subject already and move on to more pressing issues that concern the fire service and instead of bashing those guys from shelton why dont don't you put yuor energy towards trying to improving the image and trying to make things better. The more you guys talk about it the more it stays in the spotlight!

[Dalmatian90]

My town has 10,000 people and has 2 (sometimes 3) cops on duty per shift

That's called a Police Department.

What do you call a Fire Department with 2 Firefighters on a shift?
An Ambulance Service. That's all they can do effectively. If the patient isn't too heavy.

Shelton has been taking a bit of these "why aren't they paid/when will they hire daytime guys" shots recently. I have to say, I'm not familiar with what's going on here, and whose grinding what axes. They (Shelton/Ansonia/Derby) had, up here in the opposite corner of the state, a good reputation.

Don't know if theman smells blood in the water, or if he just enjoys watching others get their panties in a knot. Certainly some of his stuff is just hyperbolic bull****, and "word-baiting." Some of it's just silly, a fully paid department equipped with Larry Stevens Batquints isn't gone leave standing an arson fire in a woodframe home under construction with delayed notification -- accelerants, lack of sheetrock, and time all ain't on your side. When the fire is called in by a cop who sees a glow in the sky, it's pretty heavily involved before tones ever go.

The line between the quality volunteers & career staff can provide isn't clear.

The single biggest thing career systems get you is consistency -- you always know whose responding, and strong "automatic" SOPs can be developed. Staffed volunteer systems have much of that same consistency.

Of course, consistent could mean consistently pure crap for service. Hi, we're the fire department. Yep, the two of us -- we're recalling the other 8 guys who work for the town, and maybe 6 of them will show up in the next 10 minutes, meanwhile since no one's trapped, we'll just sit back and relax. In my town, we usually have an adequate to very good turn out, but yup, been there with a thumb-up-your butt turnout too. Overall, we can provide a better level of service to the more serious calls despite the inconsistency of a volunteer-on-call system then we could with any grossly understaffed full-time-paid system my town could afford (Probably, if you pushed it to the limit of tax-payer tolerance, about 4 guys/shift...and two of them would be on the Ambulance -- good for EMS, OK for a simple car accident, poor for an extrication, and why-bother-going for structure fires)

Putting in an NFPA 1710 level staffed department in my town of 7,000 would nearly equal our school system's employment. With the schools already taking 80% of the budget...not going to happen. The Town voters would accept the additional losses in property & lives before they'd accept the 40% (about 10 mill) tax increases needed to do it.

That isn't to say we can't hire any firefighters -- a handful during the days could help shore up responses, do the ambulance thingy, and relieve a number of maintenance & paperwork activities. Done right, the volunteers could refocus the time they spent on those on additional training. Kind of a win-win, no?

But there's significant hurdles even to get to 2/3/4/5 paid guys. Not the least of which is our operating budget from the town is just a bit more than 1 paid firefighter would cost, and we fund-raise a nearly similiar amount. Sorry, but if the town is paying for firefighters to cover days, I'm not spending vacation time parking cars at the fair raising money. So a switch to six person paid daytime crew (figure that leaves us 5 guys usually on duty -- so we could actually do interior operations on arrival, as long as the ambulance isn't out on another run) would raise the operations budget from $65,000 to $405,000 in one swoop. Schools don't even get away with 653% budget increases.

Which gets us back to a speed v. quantity issue. If you need 5 guys to make even the beginning of an effective, and legal, fire attack, what do you get for hiring 2? So they drive the pump their quicker and then wait for the the volunteers to show up? Is that different than waiting the extra 3 or 4 minute for 5 vollies to get to the station, but then have enough manpower once they get to the scene? You need both a quick response and manpower too -- something that can't always be done -- so each community is probably in the best place to decide how to compromise.

Tying some of this together, like I said Shelton seems to be getting a fair amount of pressure recently to hire firefighters. I suspect part of that is it's a ripe fruit for picking.

In New England, my rule-of-thumb that holds pretty true is a community needs 30,000 total population and 1,000 population/sq. mile in order to have the tax base to reasonably afford the criteria of NFPA 1710, which the paid guys hold up as the minimum acceptable level. Ansonia's too small, Derby's too small. But Shelton has 38,000 in population so it probably could afford to go all paid if need be. Takes about 90 guys in a four-platoon system to staff 16 operations personnel/shift plus the assorted support guys like Chief of Department, Training Chief, etc. Gotta add in at least another 20 guys if you want to staff 2 ambulances/shift as well w/o degrading your ability to meet 1710 level fire responses -- that's 110 firefighters, distribute their salaries a bit since they're not all first year probies, probably about $8,000,000 in salary costs to have 16 guys on fire trucks and 4 guys on ambulance per shift.

Shelton currently raises $55,000,000 in local tax money with a mill rate of 24 ($24/$1000 assessed value). $8m would be a 14.5% tax increase, or about 3-1/2 mills. People would grumble, to say the *least*, but it's not the end of the universe as we know it.

By the way, Adze's town of East Windsor raises about $14 million on 26 mills -- going 1710 paid would be a 57% tax increase. My town of Brooklyn raises $6 million on 21 mills, and I'm pretty sure a 133% tax increase wouldn't pass.

Does this incident mean Shelton should go paid? Nope.
Does the fact Shelton could afford mean they should go paid? Nope. Government isn't a jobs program, it's a provider of service, and it's a local decision what quality of service is acceptable.
Should Shelton consider paid guys? Absolutely -- most communities of Shelton's size and below are best served by combination fire departments. Many places make the mistake of waiting until after volunteer morale is shot & stressed out before they hire paid guys, the paid guys come in but the volunteer espirit de corps is already broken, and pretty soon they find themselves unable to afford enough paid guys and unable to rebuild the old volunteer system. Shelton's certainly in a position they could afford a significant daytime paid staff, and 24x7 paid EMS, and could transition that into a municipal budget over 2-3 years without excessive tax increases. Done right it could relieve a lot of administrative/maintenance and bull**** EMS time from the vollies and let everyone focus their efforts most cost effectively with a good compromise in level-of-service and cost effectiveness.

How'd you drag me into this anyway, Adze?

Getting back to the original topic, yes pysch evals may help. But these are kids, and they don't have a long history. I just don't know if we have existing good ways to screen juveniles for arson behaviors like this. Maybe we have to start somewhere and refine as time goes by. Certainly in a case like Shelton the town could afford to do so.

Make it clear to the kids this type of behavior isn't acceptable, there will be no second chances under any circumstances -- you light, help light, think about lighting, or fail to tell an officer about someone you think is lighting fires...you're out of here with no recourse and get a referal to the State's Attorney.

[theman01]

That is some well writen stuff. And some compelling
arguments. I disagree with most of it but still
pretty good. 1710 is a goal many mid sized dept.
strive for but few can really acomplish. Take out
the EMS from the budget because if run right with
proper billing it can pay for itself. So 120 guys
for Shelton although ideal, does not have to be
the starting point. Next is the crying poor mouth
by towns and cities in Connecticut, boo who, we
have the highest per capita income in the entire
country. If our towns can't afford a fire dept.
the problem isnt the fire dept. its how the town
is run. I refuse to believe that if all the vollies
stopped showing up towns would just let stuff burn
not that anyone would do it but the point is paying
is not impossible. My wife would tell you she cant
afford to have someone come clean the gutters, but
if the shmuck she had doing it for free wasnt there
(me) then she would pay someone to do and figure
out her budget. When towns need no schools they come
up with the cash they dont wait for the town residents
to throw together a make shift Amish barn raising
they pay. Now in very small towns or even ones
like you mentioned here in the "Valley" why not
regionalize it with mutual aid agreement that
would help get you closer to adaquate staffing.
As far as what to do with juvinile fire starters
we should not have children dressing up as fire
fighters in the first place. This year I have
already heard of one kid getting killed "responding"
to the fire house on his bike, another kid
just got killed smashing his car into a tree
with his blue lights flashing. This stuff
is senseless, this job is dangerous enough
lets not let kids and 20 year old "supervisors"
get hurt because towns dont want to pay.
Now to cut off the hey they send 18y/o to
war stuff, its true they do but in a very
regimented way. If anyone here has been
in the military they will tell you even
brushing your teeth is an order, so its
not the same, as letting kids play fireman
for real. And on a personal note and not to
give offense but I take exception to
people using my career as a hobby, NM
posted "I love my full time job and doing
the firefighting thing on the side." It
takes more than that its not a game
of golf.I also read here "to stop
discussing this it only brings it
into the spotlight more" well thats
how solutions happen not by sweeping
stuff under the rug. Oh yeah and to
the posting of Vollie training
compared to pro training I will take
a 30 year veterans experience to
all the classes the state can
come up with combined. Training
is important but a distant 2nd
in my opinion to real world work.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90
How'd you drag me into this anyway, Adze?

Hey...you mailed in your app, now we have to stick together! ;)

You wouldn't want me to vote against you at your second reading, would you? LOL :)

[xlonghillfd]

If my car breaks down and I can't afford to fix it.. yeah I will find money to get it fixed. But it comes as a sacrafice to other things like maybe eating macaroni and cheese and pb&j sandwiches for a lil while. So maybe your wife can get someone else to clean her gutters, but maybe she can't get her nails done that week. Just because a town may have the funds to support a paid fire dept. it may come at the expense of other services or higher taxes.

On another note, Dalmations comments, though long, were very good but then to see theman come out with an almost equally as long rebuttle to dalmations statements made me realize that this is an unwinnable fight and any further comments will just be contradicted (including the comment I just made).

[MEckert129]

Theman maybe you should move to this little island in the pacific called the land of paid firefighters... then you will finally be happy cause theres no volunteers and dont bash the volunteers cause the paid maids crash there pretty fire trucks and hurt themselves and others also. Im 21 and I have a blue light but i follow all rules and drive safely.. thanks

[theman01]

129 "paid maids" now that is funny. I wont
be moving any time soon...sorry..there was
no bashing in my blue lights comment(on a
side note I have noticed you vollies are
thin skinned, probably best to stay out
of the pros it gets a little tuff around
the coffee table) my point was it is
extra to the regular response, you drive
to the fire house then get in a fire
truck and drive to the call increasing
the likelyhood of an accident. Now you are
a good driver thats nifty but everytime
you put those lights on in your car
or the "pretty truck" it is dangerous.
And to Mekard that was a good analogy
with my wifes nails. MMMM dont clean the
gutters wreck the roof, dont get nails
done ..well it doesnt look as good. I
agree that is how these towns do their
budgets...lets see...golf course? protect
the citizens? These knuckleheads pick
golf course...Please tell me you dont
think they picked right.

[xlonghillfd]

Originally posted by theman01
These knuckleheads pick
golf course...Please tell me you dont
think they picked right.

Well the back 9 is challenging!

[Dalmatian90]

The golf course thing is pretty simple: There revenue neutral to actually being "tax-positive." Don't know the Trumbull situation; my town of all places has/is in the process of signing a 5 year lease with purchase option on the 9 hole course in our town. Adjoins town conservation land that could expand it to 18 holes.

Providing business stays at the same levels as the last 5 years, it doesn't cost the town anything -- golf course revenues offsetting the lease and eventually if accepted the purchase.

That's versus the most profitable thing for the current owners -- 60 something single family dwellings. At one kid per home, that'd be about $180,000 more per year in education costs than each home generates in tax revenue.

Yep, by buying a golf course we actually end up with more tax money we can spend on other things -- like fire protection and the resident state troopers -- then we would if it was allowed to be developed into houses.

It's a sad state of affairs, but the single most effective investment our town can make to keep the mill rate down is the purchase of property. Since 1988, we've bought around 400 acres in four big parcels, and are currently negotiating over another 120 acres plus the golf course. At least much of the 120 acre parcel is destined for commercial development, but if the Town doesn't act as the intermediary we risk seeing it go for the more profitable residential development. The flip side is this helps fuel the continuing increases in housing costs, but without those purchases our taxes would be increasing 1/2 to 1 mill faster per year trying to keep up with education costs. Until we move to having public education supported by the state-wide income tax, most Towns have all the incentive in the world to fight residential development tooth-and-nail to keep their tax rates under control. Move to the state income tax, the older suburbs would once again be in a position to approve suburban-density housing (1/4-1/2 acre lots, apartment complexes, etc) to relieve the housing market, and the rate of housing inflation would be reduced...but I digress.

As for my figures, EMS could *partially* support itself. EMS can support itself paying EMS rates, not career Firefighter rates. Depends how you want it structured; I also don't know where Shelton transports (does it allow quick turn arounds = fewer crews needed), nor do I know the % of medicare patients. Medicare having reimbursement rates well below the state-set ambulance rates. The more you want FF/Paramedics to staff the rigs, the longer your turn around times, and the higher percentage of runs at Medicare instead of "full-charge" rates, the greater the chance for needing a subsidy.

You can also trim the payroll for the line firefighters by using overtime instead to maintain minimum manning. A combination of billing for EMS and o/t instead of extra hires to maintain minimum might bring you down into the $5 million instead of $7 million dollar range. Still a huge expense.

Regionalization is a great thing -- but you'll be fighting political inertia all around, including any career firefighters. Suddenly all those union contracts in all those towns with firefighters, police, teachers, etc are going out the window as you try to merge the systems together.

One of the few places regionalization and things like Joint Powers Agreements actually happen a lot is in California, and that's because of their draconian and truly ****ed up property tax laws have so limited local tax revenues, they don't have a choice. In California, your house is not re-assessed until you sell it -- a homeowner who bought a house in 1980 maybe paying taxes based on a $100,000 assesment, and their next door neighbors in an equivelant house have a $1,000,000 assessment and pay 10x the taxes. Plus other stuff going on -- bottom line is the communities just legally can't raise the funds they needed to continue, and many fire districts were forced into merger to gain tax revenue to hire even a minimal paid force. I'm not sure laying our local communities out financially prostrate in order to force regionalization is a good thing.

With our volunteer system, we're inconsistent -- sometimes a great response, sometimes a weak response. A paid system is consistent -- but certainly in smaller towns like mine, Adze's, the smaller valley towns the one thing I could guarantee is a paid system would consistently deliver an inadequate response to serious calls. Maybe if you squeezed hard we could afford 4 FFs/shift (2 paid to be on the ambulance). Whose gonna run a tanker shuttle? How often would they even meet 2in/2out? We can use the standards we as the Fire Service tout to do the math. NFPA 1710 -- 1st unit in 4 minutes, full 1st alarm (roughly 3 Engines & Truck) in 8 minutes. The standard response speed used for planning in NFPA (and ISO) is 35mph -- .583 miles per minute means you need to be within 2.3 miles of the closest station and 4.6 miles of the the furthest away station. We would need 5 stations within my own town to achieve that; Shelton would need 6 or 7 stations (Hmmm, maybe I was low-balling the manpower estimates for them...); maybe in my town 2 out-of-town stations could reduce the need down to only 3 in-town, I don't know about Shelton but given their size at 31 square miles, I'd suspect it would be similiar of only being able to use 1 or 2 out-of-town stations against their requirements. Botton line, regionalization wouldn't relieve the need for local stations or be able to provide the industry standard level or service on the majority of serious calls. Regionalization can help with special services like Haz-Mat, Technical Rescue, Water Search & Recovery, etc.

Yeah, my town could hire a few guys if they had no volunteers. And all the paid guys could do is show up, squirt some water in the windows, and if that didn't do the trick, watch it burn because that's all they'd have the manpower to do. At that point you might as well just hand the fire apparatus over to the Town Highway Department to handle between filling potholes and picking up roadkill.

As for training and experience, some people are in for ages and never learn a thing. There's experienced & well trained career departments, and volunteer departments. And there's ****box houses that don't give a damn in both, too. In these smaller towns, on-call volunteers are probably going to see more fire over the years because they're available for, say, half the fires the department gets, v. career staff who only see 1/5th the fires (1 in 4 shifts, less vacation, sick, etc) while they're on-duty. Yep, a guy working a busy Bridgeport station probably sees more fire than an average Shelton vollie; but an average Shelton vollie would build up more experience over time than an average Shelton paid man would.

Problem with theman is he's approaching this as an either-or situation, and that's not how we progress. If you accept you want full paid, you have to realize what the costs will be to build it out to industry standards. If you accept you need compromise, attitudes like he's doing to torque off some of the guys here work against effective combination systems.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90
Problem with theman is


I'm sick of TheMan holding our people down! Fight the power!!


Sorry...had to make that stupid joke! :D Maybe it will lighten this room up a little...

[Dalmatian90]

Now, we know the truth...

The bag actually covers the Afro of Adze "Undercover Brother (http://www.undercover-brother.com/)" 39...

[xlonghillfd]

Dalmation.. please keep it to 1,000,000 words or less. LOL.. you must've started writing that 2 days ago and just got finished.. it took me almost as long to read it.

Last time I played there, Tashua Knolls (Trumbull's Town Owned Golf Course) was charging $40 for 18 holes. And that was 2 years ago. And it's always packed so I'm sure they're covering their overhead. And $3 for a hot dog or something they probably cover it just in snack bar revenues.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90
Now, we know the truth...

The bag actually covers the Afro of Adze "Undercover Brother (http://www.undercover-brother.com/)" 39...

Great Movie, Statistics Brother!

[theman01]

Hey Dalmation you are good with the numbers
I hope my city never hires you to negotiate
against me. But I have a question, don't tell
the union I said this, you say EMS couldnt
tolerate career firefighter salaries, is
there some firefighter minimum wage law I
dont know about? If guys will go in and do it
for free why wouldnt they do it for 30K a year
which is low end EMS pay? As for needing 7 fire
stations and more than 120 guys for Shelton to
do a good job, I disagree I looked in the greater
New Haven area, Hamden is a town of 50,000 with a
dept of 100 or so with i think 6 stations and they
seem to put out fires just fine. I dont know what
their pay scale is but I imagine it is comprable
to other depts. Its not a wealthy community and
it is 35 square miles. How do they do it? I think
they even have a golf course and schools. In my city
we have guys who dont live inside the city and
vollie in thier home towns. I am a tax payer in
my city and these guys have no problem taking my money
and would stand up and shout if the mayor cut manning
or said I will fill some ot with vollies, but its
good enough for were they live, a little hypocritical
no? So I do give some credit to life long vollies
who dont take civil service tests to get on somewhere
else, but to the guys who shout ra ra volunteers then
line up for a job in another town...well I have to
ask which is it? Anyway I am sure we will never agree
but I do appreciate the opposing points of view, It
will help me to continue to oppress...just kidding adze

[theman01]

Oh yeah one more thing maybe with all these
towns should open more golf courses and use
the extra money for firemen..

[stealth]

Just wanted to inform everyone that the Tashua Knolls Golf Course is self sufficient and does not receive any tax dollars. The course is run with golf fees. Oh, by the way, 3 Phoenix (Pro)firefighters arrested for arson. Just goes to show, there are mutts every where, Paid and Volly.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by theman01
Hamden is a town of 50,000 with a
dept of 100 or so with i think 6 stations and they
seem to put out fires just fine.

Isn't Hamden combo?

[theman01]

Adze they do have some occasional vollies
in a couple of companies but I know they
have about 100 paid guys. And hey at least
those Arizona guys got paid..aww shucks
you are right Phenoix should go back to
volunteers and they would not have these
problems and they would have lower
taxes and more money for those cash rich
golf courses. Man they must be loaded you
can golf out there all year

[Dalmatian90]

But I have a question, don't tell
the union I said this, you say EMS couldnt
tolerate career firefighter salaries, is
there some firefighter minimum wage law I
dont know about?

There's no per se minimum wage for municipal firefighters...

First, you get CT State Statute 7-475 (yes, I did look it up, I'm not *that* good) that prohibits strikes by municipal employees.

In it's place in CT is binding arbitration. That tends to have a leveling affect on salaries -- not that you don't have your West Hartfords still on the high-end and -insert whoever- on your low-ends. What should you make? Well, what do your neighbors make on average? And the arbitrators, and those trying to avoid arbitration, albeit indirectly end up overtime moving everyone towards a median set by the big cities like Hartford.

In the late 80s/early 90s my town, like many around here, went through a cycle of binding arbitration awards that gave the teachers 10% raises in each year of a three year contract -- to the arbitrators, that's what they worth in other parts of the state.

I honestly don't know what a "typical" FD pension is in Connecticut. All but a dozen or so towns though give their Police officers 20 year pensions, since the State Police have 20 year pensions, they were robbing from locals. So most towns put in 20 year pensions so they wouldn't lose cops to the State and then each other. Only a few of the skin-flintiest departments (like Plainfield next to me) still have 30 year pensions. But that's an example of how municipal salaries & benefits tend to level themselves statewide.

I think we can agree, though I don't have my hand on specific numbers right now, the private EMS and most public EMS units don't pay as well as a traditional municipal FD or PD; they have significantly lower bennies; and lack things like presumptive benefits. If I was working for a 3rd-party municipal EMS service, bet your bippy I'd be trying to get re-classified as a firefighter :)

At any rate, I usually use $35k as the base salary for a 1st year FF in Connecticut (yes, I know not everyone makes that), on the other side, usually you figure 50% of the salary as benifits. I usually use $50k in salary + benefits as the "planning" number, so I might be high on the salary & low on the bennies, but it's a good number.

For the Shelton numbers above, since you'd be paying Lieutenants, Captains, Chiefs I figured $65k average in salary + benefits, still that's probably conservative. Where that number came from, out of my well-educated butt, but it's probably a pretty good figure.

The other calculation I use is staffing.
Figure n+1 staffing to maintain a minimum staffing. If you have four platoons, you need 4+1 = 5 bodies to keep them filled. Or you need overtime of about 20% to cover minimum manning -- since it's time-and-a-half, figure 30% above base salary.

Not all benefits are salary based (although pensions usually are), but for budgeting I'd use the $35k + 30% = $45k in salary + $15k in bennies = $60k. Four of those is $240,000 v. five guys at $250,000, each gets you minimum manning for one company for one platoon. Yep, it costs over $1 million a year to keep a four-man engine company on the road!

I hope my city never hires you to negotiate
against me.

That's not bloody likely.
I like to play out what the end-game is here, as much as people may start low-balling (yeah, we can get away with 3 guys on an engine, 2 on trucks, and the low end of the pay-scale...) we know where it's gonna end up.

But I also like to see public employees paid well, and if compromises have to be made, concentrate them on fewer stations/companies but with decent pay and decent strength -- not something every city mayor/manager likes when people whine their fire station that's been there since 1871 has just been closed.

Hell, I don't even like the BULL**** games Laidlaw & Ryder play with school bus contracts -- they flip contracts every 5 years or so between them. They can because each time they do, they hire the loser's drivers at their new-hire rates saving $$$ in labor. Costs go up? Ok, time to switch again! That's a pattern of porking people with public money and just ain't right.

Hamden is a town of 50,000 with a
dept of 100 or so with i think 6 stations and they
seem to put out fires just fine

Welcome to the world of games we play when with Standards we dance :)

NFPA likes in recent years "performance based" codes. But 1710 was a prescriptive code -- says the expectations are for 4 man companies, effectively 4 companies on a call, and 4 minutes for 1st to 8 minutes to last to arrive. Hamden's close to those numbers but not quite there with 100 guys in 6 stations...wanna bet whenever they negotiate over staffing levels NFPA standards get talked about? Very could be very effective, but 1710's a prescriptive code that says...

Other industry standards tell us to calculate travel speeds at 35mph, max, lower as conditions (traffic, etc) indicate. So rural areas like ours we can't take advantage of higher highway speeds. It hurts guys wanting paid departments by increasing the number of stations they need to cover X area, it hurts rural overall by discounting what we can actually move in water by creating an artificial limit.

I'm pretty sure no union president has ever entered a negotiation saying, "You know, we're pretty effective with three guys on an engine..."

So I do give some credit to life long vollies
who dont take civil service tests to get on somewhere
else, but to the guys who shout ra ra volunteers then
line up for a job in another town...well I have to
ask which is it?

To each there own. Some of the communities that have managed to keep effective volunteer fire departments surprise me, and the small size of other places that have gone all paid surprises me too.

What might work in a suburban, albeit big suburban town, with primarily detached Single family homes and decent socio-economics just ain't gonna cut it when you have a fire on the 2nd floor of a perfect six with poor elderly trapped on one side and unconcious druggies on the other...oh, and it's exposing the homes adjacent to it, too. Still amazes me how many people Hartford will bring over ladders during the middle of the "work"day...

I don't agree when the unions get their panties in a knot over volunteering in general; but I can perfectly see their point in circumstances such as joining a volunteer department that's already starting to transition to paid -- place's it's actually a rival organization. And if I was a Chief/City Manager type, I really don't give a **** what you do off-duty but I better not see you in someone else's bunker gear or ambulance in my city when you're not not on my clock, way, way too many conflicts & liability can of worms that opens.

I know the type of guy your talking about, met them many a time. If it's any consolation, my company which has averaged about 70 members for the last decade, has only seen one guy go paid in the last 17 years, plus we have Justin who'll make it I'm sure a few years from now.

Many towns though the best solution remains a combination one. The department has to be supportive of them, and the career guys can't be hostile. You need mutual respect, but the volunteers themselves also have to be responsible for maintaining a strong, organized, viable force -- good at firefighting, and politically active enough that the union guys can/need to use you as an allie in city budget meetings.

The pattern I've seen in many places, not all, but a number, is the best & brightest vollies in town become paid, the existing organization gets a little weaker, then you see the paid side keep hiring the best, and the volunteer side spirals down unable to sustain itself and attract good recruits. And then the town suddenly finds itself with an under-staffed all-career department.

Ah, I'm hitting the million mark, I better leave the office now :)

[Adze39]

Originally posted by theman01
aww shucks you are right Phenoix should go back to
volunteers and they would not have these
problems

No one is implying this, so I hope you are being sarcastic and not just making fun of someone for thinking that...

With that being said, you did imply the opposite though...that if Shelton (or any FD) went paid then they wouldn't have that problem...

[MEckert129]

Theman... why dont you go run with the 19 20 and 21 year old vollies that i run with in prince georges county and ill bet they run rite over you and put you in your place. You like to talk about vollies so much but the only difference with you is you get a paycheck. Well please go ahead and pat yourself on the back while you kiss my a**

[Adze39]

Originally posted by MEckert129
ill bet they run rite over you

Use you ally when you attac sumone, it is a gud idea to make shure you have korrect spelling and grammer.

I'll bet they run right over you

[firenresq77]

:D :D :D :p

[theman01]

129 you are right I am afraid of getting
run over by 19 year old vollies..in over
sized pick up trucks with rebel flags and
blue lights. Whenever I am in Maryland I
always look both ways. And as far as kiss
ing your butt sorry dude I like women but
I am flattered..
Adzs I was being sarcastic, I dont think
anyone should go volunteer.

[xlonghillfd]

Can you believe that theres been 61 posts in this thread? Better make it 62.

[xlonghillfd]

Originally posted by theman01
129 you are right I am afraid of getting
run over by 19 year old vollies..in over
sized pick up trucks with rebel flags and
blue lights.

No offense theman (if that is your real name).... but sometimes you sound like a 19 year old kid with some of the statements you make.

Better make that 63!

[Adze39]

Originally posted by xlonghillfd
Better make that 63!

And here I was, thinking we needed to talk about parades to get the CT Forum alive again...silly me...we just needed some dumb firebugs and some vollie/career talk to get this place jumping again...