City Sues Fire Truck Manufacturer

[CollegeBuff]

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0107/2748380_200X150.jpg

EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- The city of East Providence is suing the builder of its five new fire trucks.

The city says the trucks, which cost $2.5 million, were out of service for 224 days between September 2002 and August 2003. Officials said the fire trucks had electrical problems, generator problems, pump problems and fuel leaks.

The city is suing the manufacturer, KME, of Pennsylvania, for new equipment and monetary damages.


Acting City Manager William Conley Jr. told News Channel 10 that more than once, more than one truck has been out of service, which puts a strain on the Fire Department's resources and puts public safety at risk. But Conley said there have been no specific incidents where safety was compromised.

The firefighters' union, which opposed the purchase of the trucks last year, did not want to comment on the problems, but it supports what the city administration is doing.

"They're very sensitive to the needs of the city residents and firefighters' safety in doing our job," union President Oscar Elmasian said.

KME's attorney told News Channel 10 the company has been addressing the problems with the fire trucks, but he said he would not comment any further until he sees the lawsuit.
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East Providence purchased 2 75' quints designated as engine companies 2 and 3, 2 100' quints designated as ladder companies 1 and 2, and 1 pump-and-roll foam engine assigned to Engine 4. Engines 1 and 5 were not replaced and are standard Class A engines.

As were the apparatus they replaced (2 engines and 2 ladders) the engine-quints are staffed with 3 and the ladder-quints with 2 (all other engines are also staffed with 3). Total apparatus for the department is 5 engines, 2 ladders, 3 rescues, one cross-staffed heavy rescue out of 4 stations.

[Bones42]

KME - Keep Mechanics Employed. :D

[k1500chevy97]

Originally posted by Bones42
KME - Keep Mechanics Employed. :D

Ditto .
After hearing and seeing all the problems that a town about 8 miles from us has with their KME engine we decided not to send a bid invite to kme for our quint or our new engine .

The town close to us with the kme was the first in the county to get one and will without a doubt be the last

[bobsnyder]

If they'd just asked me, I could have saved them the trouble...

Put a requirement for ISO 2001 manufacturing certification and independent performance testing (e.g. UL, etc.) in your specs and you'll eliminate all but the "cream of the crop" in apparatus manufacturers. The only two I know of that can meet this are Pierce & E-One. There could be others, but not KME.

[ff7134]

Boy you guys love bashing KME. We have one that will be a year old next month and not one ounce of trouble. But two neighboring departments have and E-One and a Pierce....guess what FREAKING Junk. The Pierce is less than 2 mos old, Monday--would not flow foam, popped out of pump gear, and for some reason the rear scene lights don't work???? The E-One has been down to FL once already for a unkown problem and numerous electrical problems.

Guess what every company is going to turn out a bad truck....Crap happens. So before you start bashing a company....better find out about every truck they make and see if it has had any problems.

[ff7134]

P.S.

The KME we have had no problem flowing FOAM that night:D

[Bones42]

better find out about every truck they make and see if it has had any problems A little impractical. I (and I'm sure others) can only base our opinions on the ones that we have had to deal with.

I'll agree, all companies will make a "lemon" or two. Most companies tend to make less lemons than good trucks, otherwise they won't be companies long.

I know of people who swear by them, I know of people who swear at them. Other than in parades, I've only come across 6 or 7 KME's personally, 3 that were going back for various problems multiple times, 1 was getting towed away on a low boy (it had been brought to us for a demo as it was only a month old). The others were Ok. That's what 4 out of 7? I realize KME makes a lot more than 7 trucks, but that's all I have to base my opinion on.

[RoofHook63]

Our newest engine being delivered in March is a KME. One of our neighboring companies in the past 11 years has received delivery of 3 KMEs with no problems. After a visit to the KME plant in Pennsylvania, I was quite impressed with the "hands on" type of manufacturing they do, no modern assembly line or robots. The cabs are placed in dollys and wheeled to each section where it is contructed (frame, hardware, fabric, electric, etc.) I was quite impressed with the quality of the work which is done by an army of hard workers.

Well, we'll see in March how our engine works out. It should be noted though (and not to start any "my manufacturer is better than yours" battles) our Pierce engine has done nothing but leak in the past 5 years and was recently almost burned to the ground after I discovered a melting flasher unit, which unfortunately wasn't even the orgin of the countless light on the truck that seem to work when they want to. As recent as last night the cable for the primer snapped.

I think what it all comes down to is maintenance, inspection, use of the apparatus and even human error from the factory. Apparatus are complex machines that are still built by humans and more times than not, we push them to their limit which may be the reason we have these problems down the road.

[ChiefReason]

I guess that's what happens when a company is more concerned about satisfying a sales quota instead of satisfying the customer.
Hurrying the process will cause things to get missed. Shortcuts will be taken and all because a commitment to delivery date wasn't kept.
I find myself telling our truck manufacturer "I don't care how long it takes; I just want it to be right when it's delivered."
That; and you don't pay them until you're satisfied that the truck will perform to specifications.
And I'm not saying that East Providence didn't exercise due diligence. You get the wrong salesperson and they can jerk you around for what seems like an eternity.
KME has got to be feeling the sting from the bad publicity. It certainly won't help them sell trucks.
Hope this gets settled to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.
CR

[Duffman]

I would have guessed E-One!

[CALFFBOU]

Wow...i have heard more good than bad about
KME. I guess every manuf. is going to crank
out a bad unit from time to time.

LA County, CA seems to have a LOT of these
rigs and I havent heard any negative feedback
yet. BUT, my friend in San Bernardino County, CA
does use that term of "Keep Mechanics Employeed."

I wouldnt be so quick to bash them. But, I have
heard about alot of problems from E-One. A lot
of departments in Orange County were very BIG
on them, then left for other makes.

[Weruj1]

and here I thought the Northwood boys were makin waves ...........

[RedBank24]

Our first line trucks in my County are either KME, FMC, or E-One...with the vast majority being KME. There might be one or two KME's that are "problem children"...but the vast majority of our troublesome trucks are the handful of E-Ones....including the dog at my station.

Funny thing is...the FMC's are the oldest frontline units....and they are the least amount of trouble. Wish they wouldn't have went out of the fire truck business.

[sconfire]

We have 5 KME's in our fleet of 11 engines. We have had our share of issues with them... but all in all they are a nice rig. Our Engine 2
http://www.ncfd.org/E2.jpg

We have a few E-Ones that have nothing BUT electrical issues with them. Our Engine 6
http://www.ncfd.org/E6.jpg

Now we are buying American LaFrance. This is because their new manufacturing facility is in our city limits. We are slated to receive a new heavy rescue next week, a new platform truck in 2 months, a new engine in June and a new ladder truck and 65' quint the first of 2005.

Now one of our engines is the best around. Our Engine 7
http://www.ncfd.org/E7.jpg

Just kidding... this is my rig so I am a bit biased! :)

Sincerely,
Grant Mishoe, Captain
North Charleston Fire Department
Engine Company 7

[k1500chevy97]

someone brought up FMC and oh boy those rigs are tough as nails .
At our station we have an 88 (or is it an 87) well anyway its on a ford 8000 chassis with a 1000 gpm and 750 tank and damn its a great rig I have had no problems with it in my 4 1/2 yrs on the dept and the senior guys say that nothing has gone wrong with it since it has been in service and has only been out of service for routine stuff .

the older rigs seem to hold up much better IMO our Vanpelts and other FMCs are nearly flawless Like the poster above too bad they dont make em anymore .
Many towns here in the area still have old vanpelts and fmcs as frontline units very tough .

http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/fireapparatuspicture/small/1_DSC00008.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/fireapparatuspicture/small/DSC00041.JPG


FMC and VanPelt

http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/fireapparatuspicture/websize/IM001010.JPG

[k1500chevy97]

double post sorry:(

[ff7134]

I totally agree that the older truck are better for reliability. We have a '79 American LaFrance as our First Due Engine at Station 1, other than routine maintenance it has been out once....for a Refurb. I'll be sorry to see her go in 2009.

[NCRSQ751]

Seems like any manufacturer can have a piece of garbage. We have a Pierce that is good for a really big doorstop and that's about it. It has a nice habit of just cutting off while you're pumping...or just sitting there...or whatever. We've been fortunate in that it's never done that while we had people inside a fire..but it's been close.

The dozen or so times they've come out they've replaced all sorts of things..always sure it's the problem...yeah right. It hasn't done that trick in a while..but it's been out of service twice in the last couple of weeks for yet other problems. I've never seen any fire truck out of service for the amount of time this POS has - and it's only a couple of years old.

In my opinion Pierce should drop the r and add a few words...

So let's not just pick on KME...they're in good company.

[firenresq77]

So, what do some of the guys from KME have to say about this?? I know there are a few who read these forums. When I posted before about issues that we had with our Mini-Pumper (which by the way was all correct information and nothing was exaggerated) my Chief got questioned about it at the KME factory when he went to pick it up after getting multiple problems fixed by them. He got pretty mad about it there because they blew everything out of proportion. After he and the other guys got back with the truck, the one showed him my post and he wasn't mad anymore because he saw that they exaggerated everything. He just said he wished he had known about it ahead of time.

Anyhow, KME guys, got anything?

[Rescue101]

Hehe FMC,Farm Mechanics Companion.Yeah,for a bunch of old haybaler components they worked pretty good.The other Dept. I work for still has one in active service.T.C.

[firemanhfd]

we have a ward lafrance engine, spartan/sulsbury (pre e-one), annd a rand new spartan/4guys all are great we have minor problems but most can be fixed in house. 4guys is one to look into they worked well with our truck commitee and changed things as needed. our sulsbury and 4guys look the same but with the 4guys they helped us use alot of free space to give us more room and delivered the truck almost a month early.

[BVFD1983]

The firefighters' union, which opposed the purchase of the trucks last year, did not want to comment on the problems, but it supports what the city administration is doing.

Yet another reason why the fire department and its union should decide what trucks to purchase, not city officials.

[neiowa]

If they'd just asked me, I could have saved them the trouble...

Put a requirement for ISO 2001 manufacturing certification and independent performance testing (e.g. UL, etc.) in your specs and you'll eliminate all but the "cream of the crop" in apparatus manufacturers. The only two I know of that can meet this are Pierce & E-One. There could be others, but not KME.

Oh PLEASE. ISO certification is an early 1990s consultant's fad. Nothing more than a HUGE paperwork exercise. A screening game with as much relevance in selecting vendors as resumes are in hiring (an HR subsubitute for judgement). ISO reg is very very expensive to be sure, so you're no doubt correct that only a couple apparatus bothering to waste time on undertaking. ISO was/is just one more in the parade of fads in the business/engineering world.

[Ledebuhr1]

With KME's reputation I am still wondering why departments still give them business. Wouldent word get out that they are lousy, like on this website, and then no one would deal with them. I know many of you will say they only get bids because they are low bid, but that cant be the only reason. Many times low bid doesnt get the job.

[confire]

Well, this thread is now two years old, what was the outcome of the law suit?

[Yankee750]

we have a ward lafrance engine, spartan/sulsbury (pre e-one), annd a rand new spartan/4guys all are great we have minor problems but most can be fixed in house. 4guys is one to look into they worked well with our truck commitee and changed things as needed. our sulsbury and 4guys look the same but with the 4guys they helped us use alot of free space to give us more room and delivered the truck almost a month early.

Keep an eye on your 4Guys. We have one from 99' that has been nothing but a headache from delivery. We had chassis and body problems. The doors on the body don't close flush anymore. The door pans or lack there are so thin that the doors bow out or in. Usually opposite across from each other. The two side compartment doors at the rear don't like to stay latched. The local rep has been less than helpful to say the least. Basically just poor quality all the way around.