damn

[blaze79]

Yesterday, I responded to a house fire. I was on attack, and my partner and I were sent to do ventilation. We were working on the front door when an officer smashed the picture window beside us. He moved the curtains aside and then yelled, "We've got a victim!!" We managed to get her out, but she was done. The medics managed to get a pulse, but soon after, she failed. This all happened while her son was in school.

The cause? She was smoking in bed, and fell asleep. She woke up when she realized her room was on fire, took a great big gulp of super-heated air, and died right by the front door.

What a waste...

[blaze79]

I just read what I wrote, and I think that I should tell you that the primary attack team had gone in the back of the house and discovered the fire. They were putting it out while all of this happened. And my partner and I didn't smash the window because we were told not to. That's it.

[EastKyFF]

Don't get so defensive! Somebody with a broad view of the scene is the person to go around smashing windows, not an interior crew that can't be sure what the effects will be. The officer who vented knew where the attack was, knew the status of PPV or other ventilation, and was outside to consider wind direction. Given those pieces, he/she felt it was safe to bust the window.

No problem! You and your partner did right, IMHO! Just make sure that everyone involved gets CISD care as needed. Sounds like you did your level best for the victim; sometimes it's just too late. One breath of that superheated air had already sealed her fate; you know that.

[blaze79]

oh, I wasn't trying to sound defensive. I just figured that somebody might think, "why didn't they go for the window first?" and I wanted to explain why.

I know we did the best we could. I'm proud of the way that the situation was handled. I just feel that this situation could've been prevented. Can't tell that I'm a rookie, huh? :p

[Temptaker]

Originally posted by blaze79
Can't tell that I'm a rookie, huh? :p

Oh no, it's BLAZINGLY obvious!

[StayBack500FT]

:D

[Airborne]

I'm very green so don't jump on my back about this, but I had a few questions. Concider this a chance to teach the less educated.


Knowing that people are creatures of routine when they face a situation like fire, one would have to assume that any victums in the house would have been making there way to the front door. This I know from class, as my instructor has stated this and said that he has found more then 1 person dead, at the front door.

Now it does sound like regardless that there would have been nothing that you could have done for this vic, but I have to wonder why no search team was sent in to search for a Vic, by the front door. I understand that the firs was in the back, and that is where the attack started, but what about search ans rescue.

Life Safety before incident stabalization right. I'm not trying to say anyone did anything wrong, just asking because this seems to go against what I have been taught.

[jaybird210]

Knowing that people are creatures of routine when they face a situation like fire, one would have to assume that any victums in the house would have been making there way to the front door.

Not necessarily true, Airborne. As we are creatures of habit, we will exit the way we normally always do, be it the front door, side door or back.

We have seen cases where people will try to run through the fire to get out the back door (the way they normally enter and exit the house) instead of the front, because they don't think of it as an exit.

This is also true of places of gathering. People will try to leave the way they came in, both as a factor of habit, and ignorance in not seeking alternative exits before an emergency begins.

I wouldn't be interested in arm-chair-quarterbacking this scenario. There is not enough information from not enough different points of view to say, It would've been better for you to have done this....

[Airborne]

Boy I'm sure glad that you are not my instructor.

Let's try this from another angle. And yes your are right there maybe more information needed and no I'm not trying to Arm Chair QB this one, I'm trying to learn from if because it does not follow what I have been taught. Since most people not all but most people use there front door, it would be a good place to start a Primary Search IMHO, if you disagree with this, then great please inform me why in a situation like this one would not start a primary search through the front door, excpesially if the back of the house is invlovled. If a person was thinking, then the front would be the place to head anyway right?

[Bones42]

Fire in the back, why not enter through the front and fight the fire from the undamaged side and push it back out the back? Where did this happen so we can get some information on it? Assuming (we all know what trouble that can cause) this was a normal house with front facing the street, I would be might unhappy with my crew if they dragged a hose all the way to the back of a house and started fighting the fire there, while the front was still closed up.

me thinks something is amiss and details are lacking...

[jaybird210]

Boy I'm sure glad that you are not my instructor.

What the f*** is that supposed to mean? I try to explain that there's more than one approach to this and that's the s****y reply you come back with? I sure am glad you're not one of my students.

Since most people not all but most people use there front door

On what are you basing this assumption? I will tell you that this is false. If I have no garage or no car, my main point of entery is the front door. If I have an attached garage, my normal point of entrance and egress is THE GARAGE. If my house is older, and the garage is in the back, my normal point of exit is the BACK. If I live in a farm house, I may very well have a couch across my front door. The descision on where to start your primary search should be based on a number of factors, some of which:

1) Time of day (bedrooms? kitchen? front room?).
2) Perceived layout of home (see statement above).
3) Prescence or absence of cars in garage or driveway, coupled with neighbor/witness reports.

I'm quite sure that Gonzo or E229lt or CJMinnick or any number of other experienced people can add extensively to this list, but it's a start.

why in a situation like this one would not start a primary search through the front door, excpesially [sic]if the back of the house is invlovled.

NO WHERE in blaze's post does she say the back of the house is one fire. This is what I referred to when I said there is not enough information to critique the tactics employed.


If a person was thinking, then the front would be the place to head anyway right?

The panic of just waking up and realizing "oh my God my house is on fire!" will preclude most normal thinking. Anyone who has been in a TRUE panic situation will tell you it is nearly impossible to think clearly.

It is obvious to me that you need to start a 2/20 Firefighters Club.

[Airborne]

Originally posted by Bones42
Fire in the back, why not enter through the front and fight the fire from the undamaged side and push it back out the back? Where did this happen so we can get some information on it? Assuming (we all know what trouble that can cause) this was a normal house with front facing the street, I would be might unhappy with my crew if they dragged a hose all the way to the back of a house and started fighting the fire there, while the front was still closed up.

me thinks something is amiss and details are lacking...

I would have to agree.


Jaybird I'm not srue what has your panties in a bunch, I'm not by any means trying to QB this situation, I'm jsut trying to have a better understanding of tactics when applied to a fire sceen.

I will agree with your assessment of the primary entrance used in most structures as you have laid them out.

The reason for my comment about being glad that you are not my instructor is because you seemed for what ever reason to be very reluctant, to use this situation as a chance to teach/learn. No on likes to have there fire sceen torn apart to find the areas where improvment may have been done, but all FireFighters have to take there time to learn from others mistakes rather then lerning these first hand, if there are mistakes.

When I hear back door I think of a structure such as the one that I live in. Being in the Burbs the ront door would be about 20 Feet from the street and the back would be the sliding one on my Patio. So in this type of structure I would imagin that Primary search and hose team would be going in the front door, unless there was some reason such as a wall of flames to stop them from going in.

So the first lesson for my self in this case would be to not assume that all people use there front door as there primary entrance and exit.

So now that next question I have on this one, is this. If the back door is assumed to be the primary entrance ot the structure and that is where the fire is found, would you then not want to send a Secoundary search team in to search the rest of the house, through another entrance so that the primary can fight the fire.

[Ohiovolffemtp]

Folks,
I think we're spiraling into a flame war here and missing the point of Blaze's initial post.

A fire death is a tough thing for responders - we give it our all and sometimes the situation is so bad the victim is already dead or fatally injured. Especially for a rookie who's trying hard and hasn't seen much tragedy, that's a very upsetting thing. EastKY's point about CISD for everyone involved in the response is dead on.

From a 20+ year person, Blaze, I'm sure you did your best. I'd be very surprised if your victim wasn't already fatally injured if not dead. Please take some solace that you gave them whatever chance was possible. Please take more solace in the fact that in the course of your career you will help many people - most of them not in life threatening situations - but all still in need.

Airborne & the rest of the folks arguing about methods - it wasn't Blaze's intent to provide enough information for a critique. We simply don't know enough to evaluate what was done. Sometimes the best way to protect life is to directly attack the fire to reduce heat & smoke production. Sometimes you don't attack the fire and go straight to search & rescue. We can identify things to consider, like Jaybird has done. We can't apply those considerations to this incident - we weren't there.

All of us need to speak to each other with respect. The new folks need to respect the older ones for what they've learned over the years. The older folks need to respect the new ones for their desire to learn.


Steps off soapbox & leaves to teach EMT class. Hopes folks take message to heart.

[NHFYRMAN]

Airborne,

Sarcastic lead off's like you did while telling us you are in rookie school is not a good way to win over the jakes.

We have a forum entitled "Firefighting tactics" Think you might find more of an appropriate forum there than a thread titled "damn" regarding your questions of interior operations?

First impressions are lasting ones. Your a FNG. Don't loose sight of that. I'd bet if you posted a question on tactics relating to fire behavior when arriving on scene you'd get a better response from the smoke eaters.


Semper Fi
Kenny

[Airborne]

NHFYRMAN

First off I'm Green not just some rookie Student. Secound off I stated that not as being sarcastic but because I was trying to furthure my understanding and education. I was not aware that education and learning would restricted to one forum or another.

I saw something in the first post that I did not understand so I thought I would ask about it. I'm here to learn and have a better understanding to make my self a better FireFighter. I was not pushing blame on anyone, and I sympatize with blaze79 that she had to be the one to find this lady.

I'm starting to see more and more that this may not be the best place to learn things, with the way everyone jumps on eachother from the simpelest questions. Any other words of Wisdom you would like to educate me with NHFYRMAN.

[jaybird210]

I'm starting to see more and more that this may not be the best place to learn things,

No this is NOT the best place to learn things. That place is in YOUR house, with YOUR fellow firefighters. There is a great deal to be learned here, but this is not the best resource.

Any other words of Wisdom you would like to educate me with NHFYRMAN.


What would be the point? You already know everything you need to know.

Ya know, ohio is right. I am standing down.

[Anyway]

Lesson number 1

1) Never say something always happens this way, because it won't.
2) Don't say something never happens this way, because it will.
3) Never tell a victim they will be ok, because they won't be.
4) Never tell a victim they are going to die, because they won't.

Those are the rules I give the first day of ALL of my classes - EMT or FF.

And after 15 years, they still hold true.

[mcaldwell]

I agree with Ohio, this thread is not place to argue this.

Everyone needs a way to deal with Critical Incident Stress and for rookies, it is usually talking with the senior crew, or in places like this.

Blaze,

Take Ohio's words to heart, and know you did your best. It may or may not have been your first, and it may not be your last, but as long as you give it a 100% every time you can hold your head high and be proud.

The only persons fate that we hold in our hands is our own.

[MikeF25]

Ohio,

Thank you for getting this thread back on track.

Blaze, like everyone has said you did your best be proud of that.
I also recommend CISD for all of those involved, it is a tough situation here's hoping this is your last.

[RspctFrmCalgary]

Blaze where are you from? I thought I saw you mention Edmonton, and a small town. I'm from a small town in Alberta myself, we could be neighbors.

[ChiefReason]

Maybe it's the fireground management coming out in me, but you have blessed us with a scenario that I think we can all learn from.
First; you were on the attack team, but were sent to do ventilation. Vertical or horizontal? An officer smashed the window. Fire or police officer? If you were at the front door, why was the door not opened/forced? If you arrived at the front of the house upon arrival,
since the front was uninvolved, why wasn't entry made there? If you were sent to ventilate, why did the officer smash the window? Why did they attack the fire from the rear and risk pushing it into the uninvolved portion of the house. You ventilate near the fire. Why were you at the front door? Had crew two already made their attack, before ventilation? Have you heard of VES? Vent-Enter-Search? The time of the day should have indicated that maybe someone was home, so the decision to search should have been determined while enroute.
Notice that I haven't mentioned the victim? That's because I know NOTHING about it. The position of the body, location, suspected cause of death, the things leading up to the fire, cause of the fire; there are no details here that could help me.
But the tactics: there is plenty there which leads me to my questions.
And I don't buy in to the idea EVER that we "did everything we could". That is like saying "we did everything RIGHT". I believe that there is ALWAYS something that we could have done better; no matter how small. We do everything that we can to mitigate an incident. We rely on what we learn. The outcome may not be what is desired, because there are some things that we cannot control. So we look for those things and work on them for the next time. We get our mental and physical health back in order and get ready for the next one. We have to keep our focus, train and learn from each real experience.
And never assume anything which brings me to the comment made by Airborne. You said that most people enter and exit through their front door. That is patently false. Maybe it is true where you live, but not where I live. People would have to park on the street in front of their house for that to be true. It just so happens that I enter and exit my house at the REAR because that is where my garage is. I don't know too many people who have a garage in front of their house. You continue to think that you will find most of your victims by the front door. But my guess is that you will miss the ones by the back door, the hallways, the bedrooms, the basements.....
Making assumptions can be a nightmare. The only thing that I assume is the "position" when I'm wrong!
CR

[Steamer]

posted by Bones42: me thinks something is amiss and details are lacking...
My brother from NJ is right. Something's not right. I'm interested in the layout of the house, and where the victim was found versus where the fire started. Any burns on the vic? If so where? Lot of other questions too.

Could you give a link to a newspaper article for us to read, or at least go into some detail. If they don't have a link to the net, give me a paper name and address, please. I'd like to order a copy of the paper. Better yet, a phone number to call to order a copy of the paper so I can get a copy. If you can get me this info, I will follow up. I do it all the time, as some here can attest.

I love following up on these kinds of "fires". They provide so much "educational opportunity", and can be real "gems". I have a feeling that this may be one of those all too common "gems".

Let's see if we can "root out" the "answers" to some of the "questions" we've all posted. (Damn, I love quotation marks. ;);) )

[Airborne]

ChiefReason

Finnly, You are right I was making an assumption. Liek I stated in my first post, I'm green, sure I know the book and what I have been told by my instructors, but I know just like the military that what happens on the job may be far diffrent from how one may have learned it.

I was trying to use this case to understand something that now I'm understanding. First I think that we all will agree that a Victum will most likley try to exit the house through the door that they use most often. Where my education in this is that not all people use there front door, and I have been given many things to look for in having a better understanding on what door maybe the one that is used most often.

I'm glad that some one was willing to use this as an opertunity to learn, and help give me some more understanding and knowladge, that was all that I was asking for.

I to would be intreasted in learning mroe about this, if blaze79 is willing to share, but I would understand if you do not want to. I think that it is important that we learn from each other, one will never gain to much knowladge about anything.

[blaze79]

Oh boy. I appreciate all of your support. This is only my second fatal, so it was a bit of a shock. But I held up my head, knowing that we did the best we could. And as for the woman, she was already dead when we got to her. Nothing could be done to make her breathe again, but we did try.

And for all of you that are questioning the tactics that we did use:

We had an engine in the front and an engine in the back. The first attack/search team had gone in the back, doing a right search. The discovered the fire in the bedroom, and being instructed that another search team was going in the front door, they attacked the flames. I was part of the second attack team going in the front. We had to get the door open to ventilate, and that's when the victim was discovered. I think that we did everything we needed to do, and did it well.

[Airborne]

Blaze,

Thanks for the response, yes this does make more sense at least to a Rookie like me. It sounds like you where performing 2 Attacks/Searches.

If I'm understanding you correct then there must be an Alley in the back of the resident, is there a detached Garage also in the back? Which Engine was first on scene, and was it evident what portion of the house that the seat of the fire was located at?

Again I'm not trying to say that anything was done wrong, I'm just trying to understand the approach used and why it was used. I think that I'm starting to get a clear picture that is making sense.

[ChiefReason]

A truck in front of the house? And a truck in back of the house?
Was this house bordered at front and rear by roads, alleys, drivings?
So, you had a team go in the front door and a team attacking the fire going in the back door?
OK, Fire Kids, here's my question: Where will the Rear Team attacking the fire, push the fire?
And since the ventilation question was missed, I'll ask again: why was a window next to a door smashed and on the opposite side of the fire?
OK, Fire Kids, here's another one: Usually, where will the fire go when you ventilate?

blaze79 wrote: We had to get the door open to ventilate, and that's when the victim was discovered. I think that we did everything we needed to do, and did it well.
In your earlier post, you said that an officer smashed a window in the front and that's who said "we have a victim".
Here's the point of my concern: V-E-S. You said that the first attack team from the rear of the house, attacked the fire and entered to search going to the right.
You have the entire uninvolved front of the house that was a perfect entry point for both attack and search. You take the windows in the vicinity of the fire and you have vent, enter and search. If vent hadn't been done on the affected side of the house, then YOU vented when you opened the door or smashed the window; whatever was done there. So, did your attack/rescue team discover the victim when you entered the house or did the officer who broke the window make the discovery?
And why didn't I read about this on the fire wire service? Can you give me a day, date and time so I can look it up? Just curious.
CR

[blaze79]

Airborne:

Yes, there was an alley behind the residence, and the second engine pulled up there. The garage was attached. The location of the fire was not evident from the front of the house, and I'm not aware if it was evident in the back. The windows were black, and the smoke very dense, making initial visibility very low. Once we started ventilating, visibility greatly improved.

We always have two attack teams (unless we need more) and usually three search teams, with another team on standby. The primary search teams go in, conducting right and left searches. When all obvious victims are taken out, the third team goes in, doing a secondary search. The team on standby is our backup, just in case we need assistance.

[Bones42]

Ok, making a little more sense.

The second engine went to the rear, but the first attack/search team was from that engine going in the rear. So the first engine would have been in front, but they were not the first attack/search team - they were assigned to ventilate?

blaze, please don't feel as though you are being attacked for what you did, you are not. Anyone who can post an actual fire scene here offers it up for discussion. A lot of us will ask questions and offer opinions, not to judge what was done by the company, but to use it as learning/teaching experiences. We pass this information on to our members and discuss with them also. Again, it's a learning experience and we thank you for all the information you can provide.

Some of these posts may seem like attacks at you and your department, and that is not the intent. Keep replying with as much info as you can.

[StayBack500FT]

[i]And why didn't I read about this on the fire wire service? Can you give me a day, date and time so I can look it up? Just curious.
CR [/B]


Can you hook us up with a place where we can check out the info for ourselves? Perhaps another source will provide us with a different perspective. Where are you at in Canada?

[StayBack500FT]

Cheep.........cheep......cheep cheep...tweet....cheeep...twee t....tweet...cheeeeepcheeepche eep....tweet.....cheeptweeet.. ...


Funny....all I hear are birds now??????

[StayBack500FT]

Wait.....no.....perhaps those are crickets??? I can't tell.

[ChiefReason]

HELLO?
BLAZE79?
Airborne; what's the deal with blaze? I wasn't even sarcastic and she blows right by me and answers you. When everyone else was being mean and insensitive, I stayed out.
Then, when I ask a few simple questions; questions that rookies, probies and newbies should be able to answer if they have been paying attention in class, she ignores me.
Since that's the route she has taken, I'll take a different route.
I'm getting off this bus. It's going nowhere.
I have a fire district to run.
Thanks, Bonesy. Going there now.
CR

[Temptaker]

Blaze I suggest if you were not there you come straight out and admit it. There is A LOT of inconsistency in your post about the fire and the fatality. I have spoken to the FC Office, and they are calling me back later on today, and they WILL confirm details of the incident.

I also suggest IF you were actually there, you take the advice of the firefighters who have told you to go to CISD. In my opinion, there are aspects of your post which indicate you aren't dealing with the fatality. That presents a problem for you and for your crew.

IF you want to talk to me about it privately you are welcome to email me. IF you want to be put in contact with CISD that isn't directly related to your dept, because you are afraid that someone will think less of you because you are a woman and you need to talk about it, I can also help you with that. Being there an not dealing with it, is putting your crew in a situation which is not acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.

The people who have posted in response to you in this thread, have literally seen hundreds if not thousands of fatalities if you added them all together. Take their advise! You might not think it is affecting you, but you would be wrong.

[blaze79]

Hey guys. Sorry it took so long to reply. Everyone calm down. I didn't mean to "blow anybody off". I WAS AT THE FIRE. I WAS ON THE STANDBY ATTACK TEAM. THE REASON THAT THE WINDOW WAS SMASHED IS BECAUSE WE HAD TROUBLE GETTING THE DOORS OPEN. THE OUTSIDE DOOR HAD A STEEL INTERIOR AND WE TOOK A WHILE TO GET THE DOOR OPEN, THUS THE FIRE OFFICER SMASHED THE WINDOW. THE VICTIM WAS DISCOVERED. WE GOT THE DOOR OPEN AND THE SEARCH TEAM WENT IN AND DRAGGED HER OUT.

THE FIRST ATTACK TEAM WENT IN THE BACK, DISCOVERED THE FIRE, AND KNOWING THAT THE OTHER ATTACK TEAM WAS NOT IN THE HOUSE YET, THEY ATTACKED IT.

AS FOR INCONSISTENCIES, I APOLOGIZE. I'M NOT CLEAR ON ALL THE ASPECTS OF WHAT HAPPENED AT THE BACK OF THE HOUSE.

I KNOW THAT WE DIDN'T DO EVERYTHING RIGHT. BUT WE TRIED THE BEST WE COULD. ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ALL DO??

GO AHEAD AND CONFIRM THE DETAILS. DO YOU WANT MY CHIEF'S NUMBER SO YOU CAN CHECK IF I WAS THERE??

BY THE WAY, WE DID A DEBRIEFING WITHIN OUR DEPARTMENT. WE ALWAYS DO AFTER A FATALITY.

Y'all finished now? :p

[blaze79]

ALSO, ALL THE DOORS WERE LOCKED, AND THERE WAS NO VEHICLES IN THE GARAGE OR IN THE DRIVEWAY. WE ALWAYS ASSUME SOMEONE IS IN THE HOUSE, THOUGH.

[Bones42]

Blaze, take a breath, relax.

When the first team entered the back, was there fire right there, or was it around the corner and they ended up coming from the side of the fire or such? You would not want them pushing the fire towards you. If it were to the side, they would not be doing that. Just asking questions.

[Temptaker]

Do I want your Chief's number? NO I probably already have it. I'll say it again. IF you were there, you need to talk about it more, or you can walk around in denial, and wait to crash. The choice is yours. I just hope in making that choice you take the lives of your brothers into consideration. My query to the FC office was to get accurate details of the incident, because the details you have given have changed several times, and there are still inconsistencies related to how the woman died and where she was found.

Are you finished yelling now? I fail to see why you are getting defensive. The people here want to help you, and keep their brothers alive. Their questions were nothing more then an attempt to get clarification of what happened.

[ChiefReason]

Posted by blaze79:
I was on attack, and my partner and I were sent to do ventilation. We were working on the front door when an officer smashed the picture window beside us. He moved the curtains aside and then yelled, "We've got a victim!!" We managed to get her out, but she was done.
the primary attack team had gone in the back of the house and discovered the fire. They were putting it out while all of this happened. And my partner and I didn't smash the window because we were told not to.
I was part of the second attack team going in the front. We had to get the door open to ventilate, and that's when the victim was discovered.
Once we started ventilating, visibility greatly improved.
We always have two attack teams (unless we need more) and usually three search teams, with another team on standby. The primary search teams go in, conducting right and left searches. When all obvious victims are taken out, the third team goes in, doing a secondary search. The team on standby is our backup, just in case we need assistance.
I WAS AT THE FIRE. I WAS ON THE STANDBY ATTACK TEAM.
Does anyone else see my problem here?
No? Maybe I'm jealous of people who can be in two places at once.
Or is that called "multi-tasking"?
OK; that's it. This is definitely my last post.
I only came over here to see what Tempie posted anyway.
POOF!
CR

[blaze79]

Forget it. I wrote this post so I could relive it, and feel better. I didn't write it so somebody can question they way we handled it. I don't care if you think that I wasn't there, because I know that I was, and I know what happened. I didn't write this so I could be critiqued in every aspect. I hate this. Why do you have to try and make me look like I'm a moron? You weren't there. You don't know what happened. I do. Give me a break. Please.

[SmokeyNY]

Blaze, please PM me. I am not out to criticize you or your department in any way.

[Bones42]

CR, I'm missing your point. Blaze was on the second attack team trying to make entry through the front door. Primary attack team entered through rear of structure. In the process of working on forcing the door, a Fire Officer broke a window to ventilate, saw a victim. Where is the two places at once?

[SmokeyNY]

I was wondering the same thing Bones42.

[CJMinick390]

Time out! I think everyone needs to take a step back and a few deep breaths on this one. Blaze, if you want to talk, that's fine. We're here to listen. Just try to calm down and lose the attitude a little, that's all. That's why you got off on the wrong foot with the crusties based on your posts on other threads. Guys, we were all new once. Let's try not to be so confrontational when we're dealing with what could be a really emotionally trying incident for someone.

[dfdex1]

Originally posted by blaze79
The windows were black, and the smoke very dense, making initial visibility very low. Once we started ventilating, visibility greatly improved.


Ok I dont got years of expierince so can you explain this to me.
You say that the windows were blackend out and your job of venting was to open the front door.
Now I have been taught that blackend windows with dense smoke are a sign of a potential backdraft. So why didnt you pick up on that and go around opening doors and breaking windows? :confused:


-dfd

[Giffordd]

To sum it up short it was Damn, someone lost their life because they fell asleep while smoking. A very preventable accident that ended someones life. Blaze79 just wanted to talk about it. At least that is how I read it. Now being the individuals that we are yes we want to know everything we can about any call that comes up in these posts. What is important is that we dont lose sight of why the comment was posted. We can always go over tactics, procedures and the reasons for actions. However can any of you tell me what Blaze79 wanted to talk about specifically when it came to this call? EastkyFF very well may be on the right track. We shouldnt be so jumpy and start acusing others so quick either. Regardless of years running we will mess up. Airborne I think you had a good question just the wrong time. Dont be discouraged to ask when you dont understand. Sometimes people just need to pull their head out of their fourth point of contact. Jaybird was not trying to attack you just give you some advice. Don't be so defensive just replace front door to door of normal entry. :D His comment was not on tactics as he said he was not going to arm-chair this one. Just a bit of advice. Take care and be safe to you all. Blaze79 I hope you have been able to get the response you were looking for in this thread.

[ChiefReason]

Bonesy and Smokey:
Two places at once? Her story hit a sour note with me right off the bat when she said and I am paraphrasing here, "she was dead when we got there....." Really? And just how would we know that?
Second; each time she responded- particularly to the ones who were chortling their praises to her-the "tactics" and her role at the fire scene changed. Go back to my last post where I quoted her statements. She was on the second attack team. Then she finished up by saying that she was on the back up team. I assume by "back up", she means RIT? I don't know. I couldn't get her to talk about tactics.
The first team went to the back of the house and started spraying water and "searching right and left". Bad move. The entire front of the house was uninvolved: a very good place to start a search if the attack team wasn't pushing fire towards you. They vented AWAY from the fire in the uninvolved portion of the house. Again; bad move. Fire will go to the vent; in this case, the uninvolved portion where the victim was found. Am I armchair quarterbacking? NO! I am taking her statements and analyzing them and then I attempted to discuss it. She didn't want to talk about the emotional effects of the deceased. She exhibits no psychological red flags from the incident. She did not want to talk about that. She wanted to talk about we they did at the scene. She said that they did a debrief. Great! But based on her desire to want to talk about the activities and not the deceased victim, I felt compelled to ask those types of questions.
If all's she wanted to hear was "you did the best that you could", she got that from some of you. She will not get that from me, because based on what she posted, there were things that could have been done differently. Chances are, nothing would change the outcome for the victim, but who knows? As she said to me; I wasn't there. But I also disagree with that statement. In my 22 years on the fire department, I was "THERE" plenty of times. She came in here talking about tactics. That's where I focused. I apologize for not lending a sympathetic ear. I didn't think that it was sympathy she was looking for. I thought she wanted to learn.
Sorry.
CR

[ARFF26]

I haven't seen everyone so riled up since beerboy. I'm guessing that Blaze probably won't be inducted into the WOT.

[Giffordd]

ChiefReason: I think you just nailed it. In general there seems to be a position of some people feeling offended when others what to give advice or help. To me Blaze never really stated what the purpose of the post was, Airborne started to ask about tactics, then got upset when advice was given. I looked through some of the other threads and I can see where the difference of experience are prevalent.

Blaze79: What did you want to talk about specificlly?




By the way...
Airborne: How long were you on status?

[jaybird210]

Something continued to bother me. I just today finally had some time to check it out.

Airborne, ealier in this thread you said this:
NHFYRMAN

First off I'm Green not just some rookie Student.

Sure. You've been a volunteer firefighter for over 100 days now (109 at least, counting today). Where on earth did I get a silly notion like this? From an earlier thread, where you said: I just Signed up with my Local FD and I have not even started Training yet

The date on that post is 1/08/03.

Here's the thread in case you forgot (it's on page three):
Paid volunteers...are they really volunteers? (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44559)

Now, call me nutty, but most places, including most volunteer departments, consider you a "rookie," or a "probie," or a "plebe," for at least ONE YEAR.
But I guess since you've completed your basic firefighter training, you've graduated from "rookie" to "green." They've probably seen your exemplary deducing and size-up skills, and promoted you to at least assistant chief by now.

I was wrong about you joining a 2/20 firefighters club. It should be a 3/20 firefighters club. Sorry for the error.

[Airborne]

Jaybird, you know what your an *******.

I never denied that I was new at this. That infact was why I was asking questions. I thought that I clearly stated up fromt that I was green, and did not have alot of Experiance, and that I was tring to apply what I have been taught, to what I did not understand about this scene. I'm not sure what your ****ing issue, is, yes I'm new to this, I have been on the department for about 5 monthes give a week or two. I have been in class 2 nights a week 4-5 hours a night. I aced my class, I aced my state certs. Again I'm green I do not have alot of practical experiance. That pal is why I was asking questions and not telling her I thought that she should have done this or done that.

I don't need to go back and look up other post of yours to know that your an ass. You don't like it to bad, you want some respect, to bad, you have not earned it from me, and don't think that just because you have been around for a while that you some how just deserve it. I'm doing what I can to be th best FireFighter I can, and I know that in order to do that I have to learn from not only my mistakes, and success but others also. I know that I have to take what I have learned and apply it, and see how it trully applies and how it really works. Belive it or not I have learned alot from this thread, and a little from you. I would have been nice to not have to put up with your attitude in the process but then I guess that is life.

[jaybird210]

Airborne, I wasn't going to reply to your rambling unorganized diatribe, but... okay, I will:

First off, I never accused you of not being green; I never accused you of not saying you weren't. But my previous post shows that this is not what you said. I do not like people presenting themselves to be something they are not.

Secondly; I opted not to address blaze's issues here because, as I first said, there is clearly not enough information. I use real calls all the time as training tools; we learn more from these than anywhere else. But I refuse to make a ton of assumptions. For example, the running assumption for some time has been that the fire was in the back of the structure. We still don't know this for sure, as blaze still has not necessarily clarified this point. She only said the crew entering the rear found the fire first (was it at the back? Was it in a bedroom?) We don't know for sure what tactics they were using; to read her post, it is easy to assume that they had a crew going in the back and trying to go in the front. On first glance, this would appear to be a huge tactical error (opposing hose streams); but her subsequent posts imply that this is not necessarily an accurate picture. These are two examples I can pull off the top of my head as reasons why I chose not to explore this incident. I stated this was my position ("Not enough information from not enough different points of view>").

You said you were glad I was not your instructor. I took exception to that, and told you so.

Now you hurt my feelings and call me names. No, I don't like it. I think you're a meanie.

But let me tell you this, mister, and in no uncertain terms: You say I have not earned your respect? What delusionary psychosis do you suffer from that makes you think for a second I care if you respect me or not? I couldn't care less what you think of me. Who the hell are you to me? Nobody: a faceless name on some message board. Big deal. Gee, I think now I'll go cut my wrists because some dude going by the name of Airborne from Minnesota doesn't respect me. Boo-Hoo. You were an illiterate boob when you started here, and nothing has changed.

[Airborne]

Originally posted by jaybird210
I do not like people presenting themselves to be something they are not.



And explain to me how I did this?

Next time you jump all over a person for trying to learn something maybe you should take a step back and think about it for a few more secounds. It is rare in this day and age that people take it on themselves to learn, don't stand in there way, etheir help or get out of there way.

[Weruj1]

fellas.....................slo w down ........ put the dukes away before you get in trouble..........Airborne you got some learnin to do and Jay I got your back ...........now settle down some before the WT police arrive on the scene ..........

[Weruj1]

IS BLAZE ???????? got kinda quiet in here ........... on the subject of discussion .......over ,,,,,,,,,,,,, ?

[ChiefReason]

Well, I have watched this thread degenerate into name calling, so I will step in to offer this:
How did all of this get started? It got started by a young poster, who in her short history has posted some very “cute” words of wisdom; replete with sexual innuendo.
She has also stated in previous posts that she wants to learn. But then, by the end, she stated that she DID NOT want to learn. She stated that she wants to “relive her experiences”.
Several of you jumped in and offered your pats on the back for an incident that is more of a mystery than an incident. Still no news story of it. And the lack of details from the thread starter casts shadows of doubt in many directions. And in the process, factions have started to fight. Greenies/newbies/probies are taking on jakes. And it’s all over a person who says that an incident occurred in which there was a fatality(as yet, unconfirmed) and that she was there(I question this based on her posts).
Read for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Blaze79 wrote:
Yesterday, I responded to a house fire. I was on attack, and my partner and I were sent to do ventilation. We were working on the front door when an officer smashed the picture window beside us. He moved the curtains aside and then yelled, "We've got a victim!!" We managed to get her out, but she was done. The medics managed to get a pulse, but soon after, she failed. This all happened while her son was in school.
The cause? She was smoking in bed, and fell asleep. She woke up when she realized her room was on fire, took a great big gulp of super-heated air, and died right by the front door.
What a waste...
Blaze79 wrote:
I just read what I wrote, and I think that I should tell you that the primary attack team had gone in the back of the house and discovered the fire. They were putting it out while all of this happened. And my partner and I didn't smash the window because we were told not to. That's it.
Blaze79 wrote:
I know we did the best we could. I'm proud of the way that the situation was handled. I just feel that this situation could've been prevented. Can't tell that I'm a rookie, huh?

Now; based on the limited information in her posts, here is how some of you responded. I omitted names.

No problem! You and your partner did right, IMHO!

Blaze, I'm sure you did your best.

Airborne & the rest of the folks arguing about methods - it wasn't Blaze's intent to provide enough information for a critique.

I sympatize with blaze79 that she had to be the one to find this lady.

Take Ohio's words to heart, and know you did your best. It may or may not have been your first, and it may not be your last, but as long as you give it a 100% every time you can hold your head high and be proud.

Blaze, like everyone has said you did your best be proud of that.
I also recommend CISD for all of those involved, it is a tough situation here's hoping this is your last.

I assume that you are all just offering your opinions, because from the information posted, we don’t know for sure.

Blaze79 wrote:
Oh boy. I appreciate all of your support. This is only my second fatal, so it was a bit of a shock. But I held up my head, knowing that we did the best we could. And as for the woman, she was already dead when we got to her. Nothing could be done to make her breathe again, but we did try.
Blaze79 wrote:
I KNOW THAT WE DIDN'T DO EVERYTHING RIGHT. BUT WE TRIED THE BEST WE COULD. ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ALL DO??
Blaze79 wrote:
Forget it. I wrote this post so I could relive it, and feel better. I didn't write it so somebody can question they way we handled it.

Now; I don’t mean to nitpick, but here is one of my major problems; blaze79 wrote in her very first post that, and I quote "We've got a victim!!" We managed to get her out, but she was done. The medics managed to get a pulse, but soon after, she failed. This all happened while her son was in school.
The cause? She was smoking in bed, and fell asleep. She woke up when she realized her room was on fire, took a great big gulp of super-heated air, and died right by the front door.
Then she wrote and I quote And as for the woman, she was already dead when we got to her. Nothing could be done to make her breathe again, but we did try.

With the confusion about the purpose of the post, the need for CISD and the tactics employed, tempers start to flare.

Jaybird210 wrote:
quote:
Knowing that people are creatures of routine when they face a situation like fire, one would have to assume that any victums in the house would have been making there way to the front door.
Not necessarily true, Airborne. As we are creatures of habit, we will exit the way we normally always do, be it the front door, side door or back.

We have seen cases where people will try to run through the fire to get out the back door (the way they normally enter and exit the house) instead of the front, because they don't think of it as an exit.

This is also true of places of gathering. People will try to leave the way they came in, both as a factor of habit, and ignorance in not seeking alternative exits before an emergency begins.

I wouldn't be interested in arm-chair-quarterbacking this scenario. There is not enough information from not enough different points of view to say, It would've been better for you to have done this....

So far, so good. Jay is offering perspective. Enter Airborne’s responses.

Airborne wrote:
Boy I'm sure glad that you are not my instructor.

Jaybird I'm not srue what has your panties in a bunch, I'm not by any means trying to QB this situation, I'm jsut trying to have a better understanding of tactics when applied to a fire sceen.

The reason for my comment about being glad that you are not my instructor is because you seemed for what ever reason to be very reluctant, to use this situation as a chance to teach/learn. No on likes to have there fire sceen torn apart to find the areas where improvment may have been done, but all FireFighters have to take there time to learn from others mistakes rather then lerning these first hand, if there are mistakes.

There are attempts by others to add clarity.

NHFYRMAN wrote:
Sarcastic lead off's like you did while telling us you are in rookie school is not a good way to win over the jakes.

Airborne states his desire to learn.

Airborne wrote:
First off I'm Green not just some rookie Student. Secound off I stated that not as being sarcastic but because I was trying to furthure my understanding and education. I was not aware that education and learning would restricted to one forum or another.

I'm starting to see more and more that this may not be the best place to learn things, with the way everyone jumps on eachother from the simpelest questions. Any other words of Wisdom you would like to educate me with NHFYRMAN.

Airborne offers his thanks to blaze79 for clearing things up…..in his mind.

Airborne wrote:
Blaze,
Thanks for the response, yes this does make more sense at least to a Rookie like me.

Some are starting to see what I had been saying all along.

Giffordd wrote:
ChiefReason: I think you just nailed it. In general there seems to be a position of some people feeling offended when others what to give advice or help. To me Blaze never really stated what the purpose of the post was, Airborne started to ask about tactics, then got upset when advice was given. I looked through some of the other threads and I can see where the difference of experience are prevalent.

Blaze79: What did you want to talk about specificlly?

By the way...
Airborne: How long were you on status?

So, it brings us to this juncture; where the boys are fightin’ over what the girl said…..or not!

Jaybird210 wrote:
Something continued to bother me. I just today finally had some time to check it out.

Jay has always been known for his research.

Airborne wrote:
Jaybird, you know what your an *******.

Airborne has always been known for understating what is abundantly clear!

Jaybird210 wrote:
Now you hurt my feelings and call me names. No, I don't like it. I think you're a meanie.
You were an illiterate boob when you started here, and nothing has changed.

Jaybird DOES have feelings that can be easily hurt.

Airborne wrote:
Next time you jump all over a person for trying to learn something maybe you should take a step back and think about it for a few more secounds. It is rare in this day and age that people take it on themselves to learn, don't stand in there way, etheir help or get out of there way.

Just like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George are pitching a show to NBC, this thread is about NOTHING! Gentlemen; save your good stuff for a topic worthy of hot debate. This isn’t one of them. All’s blaze79 wanted was a pat on the back; a thumb’s up; you know, the old “you’re a female firefighter that puts many of us men to shame” type of pep talk. And you know what; I don’t care anymore whether or not she was or wasn’t there. The important thing is that she started a thread and got us to buy in. She got me to respond four times, even though she failed to answer most of my questions, but boy, did she fire back when someone told her what a great job she did. Because that’s exactly what she was looking for.
This thread is not worth all of the acrimony. I make a motion that we mend fences and move on. And one other thing:

ARFF 26 wrote:
I'm guessing that Blaze probably won't be inducted into the WOT.

You got that straight, Skippy!

CR

[Weruj1]

ten four Chief !

[Airborne]

I'm going to do something that I don't do often, and I know I should do more. Jaybird, I'm sorry that I jump on you, I felt on one hand you validated what I was trying to figure out, as far as human nature, but then on the other I felt that you where jumping on me because I was "QB this situation".

I'm by no means a young man, but I'm very new to FF, and I'm trying my damdest to learn as much as I can, so when the meat, hits the metal, I'm as best prepared as I can be.

So I'm sorry that I jumped on you, we all can't be alike as far as the times we pick to train, but that was no excuse for me to jump on you like that.

[Weruj1]

GOOD GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!! what is happening here ? people apologizing >? man .......... these forums are starting to shape up ...... nice post Airborne ! no sarcasm intended ..........

[IACOJRev]

poking head out from behind sofa
Is it safe to come out now?

[StayBack500FT]

Splats Rev in the face with a cream pie...


Ummm...I'm guessing ..no?:D

[LadyCapn]

mmmmmmmmmmmm banana cream, my favourite!!!! It's okay Rev, I'll lick it off if you like?:p

[IACOJRev]

:eek: Lady, are you hitting on me? My wife won't let me come back to the forum if she finds out the babes are chasing me (she doesn't mind the Hairy Monkey Chicks).

I'll just go to the sink and wash my face, but thank you for your kindness.

Stayback... you'd better sleep with one eye open tonight... the boogie man is comin' to your house tonight!

[blaze79]

I didn't have all of the facts of the fire. It happens. A lot of times, some firefighters are so involved with what they are doing, they don't know what is going on somewhere else on scene. Now that my post has been efficiently shredded apart, and my intelligence thoroughly questioned, I'm happy that at least a few people were nice enough to give me some support. I got all the help that I needed, and I feel much better now, just in case anybody is interested. That was the point of my post. I needed to deal with it, and get some people to listen to me. But a few of you (I'm not pointing fingers) had to go and throw things right back in my face. I don't think that all of the critiquing was necessary, but it's partly my fault that it happened because I answered your questions. My department did a fine job, and we're all proud of it. We know we did well, and you can critique it all you want. It doesn't matter anymore.

It saddens me that when a person looks for some support, some of you completely ignore it and start interrogating her for more and more details. I hope that none of you ever make the mistake of coming here for help, because it obviously doesn't happen. Shame on you.

All of you that were kind enough to try and make me feel better - thank you. Your words are appreciated. I'm all right now.

[LadyCapn]

Heck no Rev, my significant other cruises these forums as well!!! :eek:
I just happen to like banana cream:D

[jaybird210]

Airborne-
We both got a little hot under the collar on this one.

Let's let bygones be bygones.

Long week last week; long weekend; long week this week and it's only Tuesday. I need a nap.

[Airborne]

Tell me about it, I just got my layoff notice yeasterday, lifes a bitch, sometimes.

[ChiefReason]

blaze79:
You have told this room FOUR times that your department did a fine job and that you are all proud of it. Great. How many departments out there right now do you think are going about their business, working a fire or an accident and when they're done, they won't come here looking for a pat on the back or our approval? Know why? Because they don't need it. They don't need to remind themselves of why they do the job.
You didn't come in here looking for support. You came in here looking for acceptance. And you wound up trying to get sympathy and you got it from some. You've always had my support; but you were not going to get my sympathy, because you knew-we all know-the ugly side of this profession. Support IS what we give each other; for a thankless, dirty and dangerous job. You NEVER ask for any of that in your posts. You kept going back to the "our department did a great job and we are all proud of it." But you never stuck around for the "support", which in many cases, includes breaking down the actions used at the incident and reviewing the entire operation from a critical standpoint. I am an advocate of CISD; I am on a team. Without going into detail, you did not use phaseology that is indicative of a crashing firefighter. The use of the word "damn" was a red flag in itself. So don't wag your finger at me and attempt to shame me.
You became confrontational, which is a flag; SOMETIMES. You weren't confrontational with your support mechanism. You were confrontational because I was asking for more details of the incident. You wouldn't help me to help you.
And that may sound harse; it may even sound mean. But if you want to be treated like the other 999,999,999 firefighters in this country, then grow up and take some responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to discuss what went right and what went wrong at an incident. And if that is too hard for you, then you are in the wrong profession. Getting words of encouragement will NOT make you a better firefighter. Learning from your mistakes WILL!
I don't want to be your "friend". I want you to take an opportunity and not piss it away simply because it's not sugar coated.
That's not the way I do things.
I have no regrets. You can feel sorry for yourself because I don't feel any of it.
And for the record; I did not attack you. I challenged your information. There is a difference. Just like there is a difference between "support" and "sympathy".
Have a wonderful adulthood.
CR

[Weruj1]

GREAT POST ...........I think alot of us were feeling the same CR !

[blaze79]

For one second, think about my viewpoint. I felt like I was being attacked. It's hard to tell the tone of a person's post because I can't see his face or hear his voice, so the way that you were writing seemed like you were angry with me. I think you are right now, but that doesn't matter. You can tell yourself that all I wanted was sympathy. It's okay. Our perceptions of sympathy and support are different.

I don't need a reminder of why I do my job. I know why. We all have our reasons of why we do what we do.

ChiefReason, you don't know who I am, and I don't know you. You didn't know how I felt about the scene. You weren't there. You say that I didn't have the phaseology of a crashing firefighter. Everybody crashes the same way?? I didn't know that. Apparently, I'm an exception to the rule then. :p

I don't think that I should have had to give you all of the information. I gave you the basics. House fire = fatality = some stress on my part. I wasn't asking for a pat on the back. I was asking for somebody to listen to what I had to say. This was only my second fatality, and I just wanted to talk about it.

I know that all of you have been through a fatality before. Your strength is amazing, and it motivates me to do my best. I needed some words of wisdom.

ChiefReason, I don't want to be your "friend" either. I just want you to understand where I was coming from. I understand your viewpoint, and why you feel the way you do.

[IACOJRev]

Blaze,

if you still need to talk about it, please send me an email or PM... i'd be glad to listen.


Rev.
chaplain@iacoj.com

[SmokeEater661]

Blaze came on her after experiencing a very traumatic calll, she posted some details so we could try and understand alittle about what she was witnessing. Were I come from when one of our brothers or sisters need to talk we listen not try and tell them they should of done this or done that. She has said that she is a rook, I realize it is hard for most of us to remember when we were new. With my EMS background I have dealt with alot of deaths and now it isn't as big of a deal, however my first was. When someone comes here looking for stress relief, help them out.

Blaze,

If you need someone to talk to feel free to email me at SmokeEater's Email (Ceredofire661@yahoo.com)

[LadyCapn]

Blaze you have disabled both PM and email options. Please PM me and leave me a means to contact you. I have some information that you need to hear as soon as possible.

[SmokeyNY]

Blaze please email me at SmokeyNY@firehousemail.com or PM me.

[dfdex1]

Blaze, I tryed earlier to contact you but like lady capn says we cant get ahold of you.I left a note with the admin. for this site,but it must of got lost in the mix. My email is BNSFGP38@aol.com if you need to talk or what have you or need someone to bounce stuff off of.Please contact me if you want to.

-jesse:)

[blaze79]

I'll be getting back to all of you as soon as I can. The computer that I'm on during the day doesn't allow my to use email or any of that good stuff.

[LadyCapn]

blaze, go to your forum profile on the left hand side, click on edit options across the top and then check off "allow private messaging". You'll be able to access it pretty much with any computer. When you want to check if you have a message just look in forum profile again and it will show your messages.

[blaze79]

I've activated my PM, so now I just have to figure out how to use it. :D :D

[Gx7E10]

Smoking is bad for you. :mad: