Smoke and Mirrors: Stop calling firefighters "heroes." [Archive] - Firehouse Forums

Mongoose772

11-01-2003, 10:29 PM

Brothers & Sisters:

Before this thread devolves into a mass of angry firefighters chanting a crazed mob-mentality mantra of “DEATH TO SPORTS ILLUSTRATED” or some other passion driven slogan…lets take a long minute to read exactly what has been written.

Yes, his prose is inflammatory, but there is a significant amount of truth in what he writes.

Now before you denounce me as a heretic and bring out the tar, feathers and tie me to the stake…let me say that I, like many of you, am a career fireman. I have spent the entirety of my adult life working for a municipal, unionized fire service. I am proud to be a firefighter, and have never been embarrassed when I have told someone what I do for a living. I may not make as much money or drive a new H2, but I sincerely believe I am a valuable part society and make a positive impact in my community. When attacked, that genuine pride can make me become part of the angry mob as easily as many of you, and I have in times past. But when we see a spade, let’s call it a spade.

Take out the sarcastic egocentricity of this guy’s article, and just look at the plain statements. He writes,

1. “Firefighting is a cushy job.” (Ok, that’s inflammatory, no doubt), however I DO only work 7 or 8 shifts per month! I DO work a second full time job AND find time to run my own small business! Even though I work for a fairly busy department, personally responding to more than 1000 calls annually, I DO typically manage to sleep 5-7 hours per shift! (Not to mention, I do give tours, BBQ burgers, and I WAS in our local calendar last year!) Hey, this IS a good gig. I don’t deny it. I often tell people I don’t get paid for what I DO, do, I get paid for what I CAN do. And that’s no dodo.

2. “Firefighting isn’t that dangerous.” That’s pretty true too. His statistical references are right on. Most of the brothers dying ARE from heart attacks or motor vehicle collisions responding to an incident. I often tell those firehouse tour goers, with the right combination of training and equipment firefighting is as safe as many other industrial professions.

3. “Firefighters are adrenalin junkies.” I don’t agree with that. While many volunteer departments are plagued with “jolly whackers” that still think William Shatner made a big comeback on Rescue 911…the reality is that to most professional firefighters, this is just a job. Certainly we experience a sympathetic adrenalin response when we have “the big one”, but we control that natural excitement with a calculated, well-practiced, professional response. I respect fire and other hazardous environments, and don’t let the machismo of the moment to allow myself to be injured or worse.

4. “Firefighters are a well propagandized special interest group” I am proud to be part of my local and international union of professional firefighters. But they DO wield the firefighter banner as a political sword to further their own agendas. The IAFF is very political. I get the campaign letters in the mail all the time. Don’t you? We do push our own interests, just like everyone else! We do use our popularity with the public to achieve our own ends. Hey, it was a contract year this year, don't think for one minute we don't use our good public image to negotiate with management. It's about the only tool we have! I'm glad everyone loves us!! Aren't you?

Am I a hero? I am a hero. I am a hero to my children. Sometimes I've been a hero to my neighbors children. And on a rare occasion I've been a hero to just some faceless person on the street. I’m glad for that. Don’t we make a lot better role model than some dimwitted NBA or NFL star butt boy is going to write about next week? I’m not happy an article like this was written, but I’m enough of a realist to know that he’s not just a guy who “didn’t get hired”. He did some homework. He got a good portion of it right. His motivations do not seem well meaning, but we can't deny that there is truth to what he says. Think about it.

Fraternally your brother,

Dan-
International Association of Firefighters
100% Union Firehouse

ullrichk

11-01-2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Mongoose772
Brothers & Sisters:

Yes, his prose is inflammatory, but there is a significant amount of truth in what he writes.

But his arguments don't hold water. Just insert the word "volunteer" before the word "firefighter" and you'll see what I mean.

Perhaps he'd like to engage in a rational argument. We could talk about latent vs. realized demand for fire protection, injury rates vs. other industries, rather than fatality rates. And how many cardiac events are actually dehydration-related, and not the result of being out of shape? But he never goes there.

Yes, the word hero is quite tired. There are too many people out there (in every profession, including ours) whose sad, pathetic lives can only be made bearable if they can cloak themselves in superlatives which they have not earned. His beef should be with those who have limited vocabularies, not those of us who work for a living.

FWIW, I only wish to be a hero to my own children, and I do that by being who I am, not because of what I do for a living.

FFFRED

11-02-2003, 12:49 AM

While there may be some factual information in this article...the conclusions do not necessarily follow.

No fireman I've ever met call himself or any of the guys they work with heroes. I know I don't consider myself one. And I certainly don't have a cushy job...in fact one reason I am a fireman (and I imagine most of you is I didn't want a cushy job sitting behind a desk like Mr. Gantenbein. Many guys I work with used to have "cushy" jobs in corporate america.

The title of hero has been bestowed upon us by the public and newspaper writers since our earliest days when even the largest cities were protected by volunteer fire companies.

Just the same the public has also adorned sports stars and others as heroes. I don't think that many of them (remember Charles Barkley) want to be viewed as roll models or heroes as well.
However it isn't up to them...it is up to the public perception as to who is and who isn't a hero. As unfortunate as it is there are some neighborhoods in my city where many residents who don't view police officers as positive roll models or even friends. They are not heroes and they are not necessarily looked well upon. And as sad as it is this situation isn't common to my city.

I'm sure the police don't like being viewed as the enemy as it only makes their job tougher...however it isn't up to them, it is the civilians and media who make such labels.

It is obvious that this writer has poorly researched his subject and for some reason decided to address his inadequacies and insecurities as a man by insulting and disparaging men who everyday are motivated by duty, honor and tradition to meet any challenge that might be thrown at them that tour. Regardless if it be a child or a pompous, arrogant and ignorant M***.

FTM-PTB

EHFDCo2

11-02-2003, 01:11 AM

This is a copy of the email I sent to both, the author of the article and the publisher.

Mr. Gantenbein and the Staff of Sports Illustrated:

My name is Shane A. I am writing this email to inform you of how disappointed I am in the article "Smoke and Mirrors: Stop calling firefighters "heros." I am a firefighter/EMT in the town of E. Hampton, CT. My career also lies within the Emergency Medical Services. I spend the majority of my life dedicated to working on the streets of Hartford, CT, working closely with the fire and police departments in the city. Mr. Gantenbein has written an article that is truely offensive to those involved in the emergency services, in particular, those in the fire service.

Mr. Gantenbein claims that firefighters have a "cushy job." Apparently Mr. Gantenbein has never spent a 24 hour shift riding along with an Engine Company in a busy city service. The 24 hour shift that many fire departments run are not just sitting back washing trucks and cooking burgers. Fire departments have had constantly expanding roles including search and rescue (which is one of the most exhausting calls to ever go on), responding to EMS calls as first responders (or transport services for Fire Dept. based EMS), Motor Vehicle accidents, public safety education and fire inspections. The actual numbers of true fire emergencies has declined due to better building codes and fire prevention systems, but the need for response still exists in great demand.

The next point made in the article is that "Firefighting is not that dangerous." Safety equipment has improved greatly over the years, making the profession safer then years past. I believe that Mr. Gantenbein neglects to take into consideration the amount of emotional stress involved in having a profession where you must be 100% right, 100% of the time. The comment is made that most of the line of duty deaths that occur during an actual fire are those caused by "some unbelieveable screw-up in chain of command." On an emergency scene, things are far from being a well structured day at the office. There are countless variables, and conditions can change at any moment without warning. There's a saying within the fire service "Risk a little to save a little; Risk a lot to save a lot." Any firefighter knows that any call could be his/her last alarm. It's a risk they've made the decision to accept. It could be your family or loved one that gets saved because someone is willing to give their life to save that of you or your loved one. That's a rather generous commitment that most people would not be willing to provide.

Following the sequence of the article, "firefighters are adrenaline junkies." To some extent this is very true. You have to be to do this kind of work. It certainly isn't done for the pay, since most civil service jobs don't pay very well, and the majority of the countries fire protection comes from volunteers like myself who do not get paid anything at all for our time and commitment. Firefighters take pride in being a part of what they do. Three major concepts in firefighting are: Life Safety (save any viable life), Incident Stabilization (prevent the incident from worsening), and Property Conservation (save the property in the best and most effecient way possible). These three commitments require a quick action that usually is well calculated and is also adrenaline based. If it weren't, we'd be doing more recoveries then rescues, and rebuilding more then reapiring structures.

"Firefighters have excellent propaganda skills." That's a rather bold statement in itself. These firefighters have given their life in an attempt to help someone else. They didn't have to choose to do this. They chose it because of a love for what they do. No firefighter wants to have the long formal funeral as that means that they have answered their final call, it's a tradition. Does that mean that the military should not have their ceremonies for those who have given their all? After all, it's just the military "doing their thing."

Your final statement being "Firefighters are just another special interest group." Another brave statement. We don't need to look very far in any field to find some organizations plagued with problems. The catholic church's with sexual offenders, school's with teacher's have sex with students or taking bribes for grades, major businesses with corupt CEO's. The list could go on and on. Yes, the fire service is heavily unionized in those department's that are paid. And yes, the union does look out for it's own. But if you're not looking out for yourself, who's going to look out for you? The fire service is a very tight brother/sisterhood. In a profession where you must trust each other and their decisions with your life, you learn to look out for each other. It's just the way it is.

The only thing I have been able to summarize from this piece of literature is that Mr. Gantenbein has never spent any true time to see the inner workings of the emergency services before writing this article. Any time you want to spend a night discussing the trials and tribulations of being involved in a high risk, moderately paying job (if at all for some), that is highly stressful, I'd be happy to have the conversation with you. I'd be happy to tell you about how being involved in something as powerful as the fire service has affected my life in both the good and the bad. There's not a single person that can say that they're unaffected by what they see and have to do on a regular basis. I can sum it with this. Any day at work, I may get to see the miracles of life, or the tradgedies of distruction and death or pain and suffering. If it were such a stress free, easy job, I'm sure that many other people would participate to have this "hero" status that you're concerned with stripping from those who are willing to take the chance of giving everything to help someone they've never seen before. All to possibly get a thank you...If they are lucky enough to even get that.

Shane A.
CT State Cert. Firefighter I
NREMT-Basic
Paramedic Student

sconfire

11-02-2003, 01:16 AM

Excellent email Shane...

BorderPatrol

11-02-2003, 01:54 AM

Mongoose, While I will agree somewhat with your point that there is some truth to what this guy wrote, it is the disrespectful tone of his article that I find so offensive. Not to mention his contempt for our ceremonies for our fallen brothers and his belief that we are all glory hounds. He is also completely forgetting about the volunteer segment of the fire service.

BTW, It is the same disrespectful tone as this:

Originally posted by Mongoose772

3. “Firefighters are adrenalin junkies.” I don’t agree with that. While many volunteer departments are plagued with “jolly whackers” that still think William Shatner made a big comeback on Rescue 911…the reality is that to most professional firefighters, this is just a job.

While I will be the first to admit that you will find these types of people in some Volunteer firehouses, I'd hardly call it a "plague." Just as there are many "professional" full-time firefighters on these forums and most likely even in your department that think this is more than "just a job."

Thanks for dragging the old "paid vs. vollie" into something else where it has absolutely no place. I guess we don't really need this guy's help to make firefighters look bad, do we?

BorderPatrol
100% Volunteer Firehouse

July36

11-02-2003, 02:10 AM

I just got done posting my reply on this matter over there on those MSN forums and i signed up for the forums there for this one purpose.
Heres my reply over there:

Subject: "Smoke and Mirrors"
From: femalechief44
Date: Nov 1 2003 9:48PM

"Apparently this guy hasnt been around the Fire Service that long,otherwise he would not have made some of the statements he made in his article and his 4 months or 4 years(whatever it was) is only a very small stint compared to those of us thats been in the services for many years.I think he had better do a bit more research on the fire services,visit more fire stations and interview more fire service personnell before he makes many more statements like the ones he has made in his article.
Furthermore,if he DID more research,he would see that we indeed are ALOT more busier than he realizes and that many of us do not have the time for the "extra" stuff that he mentions.We do this job simply becuase many of us WANT to...or that we feel it is our duty to do so.Ill bet once he really happened to NEED us for some kind of an incident,ill bet hed change his attitude towards whether we are "heroes" or not.We do not actually see ourselves as "heroes"...but we see ourselves doing a job,a duty and a service...to the public...to see to the welfare of our "fellow citizens".Once he realizes this,maybe he will forget the "stereotyping"."

I also emailed him..as well as Sports Illustrated letting them know what a BIG mistake they made putting down the only "help" that may be there for them someday...and to remember the words about us that is in that article when hes looking us in the faces and crying for help....and he tends to forget those of us that are on the front lines of these wildland fires that just MAY be protecting his home...and/or life.

I told SI to either keep him "on-subject" or US firefighters would boycott thier magazine. LOL

Donna C
Fire Chief
Bridge Canyon VFD
http://cms.firehouse.com/dept/SeligmanAZ

Dave1105

11-02-2003, 02:18 AM

As I read through this thread I was gearing myself up to write a long-winded response... until I came across what Mongoose wrote. I couldn't sum up my feelings towards that article any better, two thumbs up mongoose.

Don't get me wrong, I (like mongoose) don't agree with the inflamitory tone in which the article is written.... but it does speak a lot of home truths.

To those of you who responded to this thread with just a "screw you" attitude, I say re-read it and actually think about how you behave and how the public might percieve you.

33motor

11-02-2003, 02:39 AM

Well, one thing about living in this country is ones freedom of speech. Although I believe his comments are totally off the wall, and at times downright degrading... he has a right to say what he wants. But, out of all of his idiotic ramblings, none offended me worse than the following...

New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there.

I belive many of those brothers climbed those stairs knowing that either the building would probably collapse... or that another plane would hit... either way, I feel that many knew they would probably not return from that job... They all deserve more respect than any of us are able to possibly bestow upon them.

The "cushy job" statment was a slap in the face as well. I can tell you one thing... there's NOTHING cushy about pulling up and finding an intersection full of dead children... scattered along the asphalt. At times like that I even have to ask myself why I have placed myself in a situation where I have to deal with that. But, when I cradle that lifeless little body, knowing there's nothing I can do for him/her, and place them in an ambulance... or off to the side on some grass somewhere... I remember that I'm glad that there's someone like me who cares enough to show them the same respect I would want shown to a member of my family.

When my LT. was still in EMS there was more than once where he phoned dispatch or an EMS LT. and told them he was going home.. period, find someone to come in.. He didn't do it so he could go to his second job... he did it because he had seen one too many children die that shift... and when he went home it was to sit alone in the dark holding his sleeping baby.

The shear contempt that this article was written with makes me sick. It sounds to me like this "looser" has formed his opinions by watching hollywood action films. As for his comments about how busy a firehouse really is.. we felt we had a slow shift being as it was Halloween last night... 2 fires and 1 medical run on the engine, 3 runs on the truck, and 5 on the squad... I could not even tell you how many hours the ambulance was gone (as usual for them).

July36

11-02-2003, 02:48 AM

I know the feeling 33MOTOR...had one of those kid death incidents just this past July 4th.Lost 3 kids under 12 on that rollover and it will be forever in my mind about having to "body bag" those kids. :(

Donna C
Fire Chief
Bridge Canyon VFD
http://cms.firehouse.com/dept/SeligmanAZ

33motor

11-02-2003, 05:00 AM

From what I read about this guy it seems that he spent a short time with a wildland crew out west, doing research for a book he wrote aboute wildfires. So, I guess that makes him an authority on ALL dept's country wide. :rolleyes: I'm sure most of his time on the fire line was spent sitting in the cab of a brush truck, munching on a twinkie.... spitting little chunks of filling and bread out of his mouth every time an ember even came close to landing near the truck.:D

And how about his comment that makes one believe that all dept's have a calander! What??? Oh yeah, I'm in one every year... yeah right! :rolleyes: He's probably just ticked that they turned down his offer to be a fluffer. :eek: :p

LRFireE135

11-02-2003, 05:18 AM

Freedom of Speech shall only go as far as this MUTT'S rope shall hang!

Freedom of Speech doesn't cover LIBEL!!!

WHAT A MUTT!!! MAN AM I FUMING!!! :mad:

I WROTE HIM ONE HELLUVA NASTY LETTER, MOST LIKELY NOT HIS FIRST FROM ONE OF US, WHICH I POSTED ON THE OTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC (bashing the brotherhood)!!!

Anyone have access to a MUTT HUNTER?

WHERE'S CAPTAIN GONZO & THE IACOJ WHEN YA REALLY NEED EM?!?!

(Maybe I just didn't read up far enough...)

Anyway...Stay Safe Brothers & Sisters!!!

permaprobie

11-02-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Mongoose772
Yes, his prose is inflammatory, but there is a significant amount of truth in what he writes.

Well-formed post, Mongoose.
That perhaps deserved to be said
BUT spouting facts alone, doesn't mean it naturally supports the argument. Thats the oldest jounalistic trick in the book. (I summize you recognize that)

Is 'hero' overused? oh ya, we all seem to agree.

But his attacking the profession to correct the masses (and MEDIA's) overuse of 'hero'? to what end?

Where does one start..
Rediculous how he comdemes us as adrenelin junkies, from someone who makes his living catering to slobs who sit on the couch all weekend watching sport's 'adrenelin junkies' and overpaid premadonnas.

He confuses motivation, brotherhood and desire to get home in one piece as misguided junkyism. One would think a sports guy would understand comraderie... implies he's an angry loner who's never gotten his heart rate up.

How we honor our losses is not his to judge. He can stay home and watch footbal reruns in his underwear; stay home.

He's obviously not a 'doer'. Lets hope he writes more crap like that, and lets the world form their opinion of the author.

Is the pagentry overdone sometimes? sure, I think it could get toned down sometimes. If we look rediculous in the eyes of jealous loosers, who cares.

E40FDNYL35

11-02-2003, 09:32 AM

New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there.

WRONG and NOT TRUE.
While yes we lost members and we did carry them out with Honor we also did the same for ALL innocent victims murdered on 9-11-01. When we could tell the remains were a civilian the Construction Workers carry them out with full honors. Just as a Firefighter or Police Officer.

I do agree with him with this comment. "But let's save the encomiums for when they are truly deserved, not when they just show up to do their job."

But I also believe in this comment... "A man's greatest act of bravery is becoming a Fireman. Everything else is in the Line of Duty."

Chief Croker, FDNY 1906

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-02-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by LRFireE135
Freedom of Speech shall only go as far as this MUTT'S rope shall hang!

Freedom of Speech doesn't cover LIBEL!!!

WHAT A MUTT!!! MAN AM I FUMING!!! :mad:

I WROTE HIM ONE HELLUVA NASTY LETTER, MOST LIKELY NOT HIS FIRST FROM ONE OF US, WHICH I POSTED ON THE OTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC (bashing the brotherhood)!!!

Anyone have access to a MUTT HUNTER?

WHERE'S CAPTAIN GONZO & THE IACOJ WHEN YA REALLY NEED EM?!?!

(Maybe I just didn't read up far enough...)

Anyway...Stay Safe Brothers & Sisters!!!

The bottom line is that this guy has an absolute right to publish a document that freely expresses his opinion. His article didn't slander or libel anyone. Libel doesn't occur just because someone prints something controversial or unpopular. Many people have died defending this freedom that is the foundation of our free society.

One also has the freedom to post here, whether it be a rational response to the issue or a childish rant with no point whatsoever. That is the beauty of a free society.

God Bless America.

hfd66truck

11-02-2003, 10:08 AM

I couldn't let it go without comment.....MUTT

I read with horror how easily Dougie boy maligned my profession and issulted my brothers. You can ask any firefighter this question, any one and you'll get the same answer:

Are you a hero? Nope, just doing my job.

So why does Dougie boy feel it is necessary to point his sharp stick at a group of professionals, both pain and volunteer, that for the most part are underappreciated and underfunded. Jealousy maybe, or cluelessness.

Sure we have a great work schedule, but we still work more than 40 hours a week. It not like we have some special hours or something. And thank goodness that there aren't more true emergencies. You see most places are understaffed, and have a hard time dealing with the calls they have. Perhaps Doug would rather there were even less Firefighters, so their lives could be put in even greater danger doing what is already a difficult job.

As for the Stations tours, EMS, and search and rescue comment. Well the last time I checked, those were all in my job description. Perhaps before he put pen to paper he should have done a little research. Maybe even gone to a Fire Station.

Everytime there is a major emergency or crisis, firefighters go to the top of the heap. We are lauded for doing what we call routine, and in the end, all the promises fall through, and we end up right where we were to being with. That fine, don't call us heros......we never thought we were in the first place.

stm4710

11-02-2003, 12:04 PM

I read this article and flashed and wrote a nastygram. Then took a breath and re-read the article. I do not agree with 99.5% of his statements.I do agree with his last paragraph though.

None of this is meant to dispute that firefighters aren't valuable to the communities in which they work. They are. But our society is packed with unheralded heroes—small-town physicians, teachers in poverty-stricken neighborhoods, people who work in dirty, dangerous jobs like coal-mining to support a family. A firefighter plunging into a burning house to retrieve a frightened, smoke-blinded child is a hero. But let's save the encomiums for when they are truly deserved, not when they just show up to do their job.

I am surprised at the venom in this and its sister thread though.People not likeing firefighters,fire laws and the job in general goes back to 1066 AD with the enaction of Couve-Feu right up to today.
The author of this article is not alone in dislikeing the fire service nor are his opinions new. Instead of writeing emails to him and challenging his first amendment right which will lead to nothing but a circular and blue lightbar type arguement.
I suggest if we want to make a difference in the fire serivice we not attack this author,we start with local leaders who lerk in the town hall and wish to cut our budgets. Work with the public to get rid of the Norman Rockwell idea of firefighters sitting in the station and just polishing the already shiny trucks and going to the big factory fire.Show the public your prevention mesures,most of all lets try to market ourselves better to an ever increaseing and diverse audience.

Just my two cents.:)

PFire23

11-02-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by stm4710
I suggest if we want to make a difference in the fire serivice we not attack this author,we start with local leaders who lerk in the town hall and wish to cut our budgets. Work with the public to get rid of the Norman Rockwell idea of firefighters sitting in the station and just polishing the already shiny trucks and going to the big factory fire.Show the public your prevention mesures,most of all lets try to market ourselves better to an ever increaseing and diverse audience.

Just my two cents.:)

Do you honestly THINK that this is NOT already being done Jesse?? :rolleyes:

Weruj1

11-02-2003, 12:53 PM

Easy breesy ............

ChiefReason

11-02-2003, 05:00 PM

I don't know; maybe it's the effects of the pain medication that I am taking for the arthritis, but I read Gantenbein's article twice and I wouldn't waste an email on him, other than to warn him that he is about to receive a mudslide of nastygrams.
Look; he disagrees with the notion that being a hero is not automatic. He believes that there should be some noble and extraordinary effort put forth in order to use the title of hero. He has every right to offer a different perspective, albeit as unpopular as it is and expect to strike a sour note with the fire service for this article. I don't think that he didn't anticipate a flood of mail for his article. Perhaps the reason he wrote it? To me, the article was poking a stick at us; some was even tongue in cheek. Still some of it was lacking substantive proof, but he has a right to say that the word "hero" is over used.
I remember a time when we were uncomfortable when we were referred to as heroes. Now, it seems that we are offended if we are not. Does it really matter what others with a limited knowledge of what makes us tick has to say anyway? He will not affect your budget. He will not set up your duty roster. He will not be at your next fundraiser, so does he really matter?
We are working too hard at getting worked up over this one.
I'm not defending the man. But I don't find his comments that offensive either.
Don't cut him slack; just ignore him.
CR

Pride373

11-02-2003, 07:15 PM

You guys are wrong. The title of the piece is "Stop Calling Firefighters heroes". He then tries to prove that in addition to firefighters not being heroes, they are lazy, greedy, overprotected and masters of "propaganda". If you don't want to call a firefighter a hero, that's fine. But to completely downgrade the profession is an insult to all of us, paid or volunteer, wildland or structural. He has his right to try to readjust the definition of a word used too often these days. But an attack on the personal attitudes and motivations of firefighters, even if in general, is not right.

CaptainGonzo

11-02-2003, 07:26 PM

Let the "author" of this drivel have his day in the sun. The sun will set, time will pass, and the issue of SI this was in will end up in either the recycle or trash bin.

The day will come when he will dial 911 and our brothers and sisters will have to respond and save his sorry mutt backside....

Just my 3 cents worth... captains have to pay a little more!

Weruj1

11-02-2003, 07:51 PM

Art,
Thasts what I was trying to say ! :p

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-02-2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by PFire23

Do you honestly THINK that this is NOT already being done Jesse?? :rolleyes:

Bank on it. It's not being done anywhere near enough.

douggant

11-02-2003, 09:28 PM

I have NOTHING to do with Sports Illustrated, or its parent company. My articles there were written as an independent journalist, which I remain. So your attempts to "get even" by posting the SI and CNN information is pointless.

sconfire

11-02-2003, 09:55 PM

Well... hmmm... how do we look at this? Could it be that this is the person that exercised his "rights" to bash us for the job that we do.

Or could it be someone else that is just playing at being this... person...

If it is this person... I ask a simple question... why do you right such trash as this? I am sure you have run across people that are less than desirable in your travels... but you dont paint the entire profession with the same brush.

This would be the same if I accused all reporters of faking their stories... like with the "New Republic" and "The New Yorker".

At least I give you that opportunity.

Mongoose772

11-02-2003, 10:28 PM

BorderPatrol:

Please accept my apology about the inference to "jolly whackers". My intent was not to ridicule volunteers, and certainly that irreverant term doesn't apply to most volunteer firefighters.

I had made the distinction between carrer and volunteer firefighters because the sports illustrated author was primarily attacking carrer firefighters. His comments were geared towards those who perform fire service for a source of income. (ie "cushy job" et al).

Thanks for your understanding.

Dan-

CaptainGonzo

11-02-2003, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by douggant
I have NOTHING to do with Sports Illustrated, or its parent company. My articles there were written as an independent journalist, which I remain. So your attempts to "get even" by posting the SI and CNN information is pointless.

Alas...but you must remember this...

Firefighters are also sports fans..who attend and watch sporting events. They also read magazines like SI. If the editorial staff at SI gets a message from Corporate asking why they are losing a bunch of regular subscribers after a certain issue came out, and they get a lot of complaint letters about the article....

Are you that naive to think they won't put two and two together and kindly request that you no longer submit any further pieces of your "journalism" for future consideration?

Frankly...I don't care what you think about us. We have been slammed by better "journalists" than you..and you know... in a recent Gallup poll of the most honorable professions in America, the one of Firefighter was in the top 10...journalist was nowhere to be found.

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-02-2003, 10:44 PM

July36

11-02-2003, 11:05 PM

Youre in the wrong place and around the wrong "profession" trying to defend yourself about things you stated in that article aintcha DOUGGART???
You seem to not realize that you,my freind,are on OUR turf now and you will end up getting whats coming to you.
You sure do have alot of balls coming on a site thats dedicated to the fire and medical services after talking all that trash about us on another site so I must give ya what little bit of credit you deserve on that one. LOL
Furthermore,I have the strange feeling that you are either one of us that turned on us and is bashing us for some ungodly reason...or you are simply some "outsider" that tried but could never make it in the fire service!

LOLOLOL @ CAPTAIN...ur right.....journalism can be found nowhere in the top 10....or even the top 40 for that matter. LMAOOOOO
It these kinds of journalists we keep off the incident scenes simply because it is THEM...that could end up getting someone hurt.

Donna C
Fire Chief
Bridge Canyon VFD
http://cms.firehouse.com/dept/SeligmanAZ

FlyingKiwi

11-02-2003, 11:47 PM

Douglas Gantenbein

QUACK QUACK QUACK....

Water off a ducks back mate.

George, I have to agree with ya, he is on a hiding to none posting here about the subject.

Douglas, I am not an independant Firefighter, as opposed to you as an Independant Reporter, thats what makes our jobs (I am a Voli by the way) different. In your job you need to keep what you are doing away from other journalisists lest they pinch your byline.

In my job I have to trust the next guy with my health, safety, and sometimes my life. It IS that simple, I also have to trust them with my sanity sometimes, cause no one else understands as well.

QUACK QUACK QUACK....

Kia Kaha.
(New Zealand Maori Warriors greeting. means "Be Strong" of Mind, Spirit, and Body.)

lrrlti

11-03-2003, 01:20 AM

The WEB TEAM needs to take out the trash, and get the smart ass out of here.

expvol

11-03-2003, 02:35 AM

The WEB TEAM has been notified.:mad:

ThNozzleman

11-03-2003, 05:51 AM

The Webteam is not going to ban someone for posting their opinions in a civil manner. Get over yourself.

E40FDNYL35

11-03-2003, 07:25 AM

Douglas Gantenbein + William Langewiesche = COWARDS

Author description: Douglas Gantenbein has written for The Atlantic Monthly, The New York Times Magazine, Sports Illustrated, Popular Science, and Backpacker. Author of the Outside magazine column "The Gear Guy," he teaches at the University of Washington and is a member of Seattle Mountain Rescue, the oldest and largest volunteer wilderness rescue organization in the United States.

Like I said earlier;I do agree with him with this comment. "But let's save the encomiums for when they are truly deserved, not when they just show up to do their job."

But I also believe in this comment... "A man's greatest act of bravery is becoming a Fireman. Everything else is in the Line of Duty."

Chief Croker, FDNY 1906

BOYCOTT The Atlantic Monthly

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by ThNozzleman
The Webteam is not going to ban someone for posting their opinions in a civil manner. Get over yourself.

I knew one day we could agree on something.

It's time that some people realize that fire fighters are not a protected class of people. Not everyone likes us.

Captain12

11-03-2003, 07:53 AM

Personally, I do not agree with Mr. Douglas Gantenbein, and his views on our profession!

But, I only one thing to say, this is America, and he has the freedom of speech. This freedom was given to Mr. Gantenbien by our war heroes years ago. I am sure, by his standers, these men and women that lost their lives to for him, were not heroes either. As the military have many of the same traditions as the fire service.

Firefighters are Americans, we have rights too, and we have the right not to purchase Sports Illustrated or MSN or any other publications the Mr. Gantenbein writes for. Maybe the editors will consider the drop in sales, when they edit Mr. Gatenbein articles before allowing such crap to be published.

As the millions of firefighters may take this time to exercise, Exercise our right not to buy or support, any corporations that Mr. Gatenbien is affiliated with.

Mark Conn
South Florida
(Not a hero since 1978)

:mad: :mad:

LdrClmr

11-03-2003, 08:33 AM

This individual is as uninformed as he is brash...first he flames firefighters in Slate now he wanders in here trying to justify his twisted belief and all because hes mad that some guys from his area infringed on what he considered his turf (that being mountain rescue).
I dont post here often BUT after reading his rants in Slate and then reading his odacious post in here I felt compelled to remark simply by virtue of the fact that Im a member here and he shouldnt be.
The shame of it is he is hiding under the cloak of freedom of speech and using it to blasphemy people whom he has never met, or worked with. The man is obviously smart enuf to be a hazzard to himself and others, and I for one and thankful I dont live anywhere near him, if I did I would move.

fyreline

11-03-2003, 09:01 AM

A response to Mr. Douglas Gantenbein:

Let’s take step back, breathe deeply a few times, and look at this article objectively (if we can). First of all, I’m sure all of our initial reactions were pretty much the same. Something along the lines of “Why, you mutt, I oughta….”. Secondly, remember that in these forums, or the firehouse, or with our families, we are preaching to the choir (that means that we are attempting to persuade those who already agree with us). Thirdly, in over 30 years as a firefighter I have seen Mr. Gantenbein’s point of view expressed every once in a while, so it’s nothing new. Sometimes the letter is from a wanna-be that was rejected by or dismissed from his local volunteer fire department and seeks to “get back at them”. Sometimes it comes from a guy who has tried and tried in vain to get on his local paid department, and lashes out in his frustration. More typically it is from some poorly-informed civilian with a lot of time, a little paper, and no clue. He has an axe to grind, and we are a target of convenience.

I present for your consideration a discussion of this article, in an attempt to put it in perspective. I tried hard (although not altogether successfully) to prevent this from being an angry rant. Such replies are neither helpful nor professional. Please don’t bother sending this guy hate mail. Those who get it, get it. Those who don’t throw stones at those who do. Please bear in mind that Mr. Gantenbein’s article doesn’t entirely malign firefighters – his main point is that we shouldn’t be called heroes, because a lot of the time (in his myopic view) we aren’t doing much, if anything. Let’s get into it, shall we?

First, and most importantly, Mr.Gantenbein, you had every right to write the article. You are entitled to your opinions, as are we all. I do regret that someone chose to publish it without equal space for a dissenting viewpoint, but I’m quite sure that you would probably point out that your article is in fact the dissenting viewpoint to the commonly-held belief that firefighters are indeed heroes. May it ever be so. In any case, your assertion that it is a “cush job” with the “best work schedule in the United States” set the tone fairly early - your article is long on opinion and short on fact. In my 30+ years as a firefighter I have seen my work schedule go from 64 hours per week to 48. Even though there is a New York State mandated 40-hour work week for professional firefighters, we still work 48 and get paid the difference in Night Differential Pay. Other paid firefighters around the country work more hours than that, and volunteer firefighters don’t even get the benefit of a work schedule. So, even though the accepted 9-to-5, Monday-through-Friday work week is 40 hours, I work more than that. This also, Mr. Gantenbein, includes weekends and holidays. How many hours per week do you work, Douglas? And how many of your kid’s Christmases have you missed? I’ve missed quite a few.

As far as your view that “a few big-city fire stations may have 4, 5 or 6 calls or more during a shift, and the rest are not nearly that busy” . . . boy, you need to get around more. Yes, there are some quieter stations, but you have missed the entire premise of paid fire protection. You see, Douglas, we have to be here 24-7 because we don’t know when your emergency will be, or where. If you could schedule them for us, it would make things a lot easier. Nice spring afternoons would be nice, if it isn’t too much trouble.

I also take issue with your thinking that giving tours to school kids (we call it “fire prevention education”) and washing the fire engines (we call it “equipment maintenance”, and it involves a lot more than a just keeping things clean) are not really part of what we should be doing. I guess that building inspections are out, too. Likewise patrolling public assembly events – after all, that isn’t putting hose in the road. You make it sound like we should be out there fighting major blazes all day, every day. Well, I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but the future of the fire service lies much more in fire prevention than in fire suppression. The vast majority of fire deaths in the United States are dead when the alarm sounds at the fire station. It’s our job to save them, too, and that’s what fire prevention is all about. Your comments about firefighters “doing ambulance work, doing search-and-rescue work, anything but Job #1” are truly incredible. Those are our duties too, Douglas, and believe it or not you are Job #1, whether you are on fire, trapped in a car wreck, or having a heart attack.

Your comments about many firefighters moonlighting at other jobs is certainly true. I put three sons through college, and you can’t do that on what we pay our firefighters. It’s called providing for your family, and believe me, most of us don’t work those second (and third) jobs because we like it. We are already away from our families more than the average worker. Guess you missed that. OK, what’s next?

Oh yes . . . “firefighting isn’t that dangerous”. Ride along with me in my first alarm district some summer night, Douglas. It’ll change your mind for you. By the way, exactly how many letter-writers died in the line of duty last year? Mr. Gantenbein, rather than allow you to dishonor the memory of so many men and women who are better than yourself, you’ll just have to shut up on this point. I’ve lost too many friends to be able to respond to you objectively on this issue and I make no apology for that.

As far as being ‘adrenaline junkies”, yes, I’ve seen some of that. Most of them are young and haven’t seen enough yet. Believe me, even big fires aren’t that thrilling after the first few hundred. Your point about our “excellent propaganda skills” is also confusing. No firefighter I know (or have ever known) is into tooting his own horn. We don’t do that. We hate that. I’m also sorry you found a firefighter’s funeral “agony” to sit through. Rest assured it was agony for us too, but for very different reasons. You see, our funeral rituals are for us, not for you. They mean something to us. We have earned the right to have them. You have not earned the right to criticize them. Next time, stay home. We don’t want you there.

Yes, you are correct we are a special interest group. What you fail to grasp is that our “special interest” is your sorry ass. I regret very much that you feel it necessary to label some of us as greedy, lazy, racist, sexist homophobes. Some of us may be some of those things . . . we are people, too. But, call us what you will, we will continue to be there for you whenever and wherever you need us. We will do whatever is necessary to ensure your safety, even at the risk of our own. That’s what we do.

In closing, I will not be defined by the misguided ramblings of an ignorant non-combatant. You don’t have the slightest idea what we do, or why, and your opinion doesn’t matter to me at all. Do I consider myself a hero? No, I don’t think that way. I know a lot of heroes, though. As we clear the doors and hit the siren, I’m surrounded by them. It’s a genuine privilege to know them. Too bad you never will. We are firefighters, and we watch out for each other . . . and for you, Mr. Douglas Gantenbein.

What’s that? . . . . . . Oh, you’re welcome.

Captain David B. Reeves
Truck Company 3
Syracuse Fire Department
Syracuse, NY

--------------------
" Syracuse - An ISO Class 1 Fire Department"

ThNozzleman

11-03-2003, 09:57 AM

I knew one day we could agree on something.
So, THAT'S what all the earth-shaking was about! ;)

ff7134

11-03-2003, 10:07 AM

MUTT ! MUTT! MUTT ! MUTT! Where is the Dog Catcher when you need one?

AVFR452

11-03-2003, 10:25 AM

Captain Reeves,

I think your letter pretty near sums it up for us all, Paid and Volunteer. Some people will just never understand.

Stay Safe,

Jim

DHolland

11-03-2003, 10:28 AM

Try to keep everything in perspective. "Those who can, Do and become firefighters. Those who can't, become writers!":rolleyes: Just keep in mind we have earned a good name and don't have to prove anything to anyone.
E. Dean Holland
Retired Fire Chief

coldstare109

11-03-2003, 10:28 AM

Mongoose,
I understand what you are saying 100%. This guy has hit some issues that the industry has problems with.
The part that fry's me is this is exactly the kind of media that city planners use to decide budgets for their Depts.
Maybe he should ride in a house that sends out two man engine companies for a few weeks. I mean in between games of checkers. I am having a hard time typing this with my bags of money beside me. Maybe he should find out the reason we need second jobs on our off days.
In his mindset I guess I should only get paid by the call.

A four month wonder goes out and hears some story's, sees a flame or two, and he is an treated as an expert. The point he really misses is that the media are the ones that have pounded the "Hero" name on us. It doesn't sell newspapers or books to just say Firefighters.

He is right that the industry needs help on some issues, but If he is trying to help by making us look like a bunch of lazy, overpaid, thrill junkies. Thanks for nothing. When they cut our budgets, and manpower again, let him call the pizza delivery guy instead of 911.

BorderPatrol

11-03-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Mongoose772
BorderPatrol:

Please accept my apology about the inference to "jolly whackers". My intent was not to ridicule volunteers, and certainly that irreverant term doesn't apply to most volunteer firefighters.

Mongoose, apology accepted and please accept mine for having a hair trigger on these issues.

Stay safe Brother

Reliance

11-03-2003, 11:19 AM

I did not join the fire service to be told I have an easy, cushy job and be called a hero, it is just the opposite.

When I joined the Yarmouth Volunteer FD in Nova Scotia 28 years ago I was getting $10 a year honorarium. Now I am getting around $200 a year before taxes. I did not join for the money as it doesn't cover the gas or dry cleaning.

I did not join to be told it's cushy and easy work. Believe me it's not.

When you leave your house and warm bed on a snowy night you don't know when you are coming home.

I think that writer should wake up smell the roses and work a 24 hour shift with some of the men he is insulting.

Our motto is to serve, defend and protect life and property no matter how easy or hard the work is.

ResQUrCat4Free

11-03-2003, 11:42 AM

This job isn't dangerous?

Tell that to 343 of our brothren that went to work on the morning of 9/11.

BFD182

11-03-2003, 11:58 AM

It has been a while since I have posted anything here, but like all of you, this is something I felt strongly about. As for being heroes, I don't think you can find one firefighter who calls himself a hero. Yet even as we tend to consider what we do "just doing our job" we still take the time to recognize our members who have done something we consider to be "above and beyond" that call. Even when presented one of these awards, the individual will not call himself a hero. That in part is what makes a hero to me, that humble attitude.

As for some of the "Facts" that the author used in his article, they seem more generalizations and stereotypes than facts. Yes there are slow stations just as there are busy stations. There is greater safety now than in the past, but not enough, as we keep loosing our brothers. While there is no single cause of death among fire service fatalities, it is wrong to say that firefighters are dying for being out of shape.

As for the fire service being heavily unionized, I think actually it is somewhat less unionized than most other professions. While most if not all career firefighters are members of a union, the majority of firefighters and fire departments in the country are volunteer and as such are not unionized. That doesn't seem all that heavy to me. Are we a special interest group, I guess in a way we are, but how many other special interest groups devote themselves to trying to end thier business? We as firefighters and as fire service organizations spend alot of time working on fire and injury prevention. IF it were actually possible to totally prevent these things we would no longer be needed.

As for working second jobs sure there are some that do that. But most career firefighters work more than 40 hours a week and most volunteer firefighters do this in addition to thier jobs, so how exactly is this a bad thing? Plus let us remember that the author's bio lists more than one publication, so doesn't he work more than one job? doesn't he moonlight?

Are we junkies just looking for a rush? I don't think we are at all, but there is a certain rush in knowing that you are there when needed, to save life and property. There is a certain rush in a job well done. In as much as this is about having pride in what you do and doing what you enjoy, these are not faults but core american values.

Are the funeral rituals silly or overdone? I don't think so. Each and every thing that is done at a fire service funeral is done as a tradition that is representative of something. From flowers in a speaking trumpet to uniformed pallbearers. Does it matter that some of those killed fighting fires were jsut college kids? I hardly think so, this year we have seen the tragedy of a sixteen year old killed in an apparatus roll over, should that not have been considered line of duty because she didn't make it to the fire? That would be the worst kind of dishonor to show the departed. I for one hope I never have to put on my uniform for a funeral again, ever. I know I will have to do this, however. I also somewhat selfishly hope none of you will ever have to put on your uniforms and stand to honor me, but I am comforted a little to know that if that does happen the brotherhood of the fire service, a large number of whom will not know much about me, will be there for my family.

As for first amendment rights, the author absolutely has the right to write anything he wants, and the publishers absolutely have the right to publish anything they want. That is part of what makes america great. One of the other rights that makes this a great country is the right of free assembly, which allows us to be the brotherhood that we are, and the right of peaceful protest which allows us to not buy magazines, use internet providers, watch news channels or otherwise patronize the various outlets that this author has. Do I think that a full scale boycott is needed, I don't know. Partly because I'm not all that sure how effective it would be. I think the form of protest needs to be almost an individual thing. After all we are a special interest group that just does our thing, right?

Alan Shaw
Belltown Fire Department
Stamford, CT

stm4710

11-03-2003, 12:08 PM

Let the "author" of this drivel have his day in the sun. The sun will set, time will pass, and the issue of SI this was in will end up in either the recycle or trash bin. 100% true!

You know whats funny/sad/odd/strange is when we keep responding to the posts Douglas Gantenbein + William Langewiesche made.We collectivly are just feeding the trolls.

PFire23

11-03-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by stm4710
We collectivly are just feeding the trolls.

Something you know all about huh??? :D :D :D :D

cavemutt

11-03-2003, 12:17 PM

Did a little firehouse detective work today with yahoo people search.

Came up with the address and phone number of the author of this terrible article, Doug Gantenbein and his wife, Jane Kilburn.

I am obviously not suggesting that we should all call or write directly to them to voice our displeasure. I am merely providing a bit of information for the masses.

< PERSONAL INFORMATION REMOVED >

Sorry, if you want to contact, use the individual's personal web site listed. But posting personal information, wife's name, etc. is not appropriate here --- WebTeam

PFire23

11-03-2003, 12:23 PM

I don't think that's right to post someone's PERSONAL information, ESPECIALLY a home address on here for anyone to see. Do you want it on your head that something happened to these people because some nutcase saw the address here?? I would suggest removing that, not to mention the fact that it goes against the TOS of the site. Bad move on your part. The guy has a VERY differing opinion than the rest of us regarding the Fire Service, however I don't think posting his wife's name and their home address is the proper course of action.

Rippin73

11-03-2003, 12:24 PM

Any one paying attention to "The media" (TV,print,Radio)realizes that they are owned by huge corporations that tend to further there own causes. It has becone increasingly evident that many of these "news" organizations are finely cloaked advertisements for there books,mags, sports bars, movies,...,for their parent or sister Co.s I think the author had some preconcieved political motivations for his piece and he got the reaction he was looking for. There is a faction out there who want to strip away what our brothers before us have built. They want the fire service to be "cheaper" to operate. The onus is on the departments to be pillars in the community and to market yourselves with the same zeal as these political "media giants" want to belittle the invaluable service we render.

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 12:28 PM

What the hell is wrong with you? Why don't you just play into this guy's hand? You know he reads this. There is no legitimate reason to post this address except as a veiled threat. I reported this to the WT and hopefully it will be deleted soon.

SPFDRum

11-03-2003, 12:32 PM

Yes, the first addmendment allows for such dribble to be published, and yes I spent my time in the military to ensure that right, including the Gulf War of '91, and yes, if asked I would do it again.
If 56 hours a week/2900 hours a year is cushy, so be it...
If you believe that our Union, and it's desire to keep us safe is a special intrest, so be it...
If you think we are addrenilin junkies, so be it... (but I can guarentee there isn't one of us that gets a rush out of pulling people out of fires to the distressed look of family members)
If you believe firefighters think of themselves as heroes, you are wrong again, so be it...
And the list of falicies goes on, so be it...
The best part of your article is; you are a perfect example of how out of touch the main stream media is from the general public. For this, I thank you.

PFire23

11-03-2003, 12:33 PM

George, might I suggest editing the address out of the quote in your post. I was going to quote him too, but that's the reason why I didn't. Maybe then JUST that one post can be removed and not an entire thread. I think that perhaps this thread can be a good thing if people keep their tempers in check, MAYBE the author can get a differing view of what we do, IF we all act like adults.

Obviously, he has based his opinion on something, and we all know that it only takes ONE bad apple to spoil the bunch. So instead of getting all twisty and tied up in knots, why don't we objectively tell him what we do (as several have), give him a better idea and a larger comparison base. It's easy to see a small minority that don't fit in with the "norm" and base a judgement on that, and while it's our natural love of the brotherhood that makes us want to jump down this guys throat; lets use that love and respect to change his view of us, not reinforce it.

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 12:48 PM

TillerMan25

11-03-2003, 12:54 PM

You know I see alot of people saying things like "this is his right" and "free speech" and "first amendment." Yes, this guy has the right to write and print what he wants, millions of young men and women have died over the years for him to exercise this right. However, it is my right as an American Citizen to disagree with it as well. So in not so many words, Mr. Gantenbein, F--K YOU!

This is what happens when you let the left control the Media. I called and cancelled my SI subscrition as soon as I read it and also am suggesting we cancel the subscription we have at the Firehouse. I know he isn't an SI regular, but they let him write for them. So AMF SI!

While I do not disagree with a couple of the statements in the article, it was mostly bullscat and I now know why I am proud to be an AMERICAN a FIREFIGHTER and a REPUBLICAN!

MalahatTwo7

11-03-2003, 12:58 PM

In roundabout terms this was stated eariler, but it seems to me that this fellow might suffer from "Ladder Envy" or something like that, relating to his particular statement on use of ladder trucks:

"honor" four young people killed in a forest fire (one absurd touch: hook-and-ladder rigs extended to form a huge arch over the entrance to the funeral hall).

Hmm I don't know the background on this one, but I do know that "we" don't do things without reason. And I am sure there was a good one, besides the death of four young people.

Mongoose, your initial post was well said. George, I sadly must agree with you on the "Freedom of Speech" part. No I am not sad to agree with you (we do that sometimes LOL) but only in the fact that this fellow is allowed his $0.02 worth, and his 10 minutes of fame. I belive he has received those and more perhaps. We have our freedom to speak out against him, just as he had his to make his article. Sometimes that really sucks.

Chief Reason, yep you are right on the money there. This guy is not worth the effort to send a msg to, in my opinion either. Something about the last line in my signature comes to mind: [i]"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."[i] Perhaps we might want to take care in how we respond at a personal level to this individual.

Pfire: orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, he really wanted to be a firefighter and couldn't make the cut so he became a journalistic bastahd instead :D Yep right on the money!

I don't agree with what this guy wrote anymore than the rest of us do. Some of his "facts" may be correct, and I don't need to reiterate them, it's been done. His tone and direction are certainly out to lunch, but then as George stated, that's his opinion, and we all have one. Sometimes we agree sometimes we don't, thats part of being Human. HOWEVER, one thing that I really didn't agree with, and this has been said too, is the public posting of Mr Gantenbein's home address. I just spent an entire Thursday attending an Access to Information/Privacy Act briefing, and this goes against everything that the Act protects. I hope that the Webteam will "strike" that part from the forums. Yes it might be information that is publicly avialable, but the rights of the individual are still to be protected. Publicly posting someone's home address without consent is a very big bad NO-NO.

PFire23

11-03-2003, 01:02 PM

Thanks George!! :)

I was reading some of his responses on the MSN forum, and I read where some people who have contacted him have threatened him and his family with harm, burning down his house etc., so I didn't really think his address being posted was a great idea. I might also add that knowing that these types of threats have been made against an individual who has a negative opinion of us as it is EMBARASSES me and does nothing to bolster his view of us.

cavemutt

11-03-2003, 01:03 PM

In the article, there is a link to the author's home page where he, himself, gives his wife's name and the city where he lives. I merely used this information to do a yahoo people search and found his address. I did NOT post anything that is not freely available on the internet already.

PFire23

11-03-2003, 01:11 PM

No one was bashing you Cavemutt. You used poor judgement in posting his address. Yes it's not difficult to obtain certain types of information online, but it really wasn't necessary NOR does it excuse your actions. If you consider constructive criticism to be "bashing" then you have my condolences.

webteam

11-03-2003, 01:22 PM

Any more direct personal information we removed from here within 25 minutes of it appearing, as it is clearly not appropriate.

The posts the author made in other forums about people calling him with threats, etc. were posted on MSN long earlier.

Anyone, firefighter or otherwise, who verbally or physically threatens the author, should truly should be ashamed. Its one thing to criticize and strongly disagree -- and there has been great debate here and elsewhere -- but if anyone truly is calling and threatening harm, etc. they do the firefighting community ZERO good ... and they certainly aern't anyone's hero.

Dave Iannone
Publisher
Firehouse.com

nhfirechief

11-03-2003, 01:26 PM

This article was very interesting and does bring out some of the misconceptions that very uninformed people seem to perpetuate.

It is understandable that someone with a narrow view on life (apparently the author is associated with a sports publication)would write something like this. He probably thinks that people who pay sports on the weekends and make million dollar salaries are "heros".

I can overlook the author's obvious slanted view on "real heros" (which, by the way, are not only the FFs who rush into a burning building to say a child)as he has never seen the good that a FF or EMS provider does for their community in helping out when somebody has a personal crisis.

The author also needs to look back at some of the comments made by NFL football players right after 9/11. I remember Tom Brady of the Patriots being on TV and stating that "This is just a game. Those people (firefighters, ppolice officers, etc.) are heros every day".

(Note to self: cancel Sports Illustrated subscription)

ESprinkle

11-03-2003, 01:36 PM

It makes me mad to read something so stupid. Ive been in the fire service for over 12 years with the Air Force for four years and 8 years with the City of Hickory North Carolina. Its not a big Department but we still run about 15-to- 20 calls a shift. To me we are all heros for just taking a job were you may not come home to your family. Im also on an Honor Guard Team, we travel every year to Emittsburg to honor our fallen brothers. if the author could see the emotions in the fammilies faces and all the honor guards up there he may understand why we honor them the way we do. I have attended a couple of fallen firefighter funerals and also been apart of them as a honor guard member. The families always want the fire service to honor thier love one the traditional way. One of the greatest sites is the two ladder trucks raised w/ the american flag between them. The author has alot to learn about firefighters way and thier daily tasks that each one has to encounter each shift. Yes alot of us have second jobs when we are off duty. But I cant retire until I have 30 years of service and I still Have to make more money someway besides the fire service to make it. Most firefighters are under paided so the have to make it up the best way they can but the firefighting job always comes first for the most of us. As for dangerous jobs we are in one of the worst for what we go threw to do our job and help those in need. Everytime the alarms sound we put our lives on the line for someone else. So Mr. Author you have alot of research to do about our job and the way we are seen by people. You may need to find yourself another career besides writing things you dont know anything about. GOD BLESS ALL MY FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTER

Mward0

11-03-2003, 01:40 PM

WebTeam - kudos for removing the personal information.

Like PFire23, I read the threads on the Slate site. Boy, can we quickly become a mob or what! Here are some of the author's postings from the Slate site:

Subject: RE: Mr.Gantenbein's Profile
From: douglasg
Date: Nov 2 2003 8:09PM

This has become painfully obvious: You people are crazy. The bullying, the intimidation, the obscenities, posting personal information and inciting people to "go get him," the effort here to "get even" by harassing people who had nothing to do with this -- all of this says far more about the "profession" of firefighting than anything I could have said or written. Children who have gotten their way too long is what you are. Children.

Here is the link to that Slate thread:

http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&m=8692154

Subject: RE: TO: medic002
From: douglasg
Date: Nov 2 2003 8:13PM

Yes, I have learned a lot from this experience. I have learned that:

Firefighters cannot tolerate criticism.
Firefighters will bully, threaten and intimidate in an effort to "get their way."
Firefighters believe getting even is a perfectly appropriate way to express displeasure.
Firefighters speak mainly in obsecenities.
Firefighters cannot spell.

What other "take aways" can you suggest?

______________________________ __________

Subject: RE: Refer to2:14 posting doug
From: douglasg
Date: Nov 3 2003 2:34AM

Not a nickel. (response to a question of how much Slate paid him for the column.) Am sitting here in wide-awake amazement at the world of firefighting. A few reasonable people, plus a bunch o' nuts.
______________________________ _____________

(the nuts included at least one phone call threatening to burn his house down.)
______________________________ ______________

I called Slate editor Jacob Weisberg at his New York office this morning. I was requesting permission to use the article as a reading for classes I am teaching at George Washington University and the community college. In the process of getting this done, I included this observation:

"I found some of Gantenbein's descriptions of city firefighter work cruel and inaccurate generalizations. But it is a point of view I want my students to hear and consider."

No kidding, I was angry after I read the article. But if we do not consider that some people DO think that way about us, then we create a huge blind side and reduce the effectiveness of our "propaganda."

Many of the points in the article are valid - cruelly stated and skewed to make his points.

I did not like the article, but I am more distressed by the responses. Smooth move, calling his home and threatening to burn it down.

Mike Ward

E229Lt

11-03-2003, 01:41 PM

Doug,

Welcome to our forum. I give you credit for coming here to openly admire what you have started. Posting the fact you are reading these responses which, you are aware, will keep them coming for quite some time shows some stones. I’ve read about your book and can assume you spent some time with firefighters as you did your research. You learned about their tactics, equipment and saw them at their jobs. You ate with them, talked with them and likely responded with them. You were, for a brief time, part of their family, though not a blood relative. You wrote of their work in the summer of 2001 as a first hand observer. Then came the wildfires of 2003. You were no longer part of the family and did not get invited to the family gathering. This has left you bitter and you lashed out with your, ink filled, sword.

In an effort to make your point that we indeed are not all heroes, you followed the lead of the O.J. Simpson prosecutors and framed a guilty party. We would be the first to agree that we are not all heroes. At the same time we have the opportunity to witness heroic acts on a regular basis and see the men and women who perform these acts shrug them off with little credit taken. It’s clear your research failed to get into the hearts and minds of those you were with.

If I could point out a few areas that you may want to re-investigate:

Firefighting is a cushy job. 24 hours on, 48 hours off is a work week of 48-72 hours. In that time we are paid wages of a 40 hour worker. Giving school children tours and teaching fire safety at the same time is community service. Washing the rigs is maintaining extremely expensive equipment purchased by the taxpayers. Cooking, eating and sleeping are necessary to support life. Perhaps we could do without them and get back in the top ten most dangerous occupation category you seem to think is a basis of your opinion. As for your quote “In those cases where firefighters die in a blaze, it's almost always because of some unbelievable screw-up in the command chain.” You have zero basis for this statement.

Firefighters are adrenalin junkies. This is a physiological event which the body creates in response to danger. We have zero control over it. Commonly termed “fight or flight” our body prepares itself for the demands we are about to put on it. I will point out, we use it for fight, not flight. It’s our job. We have overcome natural fears in our minds which our bodies continue to compensate for by secreting adrenalin into our bloodstream. I have never injected adrenalin into my body, only the bodies of my patients in cardiac arrest and anaphylactic shock. Please don’t call me a junkie.

Firefighters have excellent propaganda skills. Now this I found a disturbing paragraph. You stated: “Any time a big-city firefighter is killed on duty, that city will all but shut down a few days later while thousands of firefighters line the streets for a procession.”
A few days? I’ve stood at attention at many a funeral, but never for a few days.
You further stated: (one absurd touch: hook-and-ladder rigs extended to form a huge arch over the entrance to the funeral hall) The widow of a good friend placed her hand on my arm as we passed under such a display and stated how wonderful and thoughtful a salute it was. Sorry Doug, I’ll take her word over yours on this one.
We turn out in the numbers we do for many reasons. Propaganda is not one of them. First, we turnout because the family requests a Formal Fire Funeral, (which is totally their call). If that is their request we are there, no questions asked. Second, it’s a time for us all to face what we often ignore and that is our own mortality. You call it tasteless? You really are reaching on this one.

Firefighters are just another interest group. Fighting for the best training, equipment and protocols to do a job protecting people we don’t know and may never see again. People like you, before you wrote this article and after. You do mountain rescue, right? Who supplies you, do you have all you need, is anyone helping you improve the survival of your charges??? We do this in the best interest of those we protect and we are their advocates in local, state and federal arenas where the funding comes from.

And finally, as I read your article I braced for the passage I knew would come. When you would sling the last of your mud at the World Trade Center Recovery. Your words read:

“New York firefighters, admittedly deep in grief over lost co-workers, exacerbated the challenge of body recovery operations after 9/11 by insisting on elaborate removal procedures for each firefighter uncovered, an insult to others who died there.”

I can only use the response given to author, William Langewiesche. Who, by the way, you remind me of in your “controversy sells copy” way of thinking.

“ Realistically, no one knew when faced with a piece of glutinous mass if it was a friend’s child, FDNY, PAPD or a civilian. Respect and quiet reverence for life and grief of shared death was the major aura at the site in regard to bodies and body parts. It is factually incorrect and an injustice to the living and dead to state that firefighters accorded “elaborate flag-draped ceremonials” for “their own dead” and were “jaded” in treatment of civilian dead.”

We’re not heroes Doug. We don’t claim to be. This label was placed on us by writers like yourself. We didn’t ask for it and we certainly didn’t ask for your countering the words of your own profession by dragging us through the mud to prove your point.

A writer, much better than yourself, once said:

“I can think of no more stirring symbol of man’s humanity to man, than a fire engine” Kurt Vonnegut

Perhaps you should begin by straightening him out then the rest of your peers. Just stay off our backs. The word hero you all threw on our shoulders is burden enough.

SamsonFCDES

11-03-2003, 01:42 PM

I have read that he used to work for Sports Illustrated.

He is probly striking out at FF because of the new reputation of professional atheletes.

They went from bing "heroes" to being spoiled psycho rapists strung out on crack and looking for their next 15 year old victim.

In any case, we are not respected for our training and waiting hours, we are respected for the more brief conflicts with terror and danger that can mean the difference between life and death for those impacted.

Cushy job, LOL, thats rich.

Lets send this guy on a 21 day wildfire rotation with the Lolo Hotshots and then he can tell use how cushy that job is...

If he comes back alive! :D

phyrngn

11-03-2003, 01:46 PM

Here is my letter to Slate.com....

How dare Douglas Gantenbein dishonor one of the proudest professions known to man!!! His wielding of the pen is a despicable example of a person the "bites the hand...." If his article was meant to stir a reaction, then just STAND BY!!! He has taken a rather myopic view of the broad spectrum of duties that are provided, and, unfortunately for the general public, some people will actually believe what he has to say.

Firefighting is a cushy job--What does this mean? Yes, fires are down. This is due, in no small part, to the prevention efforts of firefighters, fire chiefs, code agencies, and the like over the past half century. Taxpayers pay for vigilance. As predictable as many things have become thanks to modern technology, we still live in a fluid world. If Mr. Gentenbein can predict that Mrs. Smith's house will catch fire at 3:32 PM next Sunday, or Mr. Johnson's car will crash at the Intersection of 2nd and Main at 9:30 AM next Tuesday, then I'm sure he could assist many nationwide Fire Chief's with staffing stations appropriately thanks to his clairvoyance. Tell me my job is "cushy?" How hard is writing? I believe that's what I'm doing right now. Boy, is this easy!!! Now my department is not busy by some standards, but I'll bet that Mr. Genteinbein couldn't keep up with us on my Wednesday shift last week. Before noon, we were first in on a working fire, assisted with providing the homeowner with placement services, and responded on two medical calls that required transporation of these people to the hospital. I suppose that Mr. Gentenbein had just finished his second or third latte. (That's what writers drink, isn't it?) As far as the "easy" schedule...I don't get to see my family as often as I would like, and that is a sacrifice that I've made in working a 24 hour shift. When Mr. Gentenbein goes home at night, every night, he gets to see his family. I don't. As far as starting a second career on those "days off," many firefighters are still underpaid to the point where this is not a "luxury" but a necessity in order to support their families. Averaging a 56 hour work week with the fire department along with an additional 30 hours working a day off job in order to pay the bills is not what I'd call "cushy."

Firefighting isn't dangerous--This makes me laugh. Yes, statistically, being a logger or a fisherman is probably more dangerous, but the dangers are known. Every time we respond to help someone, there are so many unknown variables involved that can kill us in many different ways. Loggers and fishermen can predict that some of their actions can cause death or serious injury. Being in a "people profession," we oftentimes cannot predict the nuances of the human psyche in someone that we don't know until we get there. In addition to that, we can respond to a fire or medical emergency in the nicest neighborhood in town, and find that the inside of the house is as trashed as something that you might see in the ghetto. People do things to their homes and to each other that you can't predict. Now this is not meant as an affront to pizza delivery drivers, but their risks, also, are predictable. You can beat statistics to death in order to make them say what you want them to say.

Firefighters are adrenalin junkies--Gosh, I feel bad about this. Mr. Genteinbein is trying to equate our profession with an "extreme" sport, such as BASE jumping or skateboarding. Guess what? Many firefighters do enjoy the adrenalin rush that comes with the job. Most firefighters also enjoy doing their job to the point that they will do anything and everything to "take care of business." Tell me that your heart wouldn't be pounding a little faster when confronted with a house boiling over with smoke with reports of people trapped. Most firefighters have learned to harness this adrenalin in order to take calculated steps that puts the fire out or provides for life safety. X-Games "junkies" are getting their adrenalin rush for themselves. We are doing it for others.

Firefighters have excellent propaganda skills--now this is possibly the portion of the article that makes my blood boil the most. Do writers, accountants, insurance salespeople, or mainframe technicians march to honor "one of their own" that has passed? I don't recall ever seeing this. When a firefighter dies in the line of duty, he/she has sacrificed his/her life and left a family behind. This family includes both real and fire service. These "parades," as Mr. Genteinbein implies, are a symbol to all, including the fallen's family, that their sacrifice will not be forgotten. In addition to this, the firefighter's family needs to be honored for their sacrifice and know that brother and sister firefighters will always be there. This is not propaganda. I suppose that Genetenbein would also say the same thing for the soldiers that are fighting and dying for our freedom. An arched hook and ladder with a flag is not an "absurd" touch. It is a tradition that is meant to be respected in a solemn manner. Gentenbein's implications are that honoring the Worcester 6, the Keokuk 3, and the FDNY 343 were all a bunch of unnecessary fanfare. Shame on you, Douglas Gentenbein. You have stomped on the graves of every honorable man that I have marched for in a funeral procession.

Firefighters are just another interest group--Please. Firefighters are the most adaptable use of resources that any taxpayer could want. If you had a separate agency to respond specifically to the combined call genres to which we encounter, the taxpayers would be in an uproar. In addition to responding to fires, we respond to medical emergencies, fuel spills, gas leaks, suspicious articles (who is responding to your terrorist incident, Mr. Gentenbein?), car accidents, industrial and machinery accidents, building collapses, trench collapses, high angle rescues, grass fires, drownings, smell investigations, just to name a few.

Most firefighters (myself included) scoff at being called heroes. It is indeed an honor to serve the public and have someone appreciate what we do. The true heroes are those that have made the supreme sacrifice. Although what I do every day may seem mundane and in and of itself is not heroic (and I don't wish to be placed in the "hero" column), I don't appreciate the true message behind this article: that firefighting is "just another job." I love my job. And every night, I can go to bed knowing that no matter who calls, no matter what their age or status in life, my team of firefighters will be there to do the job, and do it well.

Tim Linke
Proud Firefighter/Paramedic
Lincoln, NE

(The items written above are my opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of those in the agencies with which I respond.)

PFire23

11-03-2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by PFire23

orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, he really wanted to be a firefighter and couldn't make the cut so he became a journalistic bastahd instead :D

Ok, I just got out of the shower, which by the way is a great place to think. While I was in there I had many thoughts on this topic. So I would first like to recant the statement that I made at the beginning of this thread. Yes, I'm a big enough person to admit that I let my emotions rule me at that particular moment, after much thinking and pondering of the said article I have come to the following conclusion.

Firefighting is like any other profession, there are good and bad throughout the system. Just as there can be crooked cops, slimebag lawyers, corrupt judges, pediophile teachers, coaches, daycare workers, etc., there are bad firefighters. Yes we do have arsonists among us, yes we do have those who are in it JUST for hero worship (most of us don't ask for that), we have those who are in it for the glory....... BUT the fact that is missing from this article is the reason why the MAJORITY of us are doing this job, be it volunteer or career. I do it because I LOVE helping others, I like knowing that I'm helping to keep my community and those that live in it safe, I like being a part of the brotherhood, my brothers and sisters are my extended family and they are ALWAYS there for me, I like the history and tradition that comes with the fire service, with so much tradition going to the wayside these days it's nice to see something maintains tradition, most of all I'm good at what I do. I'm empathetic to others, I am compassionate to their needs, and I can calm down a person who is frightened when a crisis strikes...... I like knowing that I can make a small difference in even just one person's life.

Now my challenge to Mr. Gantenbein and to ALL my brothers and sisters is simple. Let's CHANGE the way he sees us. Mr. Gantenbein, I did a research paper for college once and I used the internet to my benefit, I created a questionnaire and put it out to those who were the subject of the paper. I "created" a base for my opinion, so I'm asking you to do the same. Obviously you have formed your judgement based on things you are familiar with, or what you have seen that has given you the perception that you have; so can you open your mind enough to widen that base a bit and hear from my brothers and sisters? Really listen to what they do and why? Brothers and sisters, can you lower the defenses just a bit to constructively give Mr. Gantenbein a better view of who we are and what we do?

I don't judge any profession on the bad apples, that's not right because the bad seeds make up such a small percentage of the whole; all I'm asking is that you don't judge us based on the "bad seeds" you have had the displeasure of witnessing. I think if you were to ask, NOT one of my brothers or sisters would ever ask to be called a hero. I'm a hero in my children's eyes, but not because I'm a firefighter, because I'm their Mom. I don't want to be viewed as a hero EVER, I do what I do because I truly enjoy giving back to my community. I don't need to be a hero, my satisfaction comes from within and I don't need outside validation.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm willing to reserve my judgement, I am willing to say "hey, you know what, this guy has been given wrong information", are you willing to see a different side?

PATF1engineer

11-03-2003, 01:55 PM

This was emailed to letters@slate.com and cnnsi@cnnsi.com

Gentlemen,

It is with complete disgust that I write this email. An article posted on slate.com which, apparently, was written by an individual affiliated with your organization is without a doubt the most personally offensive piece of trash I have ever read. For someone who pretends to be a legitimate journalist to write this type of slanderous, insulting, degrading and flat out inaccurate article reflects poorly on the type of individuals you have working for you.

I was recently involved in the type of "propaganda skills" that the author discusses. I served as part of an honor guard at the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Emmitsburg Maryland. My fire company was paying tribute to a life member of our department and personal friend of mine who died in a fire in his own house while saving the lives of his daughter and mother. I think he earned the right to be given this propaganda by giving his life to help others.

I will make sure to remember the part in the article about being an "adrenalin junkie" also next time I roll out of bed at 3:00 in the morning to go pry a drunk out of their car. I just hope I don't have to leave my wife and children without a husband and father while I am out getting my next fix.

God bless my fallen brothers and sisters.

Sincerely,

Thomas Anthony, P.E.
Captain, Adamsburg and Community VFD
Paramedic, Rescue 14 EMS
Structures Specialist, Pennsylvania Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue

Mward0

11-03-2003, 01:57 PM

Enroll in Doug's on-line business communications class:

Basic Written Business Communications
This course may be applied toward the Business Foundations Certificate.
B CMU 301 (W) Broad analytical approach to written communications as a management tool. Analysis of the psychology, semantics, planning, and principles of effective business writing. Practical application through messages that inform and persuade, grant and refuse; plus short business reports and applications for positions.
Register for # 3756 · B CMU C301
4 credits · Distance learning (view course introduction)
8 assignments; $604. Enroll anytime. Douglas Gantenbein, correspondent, The Economist.

http://www.extension.washington.edu.. .iz/business.asp

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 01:59 PM

Mike; Excellent post. That was exactly my point when cavemutt posted this guys poersonal info.

Plain and simple, there are people out there who don't like fire fighters. No one is required to like fire fighters. Inthe whole scheme of things, it is unrealistic to expect that everyone will throw their arms around us. Why is that so hard for some of you to accept?

There are a few points that he made that are true. First, there are a small minority of fire fighters who DO call themelves heroes and play off the schtick that was created around 9/11. Admittedly, most of the ones I have encountered (I interact with almost 50 FD's regularly) have been volunteer. But they are out there.

I also agree with some of the posters about the "cushy job" thing. The job appears to be cushy. Very few career guys complain about the job. Literally thousands of people line up to test for a job with few openings. It is that way because you love it. He misses the last point.

Instead of villifying this guy and giving him ammo for his arguments (bet on it...he will publish another piece about his expereinces after the article was published), why don't we step back and see if some of his criticisms might be warranted? It never hurts to take an introspective look at the inside.

But giving this guy ammo to allow him to paint himself as a victim is a mistake we should not make.

just5715

11-03-2003, 01:59 PM

To begin with let's focus on the person and not his comments.
1. If you visit his website you will find out that he is married to his wife who didn't even take his last name.
2. What guy says he lives with his lovely wife and two beagles. LBJ was the last guy to do that.
3. He works for Sports Illustrated. If they folded tomorrrow life would go on, if the Fire Service diminished by less than 5% tomorrow this coutry would come to a screeching halt.

He is probably very happy that he got all the professional firemen all p....ed off. But there in lies a problem. He doesn't realize that no matter how mad he makes us, if he or his lovely (different last name wife) are involved in a collision we will respond and give him the best care that he deserves because that is just how it works. Ask the guy that we pulled out of a flattened Peterbilt rock hauler last week how he feels. He's a happy man who could care less about whether we were BBQ'n, running an EMS call, sleeping, or washing that tax payers Engine. It is all relative. He enjoys a quality of life in this country because of Military, Police, EMS and FIRE. That doesn't mean is isn't capable of still making asinine comments. He is probably already irritating someone else.
Engine Co. 1 City of Marble Falls FD

firemanrobkfd

11-03-2003, 02:06 PM

mongoose772 , your comments about volunteers was very out of line and very , very degrading.....you are putting a very few people that are jolly whackers into a whole group....maybe we should reply and say that all career fireman are lazy slobs...that would probably cause some discussion...but i am not saying that..mostly because i know many and my best friend is one !! all i can say is that the volunteers i know are a very dedicated bunch...who don't get paid tto do what they love..and work a job 5-6 days a week !!! i think you should be cautious..there are a whole lot more of us than they are you !!!!!!

PFire23

11-03-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by firemanrobkfd
mongoose772 , your comments about volunteers was very out of line and very , very degrading.....you are putting a very few people that are jolly whackers into a whole group....maybe we should reply and say that all career fireman are lazy slobs...that would probably cause some discussion...but i am not saying that..mostly because i know many and my best friend is one !! all i can say is that the volunteers i know are a very dedicated bunch...who don't get paid tto do what they love..and work a job 5-6 days a week !!! i think you should be cautious..there are a whole lot more of us than they are you !!!!!!

Mongoose has already posted a retraction to his statement. Leave this horse lie and don't beat it any further.

rogers1431

11-03-2003, 02:23 PM

In response to D___head Gantenbein's article I will never buy another copy of Sports Illustrated, and I have emailed SI and informed them of my intent.

As for D___head Gantenbein, I will keep his remarks in mind when it is his turn as a victim. Perhaps when he is laying on the floor gasping for air he may consider changeing his opinion of Firefighters.

~R

Steamer

11-03-2003, 02:24 PM

I don't have the time, nor the energy to address all the people out there with this guy's attitude. I really don't care anymore. There's nothing you can do to change it, so what's the point?

All I can do is what is expected of me when the bell rings. Nothing more; nothing less. Everything else will fall into place. I don't expect or even want this guys approval. I know what I do when I'm at work, and on my days off. I have no guilt about what I do whatsoever.

I'm a Firefighter, and there's lightyears of difference in the pride and satisfaction I get out of that fact and what I could ever get from writing the kind of drivel contained in your "article". Again, I'm at peace with what I am, and what I do.

You, Mr. Gantenbein, aren't worth a good rant.

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 02:26 PM

firemanrobkfd

11-03-2003, 02:38 PM

i saw it after i posted it ..thank you...it still doesn't make it any better....but i will read a litle further next time into 50 posts of the exact same thing...hummmmmm

just5715

11-03-2003, 02:40 PM

Mr. Wendt,

The comments I made were my own and not representative of anthing or anyone else. Just the same as Mr. Gantenbein's were. The point I was trying to make is that he obviously can't actually mean or believe in what he is writing. He has some anger, pent-up hostility, and some sort of harbored resentment toward firefighter's and probably other public servants. His statements were reflective of a lack of understanding into the fire service. He is only partially educated in the ways of the fire service. Think of it this way. Would you go to a Doctor who is only familiar with less than 50% of what he is practicing? No you wouldn't, just as we professional firefighter's don't have to "go"(sttop) to Mr. Gantenbein's level. His comments don't really even deserve a response. It isn't that big of a deal.
Engineer, Eng Co. 1

PFire23

11-03-2003, 02:46 PM

JUST, you have just validified my point. We all agree that Mr. Gantenbein doesn't have a full or accurate understanding of the fire service, the question is WHAT ARE WE WILLING TO DO TO CHANGE HIS VIEW. Attacking him for his opinions isn't going to do it, posting his personal information isn't going to do it, getting angry isn't going to do it ....... c'mon guys WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS.

GeorgeWendtCFI

11-03-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by just5715
Mr. Wendt,

The comments I made were my own and not representative of anthing or anyone else. Just the same as Mr. Gantenbein's were. The point I was trying to make is that he obviously can't actually mean or believe in what he is writing. He has some anger, pent-up hostility, and some sort of harbored resentment toward firefighter's and probably other public servants. His statements were reflective of a lack of understanding into the fire service. He is only partially educated in the ways of the fire service. Think of it this way. Would you go to a Doctor who is only familiar with less than 50% of what he is practicing? No you wouldn't, just as we professional firefighter's don't have to "go"(sttop) to Mr. Gantenbein's level. His comments don't really even deserve a response. It isn't that big of a deal.
Engineer, Eng Co. 1

Nice try.

Your first sentence said "...lets focus on the person and not the comments".

Your points about his wife's name and the fact that he lives with two dogs couldn't possibly be related to what you just posted above. Your attempt at painting this guy as something less than we are because his wife chose to keep her maiden name and he has beagles is thinly veiled at best.

I'll say it agin...you guys are playing right into this guys hand.

Lewiston2Capt

11-03-2003, 02:57 PM

I received this article in an email from a friend of mine. At first I was angered over the content and misdirected slant of the article, but, then I thought about it, a few of the statements made in the article have some truth in them. I wont go into the specifics as it has already been done numerous times. Mr. Gantenbein has every right to state his opinion, he has and now we are reacting to it. In reacting to it I hope that the threats against Mr. Gantenbein and his family and property will end, we are only providing fodder for the next article as George said.
I think Artie summed my opinion on the matter up rather nicely, and without going off the deep end. If the debate must continue, lets try to keep it reasonable.

LFD102

11-03-2003, 03:02 PM

ResQ I have to agree with you fully. I was deployed to WTC as part of a FEMA team. I worked on the pile for 10 days now 2 years latter I use an inhaler for my lung problems associated to being at the WTC. But it's not a dangerous job!!!!!!!

Kobersteen

11-03-2003, 03:04 PM

I'll say it agin...you guys are playing right into this guys hand.

I can't argue with that.

What good is anyone doing by firing off inflammatory e-mails to him and the publications he writes for threatening their life and limb? "Wait until he needs us. We'll show him!" Right... just like the drunk guy who mowed down the kids at the bus stop, sometimes you have to rise above the situation... that what makes the good providers great.

I can see it now. The author is asked to justify his stand on firefighters and he pulls out reams of e-mails threatening to rip off his manhood. Check-mate.

Do I agree with the article? Not really, no. Do I think that oftentimes we are our own worst enemy? Absolutely.

PATF1engineer

11-03-2003, 03:06 PM

See me earlier post on this subject. This is the response I got back from Douglas Gantenbein, along with the original message:

[Never have I seen so many delicate toes. But thanks for the note!

dg

-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Anthony [mailto:patf1engineer@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:51 AM
To: cnnsi@cnnsi.com; letters@slate.com
Cc: doug@aseasonoffire.com
Subject: Current article on Slate.com

Gentlemen,

It is with complete disgust that I write this email. An article posted on slate.com which, apparently, was written by an individual affiliated with your organization is without a doubt the most personally offensive piece of trash I have ever read. For someone who pretends to be a legitimate journalist to write this type of slanderous, insulting, degrading and flat out inaccurate article reflects poorly on the type of individuals you have working for you.

I was recently involved in the type of "propaganda skills" that the author discusses. I served as part of an honor guard at the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Emmitsburg Maryland. My fire company was paying tribute to a life member of our department and personal friend of mine who died in a fire in his own house while saving the lives of his daughter and mother. I think he earned the right to be given this propaganda by giving his life to help others.

I will make sure to remember the part in the article about being an "adrenalin junkie" also next time I roll out of bed at 3:00 in the morning to go pry a drunk out of their car. I just hope I don't have to leave my wife and children without a husband and father while I am out getting my next fix.

God bless my fallen brothers and sisters.

Sincerely,

Thomas Anthony, P.E.
Captain, Adamsburg and Community VFD
Paramedic, Rescue 14 EMS
Structures Specialist, Pennsylvania Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue]

And my response to him was:

Delicate toes? You are a real piece of work.

You know what the difference is between you and me? No matter how much you degrade, insult or slander me or my brothers and sisters, I would still risk my life to help your sorry ass without giving it a second thought.

Here is a photograph I took at the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial. It has the names of 343 members of the Fire Department of New York who had "cushy" (your words, not mine) jobs on September 11, 2001.