Quint Trucks Kept Richmond Fire Damage Down........and thier staffing

[ehs7554]

Note the 50 positions they cut to get these things. Now everyone has their opinions on quints, but come on... cutting positions can't be good for overall effectiveness.....What do you think?

Quint Trucks Kept Richmond Fire Damage Down


PAIGE AKIN
Courtesy of Richmond Times-Dispatch

They ignited one after the other, going down like so many dominoes.

Buildings along West Broad Street burned as winds from the south spun ashes and flaming insulation from one rooftop to the next.

It was 6 p.m. - about 5? hours after the first call came in - that the fire at 933 W. Broad St. was marked under control Friday.

"We could have lost blocks," said Keith Vida, Richmond assistant fire marshal.

Instead, 29 buildings were destroyed or heavily damaged during the blaze that started at the construction site for a new student-apartment complex at Virginia Commonwealth University.

But the quick work of more than 200 firefighters and the city's 20 "quint" trucks kept the damage from being much worse.

"We would have lost so many buildings," Vida said. "They would have just burned to the ground."

In 1995, the fire department came up with a plan to move to an operational system called the "total quint concept."

Rather than having some companies use engines for water spraying and other companies use ladder trucks to handle ventilation and rescue, the Richmond fire department equipped every company with a quint - an all-around fire vehicle with pumps, hoses and ladders.

The quints cost $500,000, compared with $350,000 for an engine. The department was able to cut 50 firefighter positions because the quints do the job of an engine and a truck.

Vida said the new system has saved the city plenty of money over the years. And Friday was a perfect example of how well they handle major fires.

"When we put this concept in, a lot of people questioned whether we needed a ladder on every truck. For us, it paid off big time last week because a vast majority of the fires started on rooftops because of flying embers. We only had nine ladder trucks in the city before, and there's no way they could have handled this situation."

Seventeen quints from Richmond and one each from Chesterfield and Henrico counties were on scene. Also, fire personnel from Charles City County, Chesterfield and Henrico manned Richmond stations while city firefighters battled the blaze.

In all, 50 fire vehicles responded. By comparison, a routine house fire requires three quints, a rescue truck and a battalion chief.

The first call reporting the West Broad fire came in at 12:32 p.m., and a unit was on scene two minutes later. That vehicle was a rescue truck on its way back from another call. Men on board saw smoke and rushed toward it.

The crew of five carried a small hose line into the front of the building, not realizing that the rear was engulfed in flames.

A second truck coming from another direction saw the huge flames and called for the crew to evacuate.

A second alarm was called in at 12:40. A third alarm came in at 1:04.

Luckily, construction workers had stopped to eat lunch, so they were not inside the building.

"The building was heavily involved [in flames] very quickly. The fire just rolled through the building," Vida said. "It was wood construction, and you've got to have protection on it when it's done, but they were continuing that process. It burned very well and very quickly. Wind was blowing the fire through the building because it's all wide open."

The quints quickly raised their ladders to work on the fire, which was jumping from the VCU building to neighboring rooftops. The ladders can rotate, which made it easier to reach new fires.

"We'd get one knocked down pretty good and then have to start spraying the next one," Vida said.

One near-casualty of the fire was the VCU School of Fine Arts building.

"That could have been a huge loss," he said. "It's better that this happened during the day in terms of getting people out. But I'm surprised some of [the VCU students] didn't get hurt in the fine arts building. The smoke filled the sky. It was fully involved, a very dangerous situation. We could have had some fire deaths."

No VCU students or faculty were injured, but one security officer complained of chest pains, as did one firefighter. Another firefighter suffered a leg injury, but he's already back on duty.

One woman died after the electrical power to her home was cut and she had not charged the backup to her oxygen supply.

"The winds were 25 to 30 miles an hour. The embers were going everywhere. It was like a meteorite that would swoop down on each roof," Vida said. "It was extremely frustrating for the firefighters. You're making progress and trying to save somebody's home, and the one next to it sets fire. I think under the circumstances, our guys did an outstanding job."

Related:

The quints cost $500,000, compared with $350,000 for an engine. The department was able to cut 50 firefighter positions because the quints do the job of an engine and a truck.

[Dalmatian90]

The quints cost $500,000, compared with $350,000 for an engine. The department was able to cut 50 firefighter positions because the quints do the job of an engine and a truck.

:rolleyes:

Some days you're gonna make parking lots and there's nothing you're gonna do about it.

You got all quints here, and you lose 29 buildings. Pawtucket, RI has no quints, worse manpower, and loses a bunch too. Boston has a yacht club go up on windy day, and despite some of the best staffing in the nation they have three other buildings going before they can get it surrounded. Somedays things like woodframe construction or lack of sprinklers combined with stuff like high winds are gonna bite you in the ass and there isn't a damn thing you're gonna do about it.

Quints didn't save the day, Manpower didn't cause the conflagaration.

Argue about the benefits of more manpower on buildings you can save; argue about the tactical advantages of aerial master streams on the first due piece on fires you can stop.

For this fire, anything more than 1 pump operator, running one deck gun, on a pumper hooked up to a hydrant was overkill. Didn't need manpower, didn't need fancy streams, just had to hurl and boatload of water at the exposures.

[stcommodore]

Quints didn't do it all, but does anyone have more information on these trucks?

[FFFRED]

That is an excellent point about the staffing. For a quint doesn't do the job of and Engine and a Truck... TWO Quints Do the Job of what was done by an Engine and a Truck You replace the Engine and Truck and 2 officers and 10 men staffing them every day in my house with 1 quint with half the staffing....I can assure you the one company will not be able to handle the duties assigned to them.

I would like to see a USFA report on this fire. I imagine they will do one since this was such a signifigant fire. They've done many in the past on signifigant fires such as hi-rise fires, conflagarations and explosions.

Obvioulsy this fire would have been big regardless of the type of response. However a politically motivated statement doesn't actually mean the quints or the lower staffing actually helped reduce the losses incured?

Some questions?
-What were water pressures on the Mains, How many quints were used blocks away to relay pump?
-Since there are fewer companies and staffing how much longer did it take to get the necessary men and apparatus on scene to qench the fire? Did this affect the fire growth?
-You can have as many quints and 2000gpm pumps as possible but how many could actually go into operation on thier own?
-Did fewer companies(the same number had to travel a farther distance) contribute to this conflagaration?
-How many companies were actually using their ladder pipes at any one time?
-How did the reduced staffing and fewer companies affect the protection for the remainder of the city? The other taxpayers needed protection as well.

I hope a more in-depth investigation is undertaken to really examine the notion that fewer men and fewer apparatus are beneficial to any city. None of this takes away anything the brothers did there that day. They obviolusly had their hands full with the reduced staffing. Besides I hardly consider loosing all those buildings a political victory for the city administrators who cut staffing and companies.

-FTM-PTB

[RSchmidt]

I really don't want to stir the pot too much-anybody who has been 'round here for awhile already knows how I feel about these fargin' quints....I don't agree with what TQC has done to the manpower situation especially.I will say in all honesty that if it weren't for that many elevated streams that it probably would have been alot worse-given the fact that we only had 7 trucks before it is a simple equation on the face of it. I sure as heck don't agree with so many county units being pulled in to cover stations and assist-but then again even in the pre-quint days we would have had to cover some of our stations with mutual aid(thank god for Chesterfield, Henrico, and Charles City being willing to send their units in to cover)with that many structures involved. My butt gets really chapped with the title of that article: QUINT TRUCKS KEPT RICHMOND FIRE DAMAGE DOWN....bull-poop, balderdash, ballyhoo...RICHMOND FIREFIGHTERS KEPT THE DAMAGE DOWN . Fargin Quint "trucks" had squat to do with it...

[stcommodore]

exactly, if the quit has its main in service can it at the same time lay into a hydrant and have attack lines going? If it can't do that then its only a quint in the way it carries enough to do four jobs, but can only do one job at a time.

[Dave1983]

Great point Fred. We have a quint and if it's first in, it operates as an engine. Any other time it's a truck. With 4 FF's, it cant do both.

Sounds to me like they are still trying to justify laying off 50 FF's. Sad part is the public will buy it.

Dave

[firefiftyfive]

I think what we are simply trying to say is that a quint can be used as either a truck or an engine and that option is left up to the IC. But once it is committed to one or the other it has to stay committed. No way in hell can a crew do both truck and engine work. In my Dept. we have a 95ft platform with a 2000gpm pump, the county designates it as a TRUCK and so do we, we don't "attack" fires with it. The only thing we ever truly use the pump for is to flow water out of the master stream, instead of having an engine feed us through our waterway; just gives us a little more control. TRUCKS should NOT have pumps and should not be doing engine work!!!!!IMHO


And like a few said earlier: It was not the Quints that saved the day, it was the Richmond FFs.

[FORTff]

Quints are just an excuse for different municipalities to justify cutting down on firefighters and fire apparatus to save money to buy nice leather chairs to pad their asses.

Cutting down on 50 firefighters and cutting down apparatus is rediculous. Philadelphia is currently tossing around the idea of lowering the manpower from 5 to 4 on the trucks, or closing firehouses, or combining companies and buying approx. 15 quints, it simply doesn't work that way! The city has a huge defecit that's true, but now you're risking lives, that's a load of BS.

Back to Richmond, the first couple quints their may have been effective, but so would properly staffed engines and trucks. How many mains were in service? It was a good point, maybe 5 or 6 or 7 of the mains were put in service using ladders pipes, but how many were on hydrants a couple blocks away wasting that $500,000 truck that could have cost $350,000.

I'm a big anti-quint person, I feel that you cannot do the job of two with one. The proper tools can't be carried because of the room that the pump, tank, and hose take up. So can you honestly carry a proper compliment of ground ladders and all of the proper truck tools such as saws, ropes, and other tools, along with all of the proper engine tools? I doubt it, how many people still carry ground ladders over 35 ft. long? Why did people stop? Because we're lazy, they never get used (until you need them, then you're cursing the world), they're heavy, no room because there is a TANK AND PUMP in the way.

[firefiftyfive]

Originally posted by FORTff

I'm a big anti-quint person, I feel that you cannot do the job of two with one. The proper tools can't be carried because of the room that the pump, tank, and hose take up. So can you honestly carry a proper compliment of ground ladders and all of the proper truck tools such as saws, ropes, and other tools, along with all of the proper engine tools? I doubt it, how many people still carry ground ladders over 35 ft. long? Why did people stop? Because we're lazy, they never get used (until you need them, then you're cursing the world), they're heavy, no room because there is a TANK AND PUMP in the way.

EXCELLENT POINT BRO..........EXCELLENT

[Bones42]

I am a believer in Quints. Then again, I'm from a volunteer department so no one is trying to cut my manpower, and I feel bad for those of you that have that happening. I have 2 stations in my town and 1 will be running a 85' ft quint first out and the other currently runs a 50' teleboom first out. Both run with 5 - 7 guys for each call and depending on the situation, 1 will be used as a truck and 1 will be used as an engine. The next call, the roles may be reversed. There's places the 50' won't reach and there's places the 85' won't fit. As for the equipment they carry, on the 85' I can't think of anything that it does not have, with the exception of ground ladders over 35', but then again, we have not had one of those in the last 22 years. The 50' only has a 16' roof and 24' 2 section ladder, but the 85' will have 12' roof, 2 16' roofs, 2 24' extentions, 1 35' extention. Plus, both trucks will be at the same scene so there is plenty of ladders available. Both also carry 3 13/4" 200' preconnects, 800' 2 1/2", and 1000' 5". Can quints do the job? Yup. They can do it well. They just (unfortunatly) get a bad rap because they are used as manpower killers by cities and towns. That is unfortunate.

But don't blame the truck, blame the town and city politicians.

[FORTff]

TO BUY (OR NOT TO BUY) A QUINT

BY JAKE RIXNER

Many fire departments across the country are exploring the possibility of purchasing a quint. These five-function vehicles offer progressive fire service leaders new options on their arrival at the scene of a working fire.

As with any radical new concept, "working the bugs out" to optimize performance takes time, commitment, and training by all parties involved. This article examines my actual experiences trying to achieve these goals. (Note: Switching to quints is a major decision. Thoroughly study the issue from various perspectives, especially how it will "fit" your department and affect firefighter safety and performance. See "The Pros and Cons of Quints" for some factors that should be considered.)

Richmond, Virginia, is a city that encompasses 200,000 people in an area of 62.5 miles. It has been home to Phillip Morris and several other large tobacco companies for many years. In addition, south Richmond was the site of many acres of tobacco warehouses. The process of producing cigarettes is an inherent fire hazard, since tobacco must be stored to dry and is processed and transported to manufacturing machines through ductwork. Tobacco dust is a highly explosive by-product of producing cigarettes. One result of the dangers faced by this industry is that we have a superior municipal water distribution system. These large warehouses require large fire flows.

In 1971, the Richmond Fire Bureau (RFB) consisted of 25 two-piece engine companies, nine senior aerial ladder companies, and two tactical squad companies. Each was staffed with an officer and five firefighters. The last ISO rating for the RFB, in the early 1970s, was Class II Fire Bureau. By 1982, the RFB consisted of 20 engines, nine trucks, and one squad. Seven of the engine companies were two-piece; 13 were single-piece. The daily minimum staffing was 150 firefighters on duty.

Fiscal difficulties throughout the next 13 years led to the department's being whittled down to 20 engines, all one-piece, and six trucks, with no tactical squads. In 1996, newly appointed Fire Chief Jack McElfish, faced with more fiscal constrictions, proposed a "total quint concept." The plan called for 20 quint companies, eliminating all truck companies, and creating three new heavy rescue companies.

Taking the department from 26 companies down to 23 companies caused a reduction of 50 firefighters, with a minimum citywide staffing of 100 firefighters per day-a 33 percent reduction in just 13 years. A contract was awarded for the following:
four quints with 105-foot aerial ladders with 300-gallon booster tanks;
14 quints with 75-foot aerial ladders with 500-gallon booster tanks; and
one 100-foot platform, commonly know as a tower, that carries 200 gallons of water.

In addition, we purchased nine Class B 500-gpm pumpers on commercial chassis with the intentions of deploying these units to the companies with the most EMS runs.

A draft was compiled:

First-due units would function as an engine company.
Second-due units would do truck work.
The heavy rescue was responsible for search and rescue.
Third-due units would perform engine operations.
Fourth-due units would function as the second truck.
Fifth-due units would perform engine operations.

CHRISTMAS IN MARCH
I was a lieutenant at Engine 6 when our quint was delivered. Enthusiasm was high when we were sent to the training division and turned over on our new quint with just four hours of instruction. We were all excited to receive a new piece of equipment. I was concerned about the brevity of the training. My platoon consisted of three firefighters and one vacant position. The two senior firefighters each had nine years of service, all in an engine company. The junior firefighter had seven years on the job. He had only a couple of years of service in a truck company. I had served eight years in an engine company before being promoted to lieutenant and was assigned to a busy truck company for six years before coming to Engine Company 6. Two months later, we were assigned a rookie to fill the vacancy. We should have recognized the lack of ladder company experience as an indication of the challenges ahead. Many officers voiced these concerns to the administration through channels. Other company commanders found themselves with the opposite problem: firefighters who had spent entire careers in ladder companies but had never been to pump school and didn't know how to pump. Once again, concerns sent through the chain of command fell on deaf ears.

THE INJURIES BEGIN

It wasn't long after all of the companies had received the quints that uncommon things started to become common. The supply hose was located in a bed under the aerial ladder. To lay out the hose required that it pass under the turntable through a chute approximately eight feet long. While laying hose, couplings would jam or catch before entering the chute, resulting in the four-inch supply hose's being dragged up the street behind the apparatus. If the hose was wrapped around the hydrant, the hydrant was pulled from the ground like a weed.

Another dangerous situation occurred when the hose was pulled tight. It would break and snap like a whip. It was only by the grace of God that no citizens were injured or killed. The same can't be said of the firefighters. One firefighter was struck in the leg while taking a hydrant. It was six months before he regained feeling in his leg. Another firefighter sustained a nearly fatal basil skull fracture while taking a hydrant. He was flung 12 feet into the air and landed on his head when the hose pulled taught and broke at the coupling. The hose itself traveled more than 100 feet and wrapped itself violently around a large tree. There were many other near misses before the problem was solved.

SLOW RIDE
Have you ever traveled by bus? Do you remember how slow the trip was? Responding to a fire in a quint is a lot like riding a bus. Yes, you will arrive but maybe a little late. I have six successful rescues from burning buildings in my career, and I can state with certainty that four of those people didn't have 15 seconds left to spare. I have been to other jobs where other firefighters made rescues with no time to spare. Time is the essential ingredient in rescue.

Minor accidents are common with quints; it seems that we are constantly making contact with other objects that result in bent metal. Even our most careful chauffeurs have had problems. The B-platoon at # 6 was the last shift to wrinkle the quint. We had just cleared from a run; the driver was cutting the wheel hard to avoid a parked auto when the rear end of the apparatus swung out into moving traffic, causing a collision. Interestingly enough, most of our collisions with the quints are returning from alarms not responding.

LONELY DUTY
Prior to the quint concept, half of the Richmond fire stations were double stations-an engine and a truck. Now, only three double stations remain. It's very lonely working in a building designed for 12 firefighters when only four are working. Ancillary duties such as cleaning the fire station are carried out with half of the personnel. Other duties, such as building inspections and hydrant maintenance, are performed by fewer people.

Because there are fewer firefighters working in each fire station, we must empty more stations to have 16 firefighters at a dwelling fire or a minimum of 25 at a target hazard. The result is large areas of the city are left unprotected during the incident. A fire in an apartment building in the Fulton Hill neighborhood in the pre-quint days would empty three stations. Today, the same response would require emptying five stations. This strips downtown and the entire east end of the city of fire protection and commits 25 percent of the on-duty suppression forces.

HISTORY LESSONS
An old adage that rings true is "Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it." Our grandfathers worked with 75-foot aerial ladders and 500-gpm pumpers and found both deficient. Now 50 years later, we have forgotten history and are rediscovering lessons learned long ago.

I was the first-in officer at a fire in a four-story type III 50- 2 200-foot nursing facility of type III construction. The fire was on the third floor; people were trapped in the building because of the heavy smoke. I had six quint companies, a heavy rescue, and a battalion chief, all of whom would be on-scene in a few minutes. I had the ball for the moment. I radioed to the next-arriving engine to take the standpipe system. Then I realized that it was responding with its 500-gpm pumper, not the exact card you want to play in this hand. We put a quick knock on the fire and vented the building. No lives were lost, but any fireground commander will tell you added distractions are unneeded and extremely stressful at a critical life-and-death incident.

SIZE MATTERS

The booster tank size is reduced on quint apparatus because of weight and space considerations. I remember returning from a full first-alarm assignment one evening. As we were returning to quarters, communications sent #5 to a vehicle fire on I-95. As we approached our own quarters, we were sent to assist #5. I was puzzled. I've never been special called to an automobile fire before. When we got there, officer #5 told me he had used up his 200 gallons of water. We had only 300 more gallons to add. As we stood on the side of the interstate, the irony hit me: We had well over a million dollars worth of equipment and two aerial ladders on this call, but we didn't have enough water to extinguish a simple automobile fire. That's progress?

LADDER COMPANY DUTIES
I surveyed 10 fire departments that have used quints. All reported a lack of truck company functions at working fires. In Firefighting Principles & Practices, Second Edition (Fire Engineering, 1991), William E. Clark states that the common difference between paid and volunteer fire departments is the quality of the ladder company functions performed. I have experienced the lack of truck work at fires since the implementation of the quints. It is common to respond to fires in Richmond as the assigned truck company and to be ordered to take a hydrant and stretch a hoseline. Truck work truly suffers.

I understand that most government bodies have limited amounts of money for public services and that the tighter money gets, the more innovative we must become. Although quint-type apparatus are innovative, I'm not convinced they are for everyone. What looks great on paper doesn't always work in the real world. The challenges I've related in this article are a day-to-day source of frustration for the front-line forces in Richmond, Virginia. Like most firefighters, we are can-do people and are trying our utmost to make the best of what we have.

Before you buy into this new concept, study your response area carefully. Ask yourself these questions: Is this type of apparatus a good fit for my needs? Are the roads wide enough and bridges strong enough to accommodate these apparatus? Are we willing to commit to extensive training so all our people will be qualified in both ladder work and pumping skills?

Finally, we must never forget that it is the people riding the apparatus who stretch the hose, make the rescues, and knock down fires. Our quints are big and beautiful with lots of chrome, flashing lights, and other gadgetry. However, if given a choice between modern fire trucks with mediocre firefighters and that "plain-Jane" 1976 Mack pumper with motivated and dedicated firefighters like we had at Engine 5, I'll take the old Mack every trip of the train.

Is there a way to achieve the discipline necessary to accomplish effective ladder company duties using this type of apparatus? If anyone out there has the answer, please share it with us all.

The Pros and Cons of Quints
ADVANTAGES

It looks good on paper. An increase in pump capacity can be shown, as has been done in Richmond, Virginia, and St. Louis, Missouri, when the departments purchased fleets of quints with 2,000-gpm pumps.
Reduction of staffing = saving money. By staffing each quint with four persons, the staffing of separate truck companies is effectively eliminated. This results in large savings of personnel salaries.
Increase in the number of aerial ladders available. Every piece of apparatus now is equipped with a "big stick."
Apparatus able to perform engine or truck tasks. The quint offers the flexibility to perform as an engine or a truck, as needed.
An all-new fleet. If a department chooses to use an "all-quint fleet," it will acquire an entire new fleet of firefighting apparatus at one time.
Four-door cabs with air-conditioning. This is an advantage over older apparatus, since the firefighters are safely enclosed in the vehicle. Rehabilitation time during hot weather is greatly reduced because of air-conditioning.
Ability to make immediate ladder rescues above the third floor. Having an aerial ladder on each piece of apparatus makes it possible to make quicker rescues above the third floor, since no time is wasted waiting for other companies to arrive.
Superior ladder pipe. The ladder pipe on the quint is prepositioned and is instantly ready for use. It also can sweep a 180° area, as opposed to older-style ladder nozzles, which can only sweep 30°.

DISADVANTAGES

Difficult to maneuver. The apparatus is large, is heavy, and can be difficult to maneuver in traffic. It is more difficult to turn the quint into narrow streets than a pumper. There has been a marked increase in the number of vehicle-involved accidents compared with the times when more traditional apparatus were used.
Increased maintenance and fuel costs. Many separate systems-the water pump, motor and drivetrain, aerial ladder hydraulic system, and electric generator, for example-are placed close together. Mechanics often have to remove these items to access the component in need of repair. This is time consuming and, consequently, costly.

Also, the quints have shown a reduced brake service life and increased tire wear. All 10 tires on Quint 6 needed to be replaced after just 10,000 miles.

Increased response time. Reduced maneuverability has increased response time. Firefighters have found that they have to dismount at short intersections and back up the apparatus, which significantly increases response time.

Also, because the average quint weighs more than a pumper, it is more likely to encounter bridge weight restrictions in the response district, which results in a longer response time.

Increase in unprotected areas during emergencies. The reduction in staffing means that more companies are needed on the first alarm (to have sufficient personnel at the scene). This results in more areas being left unprotected.
Perfect positioning needed. The 75-foot ladder has come up short when perfect positioning at the fire scene is not possible.
All-at-once purchase poses risks. Purchasing an entire fleet at one time is risky because one specification error or miscalculation can result in the entire fleet's becoming problematic for the next 15 to 20 years.
Insufficient personnel for engine and truck functions. It is impossible with a staff of only four firefighters to effectively do both engine company functions and truck company work with the same crew.
Fire station renovations may be needed. Old fire stations may have to be renovated to accommodate the quint. The quint's weight may necessitate changes in the floor support design, and the station's door size may have to be modified to accommodate the quint's height.
Ineffective ladder company function. Many departments that use quints report that ladder company functions are not being performed effectively. Therefore, for normal ladder company functions to be performed in a timely manner, strict operating procedures must be enforced.
Insufficient space for ground ladders. The quint, since it is to perform as an engine and a truck, does not have enough space to carry the equivalent footage of ground ladders as senior tractor-drawn ladders.
Smaller booster tank. The quint's booster tank size might be much smaller than a conventional triple combination pumper.

JAKE RIXNER, a 22-year veteran of the fire service, is a company officer for the Richmond (VA) Department of Fire and Emergency Services, an instructor with Virginia Fire Programs, and a volunteer firefighter with the Kentland Fire Department in Prince George's County, Maryland.

Fire Engineering April, 2001
Author(s) : Jake Rixner

[CaptOldTimer]

Just another unhappy person expressing their views.


Actually the Quint's are functioning very well.

[Bones42]

From reading his article, there are a lot of problems with TRAINING on the vehicles, not the vehicles themselves.

- just four hours of instruction.
- firefighters who had spent entire careers in ladder companies but had never been to pump school and didn't know how to pump
- couplings would jam or catch before entering the chute
- we are constantly making contact with other objects that result in bent metal

[TEKRSQ]

Ok, I've lurked long enough.

Capt, Is this all you have to do since retirement? While I cannot comment on the accuracy of what we had in the old days, I can damn well say that the rest of the article is DEAD ON. The quints were brought to Richmond for the sole purpose of cutting manpower. Our puppet (oops, I mean chief)was told to cut our staffing or the city admin would find a chief that would. It's as simple as that. Your comments (not only this thread, but others I've seen you post in)are typical of the attitudes that have driven this dept to the lowest moral I have EVER seen. The sad part is, you guys have been saying that junk so long, you're actually starting to believe it. "Just another unhappy person expressing their views" Why do you think we are so unhappy? While I may not agree with all of Jake's "issues", I have NO problem following him into a fire. Which is more than I can say for a bunch of our "officers". So yes, he'll probably be a LT the rest of his career, and I'll be firefighter the rest of my career. If people won't be promoted on their MERITS instead of how far they can climb up anal cavities, then this dept is DOOMED. Look around, it's already started to crumble. But then I guess from your branch high atop the tree, it was hard to see what's really happening on the ground.

As for the quints, they are functioning ONLY because we have to make them work. Have you ever heard the old saying "Anything that does everything, does nothing well" ?? Truer words have never been spoken. We tried to give the quint concept the benefit of the doubt. Everyone knew there would be growing pains, but it's obvious to every WORKING member in the field the concept (in it's present form) is not working the way it's supposed to. The biggest issues being (1)manpower, (2)training, (3)reserve appartus.

I had a long reponse to this post, but decided against it, for fear of retaliation that is rampant in our dept. If anyone would like the REAL status of the quint concept, please email me your name and phone number, and I'll be more than happy to call you. tekrsq@comcast.net.

Be safe brothers.

[R1SAlum]

Captain Old Timer

You had some untruths in your post. Jimmy didn't stay for a few years with us; it was a few months. He left because of an unworkable residency requirement we had at the time. You feel the need to lay out a synopsis of his career and predict its demise on an internet message board. I'm positive he would love to know your name since you used his name in your post. Jimmy is a close friend who speaks his mind for what he feels is right and is as stand-up as your gonna find in this business.

Zeke Slavik
DCFD
Not ashamed to remain a Lieutenant like my brother.

[CALFFBOU]

Originally posted by CaptOldTimer
Actually the Quint's are functioning very well.

#1. I havent meet CaptOldTimer in person yet, but I believe him.

#2. Again, Quints are NOT always "manpower killers."
Depending on how you use them, they are a great resource.
They have been around since the mid-60s and work well here.

[CaptOldTimer]

R1SAlum,


I could tell you more but not in here.

[tjsnys]

The RFD Chief seized upon the opportunity to tout the virtues of his total quint concept. I guess politically that’s what you do, seize upon a negative/positive situation as an opportunity to help justify unpopular manpower reductions or the closing of firehouses. Similar to the press release from the NYC Administration that civilian fire deaths are down in the first quarter of this year. See, we closed Fire Houses and there were less civilian deaths. Boy the fire prevention program really had a big impact this year. Or, could it be due to reinstating some of the 5 man Engine Co’s. Or, maybe the brothers are continuing to do their job well. Or, could it just be the luck of the draw, I’d like to think it was the latter two.

It appears, thankfully, that things worked out well for the RFD and civilians of Richmond. We all know it was the dedication and hard work of the RFD brothers that led to the successful outcome, not the big red quint fire truck. The quint is a tool and like any other tool utilized in the fire service it has its limitations, based upon the situations/conditions that are encountered. However, it cannot and will not enable you to replace or reduce the manpower required to aggressively and systematically perform the duties of truck and engine co’s. Hey, the hydraulic forcible entry device (rabbit tool) is a great tool and under the right circumstances can greatly enhance the expediency of forcing doors and performing searches. However, it is not the end all and in no way eliminates the need for a minimum of two FF’s performing forcible entry (FE) and search duties. Nor, does it eliminate the need to carry and be proficient in the use of the haligan/axe, through the lock FE-devices and the FE-saw.

It appears from the onset - for the most part - this operation was defensive in nature. I have little knowledge of RFD procedures and specifics of this incident so I would be totally off base making any type comments or coming to any type of conclusions on this incident. It’s understandable that you cannot staff for the 5-10 year big one.

However, If I were in the RFD Chiefs boots, I’d be thinking about the what if’s -------.
What if this incident had occurred at 12:30am instead of pm? What type of conditions would the first arriving quints encountered? How would my tactics have been changed? Would I have been able to mount (manpower #’s) an expedited offensive operation on the multiple exposures with known - expanded life hazards present – (search-rescue-evacuation-fire containment operation)? How many single & multiple occupancies were exposure problems and how many units did they contain? Exactly how many civilians would have been home asleep that would have required assisted evacuation and/or rescue? Would I’ve been issuing the same positive statement to the media? Hopefully I could.

Congratulations to the RFD guys who did the job.

[captstanm1]

I do not personally know captoldtimer either...but I do know some other folks in and around Richmond who do not have "sour grapes" or an "axe to grind." I also believe what captoldtimer has to say.

I am a believer in quints in this day and age.. Years ago I would have said....a "truck don't need no stinkin water!" In retrospect I will admit that was a narrow minded approach to service delivery.

My department is attempting to get a FEMA grant for a Qunit this year and we will replace 3 aging pieces of equipment with one and make it a multi-purpose unit that's primary function will be aerial ops. It makes sense to us in this day and age as the city expands. When we get the Quint it will go be a front line piece and help us be better prepared to serve as the city continues to grow. And......We will not cut positions,......in fact we will ask for 3 more people each year until we have sufficient staffing to fill two stations with a target of 4 people minimum on duty at all times at each station.

[RSchmidt]

Well here I am not trying to stir the pot.....hehe....

I wanna point out just a few things. Replacing 3 aging apparatus with quints and TQC are completely different. Kinda like apples and oranges. I am more than confident that your experience with quints and Richmonds will be at different ends of the spectrum...

I can assure you the Chief who thought of TQC isn't anymore as he is now Chief of Gwinnett County Fire in Georgia. I can assure you that the current Chief probably isn't thinking of it to much either...

I can think of at least 3 Firefighters from Richmond who have been on these forums and given negative endorsements of TQC and in some small part, quints in general...1 Captain(I guess he's a Captain) comes on here and says "The quints are working very well" and "Just another person expressing their unhappy views" and SHAZAM!!!Quints and TQC are fantabulous?!?!

Now I am not saying that quints are bad for everybody. For some they work very well(stirring the pot!). But if TQC is so darn good then why is Richmond the ONLY city using it. Correct me if I am wrong but St. Louis stopped, right? I mean it's such a great idea why isn't TQC everywhere? Atlanta, Memphis, Los Angeles, Houston, Boston...

Quints maybe good for some departments. They have not been good here, in Richmond, because they were used to cut staffing. TQC is a real danger not only here, but to other departments.

Am I wrong in believing that the only way TQC can work, or on a simpler note a quint,effectively is to INCREASE staffing on that apparatus so that they are capable of doing engine and truck company operations at the same time?

Oh well...Like I said...The job Richmond did had nothing to do with those fargin' quints and everything to do with them...Geeze, even if you gave those folks garden hose and gas they'd put it out!!!

:D

P.S. I know Lt. Rixner as well, and though he has done his fair share of "not too bright things" he still does what he's supposed to-he fights fire. I'd follow him in down that long, dark, smokey hallway...

[JakeRixner]

Captain Hynant,

I see your on here throwing stones, Perhaps now that you've retired you want to sit here and take shots at better men than you.

Don't forget, If you want to start something, i've got plenty to share with this board on you. Give me a call at home and we can talk like grown ups.

i hope you were just typing while drinking.

[cozmosis]

Originally posted by CALFFBOU
Again, Quints are NOT always "manpower killers."
Depending on how you use them, they are a great resource.
They have been around since the mid-60s and work well here.

Not always.

However, if you combine a truck company (with 4-5 firefighters) and an engine company (with 3-4 firefighters) into a single quint company with 4-5 guys... you aren't helping anyone -- the firefighters or the citizens.

[Quint1Medic]

eh...not worth getting in the middle of this one...

[captstanm1]

Ok...let me clarify.... I read the discussion here to be on the use of a Quint vs a Regular Aerial to improve efficiency and response capabilities....did not understand it to be centered around the "TQC". Based on that,.....I can not comment on TQC but was rather expressing my opinion of quint vs the other. And...was expressing support for the opinions of my other friend the "Captain"

Seems that some of you want to turn this into a mud slinging personal battle to settle some issues that do not even relate to the subject at hand... Can we get it back on track?

[TEKRSQ]

I think the 2 go hand in hand. The title of this thread is "Quint Trucks Kept Richmond Fire Damage Down......and their staffing".

[RSchmidt]

A) What's wrong with slinging a little mud from time to time?

B) Are you really sure that it is indeed mud?

C) I really can't stand TQC and I really loose all semblance of the normal calm, cool, & collected person I usually am....

Seriously- If you can't gripe amongst brothers,sisters and friends who can you gripe amongst?

:D

[TEKRSQ]

Originally posted by Quint1Medic
eh...not worth getting in the middle of this one...

............

[FIREPIGRFD]

CAPTDOUBLECHECK SAYS:(and he knows who i mean)

Just another unhappy person expressing their views.


Actually the Quint's are functioning very well.


bullshists

FUNCTIONING AS WHAT? ASHTRAYS!

SITTING ON A DESK FOR 159 YEARS MAY HAVE FRIED HIS BRAIN.

So far 3 RFD people have come on this thread and voiced an opinion 180 degrees from his. 3 very good men. They seem to agree that this system isn't all it is cracked up to be. Well boys and girls I am number 4. If it wasn't for a bunch of hard chargers keeping this system afloat, we would not be "qUINT cITY U.S.A.".
CAPTDOUBLECHECK was part of the lynch mob that shoved these much broken down pieces of dung down our throats.
CAPTDOUBLECHECK was in on the planning AND designing of the quint system and writing of the OP'S on this system. How many free trips to the Pierce factory did he get? Has he ever worked in suppression long enough to run any calls on one, let alone work a job with one? Oh i forgot, the last time he was in the "FIELD" working with the grunts, he fell off 9 truck, injuring himself right back into administration.

GROW SOME KACHUNGAS, BACK THE REAL MEN. TELL THE TRUTH.

The man that wrote the article on the pros and cons of the quint system probably fought "MORE" fire as a junior fire fighter in Pennsylvania than you ever dreamed about in all the years you listened to the scanner in Sandston while the real troops were out doing the job CAPTDOUBLECHECK only could dream of doing.

CAPTDOUBLECHECK: OVER AND OUT

THE PIG HAS SPOKEN

[allineedisu]

Although I am new to the forums, I have been in the fire service since 1985. I have read a lot of these forums and have only replied to some like 15 times.

I guess what I am trying to say, is, that it appears that this thread has gotten off the subject and a bunch of peoples are attacking one or another about their views.

I thought that this is what the forums were about.

If, like in this thread, the quints worked, that is great. if for some reason they didn't thats another subject. There are not for every body. I think St. Louis is the only other department that uses them.

I have researched this fire department, since it is like 100 miles from where I am. I don't think any thing would have been any different if they had their 20 engines and 7 trucks like they did before the quints started arriving. They still would have had a lot on their plate that friday afternoon. Like the news reports in our area and also in richmond has said, the wind played a importnat part in the fire spread. Had the wind been calm that day, it would in all cases would have been contained in the building that this fire started.

I only see that this is a means of attacking someone that probably knows what he or she is talking about.

As mention by firepigrfd, he stated "How many free trips to the Pierce factory did he get?" Actually, having been on the apparatus committee in my city, there IS NO FREE TRIPS!!! If is all figured in with the bid for any fire apparatus. The city actually is paying for the vists to sum up the construction and the inspections as the trucks are being built.

I didn't mean to get carried away on this. I only wanted to say that I don't think it is the right place to beat folks down.

[aerialgod]

Is this a private fight or can a brother from Australia join in?
I'm a Rescue officer of 20 years professional experience in Sydney and have had experience with the operations and tactics both of quint type vehicles and larger tower type aerials as well.
Any apparatus can do a job well BUT it must be staffed with trained and competent personnel.
The tendency of city and State Governments using the purchase of these apparatus to enforce budget[staffing] cuts is universal. Believe me it happens all over the world.
In our city [4.5 million people]we mainly run pumpers as 1st response to property fires but have a mix of quint type vehicles which are available to be utilised [if required].Out of approximately 105 Stations in our city we have 12 quint types which provide valuable assistance to our pumps and trucks.
We also have Ladder Platforms and Turntable Tower ladders to tackle the high work. All of these are 120 footers.
The points raised about the abilities of the quints are all valid and cut across national boundaries.
Unfortunately so do the asinine decisions of the city and state administrators who use any excuse to slash budgets and manning.
It is easy to buy new trucks and have your pic in the papers braying about how the standard of Fire Protection is improved.
But the real criminals are those asses who believe that the slashing of budgets and safety standards is equivalent to saving lives.
We are lucky over here,a STRONG union keeps the Government idiots in check and we are blessed with a Commissioner who has "run down the dark and smoky hallways" and will still do it if the occasion demands it.
He has publicly announced a commitment to improving safety and training and this has resulted in increased morale inside the Firehouse.
A long and possibly boring rave but the point is this.
"Firetrucks don't save lives, firefighters save lives. You can buy chrome and steel but you can't buy experience and dedication"

Stay Safe and Stay United

[jfire3134]

In our department as I'm sure in yours the first in pumper attacks the fire, the second in catches the plug. I've never understood why you would cut down your initial attack capabilities by cutting down on your tank water.

A neighboring vollie dept uses all quints, and that move wasn't thought too highly by the surrounding departments. For obvious reasons already stated. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just state an opinion :rolleyes:

[FIREPIGRFD]

Have any of you ever heard the phrase, if you are stupid and know it, you are not too dangerous. But if you are stupid and don't know it, this is a person that will get you killed.

Someone said in this forum that quints are not manpower killers. Did you bump your head? Look at all the big city departments that have gone to using or have tried to go to some style of a quint or total quint concept. The reason for all of these quint purchases is to cut manpower. Nowhere has it ever been said in Richmond, or anywhere else, that we are going to this system because it is a tried and true idea. Richmond has always been behind the curve on any new concept to come along in the fire service. This is the first time we ever in history, jumped on ANY bandwagon. AS for the cat that said the trips to the factory aren't "FREE". You are 100% correct, but it didn't cost CAPTDOUBLECHECK a single penny to go on these trips. Hence the free trip jab at CAPTDOUBLECHECK.
Who is looking at this objectivly and reading what is being said? The quint concept in Richmond "SUX" period. How many nay votes do you have to read before the one aye vote gets over-ridden. And that vote came from CAPTDOUBLECHECK, THE GUY that bad mouthed someone in this forum for disagreeing with the quint idea.
CAPTDOUBLECHECK is a friggin monday MORON quarterback, a no fire fighting, non leader, wanna be fire fighter. period. He is not more than a buff that worked in our office for 600 years.
In the fire service, if you know the meaning of "DINOSAUR" and think it is a good term to use for certain people in your organization, then you are ok. This cat is a dinosaur to beat all dinosaurs.
People, READ what everyone is writing. Dude you may live about 100 miles from Richmond. But if you aren't reading all the posts on here, then after digesting them come up with the slightest inkling of what has happened here, then something is wrong.

If you are stupid and know it, you are not too dangerous. But if you are stupid and don't know it, this is a person that will get you killed.
CAPTDOUBLECHECK: OVER AND OUT

LONG LIVE THE PIG

[Bones42]

If you just posted comments and didn't bother with all the name calling crap, you'd get a little more "respect" from people. Seeing the far side of this that you are on, I have a hard time taking anything from you objectively.

Don't blame the trucks, blame the city. The City is the one that is cutting the manpower.

[FIREPIGRFD]

RESPECT! I DON'T NEED NO STINKING RESPECT!

THE PEOPLE THAT MATTER TO ME RESPECT ME AND I RESPECT THEM.

I WONDER HOW MANY PEOPLE GET A JOB WITH A BIG TIME PAID FIRE DEPARTMENT AND JUST DON'T GET IT. ITS SUCH A GREAT CAREER, I CAN ADVANCE WAY UP THE LADDER, HHHMMMMMM, THANK THE FIRE GODS THAT A FEW CHOOSE THIS WONDERFUL UNDERTAKING AS A CALL FROM ABOVE. TO FIGHT FIRE AND SAVE LIVES. NOT TO SEE HOW MUCH GOLD THEY CAN GET PINNED TO THEIR COLLAR. THANK YOU FOR THE MEN THAT ONE NEVER SEES. THE ONES THAT GO INSIDE TO KICK AZZ AND DO THE JOB THAT THE GLORIFIED BUFFS WITH A LITTLE GOLD AROUND THE COLLAR, OUTSIDE, ONLY WISH THEY HAD THE KACHUNGAS TO DO THEMSELVES.

RICHMOND WILL SPEND 35 MILLION DOLLARS OVER 15 YEARS ON QUINTS AND UPKEEP ON THEM, WHY? SO THEY COULD CUT 50 POSITIONS AND SAVE 15 MILLION DOLLARS. THIS HAS TO BE A GRAND CASE OF "IDIOTS AT WORK" IN THEIR FINEST HOUR.

AND THE QUINTS WE GOT ARE JUNK. YES, I DO BLAME THE QUINTS FOR THE SYSTEM BEING AT FAULT. WHEN ONE WINDOW WON'T GO UP AND THE OTHER WON'T GO DOWN OR SIMPLY FALLS OUT ON THE GROUND WHEN A SMALL BUMP IS HIT. FRAMES THAT BREAK REPEATEDLY, BRAKES WEARING OUT MONTHLY ON THE SAME RIG, TIRES THAT WEAR OUT FROM TURNING CORNERS SO MUCH THAT THE RIG NEVER SEES THE SAME RUBBER HOOP FOR MORE THAN 5,000 MILES, RESPONDING ON CALLS AND HAVING THE COMPUTER SHUT DOWN THE RIG FOR NO REASON, HAVING IT SHUT DOWN EVERY TIME YOU SLOW AT AN INTERSECTION, SAFETY ISSUES, MIND YOU, NOT JUST NICKLE AND DIME QUIRKS. SO MANY THAT MOST COMPANIES STARTED KEEPING DAILY LOGS OF THE BREAK DOWNS, AND FILLING THEM IN A FEW SHORT MONTHS.

AT THE SAME TIME NOTHING WAS BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM FOR ALL THE QUINTS BEING BROKE AT THE SAME TIME OR HALF BROKE DOWN AND 3 COMPANIES OUT OF SERVICE BECAUSE ADMINISTRATION CAN'T FIGURE HOW TO TABULATE MANPOWER NEEDS BEYOND 10 FINGERS AND 10 TOES.
WE COULD HAVE A MAJOR HIGH RISE FIRE DOWNTOWN WITH NO QUINTS IN SERVICE BECAUSE OF THESE REASONS, AND ONLY FIRST RESPONSE VEHICLES WITH 500 GPM PUMPS AND 200 GALLONS OF WATER AND NO LADDERS RESPOND.
WE MAY AS WELL CROSS TRAIN THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS MOUNTED PATROL HORSES TO START PULLING SOME STEAM WAGONS AGAIN. HIRE 10 HORSES AND CAN 10 FIREFIGHTERS.

THINK OF THE HORSE SHI.. WE COULD PUT UP WITH THEN...

MAKES SENSE TO ME.

CAPTDOUBLECHECK: 10-4 GOOD BUDDY OVER AND OUT
THE PIG HAS OINKED ENOUGH

[stcommodore]

I can see a quint being a good second out peice for a volly company. Are there any rescue quints?

[FORTff]

Why do you think they'd be better as a second out piece? Explain please....

[FIREPIGRFD]

I can see a quint being good for a low volume call company. We have actual rescue companies with a different type of rig than the quints. Our system is flawed for different reasons than a volunteer company with limited manpower would face. It still is just a ladder truck with a pump and a tank. It would probably make a great truck company. You could also put some rescue gear on it.

CAPTDOUBLECHECK: YOUR SCANNER IS TOO LOUD TURN IT DOWN... OH THATS ONE OF OUR PORTABLES.

OINK OINK SAID THE PIG

[RSchmidt]

As much as I hate pigs...I mean they wallow in mud, ****e on themselves, have you ever seen a pig that was good for anything else but food?

But...

Da PIG is right...

Geeze...Oink,oink!?!?!

[stcommodore]

Like I said for a low to mid voloume company a quint would be a good peice to have if you only had a limited amount of drivers. I still also think a rescue quint would be a great truck.

[FORTff]

How though?
What is your justification for a quint being so great?

Limited drivers? Who's going to operate the aerial ladder? Who's going to operate the pump? Is it going to operate as an engine (if so, why not buy an engine) is it going to operate as a ladder (if so buy a ladder), is it going to be able to carry ALL of the proper equipment to complete both ladder and engine company operations?

[jfire3134]

What ever happened to QUALITY. remember? Quality of service. you get what you pay for. So if a department's cutting corners it is setting itself up for downfall later on. Bad PR is definitely something you dont need. If your civilians are backing you then you wont be able to afford to cut corners in the first place

[FIREPIGRFD]

HERE IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT IDEA ALSO ABOUT WHY A QUINT SYSTEM HAS ITS DRAWBACKS. IF BEING USED TO REPLACE AN ENGINE AND A TRUCK COMPANY, ONE LITTLE PROBLEM, OR EVEN A MAJOR ONE, THAT CAUSES THE QUINT TO BE PUT OUT OF SERVICE, WILL IN EFFECT PUT A LADDER TRUCK AND AN ENGINE OUT OF SERVICE. IF A REPLACEMENT IS NEEDED SHORT OR LONG TERM DO YOU HAVE TO GET 2 PIECES TO REPLACE THE QUINT. YOU WILL NEED TO KNOW THIS AHEAD OF TIME. AND HAVE PLANS TO GET TWO IF NEEDED. EXTRA QUINTS ARE NOT LAYING AROUND LIKE RESERVE ENGINES OR TRUCKS ARE.

DA PIG

THANX ROB, HOPE YA DON'T EAT HAM THOUGH!

OINK OINK

CAPTDOUBLECHECK OVER AND OUT!

[allineedisu]

Originally posted by FIREPIGRFD
HERE IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT IDEA ALSO ABOUT WHY A QUINT SYSTEM HAS ITS DRAWBACKS. IF BEING USED TO REPLACE AN ENGINE AND A TRUCK COMPANY, ONE LITTLE PROBLEM, OR EVEN A MAJOR ONE, THAT CAUSES THE QUINT TO BE PUT OUT OF SERVICE, WILL IN EFFECT PUT A LADDER TRUCK AND AN ENGINE OUT OF SERVICE. IF A REPLACEMENT IS NEEDED SHORT OR LONG TERM DO YOU HAVE TO GET 2 PIECES TO REPLACE THE QUINT. YOU WILL NEED TO KNOW THIS AHEAD OF TIME. AND HAVE PLANS TO GET TWO IF NEEDED. EXTRA QUINTS ARE NOT LAYING AROUND LIKE RESERVE ENGINES OR TRUCKS ARE.

DA PIG

THANX ROB, HOPE YA DON'T EAT HAM THOUGH!

OINK OINK

CAPTDOUBLECHECK OVER AND OUT!




HUH????


Actually you really aren't making any sence in here. If you have a real problem with what you guys use, then you take it to your fire commission or chief, whichever it is and stop airing your hate for the members of your department in the forums. You came in here really knocking your department, which isn't heard of, and others members as well. You need to not air the dirty laundry in thses pages. Did you ever give it the littlest thought that somebody in your city govenment other than your fire department may, just may be looking at these posts and passing them to the fire chief???? But, again, your the type of person that really doesn't think about that or even care. I am sure, whatever you rank is, if you have a ranking, they must be proud of you and may even promote and give you a medal soon.


This really isn't the place for all that idle chatter.


Enough said about your hate for quints.

[FIREPIGRFD]

LOOK BOY,
SOMEBODY ASKED SOME QUESTIONS, MYSELF AND A FEW OTHERS HAVE TRIED TO

ANSWER THEM. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT OR CAN'T HANDLE IT, OR DON'T AGREE

POST THAT.

AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T KNOCK MY DEPARTMENT? IF YOU LOOK CLOSE

THERE AT LEAST 2 OTHER FROM MY DEPARTMENT ON THIS THREAD ALONE THAT

FEEL THE SAME WAY AS I DO. THIS IS AMERICA, DUMMY.

THIS IS YOUR POST HERE WOOSIE.

HUH????


Actually you really aren't making any sence in here. If you have a real problem with what you guys use, then you take it to your fire commission or chief, whichever it is and stop airing your hate for the members of your department in the forums. You came in here really knocking your department, which isn't heard of, and others members as well. You need to not air the dirty laundry in thses pages. Did you ever give it the littlest thought that somebody in your city govenment other than your fire department may, just may be looking at these posts and passing them to the fire chief???? But, again, your the type of person that really doesn't think about that or even care. I am sure, whatever you rank is, if you have a ranking, they must be proud of you and may even promote and give you a medal soon.

AT THE BEGINING IT SHOULD BE "SENSE" NOT SENCE.

SOMEONE WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE QUINT CONCEPT AND SOME OF US ARE TELLING IT LIKE IT IS.DO YOU THINK I CARE WHO IN MY CITY GOVERNMENT IS READING THIS? YES I HOPE THEY ARE.HERE IS THE FIRE DEPARTMENT E-MAIL ADDRESS.

fire@ci.richmond.va.us

http://www.ci.richmond.va.us/index.asp

YOU DO IT. LET THEM KNOW. THE CHIEFS NAME IS ON OUR WEB SITE.

MAYBE YOU COULD TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT THESE PAGES ARE FOR, IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT MY RIGHT? AND AS FOR NOT KNOCKING MY DEPARTMENT, YOU SAY IT IS NOT HEARD OF. WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM? I AM A FIREFIGHTER NOT A SLAVE TO A POLITICAL ORGANIZATION, NOR AM I ANYBODIES WHIPPING BOY. WHEN MYSELF, A BROTHER FIREFIGHTER OR A CIVILIAN GETS KILLED BECAUSE OF OUR QUINT SYSTEM, SHOULD WE KEEP OUR MOUTHS SHUT THEN, AND NOT SAY "I TOLD YOU SO". OR IF WE ONLY HAD TOLD SOMEONE BEFORE THIS, MAYBE A LIFE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

IF YOU AREN'T GOING TO MAKE ANY **"SENCE"** IN WHAT YOU SAY, THEN BUZZ OFF. YOU GOTTA BE A VOLLIE!

IF YOU DON'T LIKE ME SAY SO.

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH MY POST, THEN SHOW AN OPPOSING VIEW.

DON'T TELL ME MY RIGHTS.

fire@ci.richmond.va.us AGAIN HERE IT IS.

DON'T FUG WITH DA PIG

OINK OINK

CAPTDOUBLECHECK OVER AND OVER AND OUT!

[Weruj1]

Pig............if you could please turn off your caps when posting when you post in caps it is interreted as shouting. I am sorry you all do not like the TQC, but you all need to settle down some and figure out how to get these issues resolved. GOOD LUCK.

[Quint1Medic]

Attention, troll-y-acting-pig person...
unless I'm remembering wrong, if someone uses that "fire@ci.richmond.va.us" address, EVERY SINGLE ENTITY listed under "Fire" in the city webmail system will get a copy. That includes all the companies, all the groups, and all the individuals with email accounts.
Y'all keep that in mind if you want to tattle.

[FIREPIGRFD]

WERJU1,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE LESSON IN HOME COMPUTING 101. I KNOW VERY WELL WHAT IT MEANS AND WILL NOT CHANGE IT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

DA PIG

****************************** ******************************
HEY ITS OK,I HAD SUBWAY FOR LUNCH, AND I HAVE STAYED AT A HOLIDAY INN

THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER,
PLEASE READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY, IF YOU NEED HELP UNDERSTANDING IT, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.I WILL DRAW A PICTURE FOR YOU IF YOU CAN’T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH I HAVE POSTED.IF YOU NEED IT DONE WITH CRAYON FEEL FREE TO LET ME KNOW. I DO NOT SPEAK FOR ANY COMPANY, PERSON, ORGANIZATION, POLITICAL PARTY, YOUR MOM OR DAD, YOUR WIFE OR MY KID, THE FAMILY DOG, ANY COUNTRY, OR SMALL ISLAND IN THE JAMES RIVER. I DO NOT VOICE ANY OPINIONS OTHER THAN MY OWN. ANY AND ALL POSTINGS OF ANY SITUATION WITH OUT PEOPLE OR NAMES OF ORGANIZATIONS SPECIFICLY NAMED BY NAME ARE PURELY HYPOTHETICAL, ANY SIMULARITIES ARE PURELY ACCIDENTAL AND NON- INTENTIONAL. SO IN OTHER WORDS WHEN I SAY SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU WANT TO CRY LIKE A LITTLE BABY, SUCK IT UP AND REALIZE THAT NOT EVERYONE LIKES YOU OR THE WAY YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT DOES THINGS.

WARNING: THE PIG DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS.

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT THE PIG HAS TO SAY GO **** YOURSELF.

[Weruj1]

A true ASSest to the RFD I am sure ................sheesh

[dchomen]

Gentleman some decorum please ! Firepigrfd you are correct, the quint concept has been seen as a cost reduction scheme for city managers and fire chiefs. However in our department we fought this with facts not emotions. We currently have two quints, 1 truck and 16 engine companies. The problem is the two "truck companies" now operate from quints with only three firefighters! We too had and engine and truck with a total manning of seven! This was reduced intially to four and then now three firefighters! It was all about the cost savings in labor cost. The public and our members are not served well by this compromise of safety.
Accidents? Yes,the quints have been in 8 accidents so far in two years of service. This is more than the truck companies had in 20 years I have been around. The problem for our department is that with the reduction of manpower in those companies, they now have the unenviable task of become second in on all of their first in fire responses! Why? Because they are three handed. The FF takes the plug, we drive past and operate their handlines, then they get to setup a fan and stand by as the RIT Team! Good for us,bad for the public. With their small 250 gallon tank most of the officers are leary of making a fast offensive attack with only tank water and for good reason.(do the math) To those who thnk it is not about money need to reevaluate their position and look at the experience of many departments across the USA.

Background in case you might think i'm blowing smoke. 21 years union professional firefighter, currently on haz mat rescue 9.

Department Profile

18 stations
377 Firefighters
76 General Fund Firefighters/Prevention
16 Engine Companies ( 3 Handed !)
2 Quints ( 3 Handed !)
1 Truck ( 3 Handed)
1 Heavy Rescue Company (7 Rescue Specialists 24/7)
1 Haz Mat Team (9 Techs 24/7)
9 Paramedic Rescue (FF/PM's)

Salt Lake County Fire (Now The Unified Fire Authroity)
Salt Lake County Utah

Stay Safe and Kepp Low,jack

[FIREPIGRFD]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST DCHOMEN,

I agree with the accident rate soaring, ours went out of sight. I am begining to think that the only people that have issues with quints or some type of a quint system are the ones that are actually using them. And that is, quints are used only for the purpose of eliminating paid positions. But everyone wants to say that it is us and not the system. They are not riding the streets day in and day out in them.
Oh how we fought this, and still are. But for every fire position eliminated another police position comes up. Also Virginia is a right to work state, collective bargaining is illegal, period. The city doesn't have to listen or talk to us, if they don't want to.


Thats enough from me for now.