Car Dealership Freezes Pump

[firenresq77]

Well, our brand new F-550 Mini-Pumper (we got it in June 2003) was having some steering problems, so yesterday we took it to a local Ford dealership to have it looked at. They couldn't duplicate the problem, so around 1330 we had someone go show them what the problem was. Now, when we dropped it off yesterday morning, they were told about the battery disconnect switch (because the last time it was in there, they left the batteries on and neighbors were complaining about the low voltage alarm going off) and were told not to leave it outside. Well, they didn't listen and left it out all night. The windchill last night was around -10 degrees F. So this morning they called the station to say they had a problem with the truck. They said nobody told them there was water in the Firetruck (who would've thought there would be water in a fire truck) and that a "plug" had shot 150' across their parking lot. The chief went right over and discovered that this "plug" was the valve for the 5" Stortz off the driver's side pump panel. But "it wasn't their fault because we didn't tell them there was water in it". It will be very interesting to see what happens.

On a side note, this is the same dealership we had problems with before. A year or two ago when the PD got new cruisers, they got them from these same people and traded in our Chief's car and another crown vic used for general purposes. Well, one of their porters wanted the old Chiefs car, and the dealership said they would remove all of the decals. One night, while at my full-time job as a dispatcher, I heard the neighboring FD dispatchers (who are right next to me in the building) talking about my city. When I asked them what was going on, they said that they had a complaint of one of their vehicles driving through the neighborhood trying to pick up some girls and saying they had some Marijuana. So this FD sent one of their crews out to check only to find out it was a car from my city. So I had the dispatch Lt. ask the crews what color car and descriptions of the occupants. Well, then I remembered that we had got a new Chief's car and I asked if it had a lightbar on it and they said no, so I knew it was the one we traded in. Well, I had to call the Chief at home and fill him in and, needless to say, he wasn't happy. Nothing ever came out of that. I guess this was strike two against them. If I had my way, there wouldn't be a CHANCE to have a strike three.

[Weruj1]

DING ..........FRIES ARE DONE !!!!!!!!!!!

[FyredUp]

Plain and simple it goes like this:

1) Against your orders they left a firetruck outside "and were told not to leave it outside. Well, they didn't listen and left it out all night"

2) Temperatures were below freezing and damaged the pump. Perhaps destroying it.

3) Time to stright out say you broke it you fix it or we are going to the lawyers.

I do have to ask a pretty blunt question though. If this dealership has a history of being such complete dumb a$$es why does your city keep going back to them? Are they the only Ford dealer in the area? If so I would go right up the complaint ladder to corporate and complain load and long until they took care of the problem. Your city obviously has history with Ford and the bad blood this will incurr may cause corporate to act where your local knot heads won't without legal action.

I would as soon as this is taken care of sever ties with that dealer permanently.

FyredUp

[PFD109NFD107]

DING ..........FRIES ARE DONE !!!!!!!!!!!


What a classic!!!

[firenresq77]

I do have to ask a pretty blunt question though. If this dealership has a history of being such complete dumb a$$es why does your city keep going back to them? Are they the only Ford dealer in the area? If so I would go right up the complaint ladder to corporate and complain load and long until they took care of the problem. Your city obviously has history with Ford and the bad blood this will incurr may cause corporate to act where your local knot heads won't without legal action.

I know what you are saying. I guess the higher ups thought that after the inciddent witht the Chief's car, that they had taken care of the problem. This has brought new light to the subject with them and I have no clue what's going to happen. I know that it has already been passed above the chief and it is being handled. Unknown to what extent at this time.

[Weruj1]

I thought it was aprapoe ..............I see some people just didnt like my humor :(

[engine1321]

...I work at Burger King making whoppers with a paper hat...

Would you like an apple pie with that?

[PFD109NFD107]

Originally posted by Weruj1
I thought it was aprapoe ..............I see some people just didnt like my humor :(

What's there not to like!!!

[Weruj1]

I notice that '77 did not respond..................and thanks for playing E1321 !

[NFD159]

Wait for the bell. Where is the bell? Can't here the bell. :D

[PFD109NFD107]

159,

We went over to see it today...... Wow, were we impressed.


Ding!

[NFD159]

Guess this will be tied in the courts for a while. Did the tank crack or rupture also?

[PFD109NFD107]

It didn't look like it. It was about 1630, the truck was parked inside and there was still a BIG chunk of ice sticking out.

[CaptainGonzo]

Not to play devil's advocate here, but...

1. Why didn't your personnel empty the tank and drain the pump prior to taking it to the dealership?

2. Why didn't anyone from your FD go to the dealership just before closing time and verify that the rig was secured inside of the building?

3. The windchill factor has no effect on inanimate objects.

[WTFD10]

"Don't bob for fries in hot vat
it really hurts bad
and so do skin grafts"

Josh, thanks for the laugh. I was LMAO and the wife just looked at me like I was nuts when I explained it to her.

Seriously though, to the Northwood guys,aside from the fact that these Yo-Yos damaged the truck, you guys seem to have had alot of problems with this rig. Does Ohio's "Lemon Law" apply to fire apparatus? Maybe you can send it back and get it mounted on a GMC chassis...

[NFD159]

. Why didn't your personnel empty the tank and drain the pump prior to taking it to the dealership?

. Why didn't anyone from your FD go to the dealership just before closing time and verify that the rig was secured inside of the building?

. The windchill factor has no effect on inanimate objects.


Regardless of windchill, ambient temp was about 12 degrees.

I kind of thought the same thing when I first heard what happened but after talking to some of the guys, The dealer did not know if they would have the truck overnight, and they were told if they did, not to leave it outside.

As far as going to check, maybe we should have, but after telling them specifically not to leave it outside, you'd think that should have been sufficient.

[hwoods]

Originally posted by engine1321
...I work at Burger King making whoppers with a paper hat...


I've never seen whoppers with a paper hat....... :p :p

[PFD109NFD107]

http://load.pquinn.com/binaries/fries/


ding.... here are your fries....:p

[firenresq77]

Not to play devil's advocate here, but...

1. Why didn't your personnel empty the tank and drain the pump prior to taking it to the dealership?

2. Why didn't anyone from your FD go to the dealership just before closing time and verify that the rig was secured inside of the building?

3. The windchill factor has no effect on inanimate objects.

As 159 said, it wasn't expected to be there overnight. We expected it to get dropped off, repaired, and back to us later that day. We shouldn't have to go check up on them to see if they parked it inside or not. They were told not to leave it out. And the windchill was just a reference. It was still well below freezing.

Seriously though, to the Northwood guys,aside from the fact that these Yo-Yos damaged the truck, you guys seem to have had alot of problems with this rig. Does Ohio's "Lemon Law" apply to fire apparatus? Maybe you can send it back and get it mounted on a GMC chassis...

Yes, we have had quite a few problems with this truck, but so far they have all been fixed by the manufacturer. Aside from probably 1500+ extra miles on the truck and not having it for a few months, it has cost us $0.00. I don't believe the Lemon Law would apply to this because it is not a stock vehicle. I think once KME made the modifications to the chasis it can no longer be eligible for the lemon laws. I believe I heard that from somewhere before, so I may be wrong.

And yes I saw your "Ding, Fries are done"

The only thing I have to say to that is


MY NAME'S DONNY

[Weruj1]

ROFLMMFAO !!!!!!!

[historyjunkie]

Damn, and I was planning a big bobbing for freedom fries in deep fry vats party...

Ha ha ha... That BK song is hilarious!


Wouldn't it be easier for the garage to work on it if it's empty? Much more light... Easier to jack up... Besides, if there is even a slight chance that the vehicle will be sitting for an extended period in temperature below the freezing point of water, while not in use; should you #1 drain the PUMP. #2 Leave that drain open. and #3 if it's out of service... Drain the tank and leave the master drain open... Makes sense to me, then again maybe it's just me...

[ffsmromstadt13]

A couple of comments, first off the truck was being taken for a steering problem. What is causing the problem? We don't know, so lets take all equipment off and drain the tank so that when it gets over to the dealer they can't find the problem(normal). So we leave all equipment and water on vehicle, they still can't find the problem and we have to go back to tell and show them again. If at that point they wanted the water drained, or the equipment off maybe they should have said something then. Plus they were told to keep it inside when it was dropped off, due to the fact that they left it out when the steering box(something)had to be replaced. They were told about the problems of leaving the batteries on and leaving the vehicle outside and not to let it happen again. They don't listen or just don't care.


The Ford dealer is clueless I took the phone call from the dealer in the morning. The monkey on the phone told me that "know one told them the truck had water on it." " and a plug flew of the side of the truck and flew 150 feet." This plug was the 5-inch stortz fitting. WOW!! I wish this was on video what a site.

DING FRIES ARE OVER COOKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EFD840]

Originally posted by ffsmromstadt13
They don't listen or just don't care.


I bet they care when they find out how much that pump they just bought costs. Also, if it blew out the 5" connection, what did it do to all the smaller discharge plumbing?

Since they were told not to leave it outside, I don't see how they can possibly avoid being held responsible.

I wouldn't stop at the dealership. I would also make sure Ford and KME knew about your history with these folks.

[Bones42]

"They were told not to leave it outside." - Got that in writing? No, your word vs theirs. And it's not their normal practice to put all vehicles inside at night.

"They did not know there was water in it." - They are not FF's and will claim to not be fire truck experts. John Q Public does not always know what we know about firetrucks and they were not explicitly told (in writing) about it.


Been through a "kind of" similar problem with an ambulance and a repair shop...we lost. :(

Better luck to you...

[ciffret]

The dealership personel needs to listen to what you told them. Any caring dealership would make taking care of an emergency vehicle a priority. In my small town the dealership would see that the truck was secured before closing for the day.
The bottom line is someone at the dealership did not care.Responsibility is always someone elses problem not mine. How many times have you heard that? The customers needs is what makes their business

IACOJ(ret)

[ffsmromstadt13]

Just so everyone (and JOHN Q) knows BIG RED FIRE TRUCKS have water on them!!!!!!! Also John Q pulls over for RED LIGHTS.

This is not the first time it has been at the dealer. It has been there for other problems. The dealer called before and asked us to come over and drain the tank because they could not get it up on their lift.

And NO "pull the truck inside is not in wrtiting."

This truck is a 2003 we have had it in service for just over 6 months and it has been to the KME dealer and many more shops for various problems.

FOR SALE SLIGHTLY USED FIRE TRUCK!!!!!!!!!!

[ff7134]

We had only one problem similar....except some equipment got stolen after they were told that thier is no way to lock the rollup doors. A few calls to a customer service number from our Chief...and now they always put our truck in side if its staying overnight.


We had a Chainsaw, a toolbox full of tools and some box lights stolen.

[Dalmatian90]

It's not your lawyers job at this point.

You've incurred a loss, you file an insurance claim.

It's your insurance company's lawyers job to recover from the dealership. My guess is replacing a pump, etc on a truck is going to run a significant percentage of the replacement cost of the truck -- let's see, step one: remove body. step two: remove cracked pump housing...labor is gonna be racking up quick on this one.

1) Is it reasonable to leave water in a truck? For steering, handling, performance issues, etc yes.

2) Do fire apparatus normally have special handling instructions? I know we make sure, especially when dealing with any shop we haven't in the past, that they agree to park the vehicle inside at night not only for water but for miscellanoues tools & equipment that might be left on board. Don't want to come back and find someone cut the wires then unbolted the generator mounted in the truck overnight...

3) Draining is difficult. Without using air to blow out the lines, you're more prone to freezing the small amounts left hither and thither and in the sump of the tank. The mass of a full tank & pump usually resists freezing better during the day. Safest to leave it full, and park it inside...

[ThNozzleman]

1. Why didn't your personnel empty the tank and drain the pump prior to taking it to the dealership?
We ALWAYS drain the pump and discharges...don't trust an auto dealership to do ANYTHING. (I used to work for one.)

3) Draining is difficult. Without using air to blow out the lines, you're more prone to freezing the small amounts left hither and thither and in the sump of the tank. The mass of a full tank & pump usually resists freezing better during the day. Safest to leave it full, and park it inside...
While this is true, I think you are less likely to have severe damage done to a pump by draining the majority of the water out, including ALL the drains, as the ice would have more room to expand. The condition you describe is important, however, as you run the risk of freezing up individual discharges, or greatly diminishing their output capacity, when the smaller amount of undrained water freezes quickly.

[KyleWickman]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/freakinfries.html[/URL]

Speaking of French Fries.

After reading this post and another one, KME scares me. Then again they ALL have problems.

[Weruj1]

thanks Kyle ..........another funny !

[historyjunkie]

We have two KME units. A pumper-tanker, and a pumper-rescue. Never have any major problems w/ them other than wear & tear. Those pull out steps that are mounted behind the rear wheels like to get ripped off at driveways. Never had any pump problems, maybe some calcium build-up leaks. Had one driver complain that the tank kept leaking empty before he could get to the fire. Turn out he kept hitting the switch for the auto dump valves... Pump probs would be the fault of the mfg of that pump. I do believe that KME only builds the body of the trucks. Plan on buying a KME Urban-Interface truck w/ our USFA grant... You can only drive them big trucks in the creek so many times before the tow truck people notice a pattern...

[firenresq77]

Well, we picked the truck up from the dealership yesterday. They said the steering problem is better than it was, but is still not fixed. They said they have a call into Ford to try to find out more info.

As far as damage from the frozen pump, well, it doesn't look pretty.

The 5" Stortz valve looks OK on the outside, but the valve will not open. The ring the threads it onto the discharge from the pump broke from the pressure. There is also 1 valve that has a nice crack in it, and also the bottom of the pump casing is split halfway around it. That was also that we saw, but we didn't look too thouroughly over it.

I guess we are filing a claim with the insurance company and they will handle it from there. I believe the truck is going to Cleveland on Monday to a Detroit Diesel facility that has the NFPA test pit ???. That is who KME recommended to take the truck to, as they had also spoke to their Hale rep.

[Weruj1]

what freakin mess fellas................you cant win for loosing, does that mean you stll gotta hang @ #2's ?

[firenresq77]

Oh yes. Still hangin at 2's. Regardless of what we are running out of during the day, we will be at Station 2 unless we are busy with our duties.

[Rescue101]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
Not to play devil's advocate here, but...

1. Why didn't your personnel empty the tank and drain the pump prior to taking it to the dealership?

2. Why didn't anyone from your FD go to the dealership just before closing time and verify that the rig was secured inside of the building?

3. The windchill factor has no effect on inanimate objects. Hey Gonzo,If you think wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects why don't you step outside about 5 tomorrow morning and get inanimate for about an hour.TC bets after 59 min. you'll either be looking for an Infared tube or a Dunkin Donuts.He he thanks for the laff,I'll probably be in the deep freeze for the next week.Whaatt?My dealer told me you didn't have to do a tune up for 1000,000 miles.Or an oil change either.T.C.:D :p

[CaptainGonzo]

I'll be taking the dogs for a "squat and squirt" around 6:30 AM...and make the coffee Starbucks instead! ;) :D

[Engine2WhgFire]

Got to agree with Capt Gonzo and TheNozzleman here.

Laymen aren't always very educated in fire apparatus mantainence.

Trusting a car dealer to care for Fire Apparatus is like trusting a child molester to work in a Daycare nursery.

If you knew there was a risk of freezing you should have drained the pump.

As far as wind chill goes, it doesnt make the temp of the pump any lower than ambient temperature so gonzo is right there also. {15} degrees with a -5 wind chill is still {15} degrees no matter how you slice it.

[firenresq77]

Trusting a car dealer to care for Fire Apparatus is like trusting a child molester to work in a Daycare nursery.

You are comparing apples to coffee tables hear, pal. These things are not even CLOSE to being similar. Car dealers can and do care for Fire Apparatus when the apparatus has a chassis that is a commercial chassis, and it is under warranty by the chassis manufacturer and the dealership sells/repairs vehicles by that manufacturer. What the hell does a child molester and a daycare have to do with it??????? By the way, is your name Donny?




If you knew there was a risk of freezing you should have drained the pump.

Once again, there were no thoughts about freezing because THE DEALERSHIP WAS TOLD NOT TO LEAVE THE VEHICLE OUTSIDE WHEN IT WAS DROPPED OFF. ALSO, THERE WAS NO INDICATION THAT IT WOULD BE LEFT OVERNIGHT. Does that clear it up for you, since it's already been said before?

As far as wind chill goes, it doesnt make the temp of the pump any lower than ambient temperature so gonzo is right there also. {15} degrees with a -5 wind chill is still {15} degrees no matter how you slice it.

Once again, if you read all of the posts in this thread (which apparently you didn't), you would have read that the windchill was used as a reference. It was around 10-15 degrees Farenheit that night, which is well below freezing.

And no, the windchill does not directly affect it, but it does come into play. I know that if I park my car inside of my unheated, uninsulated, drafty garage, it is still much easier to start and will not freeze up like it would if I parked it outside.

It's pretty funny that when another dealership was called and asked the question about where they would park a fire truck if they had to keep the vehicle overnight, they said they would park it inside, because it is a fire truck and it has water and other equipment on it.

Bottom line is that no emergency vehicle, whether it is a firetruck, police car, ambulance, whatever, should be left outside a repair facility. They need to be parked inside, so if it does have to remain there overnight, nobody will have access to it and all of the equipment in it. I know we haven't had a problem with any of our vehicles being left outside of any of the repair facilities they have been to before.

[ffsmromstadt13]

B.... You are talking to John Q firefighter who does not understand or does not know how to read!!!!!!!!!

THE REASON THE TRUCK WAS SENT TO THE DEALER WITH THE D*** WATER ON IT WAS BECAUSE THIER WAS A STEERING PROBLEM!!! THE TRUCK NEEDED TO BE LOADED (WIEGHTED) SO THE PROBLEM COULD BE AJUSTED OR FIXED. JUST SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRUCK AND A PROBLEM IN ITS DAY-TO-DAY OPERATIONS. SO IT NEEDED TO BE SENT THAT WAY TO THE DEALER DO YOU UNDERSTAND???????????????? THIS MEANS WATER, TOOLS, EQUIPMENT, AND ETC. THIS HAS ALLREADY BE ADDRESSED IN THIS POST DONNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Weruj1]

easy Lou.................no need to get the pressure up ................just state the deal ............Got Woj ?

[Dalmatian90]

Yes and no on the windchill...

When does your furnace run longer & harder to keep your house warm:
When it's 20 degrees and calm outside
or
When it's 20 degrees and a 20mph wind outside?

The wind will cool off things faster, even though they won't "feel" it being colder like skin does.

Similiarly, front mount pumps are more vulnerable to freezing than midships since they're more exposed to wind going down the road. (We used to keep old bunker coats wrapped around our last front mount until we bought a canvas cover).

[stm4710]

Just another reason you should buy GM products...................:p

I think even if they knew better just a friendly " hey keep it warm" would have worked. Then again they didnt show much "crainial power" putting a truck on lift and not draining the water. I have worked on a few cars on a lift and you usally want to make them as light as possible.........just my own opinion though.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by stm4710
Just another reason you should buy GM products...................:p

I think even if they knew better just a friendly " hey keep it warm" would have worked. Then again they didnt show much "crainial power" putting a truck on lift and not draining the water. I have worked on a few cars on a lift and you usally want to make them as light as possible.........just my own opinion though.

Once again, for those who don't read all of the posts........

THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO LEAVE IT OUTSIDE BY THE ASSISTANT CHIEF AND ANOTHER FIREFIGHTER WHEN THE VEHICLE WAS DROPPED OFF!!

They COULDN'T lift the truck with the water on it. That's why they called us to come drain the tank (which was the first time it went to that dealer)

And by the way, GM, at the time, did not make a vehicle with a GVW of 19,000 lbs. like Ford did. I still don't think GMs have a GVW quite that high.

[Rescue101]

What you wanna bet someones cranial inversion at the dealership is gonna get adjusted once they find out what that little f**kup just cost them.Would have been much easier to get on the techline early.As far as the windchil on inanimate objects,it DOES have an effect.We do more road service on a cold ,WINDY day than we do on a cold day with no wind (Temps being equal).C.:p

[firenresq77]

What you wanna bet someones cranial inversion at the dealership is gonna get adjusted once they find out what that little f**kup just cost them.

I bet it will too. I believe that's what happened after the first incident there with our chief's car

[bfcf623]

We do not have a dept. shop so everything is farmed out and we have have been burned on several occasions with frozen valves and gauges. I learned the best thing to do is drain the water tank and pump (when needed) before you leave it on their lot. When you go to pick up the truck fill it with water (if applicable) and make sure everything works before you drive it away.

[firenresq77]

we have have been burned on several occasions with frozen valves and gauges. I learned the best thing to do is drain the water tank and pump (when needed) before you leave it on their lot. When you go to pick up the truck fill it with water (if applicable) and make sure everything works before you drive it away.

And that may be fine for certain problems, but you can't do that for everything. Many problems need the truck to be fully loaded as it normally is in order to detect a problem, like suspension, braking, and steering (as was our case).

I talked to another repair facility that we use for non-warranty, and non-pump related problems, and he couldn't believe they did it either. Actually it was for a problem with the blower on our ambulance (which is on a Ford chassis). I asked the chief if he wanted me to get it into the dealership and he just laughed at me.......

[FFMcDonald]

Aghhh - Thermodynamics.

The wind will cause the temperature to bleed off an object quicker - because the wind is helping cool it. Once the object reaches the ambient (outdoor temperature) it can't fall any further.

Wind chill for humans is perceived. You have the ambient outdoor temperature- and then you have the wind chill. The wind chill it what it "feels like" when the windspeed is factored in with the ambient temperature.

And wind chill does not effect inanimate objects. Only flesh and bone objects.

[Rescue101]

Marc,I've addressed this "inanimate object"issue before but I think it's important enough to visit again.A vehicle is not truly inanimate,it has dynamic properties.If you feel that wind chill does NOT affect inaminate objects,I suggest you ride with me the next few days.If you were to do so you would find it DOES INDEED affect at least vehicles.Take two vehicles;leave one in a unheated three wall carport and leave the other one in the wind in the driveway.Both are the same ambient tempeature,but one is exposed to "wind chill".Guess which one won't start? So "wind chill"does have an effect on vehicles regardless of what lab studies may show.I guess it depends on your definition of "inanimate objects"but vehicles don't fall under the flesh and bone theory.T.C.:D