Alcoholic Beverages Found at FDNY E-53 L43 East Harlem

[NJFFSA16]

:( :(

NEW YORK (AP) - Four fire department officials were reassigned
and two firefighters were suspended after inspectors found beer and
liquor stashed in a firehouse locker in East Harlem, authorities
said.
The routine inspection took place Sunday at Engine Company
53-Ladder Company 43, but the findings were not made public until
Friday. The firehouse's entire staff was required to undergo drug
testing after the alcohol was found. Two firefighters - John Condon
and Brian McParland - tested positive for controlled substances and
could be fired.
Four officials who oversaw the firehouse - Capts. Alexander
Hagan and Kerry Hollywood and Lts. Glenn Rohan and Joseph
Patriciello - were reassigned indefinitely.
"Firefighting is a dangerous occupation, and anyone impaired by
these substances puts not only themselves, but their colleagues and
the public, at risk," FDNY Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta told
the Daily News for Saturday editions.
Firefighters told inspectors the beer and liquor had been left
over from a holiday party at a restaurant last month.
Tom Butler, spokesman for the Uniformed Firefighters
Association, said the drug tests had been unwarranted because no
firefighters had been caught drinking on the job. He also
challenged the validity of the tests, which he said were conducted
by nonmedical personnel.
Alcohol abuse by firefighters has been under increased scrutiny
since a firehouse brawl on Staten Island critically injured a
firefighter on New Year's Eve. Police are investigating whether
those involved in the fight had been drinking.

(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[stm4710]

Tom Butler, spokesman for the Uniformed Firefighters...........He also
challenged the validity of the tests, which he said were conducted
by nonmedical personnel.
Now there is an un-expected statement!:rolleyes:

[Cellblock776]

Quote- Firefighters told inspectors the beer and liquor had been left
over from a holiday party at a restaurant last month. -Quote

What was the lesson to be learned here boys and girls? After the party either leave the booze at the restaurant or take it directly home. Don't take it to the station.

[mcaldwell]

The firehouse's entire staff was required to undergo drug testing after the alcohol was found.

So what do they do when they suspect drug use? Perform Alcohol Testing?:confused:

[TillerMan25]

Most places require alcohol and drug testing after any MV Crash involving FD Apparatus or after any accusations of Drug/Alcohol usage. Of course the UFA is going to say that they aren't right to do testing, that's what the union is paid to do. I don't agree with it, I think the suspensions and reassignments are valid and justified.

Drinking has no place in the Fire Service and I think Cellblock776 had a good point when he said that they should have taken the liquor home after the party. What was the point of even taking it to a "Middleman" location in the first place??? Stupid moves on the part of the parties involved. :mad:

[E40FDNYL35]

"……but let him who has no sin cast the first stone". :cool:

[TillerMan25]

"……but let him who has no sin cast the first stone".

Unless it is the case of a Volunteer who allegedly sets a fire, and then the entire forum tosses bricks!

[ChiefReason]

Alcohol use/abuse/consumption can be found on both sides of the career/volunteer aisle.
And so can fires set by firefighters.
On a percentage basis? Yeah; one more than the other.
Do you think when America sees the headline, they care if it's career or volunteer?
These are fire service problems.
And we have to deal with them.
CR

[SPFDRum]

Unless it is the case of a Volunteer...
Tiller, although this was used in the context of arson and this is about alcohol, why are you trying to turn this into a career vs. vollie arument?
Nowhere have I read that this alcohol is for on-duty consumptionor that this house has a history of responding under the influance.
But if that comes to light, does it make it any more "right" because they are career- NO. I don't think you will find anyone here defending that behavior.

[TillerMan25]

I don't think it has to do with any Career/Volunteer debate period. It is more of a "FDNY vs. the Rest of the Fire Service" aspect for me.

Nowhere did it say that it was used for in house consumption, no, it did not. However in most arson cases it does not say anywhere that "Little Johnny Volunteer was Born and Bred to Set Fires" either, but 90% make judgements immediately and brand the entire service as bad.

I am sorry I am criticizing the FDNY, but they are not infallible(sic) and it seems alot of people think they are exempt from criticism because of 9-11 or any other reason you can think of. If something negative about the FDNY comes out, alot of people (the same who jump to criticize anyone elses departments for negative incidents) jump right up and say "Let's not pass Judgement" and that sir is bulls--t.

The FDNY is made up of the same type of guys as the Boston FD, the DCFD and any other Fire Department you can find across the United States and abroad. It is made up of less than perfect men and women who, despite the fact they are human and make errors in judgement like the rest of us, have a desire to fight fires and serve the populace. There is no need to place them higher in the food chain than any other firefighter. So lets be relaistic and not look at this as "the FDNY had a Booze Bust," but that "Firefighters in a Firehouse stashed some booze and got Busted!" And the punishment they got is small compared to what would happen if I was a chief.

[E229Lt]

if I was a chief

That will be the day...ROTFLMFAO

[TillerMan25]

Yeah, I am sure if I had my lips firmly planted on the patch of your department and was saying this whole incident was BS from the get go, spending all my money on "Insert Cool FDNY Slogan Here" T-Shirts, and coming to NYC every weekend to hang around firehouses, your attitudes would be different. But dare someone criticize these guys. If they did something wrong, lets just forget it, they are big city fiyamen dat ride da towah laddahs....(And hearing people down here imitate you guys on our Fireground Radios to make them selves sound cool is REEAAALLLY Annoying! )

I am more into the west coast Fire Departments anyway. At lest some of them still wear 3/4 boots and most still use Wooden Ladders! (Now if you could only get LAFD to wear Leather!

[FyredUp]

For some reason while my post appeared it did not register as a new post so I am reposting this. Sorry if it appears twice I will try to delete my first post. So here we go!!

I can't help but recall something I said to the guys on my career FD when one of them said shortly after 9-11 "People think we are heroes. They love us." I said "Enjoy it while it lasts cuz it won't last long."

Unfortunately the FDNY has been cast into another spotlight now. The hero thing has faded in the media's eye and the feeding frenzy begins anew. Are the latest incidents unfortunate? Of course. Is the FDNY perfect? Of course not. Does it paint the entire FDNY with a broad brush? Unfortunately yes.

We sat and rehashed the chair swinging incident, now many sit in judgement of the alcohol in the fire station episode that also includes 2 firefighters that tested positive for cocaine. I don't know the particulars of either incident, other than what has made it into the news and what the Brothers from the FDNY have chosen to share.

As much as I hate to say this, since I feel we are all Brothers and Sisters in this life we have chosen as firefighters, there does seem to be a dose of hypocrisy amongst some on these forums. We have rushed to crucify others for alcohol in the station and for responding drunk. Without passing judgement on the FDNY situation but just stating generically...if no booze in the firehouse is appropriate for some it should be the right thing for all. If in fact the 2 FF's that tested positive for drugs were actually positive for drug use then whatever the policy of the FDNY is for that offense should be followed to the letter.

Unfortunately the disadvantage of constantly in the spot light is eventually everyone will see the wart you have on your chin. And sadly it seems the FDNY's warts are being seen by everyone right now.

To my Brothers in the FDNY I meant no disrespect by what I have written.

FyredUp

[Bones42]

the chair swinging incident Out of curiosity, how is the FF that was hit? Has he been released from the hospital?

[FFFRED]

Tillerman,

If you were doing the following:
I had my lips firmly planted on the patch of your department and was saying this whole incident was BS from the get go, spending all my money on "Insert Cool FDNY Slogan Here" T-Shirts, and coming to NYC every weekend to hang around firehouses, your attitudes would be different.

My attitude would be different...I would think you were a nut without a life.

We don't think we are gods gift to anyone, we go to work and do our duty and do it well. I put my pants on just like you.

You have no clue what it means to be a brother. You stick together no matter what. Through the good times and bad. If my (blood)brother had any problems I wouldn't disown him, I wouldn't refuse to help him or give him shelter if he found himself on hard times. I treat the guys in the firehouse the same way.

The speed with which you and many others look to distance yourself from your so called "brothers" is disturbing and is a testement to the new "everyone for themselves" attitudue in todays fire service where everyone seeks to promote while crawling up and over the backs of their brothers.

No one is perfect and based on my previous expereince in much smaller depts I gaurantee you have just as many problems as the next dept. just on a smaller scale.

I'm glad you'll never be on the fire floor with me. You've shown your true colors.

Obviously you have a insecurity complex and are bitter for whatever reason. GET OVER IT. No one wants to hear you bitch like a mother-in-law. Your comments about "big city fiyamen" and vollys getting flamed for arson, show you are clearly upset over some inequality you have perceived in their treatment here in the forums or at your dept.

As for the accent, YOUR hillbilly backwoods twang would sound funny to us too. It just happens to be the terminology used here(and many other places) and with the regional accent developed over 100s of years. That is just one thing that makes this country so interesting.

Here is a suggestion for you Instead of being in to FDNY or West coast FDs(LA or whomever) why not be in to your OWN dept. Make it the best it can be and don't worry about us or LA or whomever. Wear "your company" t-shirt and be proud of it. You and your dept are what should be most important to you.

FTM-PTB

[hfd66truck]

Fred,

Very well put!

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by FFFRED


Here is a suggestion for you Instead of being in to FDNY or West coast FDs(LA or whomever) why not be in to your OWN dept. Make it the best it can be and don't worry about us or LA or whomever. Wear "your company" t-shirt and be proud of it. You and your dept are what should be most important to you.

FTM-PTB

I believe that is what the majority of other departments around the USA are like. For the most part, most people dont realy care what goes on beyond their own little world which general encopasaes a 100 mile radius.

Why do they make a big deal out of stuff that happens in NYC? Why do people make a big deal over a porno chic firefighter? Why do people make a big deal out of something that happens on a 16 mam voly fire department? Why?

The media, thats why. They can hype anything they so choose.

The FDNY, weather they love it or hate it, are in the spotlight, for better or for worse. On Sept 11 they became America's fire department. They are the most watched, and yes, most scrutinized fire department in the world.

One little mistake, and the media is going to jump all over them.

The reminds me of some quotes from Spider Man (another NYC hero).

Green Goblin: The one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Green Goblin: Spider-Man! This is why only fools are heroes - because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. Let die the woman you love....or suffer the little children. Make your choice, Spider-Man, and see how a hero is rewarded.



In any case, the FDNY is catching hell right now, but wait a week, something else will happen, somewhere else, and then it will be their turn on the whipping post.

[E229Lt]

"Since Jan. 1, 513 firefighters have been injured at 307 fires around the city"

Two tested positive.

[FyredUp]

E229Lt...

I don't believe that anyone here is questioning the amazing job done by the FDNY. Heck, we don't have 1500 FF's on my career FD and we won't come close to 300 working fires for the year.

But unfortunately that is not the issue. The issue as stated so eloquently by SamsonFCDES is that the FDNY is in the media spotlight and since the hero thing has pretty much ran the media course they need something new. Now the anti-hero blitz has hit and every bad thing that hits will get the same bright spotlight that use to shine on the heros.

I also agree with others on this board that many have been quick to crucify other FF's for using alcohol or drugs at the station. I can find no excuse for those things being used on the job and no excuse at all for the drug usage even if off duty.

I will NOT pass judgement on these FF's from the FDNY and will not pass judgement any further on other FF's who hit the media for the same problems until I have the facts. I will however say this, if the FDNY has policies and procedures for dealing with the incidents we are discussing, and those involved are found to be guilty of violating them, they should expect to be punished to the extent of those policies and procedures. On the other hand, if after the investigations they are exonerated, they should all be reinstated to their former positions.

FyredUp

[captstanm1]

When you are an elite organization such as FDNY you are in the spotlight and like it or not you are subject to more public scrutiny. You can open almost any paper and see a story about FDNY or something relevant. How often do you see something about ABC FD with 25 employees? After 9-11 FDNY became even more public as everyone across the nation grieved for them. Now there have been several incidents that have resulted in negative press. Could these same type things have happened in other departments? Sure... Has it happened? Probably so and we just do not know unless a forum member picks it up and posts it.

As far as booze in the FD goes...regardless of the FD...it is/should be a no no! We have beat this to death and some agree, some do not.

As far as the chair incident goes.....should it have happened? No? Do we know "exactly" why, No do not.

The best thing that could/should have happened is that the booze should have been taken home by someone as I feel it has no place in the station. Will we ever know exactly what the entire story it? Probably not.

It happened, someone got disciplined, it has been or is still being investigated. Let's learn from it and move on.

To turn this into a vol/vs Career bashing session is totally uncalled for and inappropriate. As CR says....it is prevalent on both sides of the fence!

[COFire]

This is easy, get the boys some help, test on a regular basis to ensure compliance, learn from it and move on.

There is absolutely no need to sit here and say this and that about anything other than what we actually know!!

NEXT TOPIC!!

[PAVolunteer]

From the New York Post ...

Burn to Run (http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/45367.htm)
January 31, 2004 -- Two veteran city firefighters are feeling the heat today after being caught singing "Born to Run" and swigging Bud Light in an East Village karaoke bar while in uniform and on duty.
Both are members of the Fire Department's Public Assembly Unit, which inspects bars, restaurants and other public venues.

The pair - a lieutenant and a captain - were smoked out by a passer-by who called 911 after spotting them through the plate-glass window of Karaoke Sing Sing, at 81 Ave. A, sitting at the bar downing brewskis, sources said.

The irate caller told the 911 operator, "There are firemen in uniform and they are drinking at the bar," a police source said.

After cops responded and Fire Department brass were notified, the two - Lt. Robert Doherty, 44, and Capt. Terence Walsh, 40 - were suspended without pay by Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta pending a full probe by his Bureau of Investigations and Trials.

Their alleged workday singing-swigging session came just days after Scoppetta told a new crop of lieutenants "drinking on the job or alcohol in the firehouse is totally unacceptable . . . we have a zero-tolerance policy."

Bar manager Ray Noaki said the two fire officers stop in about once a month. Noaki said the pair had quaffed beers in uniform on at least two previous occasions, and never paid for their drinks.

On Thursday, he said, they dropped by shortly before 8 p.m. and told the bartender they wanted to see the certificate of occupancy.

She told them she didn't know where it was because it was in the process of being renewed, "which they knew," Noaki said.

The bartender called Noaki at home and he told her to keep them there and he'd be right over.

"Give them whatever they want. Don't charge them," he recalled telling her. He said the two entertained themselves and about eight other patrons, singing Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" and another number together.

When he arrived shortly after 9:30, he said, cops were questioning them.

Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said a sergeant from the 9th Precinct responded to the 911 call and found "firefighters there in uniform. We called the Fire Department and it was handled administratively through the Fire Department."

FDNY officials would not discuss the case yesterday, and refused to say if Walsh and Doherty had undergone sobriety tests.

A source said police told FDNY brass both men were "found to be fit for duty" and that cops determined they "had barely consumed a beer."

Naoki said both were in the middle of their second Bud Light when police arrived.

Stay Safe

[Ltmdepas3280]

Lets put everything in perspective the FDNY employes well over 10000 people...your basic small city. If they have a couple of assualts,a few drinking problems and the every now and then drug problem, I would say that they are not doing that bad of a job of policing there own. If you think about it how many people here live or work in a perfect place.
I would like someone on these forums to find a utopian city so that I can move there and fight thier fires with there perfect fire department ........:rolleyes:

[hfd66truck]

... and the plot thickens ...

And one has nothing to do with the other.

I am not condoning anything, but figure it out. These guys are firemen, and like the LT said "a small city", I believe its more like 12,000. So in the past, lets say 8 weeks, you have had an assault, a raid which produced old booze with no consumption and 2 guys with trace amounts of coke in their system, and then 2 guys that "had a moment" and sang kareoke(sp). Anyone wanna bet who the 911 caller was?

So, out of 12,000 guys you have 4 that have been found in the wrong, plus a whole bunch that got nailed by circumstance. (ie. beer in the house, the details surrounding the fight, etc etc) Figure it in percentages folks. Its like .05% of the force that is having issues, yet its the front page of the paper.

So if your Department of 30 guys had the same percentage of "problems" it would equal .015 of a person. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but should put it in perspective.

Dave

[Bones42]

Maybe it's just that people are now noticing the problems instead of "keeping it inhouse" and hiding them. :(

[hfd66truck]

....and maybe some people (papers, brass, etc) have an axe to grind and make it front page news.....

[TillerMan25]

FDNY Firefighter Put on Desk Duty After Steroid Bust
NY Post

JEANE MacINTOSH and KATE SHEEHY
Courtesy of The New York Post

A hottie Bravest who moonlights as a raunchy nude stripper has been put on desk duty after being busted for steroid possession, authorities said yesterday.

Rodney St. Cloud, the muscle-bound "Mr. April" in the Fire Department's official 2004 calendar - and a k a beefcake "Hot Rod" in the exotic-dancing world - was taken off the line at Engine Co. 43/Ladder 59 in The Bronx after his arrest last May 23, sources said.

The two-year veteran was found with "a large shipment of [anabolic] steroids," one source told The Post. "But the grand jury was dismissed because they couldn't prove intent to sell."

Sources said St. Cloud also tested positive for "controlled substances" after his arrest, but did not elaborate.

The pumped-up St. Cloud has been weightlifting for years and recently placed 12th in the 2003 Mr. Olympia.

FDNY spokesman Frank Gribbon only said the department has a "zero-tolerance policy regarding drug use."

"There are currently administrative charges pending [against St. Cloud]," he said.

While St. Cloud's higher-ups previously considered him literally a poster boy for the department, they may want to rethink their position.

The manager of a sexy male dance group said St. Cloud had been working for him for more than four years until about a month and a half ago, when he booted the Bravest - because his act was too sexually explicit.

"His stuff is a little extreme for us," said Tony Abrams of Nyc HotBoyz.

"He goes totally nude, and we don't do that," Abrams said.

"I would classify him as a stripper. He's not a dancer . . . a lot of his show deals with [bodybuilding] strength positioning."

Abrams said he knew St. Cloud was a firefighter but said it wasn't part of his act.

Still, an Internet ad for the group boasts that it offers "firefighters" - and St. Cloud has said the group employs another Bravest who goes by the name "BobKat."

Abrams, asked if he was surprised to find firefighters in the exotic-dancer ranks, replied:

"No, I'm used to it. We get a lot of them."

FDNY spokesman Gribbon said the Bravest have to clear outside work with the department.

But "clearly, this is not the kind of activity that is or would be endorsed," he said.

St. Cloud could not be reached for comment.

In an interview on bodybuilding last fall, he said: "I've been blessed with a good body, and I enjoy giving some of my good fortune back."


Like This Article? E-Mail This Story to a Friend or Co-Worker

[ChiefReason]

Well, this thread has gotten a little off track.
All's I can say about this latest revelation is:
Rodney St. Cloud? Meet Chantel Lace!
CR

[FyredUp]

It appears that some people on these forums are almost giddy with their pleasure that the FDNY has some personnel problems. TillerMan25, PAVolunteer and SamsonFCDES seem ever so eager to point out that an extremely small number of the total FDNY firefighters have been in the news lately casting a less than glowing representation of the FDNY.

Some of you have whined about others jumping on other fire departments and their members for wrong doing that made the media. Someone please explain to me how doing EXACTLY what you gripe others have been doing seperates you from those you complain about?

I personally find it disgusting that you have to stoop so low as to bring totally unrelated news stories into this discussion. I also find it disgusting that you seem to revel in pointing this stuff out.

Are there problems that need to be addressed? Yes. And I am sure the FDNY will take care of those problems in the proper manner as deemed by SOG's. Policy and Procedures and in accordnace with the Union Contract.

Stepping down off my soap box.

FyredUp

[FyredUp]

duplicate post sorry

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by TillerMan25
The two-year veteran was found with "a large shipment of [anabolic] steroids," one source told The Post. "But the grand jury was dismissed because they couldn't prove intent to sell."

The pumped-up St. Cloud has been weightlifting for years and recently placed 12th in the 2003 Mr. Olympia.

:D I always find it interesting when people are surprised that IFBB type bodybuilders actualy use steriods... LOL, that is the ONLY way to grow muscles on your muscles.

While St. Cloud's higher-ups previously considered him literally a poster boy for the department, they may want to rethink their position.

Hmmm, I dunno, he could still be a poster boy, sort of. Hell, when I was a teenager the thought of being on the FDNY, haveing a herculean physique, being surrouded by hundreds of women swooning over my body, and the promis of all the sex I could possibly handle would apeal to me very very much. Who am I kidding, it appeals to me now! :p

Not exactly role model material, but one lucky guy none the less... lucky until now anyway.

The manager of a sexy male dance group said St. Cloud had been working for him for more than four years until about a month and a half ago, when he booted the Bravest - because his act was too sexually explicit.

"His stuff is a little extreme for us," said Tony Abrams of Nyc HotBoyz.

"He goes totally nude, and we don't do that," Abrams said.

You know you have been a bad bad boy when you are kicked off the stip team.

Abrams, asked if he was surprised to find firefighters in the exotic-dancer ranks, replied:

"No, I'm used to it. We get a lot of them."

Chantilly Lace should have her lawyers look into this, maybe it would help her case. Maybe there needs to be a new union...

NFA... Non-uniformed Firefithgers Association.

In an interview on bodybuilding last fall, he said: "I've been blessed with a good body, and I enjoy giving some of my good fortune back."

Good fortune... so thats what they are calling it these days.

:D

OMG, this has just got to stop, I have read so many Chantilly Lace jokes, now this. My guts hurt.

[ChiefReason]

FyredUp:
Calm down; you're repeating yourself!
My comment points to the hyprocisy that we see sometimes. If you recall, we were all flogging the young lady from California who was a volunteer firefighter and also a porn queen. I was one who felt that she didn't really exemplify the ideals that we all strive towards in our roles as public servants.
Unfortunately, since our society is so connected, news travels very fast. And if you find yourself or someone whom you know in the news, they become fair game for people with opinions. That may not be what we like, but that's a fact.
There is a feeding frenzy going on right now and sadly, it is the FDNY that is the chum.
CR

[SamsonFCDES]

Double standards are BS.

If Chantelly Lace is fair game for jokes (some very funny!) then Rodney St. Cloud is fair game for jokes.

[TillerMan25]

Fyred Up, it's puzzle time.

Gimme a Two-word phrase that starts with "F" and ends with "U?"

Can be a verb or a noun. Insert it into your brain from me to you tough guy, and have a nice day. And end that with a "G.F.Y." (If you can figure that one out.

It's not that we a reveling over problems with the FDNY, I am just pointing out that these are not the teflon guys that everyone thought they were. I remember at one point on here, if you even dared to question the FDNY on anything, you were flogged out of town. Those days are over. I will agree with something that was said by FFFred:

Wear "your company" t-shirt and be proud of it. You and your dept are what should be most important to you.

My Department is better. We haven't had Arsonists, Drunks or any Firefighters assaulted that I know of (we are all into the drinking but we keep it out of the firehouse)

Although Mr. Fred, I must disagree about my Southern Twang. I don't have one. I am from Maryland, not Tennessee. Go to Baltimore and tell me if anyone there has a Southern Twang, C'mon don Bawlmer. Sheesh, even most of the people down in Southern Maryland and Western Maryland don't have southern twang.

And Mr. Fred, if distancing myself from a Firefighter that does something "F-ed Up" makes me have no clue what Brotherhood is, than I don't want to be part of it. Brotherhood isn't getting drunk and nearly killing another Brother with a Chair and then attempting to cover up for it. Brotherhood isn't getting hopped up on Coke or Steroids and Coming to work to down the liquor you got stashed in a Locker at the Station. Brotherhood is taking care of one another to make sure we all return home safely and that the job gets done.

Brotherhood is calling your sick buddy at home to make sure he has everything he needs.

Brotherhood is covering a shift for your buddy when his kid or spouse is sick.

Brotherhood is making sure the company attends one of your shift-mates weddings or his kids B-day party.

Brotherhood is always making sure you got your Buddies back in a job, going in together, coming out together.

Brotherhood is making sure the new guy on the shift gets the brunt of the pranks, but is made to feel comfortable and assisted in anyway to make sure he excels in his position and fits into the team wheel seamlessly.

Brotherhood is always giving the nod, the wave, the smile to anyone you see on the road who has FD tags or is wearing a shirt identifying himself as a Firefighter or EMS provider (yeah, even though we sometime shun them, they are our brothers and sisters too)

Brotherhood is hard to define....but it's easily accomplished.

What happened the past few weeks in NYC is not Brotherhood. It is actually taking Brotherhood for granted. And it shouldn't be tolerated nor defended.

FFFFred, don't try to tell me what Brotherhood is.

Be safe.

[CaptainGonzo]

tiller

Nobody is coated in teflon, and the PGFD has had it's share of screw ups (yes, I do lurk at the watch desk)

The examples you have cited about FDNY is what...4 out of 13,000 firefighters?

We all work with our share of anal sphincters (I think it is an NFPA requirement to have at least 1 per department)... but when the tones go off, the lines are pulled, roofs and windows vented and the fire is overhauled... we overlook the differences in opinions.

Brotherhood is everything you stated earlier... I just wish more people on both sides of the fence would realize that...

[FyredUp]

Tillerman...

Thanks for proving my point.

FyredUp

[FFFRED]

Tiller Man,

You agree with me that you should be in to your own dept...yet by your own admision.
I am more into the west coast Fire Departments anyway.
And for whatever reason I can't imainge why. So which is it "tough guy"?

Your dept is better? Is that why you are more into West Coast FDs???

Your dept has no problems??? Are you kidding me? There are plenty of guys up here that worked in your perfect flawless little burb down there and none of them that I know are as deluisional as you to think that nothing ever went wrong there. I wont list the problems here as I am above airing your dirty laundry in public.

And yes they and you do have a twang...I know this because I have my own as I'm not originally from NY as well.

I still standby the statement that you have an inferiorty complex. I don't know anyone that thinks we are 11,000 Saints. You are the only one claiming we are covered in Teflon. You say everyone thinks this...yet you are the only one stating this. Where is the Thread... "FDNY is Covered in Teflon"?

It would appear CR, Capt Gonzo, and many others can place all these events in the proper perspective. You though can go through life knowing you are "better" because you know the real truth. :rolleyes:

I didn't say you had to agree with condone actions taken by the brothers. However just because someone has a lapse in judgement or does something you don't agree with doesn't mean you have you abandon them. If a member of a volly FD is a porn star, who cares...it is her own time and your sense of morality has no bearing on her right to perform furniture intercourse or whatever she was doing. As I said you stick together in good times and bad.

I guess Mr. Tiller that since your dept is "better" and has had no "Arsonists, Drunks or any Firefighters assaulted" ever that you wouldn't know what it means to stick together during bad times.

Apparently you only know and understand the easy half of brotherhood...not the difficult half.

FTM-PTB

[TillerMan25]

Your dept is better? Is that why you are more into West Coast FDs???

I like the Tactics of West Coast Departments, I don't choose to wear LAFD or SFFD t-shirts everywhere I go. I like the way they do things.


There are plenty of guys up here that worked in your perfect flawless little burb down there and none of them that I know are as deluisional as you to think that nothing ever went wrong there. I wont list the problems here as I am above airing your dirty laundry in public.

Lets stop the generalization here. I am not a member of the P.G.F.D. or the PGFEMS or whatever. I am a member of an individual VFD within that County. I am sure members of the Aviation VFD do not associate themselves as being with the FDNY. And as far as I know, no one that is alumnus from my VFD has ever gone to work for the FDNY. So the people you are talking to have no knowledge of the individual station.


And yes they and you do have a twang...I know this because I have my own as I'm not originally from NY as well.

How would you know how I speak? You have never spoken to me. I might not originally be from Maryland. I might be from the Northeast, Born in Boston! Never Know. I know the similarities between a Hillbilly Twang and the way a New Yorker destroys the English Language are pretty close.

yet you are the only one stating this. Where is the Thread... "FDNY is Covered in Teflon"?

Go through these threads. There are several threads involving the FDNY where people get critical of them and are smacked on the nose for being critical. Inferiority? Nope....I have nothing to be inferior too.

However just because someone has a lapse in judgement or does something you don't agree with doesn't mean you have you abandon them.

If it makes me look bad or could possible implicate me, I will damn sure abandon them. Thats like saying you stick by your buddy if he murders someone or commits a crime. I like to keep myself around more morally sound people who don't assault other firefighters when they drink or drink on duty, or use drugs.

If a member of a volly FD is a porn star, who cares...it is her own time and your sense of morality has no bearing on her right to perform furniture intercourse or whatever she was doing.

Bad example, I don't care what you do on your own time. But if she were at the station dancing nude or whatever while on duty, she would get the same scrutiny from me.


Like I said earlier, if Brotherhood is condoning people who do wrong, covering up for illegal acts, than I dont want to have a part in it.

Have a nice Day.

[E40FDNYL35]

;)

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Now THATS an original photo idea.

[E229Lt]

If it makes me look bad or could possible implicate me, I will damn sure abandon them.

TRUE COLORS

[APROMISEKEPT]

By Kerry Burke & Martin MbUgua, Daily News Staff Writers, 2/4/04

With the nearest fire hydrant frozen shut, firefighters yesterday rescued a Harlem woman and her cat from a burning apartment while fighting the flames with portable fire extinguishers, officials said.

Ellen Stoken, 61, was found unconscious in the bathtub inside her studio apartment on E. 105th St., said Dave Billig, a FD spokesman.

Members of Ladder Co. 43 in Spanish Harlem, nicknamed El Barrio's Bravest, rushed to the 10-story apartment building after receiving a 911 call about 2:40 p.m., Billig said.

Lt. Tony Montaruli, 46 and FF's Mark Carpiniello, 41; Jerry Duden, 36 and Todd Fredrickson went to the ninth-floor apartment and broke the door.

"There were flames all around us, we couldn't see anything," said Fredrickson who rescued Stoken as Carpiniello fought back the flames along the rescue path. "We kept her blocked from the flames."

Stoken suffered second and third-degree burns to 65% of her body and smoke inhalation. She was taken to Weill Cornell Medical Center's burn unit in critical condition, Fire Department officials said.

Firefighters eventually ran a hose from another hydrant and put the fire out in 20 minutes.

The firefighters also rescued Stoken's cat, Bubba, whom she adopted nine month ago after finding her abandoned in an alley, Rodriguez said.

Montaruli, a 22 veteran, said he was proud of the FDNY crew.

Hey Mr. TillerMan25, My very first post is just for you. Have a nice day.

[FireLt1951]

Ah, to live in such an ideal world must be absolutely fantastic.

[E229Lt]

Hey Mr. TillerMan25, My very first post is just for you. Have a nice day.

And a fine post it is. You like it KARL?

[hfd66truck]

Brotherhood isn't getting drunk and nearly killing another Brother with a Chair and then attempting to cover up for it. Brotherhood isn't getting hopped up on Coke or Steroids and Coming to work to down the liquor you got stashed in a Locker at the Station.

Tiller, And these are facts? You are sure about that huh Chris? Part of the problem is that some people are to willing to believe what the papers print. And lately it seems like when it comes to the FDNY, some "people" go out of their way to hop on the ole bandwagon and flame away.

Do you know the brother was drunk?

Do you know there was a conspiracy to cover up the event? On maybe an attempt to keep what appeared to be a minor scuffle from developing into something big. Unfortunately it did turn into a big deal, and the man responsible took his lumps. maybe someday you'll know how much of a hit he took, and why. Then again, you don't care because if he ****ed up, in your book he is ****.

Hopped up on coke, or trace amounts? No that it really matters, but don't blow the thing outta proportion either. And again, was the booze being consumed, or stored there until a later function? Maybe a bad choice to keep it there, but not the same as drinking it.

Tiller, you jump on everyone who jumps on the volunteer arsonist, or the volunteer drinking in the station, yet you jump twice as fast when it happens in the FDNY.

Brotherhood does mean sticking together, even though things that may affect you in an adverse way. Not everyone was born under the sign of perfect, and sometimes brothers need a hand to see their way though the tough times.

[Cellblock776]

With the nearest fire hydrant frozen shut, firefighters yesterday rescued a Harlem woman and her cat from a burning apartment while fighting the flames with portable fire extinguishers, officials said.
WOW. Talk about culture shock. Down here we never have to worry about the hydrants we have freezing shut since it rarely gets that cold. Also we don't practice 'catching the hydrant' since we have so many rural areas in our district or neighborhoods served with 2 or 4 inch water lines. Our tankers keep the water flowing to the pumper. And we don't carry any portable fire extinguishers on any of our trucks. I once put out a car fire which was still inside the engine compartment using a 5lb dry chem can I keep in my car and also knocked down a fire on the stove of the local Chevron station. Bacon grease caught fire. Both times the VFD had the extinguishers refilled for me. Still the Chief says that we don't need extinguishers because all of our trucks have at least 1000 gallons of water to do the job with.
If it makes me look bad or could possible implicate me, I will damn sure abandon them.
A friend is someone who will come visit you when you are in jail. A true friend is the one sitting in the cell next to you saying "Damn, that was FUN!"
Gimme a Two-word phrase that starts with "F" and ends with "U?" Can be a verb or a noun. Insert it into your brain from me to you tough guy, and have a nice day. And end that with a "G.F.Y." (If you can figure that one out.
WHOA!! Dude, That's uncalled for in any forum. You need to take a timeout.

[TillerMan25]

APROMISEKEPT,

Thanks for the post. Whats the Point? I can find 5 or more Stories on Washington D.C.'s Bravest doing the same things.

MIKEY, Yeah, nice pic. It's a training burn....again, whats the point? We train in the structure and when we are done, we burn it to the ground. Everyones wins, we get to train in a live fire environment and the owner of the property saves $$$ on demolition of the structure.

Dave, you answered your own question in your post. Do people have all the facts when a volunteer or for that matter, any firefighter from a smaller department screws up? Nope, they just blame, blame, blame. You have always been fair with me no matter what the subject, so I will do the same with you.

And lately it seems like when it comes to the FDNY, some "people" go out of their way to hop on the ole bandwagon and flame away.

It is shocking to alot of people Dave. These are the "Report from Engine Co. 82" guy, the guys everyone put high up on a pedestal after 9-11, the guys who are part of the worlds largest professional Fire Department. The Best, as alot of people say. So when all this stuff surfaced in a matter of weeks, I think alot of "people" were kind of scratching thier heads. I would criticize and condemn this activity in any department. Sorry if it offends the regular posters from the FDNY, but their Department is no better than yours, mine or ours.

Not everyone was born under the sign of perfect, and sometimes brothers need a hand to see their way though the tough times.

Thats a good line. I expect to hear that the next time there is a story posted about a firefighter commiting arson, or stealing, or drinking on duty or starring in a porno. All I am asking is to stop the double standard.

Cellblock776. If I had posted the actual words, I would agree to take a timeout. But I kept them cleaner than the Super Bowl Halftime show.

To get off topic...does Janet Jackson look like a Porker or what? Definately not the Hottie she used to be.

[EFD840]

Cellblock,

I know it ain't my business but you said:

we don't carry any portable fire extinguishers on any of our trucks.

and

the Chief says that we don't need extinguishers because all of our trucks have at least 1000 gallons of water to do the job with

Forgetting all the tactical uses of portable extinguishers, has anyone down there looked at the ISO chart of required equipment for pumpers lately? They say you've got to have a water and dry chem.

[PAVolunteer]

It appears that some people on these forums are almost giddy with their pleasure that the FDNY has some personnel problems. TillerMan25, PAVolunteer and SamsonFCDES seem ever so eager to point out that an extremely small number of the total FDNY firefighters have been in the news lately casting a less than glowing representation of the FDNY.
First of all, read what I post BEFORE you type. There is no pleasure, there is no giddiness. It was a news story.
Some of you have whined about others jumping on other fire departments and their members for wrong doing that made the media. Someone please explain to me how doing EXACTLY what you gripe others have been doing seperates you from those you complain about?
The "whining" was pointing out the FACT that everyone starts getting the rope ready when a volunteer is found to be drinking in the firehouse. If you actually read what I posted about this, I followed the statement with:
and rightfully so
referring to everyone bashing the volunteer for drinking in the firehouse. However, someone posts a news story about alledged alcohol and the FDNY ... and all of a sudden we're low-life scum.
... again ... read before you type.
I personally find it disgusting that you have to stoop so low as to bring totally unrelated news stories into this discussion. I also find it disgusting that you seem to revel in pointing this stuff out.
Let's see ... both stories involved alledged involvement with alcohol, while on duty, in the same department. Exactly how is this unrelated?
... again ... ready before you type.

All of you guys need to relax. No one is calling the Fire Department of New York City a bad department ... no one is calling for anyone's head ... no one is claiming rampant corruption within the department. No one is saying that they are better than anyone else.

... and you are absolutely right, we are talking about a rather small handful of individuals within a department of 12,000+. Nonetheless, it happens, and we are (obviously) discussing it. If you don't want to discuss it, don't ... but don't beat on those who do.

hfd66truck ... okay, bad choice of words ... post edited.

[FFFRED]

It is shocking to allot of people Dave. These are the "Report from Engine Co. 82" guy, the guys everyone put high up on a pedestal after 9-11, the guys who are part of the worlds largest professional Fire Department. The Best, as allot of people say. So when all this stuff surfaced in a matter of weeks, I think allot of "people" were kind of scratching their heads. I would criticize and condemn this activity in any department. Sorry if it offends the regular posters from the FDNY, but their Department is no better than yours, mine or ours.

No it isn't shocking to most "people". No one is scratching their head. As you may note most posters here realize the context of these events. They understand you aren't going to have 11,000 saints. It isn't practical to think you can hire that many people under our unbiased hiring system and have guys who will always do the right thing. Add in a very competitive media (tabloid) market, and you get high exposure front-page news that in most cities wouldn't even make the paper at all.

If finally comes out:
but their Department is no better than yours, mine or ours.
Do people have all the facts when a volunteer or for that matter, any firefighter from a smaller department screws up? Nope, they just blame, blame, blame.

For the record I haven't or seen any other FDNY member bash or blame your volly depts for anything. So why do you feel it necessary to attack us with your diatribe?

You are either jealous or bitter and no one wants to see you whine like a girl with a skinned knee constantly on this forum. How does doing the same thing you are complaining about makes you a better man???

We are no DIFFERENT or BETTER in that respect than any other group or organization. We never claimed to be angles, we have our problems just like everyone else...including your dept. whether you believe it or not.

We ARE second to NONE. And that includes you and your little outfit. And it doesn't come from taking buff photos in front of burning houses. We train constantly and perform exceptionally well at jobs. We place great importance on proficiency, you must perform well or you are an embarrassment to the company. Company Pride is foremost in the minds of the members. This drives the members to excel at their jobs.

Most firemen that stop in and visit my firehouse do mention how different the attitude towards job knowledge, technical skill and training is as compared to where they come from. It isn't unusual to see a member with a procedural manual open or drilling on the apparatus floor.

And what many FFs wish they had is that we stick together no matter what. True Brotherhood. Not your phony veneer "brotherhood" you wear on a Galls t-shirt. Just because a brother is down doesn't mean you desert him. You stand by him and you give him a hand up. That is the right thing to do. That doesn't mean you have to condone his actions. You don't leave him or even worse give him up...Backstabbing and (figuratively) leaving a brother for dead isn't Brotherhood. But it is clear you'll never understand that.

What is offending and regrettable is you generalize, exaggerate and make up your own "facts"(as if you had a clue) about what happened and then you exclaim (proudly I might add) that if anyone you know would have a lapse in judgment you would distance yourself from them. Lets desert them, screw them and their problems! Every man for himself!

Your comments indicate you have a weak constitution and you probably wouldn't last on the fire floor. I'm Glad I'm not in Clinton, Maryland Home of the Immaculate Volly FD!

FTM-PTB

[TillerMan25]

FFFred, it is obvious that your panties are in a wad because someone is not kissing your rear. I would expect that if Alan Baird came on here and defended his position and his actions, there would be people crawling all over him. Everyone has an excuse or a defense for their actions, even if they are BS.

You have been whining like a girl too. By sitting her an arguing with me, you might look just as foolish to some.

For the record I haven't or seen any other FDNY member bash or blame your volly depts for anything.

Lets set the record straight. The VFD that I belong to has nothing to do with my opinions or my views. They are strictly mine and have been gathered over time on my own accord and not with someone from my VFD guiding me or telling me what to say. I sm not attacking YOU or the FDNY, I am attacking the DEPLORABLE ACTIONS that have taken place. Fact or not, the mere accusation of ALCOHOL, DRUGS or ASSAULT or ARSON in the Fire Service is DEPLORABLE. We take positions of public trust and the public trusts us to come into their homes to serve them. I don't think too many of them would want someone coming to their homes who has set a fire, ignored rules and got someone hurt, is drunk, on drugs, assaults people or covers up bad behavior.

We are no DIFFERENT than any other group or organization...we have our problems just like everyone else...including your dept. whether you believe it or not.

Not saying we don't have problems. We just don't have them of this magnitude. Do a search, I don't think you will find us on the front page of Firehouse.com ( I guess that is a tabloid media outlet too) unless it is referencing a significant (fire or EMS related) incident in our area.

We ARE second to NONE. And that includes you and your little outfit. And it doesn't come from taking buff photos in front of burning houses.

If it were hanging in some Nutjobs basement who had never ridden a firetruck because he was mentally unstable or whatever, I would agree it was a buff photo. However the picture taken went along with years of pictures that adorn our TV and Workout room that chronicle the history and personnel in our department, it's called pride. I can probably find many of the same type pics on any of the dozens of FDNY company websites. But I am not going tit for tat with you, because I am better than that.

Just because a brother is down doesn't mean you desert him. You stand by him and you give him a hand up. That is the right thing to do.

What if he is bringing your department to a negative light? What if he is implicating you by your association? What is the limit we stand by people who are accused? Why wasn't anyone standing by "Giving Brother Baird a Hand up?" What about the Driver of the Tanker in Wyoming? Where is his hand up? All they got was a bunch of people from OTHER DEPARTMENTS calling for their heads. So much for the Brotherhood there....

Backstabbing and (figuratively) leaving a brother for dead isn't Brotherhood. But it is clear you'll never understand that.

Replace Backstabbing with "Not Covering Up for someone who does something Stupid therefore keeping your nose clean" is what I call "Job Security." You cannot cloak this with Brotherhood dude. Brotherhood is not about defending the wrongdoers. They have Lawyers for that. Giving the guy a word of encouragement here and there is fine, but risking your own butt to keep someone out of trouble is NOT WORTH IT!

What is offending and regrettable is you generalize, exaggerate and make up your own "facts"(as if you had a clue) about what happened

Not following you here Slick. I used what was presented in the News Stories. I never made up any "facts." How about when it is generalized that Volunteers are arsonists and glory hogs? (Never seen too many glorified TV shows about Podunk FD)

Lets desert them, screw them and their problems! Every man for himself!

If it keeps my personnel file clean, you are damn right.

Your comments indicate you have a weak constitution and you probably wouldn't last on the fire floor. I'm Glad I'm not in Clinton, Maryland Home of the Immaculate Volly FD!

Been there for 12 years, 8 more to go. Never had any issues with a weak constitution. I support my friends, but if supporting my friends causes me to have any negative actions placed on me, write-ups, suspensions or what have you, I am out of there.

Not an Immaculate VFD, but like I said earlier, they have nothing to do with it. My opinions were formed on my own and I wasn't attacking your department, just the actions and the dimwits that acted them.

Save yourself the energy in your fingers dude. Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall. I will be here until I get banned or you shut up or get angry and ignore me. I won't back down from my position on this issue. What are you gonna do about my opinion? Come down and beat me up?.....LOL (that would be pretty childish)

[FyredUp]

Cellblock776...

>WHOA!! Dude, That's uncalled for in any forum. You need to take a timeout.<

I could not agree with you more thanks for the support.

PAVolunteer...

I did read what you typed and I STAND BEHIND what I wrote. You cannot bash another fire department, career or volunteer, while at the same time moaning and wailing pitifully when others do that to a volunteer fire department.

I am both a career FF in a medium sized city and a volunteer in a small rural community. I find the use of drugs or alcohol while on duty, or as a volly being under the influence when responding to be absolutley without any defense at all. However, my viewpoint is now clear that I will not jump on the bash the FF bandwagon until the proof is out and clear.

Just an editorial comment...as a 2 hatter it is quite interesting to me to see why we have trouble moving ahead in the fire service in this country. We spend so much time bashing each other we need no outside forces to destroy us. Some vollies hate the paid guys, some paid guys hate the vollies, even some paid guys that were vollies hate the vollies. Heck 3 days out of 9 I hate the vollies and 6 days out of 9 I hate the paid guys. Talk about a split personality!! To me all this crap boils down to is that stupid mindless endless argument. Although, I guess there are some paid guys who want to jump on the FDNY too.

I am proud of the 2 departments I am associated with. I think within our resources we do a heck of a good job for our citizens. That does not mean I can't admire and appreciate the job done by the FDNY, Boston, Chicago, LA City and County, Phoenix and even closer to home Milwaukee. I don't want to be them and everything they do may not work for us, but if they have something that they do that we can learn from why reinvent the wheel over and over and over.

Stay safe all of my Brothers and Sisters.

FyredUp

[TillerMan25]

Fyred, I can agree with your post. I concede to it.


PAVolunteer,

Looks like we are on the same page to an extent. and BTW, like the ICON! Go Flyers! (Caps lost Jagr, I am disgruntled with them now..LOL)

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by TillerMan25
It is shocking to alot of people Dave. These are the "Report from Engine Co. 82" guy, the guys everyone put high up on a pedestal after 9-11, the guys who are part of the worlds largest professional Fire Department.

Just a nitpick, IIRC the Tokyo fire department has something like 14,000, I think that they are the largest. They also have 7 robots, I like robots. :cool:

Sorry if it offends the regular posters from the FDNY, but their Department is no better than yours, mine or ours.


Lets lighten up people, everybody is human (except those robots in disquse) so lets all get along...

OR LETS GET IT ON!!! :p

PVFD (My Voly) Vs. FDNY

Tale of the tape (From FDNY website and My PVFD info cheat sheet)

NYC Population - 8,008,278
PVFD Fire District Population- 1,000

FDNY Coverage Area- 321.8 Sq. Miles
PVFD coverage area- 740 Sq. Miles

FDNY Personel- 12,000(?) Nice round number anyway
PVFD personel- 27 :p

FDNY Units: ? Lots of pumpers and Tucks?
PVFD units: 9 Brush, 3 tenders (water tankers that dont fly), 2 pumpers, 1 CAFS, 1 Command, 1 Support

FDNY Terrain: Urban Jugle
PVFD Terrain: Western US mix of prairie, badlands, pine forest, small town

FDNY mission: Firefighting, Hazmat, EMS (more?)
PVFD mission: Firefighting, EMS support calls, no actualy ambulance EMS mission, there is a seperate Voly ambulance crew

While we (PVFD) cover nearly twice as many square miles as the FDNY, they have 8000 times our population, and about 445 times our manpower.

:eek:

Looking at the square miles covered, one could concieve that we are under staffed.

PVFD firefighters per square mile: .036 firefighters per square mile
FDNY firefighters per square mile: 37.4 firefighters per square mile

The FDNY has 1039 times more firefighters per square mile then the PVFD does.

But, when comparing the proportions of manpower per population, the FDNY seems very under staffed.

PVFD firefighters per citizen: 0.027
FNCY firefighters per citizen: 0.0015

The PVFD has 18 times more firefighters per citzen then the FDNY does.

A look at the fire stats, 2002 (FDNY stats link: http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/stats/fire_cwsum_cy02.pdf):

FDNY total fires for 2002: 51563 fires of all types.
PVFD total fires for 2002: 62 fires of all types (mostly wildfire)

Fires per firefighter FDNY 2002: 4.29 fires
Fires per firefighter PVFD 2002: 2.29

The FDNY firefighter on average fought 2 more fires in 2002 then did a PVFD fire fighter. Of course there are FDNY firefighers that made many more fires then that, as there are PVFD firefighters that never miss a call, but that is the average from the stats I have on hand from FDNY website and my PVFD records I keep handy for grants.

But, lets now examine what the FDNY terms as "Serious Incidents" ("those fires that imply severity, from "all hands", which is a fire or incident where an minimum of four fire units are fully engauged, to 5th alarm or higher."

Everyone of the PVFD call ran in 2002 meet the FDNY definition of a "serious incident" due to the fact that each page out brings the majority of the 27 PVFD firefighters. Given that the PVFD vehicle staffing requirment is 2 firefighters (1 under special circumstances), the 4 unit reponse is a given at every incident.

Serious incidents for 2002:

FDNY serious incidents: 2946 for .25 serious incidents per firefighter
PVFD serious incidents: 62 for 2.29 serious incidetns per firefighter

When one compares the budgets of the FDNY to the PVFD, it is very shocking... and very amusing. But, since that is so very lop sidded, lets compare the budget the FDNY spends on one firefighter to the entire PVFD fire budget. I will take the salary listed on the FDNY website for a 5 year veteran firefigher. I will use this number bacause the average experience for the PVFD is 5 or greater years.

FDNY 5 year veterain compensation: $61,511 (70,000)
PVFD anual yearly budget 3 year average:$55,000

After you take into acount the money spent on one 5 year FDNY veterain for training and equiping, I would approximate that the FDNY 5 year veterain budget would reach about 70,000$.

The FDNY spends 22% more on one firefighter then the PFVD spends on its year firefighting budget.

While statistics are fun, lets examine actualy fireground senarios.

Senario 1, Fighting fire in NYC:

Hell, we dont even have a ladder truck. We would be screwed fighting fire in NY!!! Our 2 tired old pumpers and our CAFS wildland heavy, the units that put out our structure and vehicle fires are wholy and completely unsuited for the fire enviroment in NYC. Let alone the staffing requirment. Our 27 guys, even if they didnt have to worry about working their day job, would be streatched so thin that we would soon be overwhealmed by the fire situation. The ensuing firestorm would in short order comsume the entirety of NYC. We would be shamed beyond belief, we would be the laughing stock of the world, and then the criminal negligence trials would begin.

The FDNY has over the years perfected fighting fire in their coverage area. Every piece of equipment, from the pumpers/ladders to the PPE is idealy suited to fighting fire in NYC.

The FDNY record for fighting fire in this environment is legendary.

Senario 2, Fighting fire in Rural Montana:

But, if they come out here to the great plains/badlands of Montana, I do belive my Voly department would have the upper hand. I dont know how many brush trucks the FDNY has, but I am reasonalby sure we are better prepared for the western wildland fire season then the FDNY is. I would like to see them take tower truck up a logging trail! Not gonna happen. Their black PPE and leather helmets, while cool, are NOT COOL! I shudder to imagine the touture of trying to chink in hotline on a running forest fire while whearing black PBI turnouts and 5 pounds of dead cow on your head. Pass the gatoraid! So, not only are their vehicles completely unsiuted to our fire evnvironment, their PPE is also very wrong. It may be possible for them to take their huge amount of manpower and hose, hook their pumper up to the nearest lake, and surround/drowned a large running MT wildfire, but that is an unproven tactic.

The PVFD has over the years perfected fighting fire in their district. Every piece of equipment, from vehicles to PPE, is completly focused and ideal for fighting fire in the PVFD fire district.

The PVFD record for fighting fire in this environement is legendary.

Conclusion

While one could argue either way in this PVFD Vs. FDNY discussion, I am going out on a limb and calling this one...

A DRAW!!! :D

I can not in good consious proclaim that my VFD is better then the FDNY. But, I can not in good concious concede that the FDNY is better then my VFD.

Hopefully that will lighten up everyones mood. Dont be to hard on the FDNY, and dont be hard on the podunk VFDs, they both have thier own uniqe problems to deal with.

And we are all human.

Except those damn robots in disguise.

[firemanpat29]

Samson you only forgot 1 thing,But its a big one.
When FDNY shows up in your town the pop DOUBLES !!!!
how will that affect your numbers? ;)

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by firemanpat29
Samson you only forgot 1 thing,But its a big one.
When FDNY shows up in your town the pop DOUBLES !!!!
how will that affect your numbers? ;)

That alone would more then qualify as a "Serious Incident"!!!

:eek: :D

We would have to call in the MT National Gaurds just to feed everybody!

[Bones42]

Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall. That about says it all. :cool:

[FFFRED]

Tiller,

Someone isn't kissing my rear??? You obviously have your own misconceptions about me and the FDNY in general. I'll defend my brothers if they are defamed, unlike you who will do everything to distance himself from every single one of them.

Having an argument because I disagree with the basis for your comments doesn't make me foolish in any way. It is clear with your attempts to change the subject to unrealated incidents such as Allan Baird or other Volly problems and topics that have nothing to do with the issue at hand that the source of your comments comes from some insecurity or deep bitterness you feel towards the FDNY.

If that isn't enough proof you said it yourself:
It is more of a "FDNY vs. the Rest of the Fire Service" aspect for me.

Some make clear and concise points about the relevant topic at hand...you bring up all sorts of references to volly problems in depts that no one(other than you) here has made mention of(at least in this thread).

If you think reading a newspaper article gives you the facts...place the DailyNews, Post, Times, etc. next to each other. Look at how the "facts" change signifigantly in many stories about the same incident they write about, not just FDNY or NYPD stories.

Do a search, I don't think you will find us on the front page of Firehouse.com ( I guess that is a tabloid media outlet too) unless it is referencing a significant (fire or EMS related) incident in our area.

The reason seems to escape you that your dept isn't on the cover of firehouse.com because you aren't the largest FD, you don't have a highly competitive media market(refering to the tabliod like papers of NYC not FH.com).

You resort to immature and disloyal comments or juvinile name calling and some riduculous diatribe that no one can't even begin to address:

Fyred Up, it's puzzle time.

Gimme a Two-word phrase that starts with "F" and ends with "U?"

Can be a verb or a noun. Insert it into your brain from me to you tough guy, and have a nice day. And end that with a "G.F.Y." (If you can figure that one out.
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If it makes me look bad or could possible implicate me, I will damn sure abandon them.
------------------------------------------------------------------
but risking your own butt to keep someone out of trouble is NOT WORTH IT!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Save yourself the energy in your fingers dude. Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall. I will be here until I get banned or you shut up or get angry and ignore me. I won't back down from my position on this issue. What are you gonna do about my opinion? Come down and beat me up?.....LOL (that would be pretty childish)

I'm glad you said it yourself "tough guy" :rolleyes:

Although I've never met a brick walls as so obvioulously jealous and bitter as you!

You first distance yourself from the PGFD then your own vol fire company! Wow..you are man of loyalty! Sampson understands it..how come you can't?(see below)

I'll say it again:

"Apparently you only know and understand the easy half of brotherhood...not the difficult half."

FTM-PTB

PS:
"A DRAW!!!

I can not in good consious proclaim that my VFD is better then the FDNY. But, I can not in good concious concede that the FDNY is better then my VFD."

SamsonFCDES,
Thats it, you've got it! Take pride in your dept no matter where you are. I stand by my brothers and you can stand by yours. Make your own traditions, and don't try to bring down others to make yourself feel better.

FTM-PTB

[PAVolunteer]

I did read what you typed and I STAND BEHIND what I wrote. You cannot bash another fire department, career or volunteer, while at the same time moaning and wailing pitifully when others do that to a volunteer fire department.
FyredUp ...

First - Please post where I bashed another FD.

Second - You clearly are not getting it. I am not moaning and wailing pitifully when others call out a volunteer fire department, BECAUSE I AGREE WITH THEM. What I am questioning is why the attitude changes when it's about the Fire Department of the City of New York.

Tiller ... to an extent, yes ... you just take that extent a whole lot further than I ever could ... :D

... and as for Jagr ... he was never truly a Capital ... he was just a Penguin in a Washington uniform ...:p

Stay Safe

[E229Lt]

I dont know how many brush trucks the FDNY has

We gotta bunch of these:

[EFD840]

What is that thing?

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by E229Lt


We gotta bunch of these:

Nice.

We have a bunch, er, I mean 1 of these.

http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Photos/Fire/M715/Boles516.gif

:cool:

[E229Lt]

Okay, we'll call it a draw:D

[SamsonFCDES]

And we also get some of these once in a while, but only if the Feds or States is paying for the drop.

http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/air3/lowtankr.jpg

That is a Tanker.

When we need water for our trucks, you dont call for a Tanker, or you will get one of those.

You call for a Tender.

:D

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by E229Lt
Okay, we'll call it a draw:D

First show me YOUR tanker!

:p

[SamsonFCDES]

Actualy I cant realy complain about our brush trucks. We are set up pretty well. The state DNRC gives up some support for brush trucks, and we have been very lucking in finding Fed brush trucks for cheap surplus prices. Thats how we came about our CAFS wildland heavy, it was a BLM wildfire unit we bought on surplus.

[E229Lt]

First show me YOUR tanker!

Does this count?

[E229Lt]

Oh, I forgot we sold this little 10,000 gpm beauty:

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by E229Lt


Does this count?

NOT FAIR!!!

We dont have a boat. :(

:D

Then again we dont have a body of water big enough for that thing to float on.

How much can it pump?

[firemanpat29]

All right LT now you are just showing off:D :D :D :D

[E229Lt]

You like big deck guns?

[Cellblock776]

EFD840 wrote: Forgetting all the tactical uses of portable extinguishers, has anyone down there looked at the ISO chart of required equipment for pumpers lately? They say you've got to have a water and dry chem. Nobody in our fire Department had ever taken a FF1 class until last summer. When 6 of us enrolled in the class one of the things we learned was about the requirement for portable extinguishers on the pumpers. The next meeting night we brought up the topic and the Chief, who has 20 years of volunteer FF experiance, says that we will not carry them. I mentioned the "we have 1000 gallons of water on each truck" mindset and that's the way it is in our department ISO or not. There's no point arguing and being on the Department Board was no use either since no matter what the Board decides the Chief has final say and can override any Board decisions at anytime.
:mad:

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by E229Lt
Oh, I forgot we sold this little 10,000 gpm beauty:

Well, we dont own or operate these with the PVFD, but we do get to see them on fires ocasionaly.

http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/heli10/haymanheavy.jpg

About 3500$ an hour for that sucker (no pun intended).

http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/dozer/canadadozer.jpg

Catepillar rocks! :cool:

[firemanpat29]

I remember reading about that one when I was a kid (25yrs ago)
isn't that the Super Pumper ?Didn't the cab and several other cabs
had BIG A$$ deck guns?????????????

[SamsonFCDES]

What about your back up? Do you have back up like this?

http://www.smokejumpers.com/image_gallery/MikeMcMillan/lineup4X6

http://www.smokejumpers.com/image_gallery/albums/MikeMcMillan/11a.jpg

Never mind.

With 12,000 fire fighters you probly dont need backup.

:cool:

[E229Lt]

I forgot one:

[SamsonFCDES]

Hmmmm, he seems a little high to be makeing a drop... :p

Nice tanker.

How much "wildland" do you have in your 320 square miles? You seem pretty well equiped for wildfire.

Is it even safe to use a tanker like that in your area? It seems that with 8 million people on the ground that if you dropped you would hit somebody for sure.

[E229Lt]

How much "wildland" do you have in your 320 square miles?

WHAT? You never heard of Central Park???

[Bones42]

Went on a cruise last July, got a nice send off via Marine 9...

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by E229Lt


WHAT? You never heard of Central Park???

Central what?

LOL, that is not a part...

This is a park!

http://www.nationalparkservices.org/images/glacier_map.gif

http://www.nps.gov/glac/images/072600a.jpg

:D

Actualy I have seen Central Park in movies. Seems nice, except for the muggers. :p

Are you serious that you have all that wildland fire equipment to fight fire in Central Park?

[E229Lt]

This was too easy!:rolleyes:

[E40FDNYL35]

:cool:

[NJFFSA16]

Hey...who do you think is listed on New Jersey's mutual aid plan for wildfires?

Why FDNY, of course. They love getting invited to the Pine Barrens.:D

Just kidding though....they'd get bored watching trees burn...LOL!

[E40FDNYL35]

Todt Hill (formerly Yserberg or "Iron Hill")
New York City Highest Point
410 Feet
Todt Hill Road & Ocean Terrace
Highest Point on Eastern Seaboard South of Maine

[FyredUp]

EFD840...

That brush truck that was posted as an FDNY brush truck was manufactured by Amertek a Canadian fire apparatus manufacturer. They were built for the US Army as a combination structural and crash truck for helicopter bases. They have a 1000 gpm pump and I think a 600 gallon tank. They carry class B foam and are capable of pump and roll in the crash mose through a roof and bumper turret. When used as a structural pumper there is a top mount pump panel that is used.

A volly FD near me uses one of these as its first out rig for brush and rural fires.

Amertek also built a crash truck for the US Air Force similar to the Oshkosh P-19. Unfortunately Amewrtek is no longer in business.

By the way, I used to be a crash fire rescue firefighter for the Air National Guard and that is why I know this stuff.

FyredUp

[APROMISEKEPT]

Hate to bring this one back to the top, but a few questions were directed my way.

FireLt1951 "Ah, to live in an ideal world must be absolutely fantastic."

It's far from ideal, but it is balanced, fair and loaded with some of the most dignified individuals to ever walk the planet. Yep, it's pretty fantastic.

Tillerman "Thanks for the post. What's the point?"

The point was to end yet another negative thread about the FDNY on a positive note. The point was to see if folks would celebrate their successes as quickly as they judge their PERCEIVED failures. However, since Cellblock received valuable info about equipment requirements from EFD840, I think I made my point, and then some.

"These are The Report from Engine Co 82 guys. The guys everyone put on a pedestal after 9/11."

Actually, these are The Report from Ground Zero guys. Their fathers were The Report from Engine Co 82 guys. Take it from me, they didn't ask to be put on anyone's pedestal. (I'm guessing most would like to tell everyone exactly what they can do with their pedestal). Nope, they didn't ask for it, don't want it and would glady hand it off to you or any of the other young bloods running around the Expos in their FDNY gear.

Anymore questions? If so, I'll try to be more timely with my next response.

[E229Lt]

All that work, down the drain. Anyone wanna see our submarine?:D

[FFFRED]

SamsonFCDES,

Actually I don't think there are any Brush rigs in Manhattan, Pretty sure Central Park will be OK :D

However we do have a number of them in Staten Island, Queens, Brooklyn and even the Bronx for the outer edges of the city have plenty of marshes, fields and parks. There is one in the firehouse two blocks from my aparment in Brooklyn. Most parts of Staten Island aren't that different from Jersey or any other place.

FTM-PTB

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Driving through the streets of Brooklyn.:cool:

[EFD840]

Thanks for the info FyredUp!

[hfd66truck]

Originally posted by APROMISEKEPT
Hate to bring this one back to the top, but a few questions were directed my way.

FireLt1951

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ah, to live in an ideal world must be absolutely fantastic."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's far from ideal, but it is balanced, fair and loaded with some of the most dignified individuals to ever walk the planet. Yep, it's pretty fantastic.



Promisekept....I'll vouch for the good Lt from Motorcity..I think he was talking to the other guy....

Dave

[FyredUp]

The American Fire Service:

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

You suck because you are volly, no wait your suck cause you are paid, no wait I'm paid but you suck because you are big city, no wait I'm big city so you suck because you are small town, you suck cause you don't wear leather, you suck cause you don't wear tactical tupperware, you suck because your trucks are yellow, or red, or purple or white or orange or whatever and so on and so on and so on into eternity.

What a bunch of time wasting BS.

Let's talk about something worthwhile like smooth bores versus automatics versus low pressure combination nozzles!!!

FyredUp

[TillerMan25]

APROMISEKEPT,

Thanks for the response. Point taken.

[APROMISEKEPT]

"Promisekept...I'll vouch for the good Lt. from Motorcity...I think he was talking to the other guy..."

Apologies Lt.

Thanks for the clarification HFD66Truck

Be safe.

[FireLt1951]

The remark was directed at individuals who seem to live in glass houses, yet choose to throw stones. The FDNY will take care of it's own problems, as it should be.

[denniefernand]

Fifteen firefighters and three officers from three Brooklyn firehouses are placed on modified duty while department investigates whether they were drinking in firehouses; after spot checks turned up empty or open beer cans, all personnel present were subjected to blood alcohol tests
------------------------
dennie

Alcoholism Treatment (http://www.alcoholismtreatment.info)

[ECCMac]

Fifteen firefighters and three officers from three Brooklyn firehouses are placed on modified duty while department investigates whether they were drinking in firehouses; after spot checks turned up empty or open beer cans, all personnel present were subjected to blood alcohol tests
------------------------
dennie

Alcoholism Treatment (http://www.alcoholismtreatment.info)

Nice first post...and dredging up a thread from 2004...:rolleyes:

[BLSboy]

So much for innocent until proven guilty....:rolleyes:

[CaptainGonzo]

Fifteen firefighters and three officers from three Brooklyn firehouses are placed on modified duty while department investigates whether they were drinking in firehouses; after spot checks turned up empty or open beer cans, all personnel present were subjected to blood alcohol tests
------------------------
dennie

Alcoholism Treatment (http://www.alcoholismtreatment.info)

Wow.. dragging up a 4 year old thread as if it happened yesterday...

what a putz.