Learning Disable Members (yes or no)

[Firefighter430]

Let me throw this one out for debate and discussion. Learning disabled members joining the fire department. Yes, no, or limited function? I have always been a person that welcomes all in the department but I think that somewhere there has to be a line. I know who’s to say where that line starts but I will give you my mark and you tell me you opinion on it.

When to say “thanks but we are going to decline your membership” or “we think its time for you to leave”.

1. When the person presents a danger to himself or others. Example: After being told many, many times to never throw tools off a roof, throws an ax off a roof during training because he couldn’t carry a saw and ax at the same time.
2. When the person is unable to follow or understand simple orders

Example:
Don’t hit the Fed Q during training in town at night on back streets.
Later WEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOO,
Why did you do that?,
Wanted to hear it,
Go roll hose.
Why?
Told you not to hit the Fed right.
Right, Ok!
Go roll hose.
Hits it again on the way back to the station at 9:30
Why did you do that?
Wanted to hear it?
What did I tell you?
Not to hit the Fed Q.
Right, then why did you hit it?
Go roll hose.

3. When the person cannot learn basic firefighting principle or fire department procedures due to their learning disability (ex. Rolls hose with female inside when he’s been told 10000 times to roll with male inside to protect threads) along with other such issues with ladders (get help when removing from truck but doesn't so scratch in paint), nozzle direction (never point at other members), and radio use (told never talk on it, but still tries from time to time).

Correction never helps, punishment never helps, it goes on and on. I think removal is the only solution.

[firefiftyfive]

Seee yaaaaaaaa!!! Take a hike pal...Once he becomes a threat to safety hes gotta go.

[SamsonFCDES]

Hmm, how about make them a special abasador to the mayors office...

You could get what ever you want if you promised to take them out of there. :D

[ullrichk]

Learning disabled is an extremely broad category to which there is no set answer - just a case by case assessment.

It sounds like your case, though, is clear-cut. Why would you keep any member, disabled or not, who conducts him or herself like that? Show them the door before someone gets hurt.

[N2DFire]

Originally posted by ullrichk
Learning disabled is an extremely broad category to which there is no set answer - just a case by case assessment.

It sounds like your case, though, is clear-cut. Why would you keep any member, disabled or not, who conducts him or herself like that? Show them the door before someone gets hurt.

Agreed 100% but let me add 1 thing.
Document, Document, Document. When (we all know is not a question of "If" anymore) one of these folks decides to sue because of unfair treatment - you better have your paperwork ready.

[crumudgeon]

I have been a member for sometime now and never felt the need to post since most of the other members would reply with some of the same thoughts that I had. However, this subject is near and dear to my heart.

As ULLRICHK pointed out this is a very broad catagory. Someone who is learning disabled does not mean that they are mentally deficient or stupid, it means that they have to learn in a different way then most people. The guy you are describing sounds more like a mental deficent rather then someone with a learning disability and if continued reminders to modify his behavior hasn't worked then I would ask him to leave. Remember Albert Einstien was learning disabled.

[station34]

You can open yourself to litigation if, as it was mentioned, you don't document all of your reasons for your actions of dismissal, even if it is a volunteer house... discrimination is a by-word these days! My simple answer is, that this person should've been cut during the probationatry period (if you have one), and if you don't, you should intitiate one asap. Said individual can then be removed for failing to meet probationary requirements. I personally believe that someone who is mentally deficient shouldn't be riding a firetruck to begin with, irregardless of what the pc zombies might say! Good luck, but get rid of him!

st34

[LaFireEducator]

As am educator I think it is important to make sure we clearly define thoses who have a difficult time learning vs. those who can learn and CHOOSE not to follow procedures and policy.
Some of your examples were based on learning disabilities but most were in fact discipline issues.

If someone is truly learning disabled they may or may not be able to retain information or carry out tasks. Those persons should be evaluated as to what they can do and be limited to those specific tasks.

In many of your examples you seemed to be dealing with those who choose not to follow guidelines, protocols, etc. They in my opinion should be immediatly documented, disciplned and if they repeat thier actions should be dismissed.

[Bones42]

"Why did you do that?, - Wanted to hear it"

Don't matter whether they are learning disabled or what, a statement like that is enough to want me to be rid of him.

[ndvfdff33]

My dept has one guy who has a learning disability...He has ran one call in my 4 years and it was a field fire..No harm there..But generally he doesn't run calls and he's completely fine doing that....He just loves to come and be on stand-by when we get calls..Hang out with the guys...He works bingo and takes care of the pop machines etc...He does all sorts of other things around the hall and is completely happy doing those things to contribute to the dept..

[FlyingKiwi]

As am educator

Me am Firefighter. :D :D :D

(Sorry couldn't resist)

[Firefighter430]

Well the kid was going to be removed in January but the new slate of officers didn't have a meeting so he's still in the department. Our department has an 18 month culling time once you are out of new member probation (6 months).

1st 6 months a letter is sent talking about problem and giving a warning based on by-laws

2nd 6 months if no improvement member is given formal warning and notice of impending probation.

3rd 6 months probation with removal at end of 6 months if no approval.

This person was at the end of the 3rd step but has now gotten a longer rope. Only 2/3 of members can remove a member after 3 officers bring up charges in any other case. Since no real harm has been done so it has not come to that stage.

He has not come to alot of calls or training in about a year but due to the above stages has remained on the roll. I had to really get on him at a fire school the other year because he did something that put himself in danger and I sent him to the station that day and he got mad and went home. I wanted to remove him from the roll that day but since it was training it was overlooked.

Think some feel sorry for the kid but I don't want to be the one that gets an ax to the head or whatever.

The thing that got me to thinking about this issue was at last nights meeting another application was brought before the department for a members son that is probably a little worse off than this kid is.

[FFFRED]

Some one should instead focus on examining the mental capacity of the Chief who let this guy on in the first place!

FTM-PTB

[firenresq77]

I echo everyone else's statements........... Get rid of him, should have been gone awhile ago.........

[lutan1]

The service I used to belong to had a major issue with a person who joined who had no use of 1 hand (Couldn't even straighten it to put on a uniform properly- had to be helped) along with many other similar issues, including learning problems.

For obvious reasons, we restricted him to HQ and non operational duties.

The problem we face here in Oz is some really strange anti-discrimination laws and this guy was gunning hard against us and was getting a lot of back up from "do-gooders" in the community.

We approached the Directors, Regional Officers, the policy makers, etc, etc from the State HQ and were told, "When you come up with a policy, we'll adopt it!" :mad:

They had no clue on how to handle this situation.

As it turned out, this guy eventuually got fed up and left, but it really left a bad taste in the mouth when the one who decide on policy, etc have no clue on handle these situations.:(

The only answer I can give you is to ensure you have proper policies in place and you follow them to the letter and DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. I guarnatee you there will be some one out there who will turn this against you...:rolleyes:

[FFTrainer]

Based on your description, I don't think you are dealing with a learning disability but rather a piss poor attitude that is going to get your dept in trouble whether through complaints or god forbid injury.

LD is definitely tough to put a finger on. I have a guy that is technically classified as dyslexic (and no it doesn't mean that when he drives a rig he reads a stop sign as "POTS") As I learned dyslexia comes in many forms and in his case really only effects him when trying to read a textbook. So to me as Capt/Training Officer he is not eligible for any self study courses, everything has to be lecture/hands-on based learning. To this day, I have not had any problems with him and would take him just about anywhere with me.

Don't know if that helps at all, but wanted to relay a real-life case.

[TillerMan25]

Why is the kid riding the front seat of the Firetruck and being given the opportunity to hit the siren? Please tell me he isn't driving~!

[Firefighter430]

"Why is the kid riding the front seat of the Firetruck and being given the opportunity to hit the siren? Please tell me he isn't driving~!"

WE TRY TO FILL ALL THE SEATS IN A TRUCK SO WE DO NOT FILL UP THE TRAINING SITE WITH PV. ALL OF OUR TRUCKS HAVE BENCH SEATS SO THREE TO THE TRUCK. HE IS NOT ON THE CERT. DRIVER LIST.

[StayBack500FT]

OMG!!! Kiwi - LMAO!!!

[LACAPT]

First question is, how in the name of sam did he get on the department in the first place? Second question is why hasn't anyone got the kahonnies to punt this person. By the way you discribe this FF, and I use that term rather loosly in this situation he sounds like he is a danger not only to his fellow FF's but to himself. Someone has to wake up and smell the coffee, firefighting is not a sport where we have a special olympic catagory, it is serious $hit where GOOD, WELL TRAINED men and woman get KILLED even when they do everything right. The word litigation makes my south end tighten up, and this sounds like a sure fire way to get this type of action going if he hurts someone or himself.

[Firefighter430]

I think the best way we can handle the problem is to remove him I know that but once in the department as I stated before it gets a little difficult. Our probation probably needs to be revamped to include more aptitude tests rather than the normal orientation that we currently do. Our probation lasts 6 months and you really need more time in a volley department to see what someone is going to do. And let me add that when this kid drives and gets around pretty well (as far as I know) on his own. He holds down a job as a stocker at a chain store. It’s not like he lives in a halfway house. Something just doesn’t click most of the time. He’s very quiet most of the time and he watches what others are doing like he’s very interested but when it comes to doing it himself or thinking on his feet he’s lost. During our probation period members are limited as to what they can do. Cannot drive, cannot fight structure fire, cannot do much of anything until they get training under their belt and have proven they can do the job. Maybe he faked his way through this I don’t know but I didn’t notice a problem until the training incident and after a couple of fires he showed up on.

[E229Lt]

Let the ADA be damned. This just aint the place.



That's a NO

[pfd3501]

Its why you need SOGs in place (even though a lot of village solicitors will tell you that you might as well wipe your butt with your SOGs and you'll get more good out of them)

As said, learning diabilities aren't the same as stupid! As long as they can absorb the curriculum, and perform.

You just need to cover your fd so that if they can't, or won't learn, you can transfer them to the PD or Street Department :D

[snowball]

Originally posted by Firefighter430
Something just doesn’t click most of the time. He’s very quiet most of the time and he watches what others are doing like he’s very interested but when it comes to doing it himself or thinking on his feet he’s lost.
Sounds like A-D-D to me. We just let a rookie go because he couldn't follow instructions. We were very careful to document every unfavorable incident concerning this individual. Sometimes it takes a lot of straw to break that camels back, but if you don't have any documentation to prove your point you might as well promote him because the lawyers will when it's over.

[Weruj1]

ditto Artie .............that person has got to go ......if the are like the pop machine guy , I really dont have a problem, but they would not make it here.

[ullrichk]

The more I think about it, the less I think disability has anything to do with your problem at hand. You wouldn't keep ANYBODY who acted/performed in such a manner, would you?

[ROOKIELZ]

I suppose, one could take the position that it is "discimination" to keep him. After all, anyone else would get the boot. You would be applying the same policies. Like it has been said before document, document, document.
One other question: Has he been shown the difference between the male and female ends?
If he can perform station duties in a competant way "re-assign" him.

[FlyingKiwi]

Stop beating about the bush.

He has done, and been witnessed to do acts that are dangerous to other Firefighters.

End of story.

Please stop this namby pamby do gooder shyte and get real. The person is a bloody menance to himself, every other crew member and the public at large.

A.D.D. and all the rest be damned, you either can or can't do the job, will or wont. And if it is can't or wont, you are history.

Bye Bye.

[npfd801]

You know, we've got some officers that probably qualify as having learning disabilities... Really.

Anyhow, you need to be very careful about a perceived disability. Perception is a horrible thing, trust me. As someone that "suffers" from a so-called disability, I've dealt with this crap far too long.

I am an interior firefighter. I can drag your ass out of a building, carry you down a ladder, and engineer my engine as well as anyone. The state has granted me the certifications I've earned, the fire academy in a suburb of a major metropolitan area graduated me 1st in class, and the fellow recruits in that class voted for me unanimously to receive an award for excellence on the drill field.

I currently volunteer, was career at one time. The career gig didn't go well due to perceptions, nothing more.

I will walk away from firefighting if I'm the weakest link on the scene. This won't happen anytime soon. I'll take the Pepsi challenge with most of the folks on my department, and I'm confident I'll walk away the winner in most cases.

By the way, I'm lacking the bulk of my left arm from the elbow down. Flame if you will, but my department's happy to have me. I could care less what you think. My chief does NOT blow sunshine up asses, I know this for a fact. He would be the first to tell me to go.

But I do agree, if the guy is a menace - lose him. There's folks on my department that have made one too many bonehead moves, and they need to go. One mistake in a long while happens. Multiple mistakes on a fairly regular basis are a threat to folk's safety.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by N2DFire

Document, Document, Document. When (we all know is not a question of "If" anymore) one of these folks decides to sue because of unfair treatment - you better have your paperwork ready.

Another reason to "Document, Document, Document"....is the possibility that this person gets killed or injured, acting on behalf of your department. Now...you guessed it; the shoe is on the other foot, and the department is being sued for allowing him to perform tasks beyond his capability. It's a Catch 22 situation. You're either sued because you wouldn't allow him on or you're being sued when you allow them on and they get hurt or killed.

Maintain a very carefully crafted paper trail.
You'll be glad you did.;)

[NeilMcD]

Originally posted by npfd801
You know, we've got some officers that probably qualify as having learning disabilities... Really.

Anyhow, you need to be very careful about a perceived disability. Perception is a horrible thing, trust me. As someone that "suffers" from a so-called disability, I've dealt with this crap far too long.

I am an interior firefighter. I can drag your ass out of a building, carry you down a ladder, and engineer my engine as well as anyone. The state has granted me the certifications I've earned, the fire academy in a suburb of a major metropolitan area graduated me 1st in class, and the fellow recruits in that class voted for me unanimously to receive an award for excellence on the drill field.

I currently volunteer, was career at one time. The career gig didn't go well due to perceptions, nothing more.

I will walk away from firefighting if I'm the weakest link on the scene. This won't happen anytime soon. I'll take the Pepsi challenge with most of the folks on my department, and I'm confident I'll walk away the winner in most cases.

By the way, I'm lacking the bulk of my left arm from the elbow down. Flame if you will, but my department's happy to have me. I could care less what you think. My chief does NOT blow sunshine up asses, I know this for a fact. He would be the first to tell me to go.

But I do agree, if the guy is a menace - lose him. There's folks on my department that have made one too many bonehead moves, and they need to go. One mistake in a long while happens. Multiple mistakes on a fairly regular basis are a threat to folk's safety.

Amen to that. I'm also a firefighter (interior as well) who would be considered as having a disability. Like npfd says, I would put myself up against anyone else in the department and I'm confident we'd either come out even or I'd win. But the important thing is that the chief/officers have confidence in me and that's all that is needed.

On the question of mutual aid, I've introduced myself to neighboring departments and none of them have raised objections. The understanding I have with my department is that if I feel my disability in any way, shape, or form poses a safety issue for myself or anyone else, I will say so. Likewise, if the officer on-scene feels that my disability would pose a safety hazard, I would remove myself to whatever duties they see fit. No ifs, ands or buts.

My suggestion to all departments that have a person with ANY type of disability is to have a yearly session between an officer and a firefighter/member with a disability that outlines specifically what can and cannot be done. Violations of the agreement would be handled then, in accordance with the bylaws.

This may be a good way to introduce limits. If he follows the agreement for a year, then at the next session, increase his responsiblities by whatever increment you deem necessary. It's a good way to avoid any discrimination allegations and it also helps both the disabled member learn more about the department and you guys get to learn about someone you otherwise never would have gotten to know.