Michigan radio system

[pete892]

Are there any Michigan departments that have switched to the Michigan 800 system operated by the state police? I don't mean just one or two radios but a complete switch.

Does the system work for fire departments?

Law enforcement in Van Buren county is 100% changed over. They seem to be happy with mobiles but portables sometimes don't work in buildings.

Stay safe,

Pete

[ffexpCP]

If I can remember all of the technical mumbo, I don’t think the system works for fire departments because trunking is not compatible with tone paging. This is why my city still hasn’t made the switch yet. We currently have high band fire and po po, but low band for DPW. We just don’t want to add 800 to all that.

[WTFD10]

Monroe County is making the complete switch this summer. Should be interesting.

I'm not a big fan of digital radios because of all the horror stories from DC & NY among other places.

CP, you're correct about the paging. Monroe County will continue to use their VHF frequency for paging only. All other communications will be on the 800 system.

[WTFD10]

Oh yeah and Pete, if they ever make the switch in your area, be prepared to shell out 500 bucks or so to sit in your chair and listen :(

There are only 3 scanners currently available that will follow a digital 9600 baud trunked system like MPSCS and they're all around that price.

[lmrchief2]

Well Pete as you already know we are in the process of changing over to the MPSC system. I will let you know how it goes.

It is pretty typical over here right now we are half way into the project and everybody is starting to ask many questions and rebel against it.

It's almost as if everybody was surprised by it. The rolled the plan out in October I believe and all has been quite. Things have been happening and getting done. Now all of a sudden the last 2-3 weeks everybody is up in arms. Some legitimate complaints yes-they do need to do something with the paging system.

All in all I think this will work good for us it can't hurt with all the dead areas we already have. I think it will be a big learning curve for us however.

The radios have been ordered and the triaining on the new radios is supposed to start with in a couple of months we will see how it goes and I will keep you posted.

And yes it will be expensive to sit back and listen now.

[F52Westside]

We are not on the new MSP system, but for paging our VHF system is "patched" into the 800 mhz system. It seems to work well. The problems we have are with our dispatch consoles.

[lmrchief2]

We also are going to simulcast the paging system to the 800 also. The problem is that we have so many dead areas in our county that the pagers do not always trip. This really will not fix the problem because of the frequency differance.

[sgt120]

We have been using the 800 system in Livingston County for a little over a year; You are right about some of the problems with the system. All the departments in the county still have to be page out on VHF, however the message is simulcast over the 800 system. Our FD in particular has started requiring that all new builds over 10,000 sqft put in an antena system for the 800Mhz range. Our biggest challenge is for mutual aid in other counties that are not on the 800 system. In Livingston county all departments to include ALL PD units are dispatched from a central dispatch.

[lmrchief2]

SGT120 are you on the state system or on your own county 800 system.

[ffexpCP]

I chated with a guy from Radio Shack and he was 'hinting' to wait on buying the new trunking scanner now. (man I want one of those) He said the price should drop over the summer. There are also plans to come out with a desktop/car model.

[sgt120]

Imrchief2 we are on the state wide system, prior to going to this I was very skeptical about the system, I am now feeling better about the system since I have used it quite extensively. If you want more info e-mail me.

Thanks, SGT120

[pete892]

There is a scanner thread going in the firefighting forum. Does anyone know for sure on any scanner that will monitor the the Michigan State Police radio system. I understand it is digital trunked and encripted.

Stay Safe,

Pete

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by pete892
There is a scanner thread going in the firefighting forum. Does anyone know for sure on any scanner that will monitor the the Michigan State Police radio system. I understand it is digital trunked and encripted.

Stay Safe,

Pete

No scanner will be able to decode the encrypted talkgroups on the MPSCS. Not every talkgroup is encrypted though. The MPSCS is an APCO 25 system with a 9600 baud control channel. Right now there are only 3 scanners that will track this type of system (and they are all around $500.00):

The Radio Shack Pro-96, Uniden BC-296D (http://www.uniden.com/productpop/00_productpop.cfm?prd_code=BC2 96D) and Uniden BC-796D (http://www.uniden.com/productpop/00_productpop.cfm?prd_code=BC7 96D)

There are some other digital scanners available but they cannot track the 9600 bps control channel so they will not work on the Michigan system.

[ffexpCP]

I just picked up the RS Pro-96 yesterday. I can hear MSP, Oakland, Wayne, Livingston and other trunked systems. It's a real nice radio. I've been playing with it non-stop, I keep on finding new toys on it.

If you go to radioshack.com and click on the coupon section at the top you can print off a coupon good for $25 off through may 21.

[WTFD10]

Questions Raised About Emergency Radio Network

http://wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=1884136

WLNS 6 Lansing
5/20/04- It's a multi-million dollar state of the art system designed to connect every public safety agency in Michigan. Some say the statewide digital radio network is the best available, while others simply aren't convinced.

When it comes to first responders, communication is critical. Their radios become their lifeline, so picking what system to use could make all the difference. In fact, some say it could mean life or death. Completed in 2002, it's touted as the biggest and best system around- a 231 million dollar statewide public communications system.

Kurt Weiss, MI Info. Technology: "Our staff has their fingers on the pulse of the system 24 hours a day, seven days a week."

Monitored around the clock, the 800 mega hertz digital radio network helps link public safety agencies all across the state.

Kurt Weiss: "We want to partner with all the local agencies, this is a team effort when we're dealing with terrorism and homeland security, everybody needs to partner together."

So far, more than 450 public safety agencies have bought into the system, and Kurt Weiss from the Department of Information Technology says that number continues to grow.

Kurt Weiss: "We're currently working with some pretty large cities, Detroit is coming on to the system, we're working on negotiations with them, Genesee County, Monroe, Macomb."

But not everyone is looking to link up. In fact, Ingham County has decided to build its own 12 million dollar system after the Lansing Fire Department had problems with the state's system. The department is the first and only agency in the county using it.

Greg Martin, Lansing Fire Chief: "I guess it's wonderful that it can talk to the state police in Detroit, but for the most part, I don't want to, I want to talk to the Lansing engine company across town consistently, and that's more important to me."

More important, but not always possible. Lansing Fire Chief Greg Martin says the state's system didn't meet his expectations, didn't fit the department's needs. In fact, in the case of one emergency, Martin says the radios actually caused an emergency.

Greg Martin: "About 8 months ago, we had 2 firefighters hurt on the west side of Lansing, they sustained some burns, because they didn't receive the radio message, they went to a upper level of this house, when the message was don't."

Chief Martin says the problem is dead zones- places in the city where the digital radios simply don't work, and when it comes to buildings, Martin says the radios are basically useless. Instead of a bad signal, there's no signal at all. That's because the system is designed to work in cars.

Greg Martin: "You hear it on the air many times, they go, "engine 45, can you repeat, you just went digital," you stop sounding like Greg Martin and more like a robot, then it drops."

But just a county away, Livingston has taken a different approach to the same system.

Don Arbic, Livingston Co. 911: "Livingston County has been adding components, improving the system, improving public safety communications since the original transition in 1998."

The county started with nothing, none of its own infrastructure, basically piggy-backing off the state's system. Just a few short years later, the county's added a dispatch center, and built a million dollar tower south of Howell to help with coverage across the county.

Greg Martin: "Recently we converted our fire service in Livingston County and brought on supervisors from the road commission, medical examiners office, community health and our EMS department is also migrating its communication over as well."

But what about the lack of communication inside buildings? Arbic says Livingston County solved that problem by having an incident commander on the scene, stationed outside the building, armed with two radios.

Don Arbic: "We've set up our radios with what we call a direct channel, radio to radio, try to cover maybe a hundred yards top, and that works very well for us."

So during everyday operations or in the case of an emergency, we found the system which works the best really depends on who you ask. As for Ingham County's new system, it's slated for operation in early 2005. It's a 12 million dollar system, with a digital backbone and analog radios. It was recommended by the 911 advisory committee, passed by the Ingham County Board of Commissioners and funded by the 911 emergency services millage.

John Neilsen, Deputy Controller: "We've designed it so that it will fit our needs in the future with a number of channels and the type of infrastructure we have."

Victor Celentino, County Commissioner: "We're giving them the tools they need to do their job of protecting our citizens, so everyone wins in the end."

[lmrchief2]

All I can say Moe Is we will see what happens

[WTFD10]

Well, yesterday was the big day...LE & some fire switched over to MPSCS in Monroe County yesterday.

Any reports on how it's working yet?

I've heard that they are simulcasting the fire dispatch talkgroup on 154.430 but eventually that freq. will be used for tone outs only.

[taj421]

In lansing, it is well documented that this system has given us nothing but problems. We have no need to contact someone in the U.P. when you can't even get through to dispatch from the second floor of a house. Initially Motorola told us it was operator error, why not, after all it is a multi-million dollar system, the system can't fail, right? Anyway, the police never went onboard with the system because Motorola couldn't gaurantee not getting "bonked". We are switching.

stay safe

[ffexpCP]

Originally posted by WTFD10

Any reports on how it's working yet?

I've heard that they are simulcasting the fire dispatch talkgroup on 154.430 but eventually that freq. will be used for tone outs only.

New radio system going online - 12/13/2004

The 800 MHz radios will be phased in and the conversion should be complete in February, officials said.

MONROE, Mich. - A new local emergency radio system went active today, the first part of a phase-in that could convert the entire county over to the 800 MHz radio platform by the end of February.



Sgt. David Thompson of the Monroe County Sheriff's Office said this morning the system has joined the Michigan Public Safety Communication System - an assembly of 800 MHz radio systems located throughout Michigan.

The assimilation means Monroe County law enforcement will begin using the new signal today as radio installation crews replace the radio devices in squad cars with new 800 MHz-compatible units. That process will last until early next year, Sgt. Thompson said.

"Today they are going to begin switching out the mobile radios that are in the patrol cars, starting with the small police agencies," Sgt. Thompson said.

Also expected today is a report of coverage testing performed on the system in November. Sgt. Thompson said results of the testing are generally good, but there are some areas of the county that did not pass the testing. Many of those areas were located around Bedford Township.

"The system isn't going to be perfect, but once we get all of the kinks worked out, I'm confident that it will be a huge advantage to the county," said Sgt. Frank Atkinson of the Monroe County Sheriff's Office Traffic Services Division.

Throughout the entire county, however, the system exceeded the 95-percent in-building coverage requirement, he said, The state requires a radio signal strong enough for transmissions to penetrate the buildings of a particular construction grade. In some instances, Sgt. Thompson said the system might have failed the test in particular areas of the county because buildings of a heavier construction type were selected for testing purposes.

"There were some grids down in the Bedford area that failed," he said. "We went into some of the buildings that were probably (heavier construction type) and tested and it didn't work," he explained.

"We were only allowed to test one spot within a grid, so we could only select one building, so I'm putting together a list of the places that we went into and tested in."

He will compare that list to a map of grid cells where coverage testing revealed deficiencies.

Once Sgt. Thompson receives the final testing report today, he said a new wave of tests would be scheduled for the area to better determine the radio system's performance there.

He likened the new 800 MHz signal to a cellular phone signal that may work inside some buildings, but not all buildings.

Initial testing data shows the system achieved a 97-percent rate of success. Among 1,244 5/8 mile grid squares tested throughout the entire county, 1,211 passed coverage testing and 33 failed - a rate that exceeds the state mandate of 95-percent in-building coverage.

Until the transition of all county radio terminals to the 800 MHz system is complete, the current emergency radio system will be used simultaneously with the new system.

"Central Dispatch is going to patch the main (800 MHz channels) of the new system with the channels that we use in the existing system, so when an officer calls Central Dispatch, it doesn't matter what system they are using to call," Sgt. Thompson said.

"Central Dispatch will be able to hear you and the officers, it doesn't matter what system they're on, they'll be able to her the transmission."

Channels that will be patched over on both systems will include the City of Monroe's main emergency channel, the Law Enforcement Information Network (LEIN) channel, the county's main fire frequency channel and the outgoing Central Dispatch channel, he said.

Sgt. Thompson said installation of the new 800 MHz terminals in emergency response vehicles could be completed by the end of February.



I'll be down in Bedford for the winter explorer event. I'll have to take a listen on the ol scanner. Guess I have some programing to do...

[ffexpCP]

Well, I forgot the scanner on the trip. DOH! Anyway, I can pickup the Monroe Fire Talkgroups on the Northville tower. Good signal, but the audio quality is crap. I can tell it is patched from the analog non-trunking system (because I can hear the tones). I can hear dispatch and mobile units, but sometimes it is really difficult to understand as there is lots of static (once again, obviously from the old system).

We’ll have to see if it gets any better.

[pete892]

Any updates from Monroe county on how the state 800 system is working for fire?

Stay safe,

Pete

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by pete892
Any updates from Monroe county on how the state 800 system is working for fire?

Stay safe,

Pete

They are still working on getting the mobiles installed in all the apparatus so they have not made the switch yet. It's supposed to happen by the end of February. They have their main fire talkgroup two-way patched to their VHF freq. for the time being but I heard the other day that this is temporary and will be one-way only (just the Dispatcher will be heard on VHF)in the beginning of March.

There are also some problems with the tower in Whiteford Twp., it has been up and down, so the radios are not working real well in the south part of the county.

Check out the Michigan forum on www.radioreference.com , there's a lot of information there.

[Lamah989]

What about alpha pagers? I think in Saginaw county they are 800mhz but use Alpha pagers as well as rebroadcast for voice pagers. Personally I like hearing all the traffic on my pager during a run, we respond to scene in our POV and would rather listen then read. I don't think Bay County would be going to 800 any time soon, but I remember in the past hearing our current system won't work much longer.

Won't there be an option for trunking voice pagers in the future?

[Lesliefire1]

Pete,

Look closely at the WLNS report about Lansing.
Ingham Co. is going county wide with a new system.
They are switching to the 450 or 460 freq.
Lansing is getting rid of the 800.

With the new system they can patch into all of the systems and it is also trunked. Scanners Good luck. Paging we will see.

The systems is supposed to be up and running sometime in the future. It started out in Sept of last year now we are looking at ??
May or later. It's nice to have something but this is bad.
I would follow this closely and ask more about it later. I am sure that WLNS (6) or WILX (10) will follow thais and have some coverage on it. I do understand that New York is looking at the same systems and waiting to see how it works in Michigan.

[ffexpCP]

I’ve been working on my scanner programming when I noticed each station in the county has a talkgroup for fireground. Someone PLEASE tell me these digital radios are NOT being used for fireground use. If they’re not (which I hope is the case) what freq. is used for fireground? Is the pager freq. the only analog channel used now?

[ffexpCP]

New radio system is full of bugs

$221 million state project was supposed to link police

By Mike Martindale / The Detroit News


Charles V. Tines / The Detroit News

A Michigan State Police radio tower stands at 32 Mile and Dequindre.


Comment on this story
Send this story to a friend
Get Home Delivery


A new statewide digital radio system that replaced aging World War II technology was intended to help state police and other public safety agencies communicate seamlessly across Michigan.

But a decade after it was first envisioned, the 181-tower, $221 million radio system has failed to deliver on that ambitious promise. And in some cases it just doesn't work.

"It's like they built a racehorse and are still trying to get it to walk," said Mark A. Porter, attorney for the State Police Troopers Association.

A situation could easily escalate into a tragedy if police and other emergency workers can't communicate with each other, said Porter and others.

Even the most staunch defenders of the Michigan Public Safety Communications System, completed last September, admit it's not without wrinkles.

"No radio system will provide you with 100 percent coverage 100 percent of the time," said State Police Captain Tom Miller, who supervised the system for four years. "If you have something that does, it's financially impractical."

Among reported problems:

* Dead zones, where radio transmissions are impossible, are still common.

* Portable radios that are part of the system are useless in buildings.

* The system still is unable to deliver computer data, as once promised.

According to a Feb. 19 document obtained by The News, the entire radio system in southeast Michigan crashed on Feb. 10 and full signal was not restored for nearly eight hours. For 400 troopers serving several posts from the Ohio border to Oakland County, that meant switching over to the backup radio system supplied by their respective municipal police agencies.

But several dozen troopers without backup radios, including Wayne and Oakland freeway patrols, were "left without any communication, posing a clear and present danger to all personnel," according to the grievance filed with State Police human resources division by the 2nd District Association.

"No contingency or backup plan was available to any personnel," according to the grievance, which recommended "all troopers be provided with independent radios capable of maintaining contact with law enforcement dispatch centers apart from the MSP 800-megahertz system ..."

"They were left hanging," Porter said. "They had no choice but to return to their posts until it came back up. They had no way to get information and no way to give it back.

"It also happened up in the Upper Peninsula three months ago."

The system is so unreliable some police, including state troopers, carry Nextel cell telephones in cars for backup. On Feb. 10, that was the only form of communication available to many troopers.

But state officials contend the old system was much worse and needed to be replaced. It was so outdated it included towers that didn't meet construction codes and couldn't even be climbed by technicians, Miller said.

"We would have loved to have had a system with in-building coverage everywhere, but it would have easily cost two or three times more," Miller said. "We would probably still be planning it today."

In a related development, a proposed bill sponsored by State Rep. John Pappageorge, R-Troy, which would permit local units of government to hang radio transmitters on existing state police towers, moved out of committee Tuesday and will go to the full House for possible vote later this week. State police have resisted such efforts, concerned it would interfere with their radio transmissions. Local governments argue they should be able to use any facilities supported with tax dollars at their respective costs providing they don't disrupt signals. A similar bill, introduced by State Senator Mike Bishop, R-Rochester, may be discussed this week or next in the state senate.

The system is optional for local police and fire agencies. But as more counties upgrade dispatch and 911 emergency response, many smaller departments, especially outstate, have found it necessary to sign on rather than fund their own dispatch centers.

There is a basic, one-time fee of $25 per radio to departments and an annual $200 per radio, per year, Miller said. But additional requirements can run into the millions. A 500-foot tower, which some communities have built for better reception, costs about $1.5 million, he said.

Livingston County erected a tower; and a Genesee County Consortium of 31 agencies is looking at an $11 million investment that includes four new towers.

Washtenaw County developed its own police-fire radio network because the state system was not unsuited for their needs and unreliable inside buildings.

Miller said some initial problems have been corrected, including unreasonable expectations that technology would bring "flawless coverage everywhere."

"The beauty in our system is if a local agency wants to come on they get a good picture of what they're buying before they spend one dollar," Miller said. "They know if they have to add or if what they're are getting will be enough. We believe we're providing a standard level of coverage."

Fowlerville Police Chief Gary Krause had no choice. His whole county, including the 911 system, joined the state system.

"The system might be great for the state, but for some of us it's been trouble," Krause said. "If you don't sign on, you have no connection with dispatch."

Krause found out "that once you got out of your car, you weren't 100 percent sure if you would get a signal on portables."

A chief concern among law enforcement groups is the system was designed only for the radios mounted in cars, and not the portable radios upon which many fire and police agencies rely, especially in emergencies. Portable radios are clipped to belts with a small microphone that extends to the uniform's shoulder for hands-free use.

Many agencies find themselves tied to a system they can't depend on to communicate with their own officers.

One Fowlerville officer had problems with his portable radio outside one of the city's buildings while struggling with a suspect. He was unable to radio for backup.

"He was rolling around on the ground with a suspect," Krause said. "Fortunately a couple citizens came along or who knows what would have happened?"

"To be fair, portable service was never guaranteed," he said. "But you're inside a building and need help, what do you do?"

Krause said fear of getting "bonked" -- the resulting radio sound indicating no signal is available -- has his department relying on an old radio system for major community events.

"Our old radio system is crisper, more reliable and we can even connect with the DPW or school buses," Krause said. "We can't call up to northern Michigan like with the new one but what do we need that for anyway?"

Metro Detroit agencies have shown little interest in the state system, outside of having a few radios in the event of an emergency. But others have faith in it. Miller notes there are now 9,465 users from 268 agencies across the state -- about 14 percent of 1,850 potential user groups statewide.

The majority -- 7,053 mobile and portable radios -- are used by state agencies, chief among them the state police (4,885). But 59 radios are in use by federal groups, including the FBI (44 radios) and local usage ranges from some police and fire departments using only one radio to the Lansing Fire Department which has 209 radios.

The Motorola-built system was initially funded at $187 million, but another $34 million in upgrades were added, Miller said.

"The contract specifications called for state-wide coverage of 97 percent mobile radio, but we believe we're actually receiving 99 percent," said Miller, adding user satisfaction is high.

Miller noted how Shelby Township, the only Macomb County community to join up, didn't add anything. Shelby Township is near a 500-foot radio tower built by the state, and agencies located near such towers don't report any problems.

Miller said the state system is still being worked on. Computer-delivered data would be possible with about another $11 million in upgrades.

He said the system has some shortcomings, especially in the post 9-11 era.

Poor radio communication was partly blamed for the large number of deaths of emergency workers at the World Trade Center tragedy in New York City.

You can reach Mike Martindale at (248) 647-7226 or mmartindale@detnews.com.

[ffexpCP]

Kalamazoo, MI - Cell-phone interference is wreaking havoc with Kalamazoo's new police radios and has prompted the city to spend nearly a half-million dollars on tower upgrades.

Just four months after the Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety flipped the switch on a new, $1.8 million radio system, the City Commission on Monday reluctantly approved spending an additional $458,777 on tower equipment.

Portable radios that officers carry outside their cars are failing at alarming rates to get their signals through, with officers encountering numerous "dead spots," particularly inside buildings, Public Safety Chief Dan Weston told commissioners.

"On several occasions, officers have been in foot pursuit, and no one has been able to hear their radio traffic," the chief said in a memo. "At other times, officers have attempted to call out for help while wrestling with a dangerous offender, and we have not heard their attempts to communicate with our radio system."

The city in November activated the new, 800-megahertz digital radio system and signed onto the Michigan Public Safety Communications System, a network of Michigan State Police towers that allows different public-safety agencies to communicate with one another.

The portable Motorola radios were tested at more than 300 sites in Kalamazoo in December 2002 and produced what Weston said was "very acceptable" coverage.

But big problems became evident immediately after the new radios went into use last November. State and Motorola engineers attribute the difficulties to the rapid proliferation of cell-phone towers and usage, Weston said. Cell-phone signals, also on the 800 MHz band, sometimes drown out signals from the 3-watt, portable radios that officers use, he said.

The fix involves adding a signal repeater and other equipment to an existing KDPS tower at station No. 6 at Howard Street and Oakland Drive, as well as upgrading state towers near Plainwell and Vicksburg that serve Kalamazoo's radio system.

"Instead of us being overwhelmed by the cell phones, it is going to allow us to overwhelm the cell phones," Weston told commissioners.

The tower work is expected to take about three months to complete.

Weston said that once the towers are upgraded, Motorola will guarantee radio coverage from inside buildings through 95 percent of the city. "There is not 100 percent coverage with any radio system ... there will still be some dead spots, (but) it is going to greatly enhance our ability to communicate," he said.

The project will cost $555,744, with the local share reduced by state contributions of $96,967 in equipment and labor. Local funding will come primarily from federal grants.

City commissioners expressed frustration with the added expense but unanimously approved the contract-change order.

"We have to do this. We can't leave our people vulnerable," Commissioner Don Cooney said.

Other communities have had similar problems with 800 MHz radios. Ionia and Monroe are among other Michigan cities that have encountered serious difficulties with interference since going on the state radio system, Weston said.

The federal government is working on a plan to move cell-phone frequencies farther away from frequencies used by police, fire and other public-safety agencies, Weston said.

City Manager Pat DiGiovanni cautioned, though, that the tower upgrades aren't necessarily a last fix for radio interference. "We may need another tower someday," he said. "We can expect more and more interference within the airwaves."

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by ffexpCP
I’ve been working on my scanner programming when I noticed each station in the county has a talkgroup for fireground. Someone PLEASE tell me these digital radios are NOT being used for fireground use. If they’re not (which I hope is the case) what freq. is used for fireground? Is the pager freq. the only analog channel used now?

The department closest to me plans on using one of the two programmed ITAC analog channels for Operations.

Command will be on one of the "Emergency Scene" talkgroups since each of the so-called Fireground talkgroups are only accessible to that particular department.

[FB1138]

We did the switch to 800, but must keep old radios because of mutual aid requirements. Scanner must have digital to hear traffic. A good resource for talkgroups and frequency numbers is www.radioreference.com

It is free to sign up and well worth it.

[ffexpCP]

communicate with one another.

Granholm recently obtained approval from the Michigan Legislature to provide $13 million in supplemental appropriations to finance maintenance of state police radio towers for the system, which critics say is inefficient and outdated.

In April 2004, the state drew $12 million from the Commercial Radio Suppliers fund, a special 911 surcharge fund to aid technology enhancements for all mobile phone users.

Such withdrawals during belt-tightening times anger Robert J. Daddow, deputy chief executive in Oakland County, which is building its own $42 million radio system and won't rely on the statewide one.

"There have been problems with the state system since they started, and it doesn't seem like anything is changing -- except for taking more money to do who knows what," Daddow said. "They're marching forward on a system which is obsolete. It's troubling."

In June 1995, Michigan lawmakers, faced with a crumbling, outdated radio system, approved funding. Federal, state and local public safety agencies were invited to sign onto the system for a one-time activation fee of $25 per radio and a $200 per-radio annual fee.

There are now about 16,000 radios in use, half by state agencies. But several public safety agencies have shunned the system because it does not support handheld radios, commonly used both outside and inside buildings.

The state radio system, initiated by the Michigan State Police a decade ago and run for the past two years by the state Department of Information Technology, is designed as a mobile car radio system.

Some users, such as Kalamazoo police, have said cell phone interference causes major reception problems. It will cost more than $500,000 to build a tower to overpower current interference, said Kalamazoo Police Chief Dan Weston.

"The main problem is all these cell phone companies are putting up antennas as fast as they can," Weston said. "We're in a valley in Kalamazoo, and we need another tower, probably on one of our fire stations, for better reception."

Robert Tarrant, director for the state radio system, insists it is a good system. He said the recently obtained $13 million will fund upgrades to accommodate new users in southeast Michigan.

"It was built for mobile, and if you are relying on handheld radios and inside buildings, you will have to have some additional support, like adding towers," Tarrant said. "But it's a wonderful success story of how the state and local agencies can work together."

You can reach Mike Martindale at (248) 647-7226 or mmartindale@detnews.com.

[ffexpCP]

The system was down in the UP today. Great news with all of the wildfires.

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by ffexpCP
Robert Tarrant, director for the state radio system, insists it is a good system. He said the recently obtained $13 million will fund upgrades to accommodate new users in southeast Michigan.

I hope one of the upgrades is for a new tower in the southern part of Monroe County. The system is not working very well at all there.

I have a feeling most of it will be going to the new Detroit simulcast system though...

[ffexpCP]

I think I heard the tower site down there (Dundee?) has been quite problematic …or more so than other sites. :rolleyes: Heck, back home I can SEE the tower at my house and sometimes not hear a thing. :eek:

[pete892]

I didn't want this thread to get off the first page.

I am on the list to get an 800 Mhz portable radio next month thru homeland security grant. I'll let you know how it works.

Question: Any updates on Monroe county?

Stay safe,

Pete

[tzak0888]

Allegan County made the switch a cuple months ago. At first there were alot of bugs that needed to be worked out. The fire side is toned on UHF, but are radios are on the new 800 system.

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by pete892
Question: Any updates on Monroe county?


The system is working reasonably well in the middle and north portions of the county. Portables are basically useless in the south part of the county. The department closest to me has attempted to use the analog tac channels at incidents but even those have issues. They have decided that interior crews will carry the old VHF radios when operating interior at structure fires.

[monroemedic]

I'll tell ya, I use the 800 system every day I work. So far, there has been only 1 instance as to where I could not get out. Our dept. was one where it was assumed we would have some of the worst reception, due to the building make-up. So far things have worked well for us. Before, when we were using the old VHF system, we could not hear our portables 3 blocks from the station. Bur PLEASE keep in mind. this is a completely new system for Monroe County. There are sure to be bugs to be worked out. WHen we were training on the new system, we had "older" members who did not attend, so now, they are the 1st to complain about the system, bot knowing all of the ins & outs of how it works. So remember, giveit time to work everythng out. It is the same as an ambulance or fire truck. IF IT IS MANMADE, SOMETHING CAN & WILL BREAK, OR CAUSE PROBLEMS.

[ffexpCP]

Radio performance improved - 07/15/2005
The emergency communication system's performance has improved since Thursday, when technicians replaced an amplifier on the E. Dunbar Rd. tower.

arogers@monroenews.com

By ANDY ROGERS



The county's new digital 800 MHz emergency radio system is back to full power after Motorola technicians discovered and repaired damaged equipment on the system's E. Dunbar Rd. tower, county officials said this morning.




"Hopefully, it's fixed and the system will perform flawlessly like it should," Monroe County Board of Commissioners Chairman Jerry Oley said.




The damaged tower top amplifier was to blame for the $9 million system's recent performance problems, Motorola engineers told the county. The equipment is designed to sound an alarm when it fails, but the alarm was not triggered. A physical inspection of the amplifier revealed no apparent signs of damage, but testing proved that it was not working properly.




The radio system's performance improved dramatically once the amplifier was replaced Thursday, Mr. Oley said this morning. Signals were especially strong in downtown Monroe where the system's performance has drawn criticism from public safety officials, including Monroe police Chief John Michrina. Portable police radios taken inside downtown buildings could receive communications from Monroe County Central Dispatch, but did not have a strong enough signal to send signals, creating a major safety concern, Chief Michrina told the county board Tuesday.




That problem, however, appears to have been fixed, according to Mr. Oley, who said the county plans to work with Chief Michrina to organize a test of the repaired system to validate preliminary tests conducted Thursday night.


"They went downtown in the city last night and went into some buildings and walked along the streets, went into some businesses and even went into a basement, and everything tested great," Mr. Oley said.




"The checks they performed last night, they actually took their portable radios and transmitted back to Central Dispatch and all of the communications were loud and clear."




The fix also appears to have improved radio communication from inside the Monroe County Courthouse, where officials were considering purchasing extra equipment to boost performance. Similar equipment, called a bi-directional amplifier, already has been installed at the Monroe County jail.




The Dunbar Rd. tower where the malfunctioning amplifier was found is one of four towers that makeup the 800 MHz system. It is the closest tower to the City of Monroe.




Coverage problems with the new system also have emerged in areas of southern Monroe County, including Erie and Bedford townships. Monroe County Sheriff's Office Lt. David Thompson was traveling to Erie this morning to see if the Dunbar Rd. tower repair improved the radio system's performance there, too.




"They think it's going to be an improvement in the Luna Pier area, too, because of the way that tower is" Mr. Oley said. "Who's to say if it was lightning hit or if it was a mechanical failure or just an equipment failure. It could be any one of those three things."

Copyright © 2005 Monroe Publishing Company. All Rights Reserved
Last updated 07/15/05 - 01:24:41 pm EDT

[ffexpCP]

Lightning damages dispatch system
Police, fire stations use portable radios instead
Sunday, July 17, 2005
BY DAVE GERSHMAN
News Staff Reporter
A lightning strike knocked out the microwave communications system used by police dispatchers across Washtenaw County on Saturday, forcing them to use less-reliable portable radios to talk with officers on patrol.

The strong thunderstorms also dumped heavy rains in some places. A weather station in Ann Arbor recorded 2.4 inches of rain and two streets in Milan closed for almost an hour because of flooding in the afternoon.

A DTE Energy spokesman said sporadic electrical outages were reported in Washtenaw and Livingston counties but all power was expected to be restored by today.

Advertisement






On Saturday night, officials were still unsure about the extent of the damage to the microwave communications system, which is also used by some fire department dispatchers. The damage was caused by a lightning bolt that struck the Ann Arbor police station at about 9:30 a.m. Emergency 911 service was not affected.

The station houses key pieces of microwave equipment that effectively boosts the signals of portable radios used by emergency personnel and allows dispatchers in police stations across the county to monitor emergency transmissions in multiple communities.

"There are areas of the city tonight where I'm confident cops can't talk to dispatchers,'' Ann Arbor Police Chief Dan Oates said Saturday evening.

Because of the damage, the signals of the portable radios are limited, so there are dead zones - such as inside thickly-walled buildings - where police officers cannot reach their dispatch centers using their radios.

Police were also hampered in calling for assistance from other communities. The microwave system lets a dispatcher in one community instantly talk with a dispatcher in another community. With the system damaged, the dispatcher had to pick up a phone, which is slower.

"That's precious seconds,'' said Saline Police Chief Paul Bunten. "If an officer is in a very serious situation that could mean an awful lot.''

Although police departments used to rely on the portable radios, Bunten said, "That's 25-year-old technology and it's certainly not something the public deserves.''

When Ypsilanti Police pursued a suspect in the daytime robbery of a video store on Saturday, the Washtenaw Sheriff's Department learned of the unfolding chase by phone. The suspect was arrested and the Sheriff's Department did send deputies to help Ypsilanti Police.

"Our ability to provide assistance to other agencies in a timely fashion is severely hampered,'' said Sheriff's Commander David Egeler, adding: "Our dispatch center was talking with theirs by phone without having that instant ability.''

Until the microwave system is fixed, police cannot record the radio transmissions between officers, firefighters, ambulance workers and dispatch centers. Those recordings are occasionally used in court.

"It sort of cuts the police officers off at the knees,'' said Amber Van Amburg, business manager for 800 MHz Consortium, a publicly funded entity that provides communications for the county.

Van Amburg said no damage estimate was available Saturday evening.

Oates said the lightning strike exposed the limitations of an antiquated system. Some of the equipment, he said, is outdated and irreplaceable.

Fire and police chiefs in the county are backing a proposed 0.25-mill property tax that goes before voters on the November ballot to pay for a new emergency radio system.

Oates said the existing system has gone down temporarily 10 times since last August. A new system would be more capable, Oates said, providing a single communications system for the county and allowing it to join with a network of 60 other counties in Michigan.

"If one particular tower were to get struck, and we're members of the new coordinated statewide system, the impact on the county would be significantly less,'' he said.

Reporter Dave Gershman can be reached at (734) 994-6818 or dgershman@annarbornews.com.







© 2005 Ann Arbor News. Used with permission

[TriTownship600]

800 radios are currently on order for command staff here too. It will be patched to our VHF. I have never heard much good about 800 and the fire service. The sad news is that all those bells and whistles on the 800 band are available in digital VHF. And you still get the "punch" of the VHF when you’re in the basement.

I’ve been told NFPA will soon pass a guideline that "No trunked radio systems should be used inside hot zones."

Somebody’s gonna have some serious explaining to do on why the new million dollar super system can’t page the departments, or be used on the fire ground.

OMG!! I’m agreeing with NFPA! :eek: :eek:

[WTFD10]

Detroit switched over to the MPSCS yesterday. I can't hear it very well down south here but their old VHF dispatch channel came in loud and clear most of the time.

Just wondered if anybody from Detroit Fire or EMS has any comments on the 800 system yet.

[TriTownship600]

I got my new 800 from dispatch yesterday. Got bonked twice at a roll-over this morning but was able to get through most of the time. Going to give it my best shot.

[ffexpCP]

If anyone wants to listen...

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~n8chb/

[pete892]

It's been about three months since Detroit Fire switched to the new system.

Anyone have updates on how its working in Detroit?

Stay safe,

Pete

[firemanjoe35]

I live in Monroe Mi and as you might know we have switched over to the 800 sys. it does work as far as I am concerned. the biggest prob. is it can not page our depts out so we have to maintain our old paging syst. there are some building that have serious trubl getting out. but it is a new syst and will take time to get all bugs worked out. The loder guys dont like change and this is the biggest change that they have ever had to deal with as a county. But I believe it is for the best.

[monroemedic]

Amen Brother. I am one of the OLDER guys, but I still agree to the change. I can actually talk to the other guys on my dept. I do think this is the best thing to happen to Monroe County firefighting since I do not know when.
If the dissenters do not like the system, I suggest it is time to retire and get out, or get with the 21st century. Do not screw with my safety becuase you are too hard headed to change.

[skcfa1523]

Our dept. just wrote a grant to switch completely to the 800mhz system. We too will be keeping out 154.430 pagers for tone outs and our radio service is telling us that our dispatch center will be able to patch whatever channel we want. All we have to do is provide them with a copy of our current frequency list and they will have the ability to link up for us, in cluding to neighboring counties, i.e. Vanburen, St. Joe, Calhoun, and Cass Counties. Our LE is currently on the system and they love it. Hopefully we will too.

[rtrudeau]

If I can remember all of the technical mumbo, I don’t think the system works for fire departments because trunking is not compatible with tone paging. This is why my city still hasn’t made the switch yet. We currently have high band fire and po po, but low band for DPW. We just don’t want to add 800 to all that.

The 800 system works great with fire departments in livingston county. Central dispatch can simulcast on VHF for the tone pages and over 800. When central talks on main fire it is broadcast on VHF and 800, when anyone else talks it is only on the type of frequency for their radio type. ie: a FF talks on a VHF radio, only heard on VHF, on 800 only heard on 800.

800 works nicely because it has multiple talkgroups which you can designate for specific emergency scenes. Also, we can be patched to a VHF frequency for example when we need to talk to Survival Flight or Med Flight.

[TriTownship600]

The fire service in our county has abandoned the 800 radios. Our area is one of the weakest for 800 coverage. Enter a building and you have no communications on 800. I used it to communicate with dispatch on a few occasions but it was not safe for fire ground operations.

The 800 system has its purpose and properly setup can be a dependable communications system. I don’t agree with the rest of the chiefs that we shouldn’t use it at all. I think the problem in our county was that it was perceived to be the fix to our VHF problems when it actually created more. Our patch between the 800 and VHF sucked. The VOX operated patch would ping pong between the 2 bands. Without a buffer, short transmissions on VHF would be over before the 800 ever keyed up.

Bottom line, if you have good tower coverage and understand how to use the radio, it will do just fine. Try to get by with some hodgepodge home built patch combining it with an already clustered VHF system, and it will only give you heartburn.

[MFD2500]

I am a firefighter in van burren and a dispatcher in kalamazoo. the 800mhz system works great for police and ems. but not to well for fire. the minute you get into a structure you can lose signal. portible coverage is not very good. command might be just outside, but just like a nextel, if you don't have signal, you can't talk to the guy sitting right next to ya. good theroy but not reliable enough. plus radios are 3000+ dollers and 200 dollers per radio per year for service fees. and the state will not allow individuals to get them programed. they have to be uunder the dept. name. soo overall its a good theroy but not very practicle for the fire service.