Fog vs. Smooth Bore

[FyrFyter510]

There has been a debate in the fire service for years. I have sat in my Chief's office debating it with him. I've sat in the dayroom debating it with other firefighters. On an interior structural fire attack, which is the weapon of choice? A fog nozzle, or a smooth bore? There are advantages and disadvantages to both. In my opinion, both have their place in the fire service, but for interior fire attack, but I go in with a smooth bore. Tell me what you think, give me examples and reasons. I enjoy a good "debate".

[MrFreeze]

Are you serious? People debate over something as trivial as nozzle selection? And you say this has been going on for years? Man, where have I been...

I'd take a low pressure fog nozzle, cranked over to the "right to fight". Wait, is that one of my choices?

Talk about stirring the pot with your first post...Maybe for an encore you can lead a discourse on the difference between career guys and vollies...



Oh yeah, I'm just pullin' your chain.

[nmfire]

Welcome to the forums. Please do not get scared off or take offence to what happens to this thread. This question tends to become rather violent at times.

[FlyingKiwi]

The one constant you face with either nozzle is the chemical make up of smoke, the main ingredient has a set ignition temperature of around 609 degrees celcius, or 1128 degrees farenheit.

So you can hit the fire with a smooth bore, and get zapped by a flashover, or you can pulse the smoke layer with a fog pattern from a variable nozzle, change to stream, and zap the fire in relative control.

Your choice I suppose.

have a good long read at www.firetactics.com and about 100 different threads through these forums.

100 years from now Firefighters will still be arguing over the best nozzle, with the same intensity they do today.

[Resq14]

not again...

:(

haha

kidding

I have a tip: I've found that it helps to research the forums using the "search" feature over on the left before posing a question. Oftentimes you will find that the same question has already been asked.

And in the case of this issue, a lifeless and battered horse would be a representative understatement. It's still fun to stir the pot though.

COMBINATION NOZZLES RULE!

[CollegeBuff]

"This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend........."

[jaybird210]

originally posted by Resq14
COMBINATION NOZZLES RULE!

BLAH!!!

SMOOTH-BORES FOREVER!!!

:eek:






Just doin' my part to maintain chaos and mayhem. No, do not thank me; this is what I do.:cool:

[ff7134]

We solved this problem at our department by going with the
Akron SabreJet combo nozzle. Its a great nozzle once you get use to it.

Me I prefer a fog most of the time just depends on the conditions.

[PAVolunteer]

For more debate, click here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43103)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39545)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37364)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35004)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35303)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17569)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16935)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16383)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16232)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16087)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15373)
or here ... (http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15236)

Stay Safe

[bpevans]

PAVol,
You are right on track with your post and we should get the web team to implement a top 5 or top 10 list of most common threads for a forum that contains links to all of the past threads.

New folks could browse the top 5/10 list to get answers to their most common questions as well as get a feel for the tone of the forum.

[PAVolunteer]

Originally posted by bpevans
we should get the web team to implement a top 5 or top 10 list of most common threads for a forum that contains links to all of the past threads.

New folks could browse the top 5/10 list to get answers to their most common questions as well as get a feel for the tone of the forum.
That is a great idea! Webteam???

Stay Safe

[FlyingKiwi]

Lets see

Fog vs smooth-bore
Voli vs Perm
Leather Vs Tupperware
Leather vs Rubber Boots
Drinking at the station
Jrs/Explorers leaving school for alarms
Are Quints really Fire Trucks
How big is YOUR ladder


Theres 8 without even trying.

[Bones42]

Kiwi - you forgot "what color is your truck" and "how many blue lights do you have"


That's 10.

[RyanEMVFD]

i think "IACOJ- When's the next party?" should be included. :D

Don't forget "Favorite Pranks" and "how to paint a leather helmet".

[FlyingKiwi]

Back to the topic.

Have a look at http://www.uq.net.au/~zzsraffe/index.html

Let the page load, and you will see why Australia, New Zealand, and England, use variable nozzles.

Just a bit of food for thought. There are some extremely revealing video sequences and a perfect quote on one page.

"Everyone has a right to be stupid. Some just abuse the privilege."

(haha, I had to edit it, I made a mistake spelling Australia.)

[E40FDNYL35]

Tastes great .... No, Less filling:cool:

[truckie226]

I had a reply when i read the first post but now i forgot what this thread was about.....oh yeah i remember-i would never use a booster line on a car fire..:)

[GPM123]

I came across this awhile back but did not post it because I know the subject has been beaten to Death, but I did not start this so here it is.

If you visit the TFT web site (if I can say that) and look around they have all sorts of test results to show that SB nozzles are not as good as combination.
some pretty convincing stuff. Is there anyone or company who came up with something different? Now I don't care if you have nozzle xy with a break apart wz and flow whatever. Thats not what I'm asking.

Are there any test results to show one over the other? ;)

Then there are things that can't be tested, because it is not apples to apples. a combination nozzle can't pass ice like a SB, or scale and rust from a standpipe :D
People can look at the whole picture and pick out what arguments they want to support their view and use them. But then the person they are passing the chosen info to is not getting the whole piture.

Both are tools. learn the pros and cons of both and use your head ( the best tool of all) :D to decide what to use when.

[SPFDRum]

With or with-out a dust mask?:rolleyes:

[jaybird210]

Both are tools. learn the pros and cons of both and use your head ( the best tool of all) to decide what to use when.

And that, my friends, pretty much puts this issue to rest.......

[E229Lt]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You want to fight fires-get a solid-bore....You want fog-go to England

[Lewiston2Capt]

Originally posted by E229Lt
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You want to fight fires-get a solid-bore....You want fog-go to England

So what do we do if we use an automatic nozzle? ;)

TC SS

[Bones42]

So what do we do if we use an automatic nozzle? We don't fight the fires, we put them out. :D

[chief14]

Let me throw another ingredient into the mix (and then duck my head!)
How about the Vindicator nozzle? Saw one in demo the other week and was mighty impressed! It is not a cure-all replacement for any other type of nozzle (except maybe an old Navy nozzle!) but as stated earlier another tool in the box.

[protomkv]

I think we should throw all the nozzles away, lets go back to the good old soda acid extinguishers and/or the bucket brigades, Most of the fires in the movies get put out pretty quick with the leather buckets!! E229lt, when you said go to England for fog, did you mean weather or nozzle or both, lol.

[Resq14]

Originally posted by E40FDNYL35
Tastes great .... No, Less filling:cool:

lol

I do think that a "frequent topics"/FAQ section is a great idea.





-insert spoon-

SMOOTHBORE OR BUST

-withdraw spoon-

:p

[tshayes]

I have a solution to this problem. Go to a burn tower if possible and try a smooth bore attack and then try a comination nozzle attack. See which one you like best. Or like we have, put both types of nozzles on your trucks. There is not better or worse nozzle. It all comes down to what you like and what works. All I have to say is that I dont think you will be able to cool down the side of a house as easy as a combination nozzle without knocking off siding or other stuff. Most important is to stay safe and wear your mask.

[Jmatteau]

We got a few of the new Sabrejet nozzles with our new Engine and I love em. There is no more arguing over which nozzle you are going to use, we used to have a SB on the first pre-connect and a fog on the second. The only debate we ever have about them now is pistol grip. Most people like them, but we have a few members who absolutely hate the pistol grip. Personnaly I could care less about the Pistol grip, but I do prefer a SB on the initial attack...Stay Safe...Jay

[MrFreeze]

You like those Sabrejets? I saw some at the Akron booth at FDIC West, seemed like a novel concept. I just didn't want to take too much of the sales pitch to really check it out. I got a Akron book though, mainly for some flow formula information in the back. Don't trust the nozzle manufacturers. GPM123, you think TFT would put stuff on their site that didn't extol the virtues of their nozzles? C'mon now...

Ask any cop about his gun. Think of all the crap he'll tell ya.

Do you know YOUR nozzles that well?

[Batt18]

Engine229Lt - said 'I am intrigued by the idea (of 3D water-fog) and would love to put it through some hands on trial.

A department who's tactics include the use of fog nozzles as a primary tool should look at this seriously.

A department who's tactics include the use of smoothbore as their primary tool cannot begin to entertain this tactic until it has switched over to fog as it's primary attack nozzle'....:D
C'mon Lou :D What changed?!

[FyredUp]

Okay then here is my entry into this timeless and winless battle!

Flying Kiwi...I was surprised at this comment by you,

So you can hit the fire with a smooth bore, and get zapped by a flashover, or you can pulse the smoke layer with a fog pattern from a variable nozzle, change to stream, and zap the fire in relative control.

Come on...you have to know how nonsensical that sounds. Proper usage of a smooth bore can diffuse a flashover situation. Improper use of a fog stream can steam burn firefighters and victims as well as bring down all the heat and smoke and gasses at the ceiling. Use of a fog nozzle no more guarantees that flashover won't occur than any other nozzle. Proper tactics and experienced firefighters are the best tools for flashover prevention...either that or just not getting there before flashover occurs like in the days before smoke detectors and home fire alarms.

GPM123....TFT...You and I have discussed this on occasion. Of course their site berates the "enemy", by the way TFT sells smoothbores, low pressure nozzles and fixed gallonage nozzles and selectable gallonage nozzles...hmmm, perhaps even they realize not everyone is going to buy into the auto nozzle hype. Friends don't let friends use automatics...An always good looking stream that 9 times out of 10 is flowing an inadequate amount of water. I do agree that each nozzle type is a tool and we should choose the best we can for our particular situation, and of course using your head is paramount to proper equipment usage and firefighter survival.

My department tries to have the best of both worlds...Low pressure combo nozzles that break apart to a smoothbore. The low pressure fog on straight stream operates very similar to a smoothbore. Larger droplet size that mimics a smoothbore. While still having that fog capability loved by so many.

I am going to have to agree whole heartedly with the Brothers of the FDNY...SMOOTH BORE!!

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[hfd66truck]

You know this amazes me...everytime it comes up....

Are there places not putting out fires? Use the tools you have, to the best of your ability. Train with them as though your life depends on it. It does. Train with them as though other peoples lives depend on it. They do.

There are departments that successfully use smoothbore nozzles every day, their fires go out.

There are departments that sucessfully use automatic/fog/combo nozzles everyday, their fires go out too.

I'll bet the departments with the vindicators are putting out their fires also.

Minds, eyes and ears work better when open guys. Like carpenters building a house, their are 20 different ways to do 10 differnet things. And the other guy will always say you are wrong.

[RyanEMVFD]

majority of the time, i don't care what type of nozzle i have as long as the line is charged. :)

[FlyingKiwi]

Proper tactics and experienced firefighters

Where is the word TRAINING? It did not show up once in the whole statement.

Come on...you have to know how nonsensical that sounds.

read the following story http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=31974 63&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Smoke detectors were in place, The fire spread too fast for 4 people. By the time the Fire Service arrived, the two story structure was fully involved and suffering collapse.

[truckie226]

You can get a straight stream out of a fog nozzle that has the same reach as a smooth bore....however, i have never seen a fog pattern come out of a smooth bore. The fire service has been making multi functional tools to replace multiple single purpose tools forever.(i.e. halligan, gas shut off in a spanner). Why do you want to limit yourself???


I know i am just adding fuel to the fire...but we might as well have fun.

[E229Lt]

I know i am just adding fuel to the fire...

Actually your adding oxygen to the fire:D

[RyanEMVFD]

actually i've gotten pretty decent fog pattern with a smooth bore. crack it open about half way and it spreads out pretty nicely.

[patdunn79]

did any department realy buy into the vindicator, if yours did are you using it or is it just an ugly showpiece

[FyredUp]

Flying Kiwi...

Gee...we train all of our firefighters in nozzle usage. I didn't think I had to state that here.

Here is our standard tactic, the nozzle is set on straight stream, if there is fire at the ceiling or extreme heat the stream is swept across the ceiling and then the stream is put on the fire, if no fire at the ceiling and no extreme heat buildup, the stream is put directly on the fire. In a residential type setting there is usually no need to enter the room to start extinguishment. It can be done from the doorway. Once the fire is knocked down then entry is made to the fire room. Ventilation is of course a crucial element to our strategy and we try to vent just prior to attack.

To reiterate my statement of "You have to know how nonsensical that sounds"...All my point was is that any time someone all or nothings anything it usually is wrong, or the person has their own point to prove or sell. I use fog nozzles and I use smoothbore nozzles. They both put out fire, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Use what you have and use it the best way you know how.

By the way saying that England, Australia and new Zealand use fog nozzles really doesn't convince me. New York, San Francisco and even my little Po Dunk FD use smoothbores...Are you convinced?

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[ff7134]

Like I said we have the SabreJets, The main problem that we had
was getting use to the rotorary shut off for the smooth bore.
Just use to the handle shut off, but that is a training thing and you get use to it. I personally like the sabrejet becasue it gives me a choice. It depends on the fire to what I use.

[Bones42]

What pressure does a Sabrejet get pumped at while operating in SmoothBore mode? How about Fog mode? How about both combined? Same pressure? Not same gallonage.


SabreJet, not quite a smoothbore, not quite a fog. Tried them in live burn drills, ran flow meters and such, found automatics outperformed them. But, as always, try everything you can, train with them, use what works best for you in your situation.

[KirkAllen]

Pat Dunn:
(ugly showpiece)

I appreciate your input however I am disapointed that a products appearance (Awsome to some/ugly to others) would play a role in your suppression efforts.

I look forward to the day when you can have a first hand demonstration and training so that future comments will be based on facts not others opinions that you chose to believe.

As far as buying into it goes all I can say is that it appears quite a few have done so which would explain why the other nozzle companies have now chosen to compare there latest and greatest to a Vindicator.

To bad they have not focused on the ultimate comparison which is suppression capablity.

Pat if your seriours about more info check out another link that may be of interest.
http://www.centralpafire.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

You will find it under the Fire Discussion forum.

God Bless

[Patrick631]

I need to say up front that I sell fire equipment, which includes nozzles, (Vindicator, Elkhart, Akron, and TFT).

Hfd66truck:

I fully agree with you, I would only add the departments with the Vindicators are putting out their fires faster.

Patdunn79:

My department has “bought into” the Vindicator nozzles, and we use them. We bought one to begin with and did training and testing. In our testing we did comparisons with several other nozzles in the parking lot flowing water. Comparing flows, nozzle pressures, reach, nozzle reaction, etc… What we found was that our personal were able to handle higher flows using the Vindicator nozzles.

We did live fire comparisons, and found the we were putting the fires out quicker no matter how we tested – same flow, same engine pressure, same nozzle pressure. We currently have 12 Vindicator nozzles on our department.

I would encourage everyone to do there own comparisons. And find out which one puts out more fire faster, isn’t that what your #1 objective from your nozzle should be?


Stay Safe!

Patrick

[hfd66truck]

Pat631;

I was at Kirk's booth in San Diego for a visit. Lets just say I am interested and trying to push upwards through the layers of.......you get my point.

Dave

[truckie226]

I didnt know this turned into a fire expo all of the sudden. We all know that the fire service is not quick to take to new ideas. Old traditions die hard so about the ugly comment-anything that does not have the "tradition" look will not pick up very quickly-at least not in this aspect of the world.

[johnusn978a]

Originally posted by FyredUp
Okay then here is my entry into this timeless and winless battle!


I am going to have to agree whole heartedly with the Brothers of the FDNY...SMOOTH BORE!!

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

As previously noted, the beginning of a tragic mistake. Just because we do it one way does not mean it will work as well 100' outside the border of the five boro's. Try everything. Having said that, you can skip the All-purpose nozzle, and the Vari-nozzle. Too dang heavy.

Doc
DC2, ex-FDNY (E74)

[stillPSFB]

Have tested a SabreJet, did like the fact that it only needed 50psi on the 1.5 inch model, didn't like the fact that pulsing ala Paul Grimwood-style would be difficult due to the fact that you can't set your fog pattern (# of degrees) prior to flowing water. Still looking for the perfect branch.

[FyredUp]

JohnUSN978a...

I am not quite sure what your point was in quoting my earlier post.

I will tell you my nozzle choice comes from 26 years of firefighting experience. No I am not in an FDNY borough, and no I will not see as much fire in my career as you guys do. But my choice of smooth bore or second choice of low pressure combination nozzle (straight stream most similar to a smooth bore) come from my combination of training, fire ground experience and testing. Believe me the fact that the FDNY or Chicago or San Francisco or England or Australia does something does not play into my final decision. It may cause me to try out their idea but only an idiot would continue to use someone else's ideas and tactics if they didn't work in their fire department. If my agreeing with the FDNY's choice of nozzle is your concern, then I retract that comment and say that on my own and with my experience and training it is my opinion that the smooth bore nozzle is the best choice in my situation.

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[ff7134]

Bones,

Well Akron says that they work any where from 50gpm-100gpm.
We had a problem at first we have our trucks preset at 150.
and we found out the the nozzle kicks the $hit out of you at
that pressure. So after alot of expermenting we found that about
80-90gpm it works good. The smooth bore works great at 90 to 100.
The fog is around 75-90. The combo works good anywhere between
65-100. That h=just depends on the penetration you want with it.
We had a mutual aid with another company and they had our discharge pressure at 250gpms and that thinsg was #1 out of control and secondly
was worthless and not working correctly. but that happens when you have a pumper relay with a department that first of all doesn't have much fire and secondly thinks B.Sing is training. Now I will step down from the soap box. Hope that answers your question, mainly you have to play with it to fine tune your operating pressure.

[tshayes]

Combo nozzles are good for cooling down the side of a house and for exposure protection. They also do not do a bad job of putting out room fires. All I can say is that I prefer the hard hitting smoothbore because it flows more and has less nozzle reaction which in turn means less energy excerted and more air saved.

[ff7134]

Hey before we got these nozzles I would of agreed.
But we also had to choose which crosslay to pull for the
different types. Now we just grab a line and go. The way I
look at it is they all flow water and put out fire, its just what you are use too and what the department wants. I know that we extensivly
test the nozzles before we bought them. And the Training Bureau and the Company officer agreed that they liked them so thats what we got.

[johnusn978a]

Originally posted by FyredUp
JohnUSN978a...

I am not quite sure what your point was in quoting my earlier post.

I will tell you my nozzle choice comes from 26 years of firefighting experience. No I am not in an FDNY borough, and no I will not see as much fire in my career as you guys do. But my choice of smooth bore or second choice of low pressure combination nozzle (straight stream most similar to a smooth bore) come from my combination of training, fire ground experience and testing. Believe me the fact that the FDNY or Chicago or San Francisco or England or Australia does something does not play into my final decision. It may cause me to try out their idea but only an idiot would continue to use someone else's ideas and tactics if they didn't work in their fire department. If my agreeing with the FDNY's choice of nozzle is your concern, then I retract that comment and say that on my own and with my experience and training it is my opinion that the smooth bore nozzle is the best choice in my situation.

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

Not you personally. I meant in general. That is all. For anyone anywhere. Just because it works in NY, does not mean it will work in NJ, ya know?

Doc
DC2, ex-FDNY (E74)

[don120]

It's always interesting reading posts on this subject.
There is always a big difference of opinion.There are are also alot of misconceptions expressed.Alot of misinformation too.

To Kirk Allen: I e-mailed your company
to get a Vindicator for evaluation up here
in Canada...No answer...

I have to agree with "Friends don't let
Friends use automatics".

Here's a quiz.

What's the difference between a nozzle rated at 250gpm100psi
and a 75psi 200gpm nozzle?

How do you accomplish hydro-dynamic
ventilation with a smooth-bore?

[CrossBro1]

I agree that both smooth-bore and fog nozzles have their applications. We use a TFT nozzle on our 1 3/4 lines that are set on a straight stream. We have found that we get good penetration on the fire, but also with the slightly broken stream, get good heat absorbtion. I've noticed that one common point that comes up in favor of a smooth-bore nozzle is its reaching ability. For those of you who argue this common topic with this point, how large are the structures you guys are fighting fires in? We have no problem using our nozzles and reaching the seat of the fire. Anyway, this topic debate is going to continue as long as we have to fight fires.

[pumper41]

Down in this part of the world, as others such as Flying Kiwi have noted, we use fog nozzles. However we use the full range of these nozzles capabiliies ie we use them to produce a wide fog, spray pattern or straight jet as required. Just because the they are labled by some as "Fog" nozzles dosn't mean we use them on a fog setting all the time. smooth bores in my opinion are useful for two reasons only, greater reach than a "fog" nozzle and greater volume. It is rare to have these requirements over and above what a "fog nozzle" can do. My career dept protects over 5 million people including 4 million in the Sydney metro area (nil interior LODD's in over 40 years). It's nozzle of choice is the Akron Turbojet range, they work, we like them. The same goes for my vollie rural fire district, we use the same Akrons and also Elkhart SM30 automatics, again they work and get the job done. :)

[FyredUp]

don120...

Here's a quiz.

What's the difference between a nozzle rated at 250gpm100psi
and a 75psi 200gpm nozzle? about 20 gpm at100 psi...our Elkhart 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles flow 230 gpm at 100 psi

How do you accomplish hydro-dynamic ventilation with a smooth-bore? By opening the bail on a smooth bore about halfway you can hydraulically ventilate with a smooth bore. It may not be as pretty or as nearly effective but I will give that up to have a smooth bore noozzle.

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[Batt18]

Little 'bursts' of water-fog - a litre at a time - into smoke in the overhead -

http://www.firetactics.com/long1.jpg
http://www.firetactics.com/long4.jpg

the most EFFECTIVE action a firefighter can take!

VIDEO IMAGES HERE (http://www.firetactics.com/NSW-FIRE-BRIGADES.htm)

[pumper41]

Well, I didn't expect to see my career dept (New South Wales Fire Brigades) featured in Batt18's last post, but there you are. For those of you out there who use gallons and gpm, 115 litres(liters) per minute at 800kpa = 30 gpm at 115 psi. No need for smooth bores here!!! :)

[stillPSFB]

Pumper41 - you have mail - AKA a Private Message:)

[pumper41]

stillPSFB, my reply awaits you - pumper41.:)

[janusfire]

For a ventilated fire (flames showing by doors and windows) a fog stream, even in the correct gpm setting, will not penetrate the massive flame, rather it will evaporate at one yard from the nozzle.

But a similar gpm straight stream from the fog nozzle, will penetrate the flames and will evaporate in the core of the fire, putting down temperatures (principally) and smoothering (marginally) the fire.

What we need is to absorb the heath that mantains the combustion, not the one that goes to the atmosphere, and a straight stream it's the weapon of choice, the fire didn't bother if the straight stream comes from a fog nozzle or from a smooth bore!!!!.

Besides, with a selectable fog nozzle, we could have easily an ample range of flows, KK and Protek (at least) markets a selectable fog nozzle with 95 to 250 gpm, Elkhart and Akron have just 95 to 200 gpm or 125 to 250 gpm, those 50 additional gpm's could be critical in some situations, and 125 gpm as a minimum could be rather big for a little fire.

By the way, Protek makes a copy of TFT Handline (50-350 gpm) http://www.protekfire.com/handline/324/324page.pdf including their slide valve (yes, they pay royalties) at a very affordable pricing, but lacking the 1,5" coupling, so for versatility, one have to put on a 2,5" male to 1,5" female, this way it became a nozzle for every size of fire, with a 2" hose is a lethal package (250 gpm on 200 ft at 190 psi EP).

Regards

[jakesdad]

For a ventilated fire (flames showing by doors and windows) a fog stream, even in the correct gpm setting, will not penetrate the massive flame, rather it will evaporate at one yard from the nozzle.

But a similar gpm straight stream from the fog nozzle, will penetrate the flames and will evaporate in the core of the fire, putting down temperatures (principally) and smoothering (marginally) the fire.

What we need is to absorb the heath that mantains the combustion, not the one that goes to the atmosphere, and a straight stream it's the weapon of choice, the fire didn't bother if the straight stream comes from a fog nozzle or from a smooth bore!!!!.

Besides, with a selectable fog nozzle, we could have easily an ample range of flows, KK and Protek (at least) markets a selectable fog nozzle with 95 to 250 gpm, Elkhart and Akron have just 95 to 200 gpm or 125 to 250 gpm, those 50 additional gpm's could be critical in some situations, and 125 gpm as a minimum could be rather big for a little fire.

By the way, Protek makes a copy of TFT Handline (50-350 gpm) http://www.protekfire.com/handline/324/324page.pdf including their slide valve (yes, they pay royalties) at a very affordable pricing, but lacking the 1,5" coupling, so for versatility, one have to put on a 2,5" male to 1,5" female, this way it became a nozzle for every size of fire, with a 2" hose is a lethal package (250 gpm on 200 ft at 190 psi EP).

Regards

I realize that you are most likely a salesman... and that you are trying to pitch a particular nozzle. Therefore...you have revived a thread that is almost 5 years old.

But I will take the bait and dispute your claim that a "straight" stream from a fog nozzle is the same thing as the stream from a smooth bore tip.

It simply isn't.

[Hairyman]

Down in this part of the world, as others such as Flying Kiwi have noted, we use fog nozzles. However we use the full range of these nozzles capabiliies ie we use them to produce a wide fog, spray pattern or straight jet as required. Just because the they are labled by some as "Fog" nozzles dosn't mean we use them on a fog setting all the time. smooth bores in my opinion are useful for two reasons only, greater reach than a "fog" nozzle and greater volume. It is rare to have these requirements over and above what a "fog nozzle" can do. My career dept protects over 5 million people including 4 million in the Sydney metro area (nil interior LODD's in over 40 years). It's nozzle of choice is the Akron Turbojet range, they work, we like them. The same goes for my vollie rural fire district, we use the same Akrons and also Elkhart SM30 automatics, again they work and get the job done. :)

I work for the NSWFB as well. Pumper41, if your still around, lookup Station 268 :)

[janusfire]

Originally posted by Jakesdad

I realize that you are most likely a salesman... and that you are trying to pitch a particular nozzle. Therefore...you have revived a thread that is almost 5 years old.

But I will take the bait and dispute your claim that a "straight" stream from a fog nozzle is the same thing as the stream from a smooth bore tip.

It simply isn't.

I'm not a salesman, Jakesdad, Have you some real arguments?, what are the differences on both kind of streams?.

Note that I'am saying straight not solid stream.

Curiously, anyone who defends the advantages from a SB stream can not cite any solid test that endorses his view, only anecdotic info.

Regards

[jakesdad]

Originally posted by Jakesdad



I'm not a salesman, Jakesdad, Have you some real arguments?, what are the differences on both kind of streams?.

Note that I'am saying straight not solid stream.

Curiously, anyone who defends the advantages from a SB stream can not cite any solid test that endorses his view, only anecdotic info.

Regards

I am certainly not going to argue the point with you as to which I prefer and why. Quite honestly...you shouldnt care what I use and I truly don't care what you use or why you use it.

I am just pointing out that you had said the straight stream from a fog nozzle and the stream from a smooth bore tip are the same. If you are trying to say that there are the same in that they are both...well....straight...then so be it.

But stating that there is no difference in the two beyond that is a complete falsehood. For someone who so vehemently argues for one over the other and who likes to recite product manuals and "testing" you should already know this.

[FyredUp]

The difference between a solid stream froma smoothbore and a straight stream from a combination nozzle is easily defined. The solid stream from a smooth bore is just that, solid. It leaves the nozzle as a solid tube of water and essentially stays that until the stream impacts whatever it is pointed at. A straight stream from a combination nozzle starts out hollow and rejoins itself roughly a foot or so infront of the nozzle to become a straight stream. Depending on how the nozzle person has the pattern trimmed it may be breaking up almost immediately and having a good chunk of the water misting off before it ever reaches the target.

There are differences in the streams from the a smoothbore, and 100 psi and 75 psi combination nozzles.

1) Smoothbore: The stream leaves the nozzle as a solid tube and at the point of impact leaves a clearly defined footprint.

2) 100 psi combo: The stream leaves the nozzle as a hollow tube, rejoins itself and starts to mist off almost immediately due to the small droplet size that makes up the stream. Rarely does it leave a footprint close to that of a smoothbore or low pressure combo.

3) 75 psi combo: The stream leaves the nozzle as a hollow tube and rejoins itself to form a straight stream. It too begins to mist off but not as severely as a 100 psi nozzle. Thhis is due to a larger droplet size that makes up the stream. This nozzle leaves a footprint very similar to the smooth bore.