Do YOU Know????

[KParker]

I thought that this was an appropriate subject to post on this forum, since it definitely relates to the fire service, and firefighters every day. We as firefighters, and EMS workers, or whatever else we may be face death in the face each and every day. We know the risks of our profession, and we take that risk willingly in the hope that we may be able to save a life. Since this is the case, it is imperative that we know one thing. If YOU (yes you) were to die tonight in a structure fire, do you know where you would spend eternity? Our bodies DO NOT simply cease to exist after death, we will spend eternity in one of two places, either heaven or hell. Hell will be a place of eternal tormention (This will definitly be "The Big One"- except there will be no putting it out). Heaven will be a place of eternal peace and rest. Well how do you get to enjoy the benefits of Heaven you say? Well I am glad that you asked, it is simple......to put it basically there is three steps:

A) Admit- You have to admit that you are a sinner (simply do things that are wrong), and repent (turn from this sin).

B) Beleive- You have to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and then arose on the third say.

C) Confess- Simply you tell others what Jesus has done for you.

This is the simplified version, because I know that I don't like to read a 10 page post, so I know nobody else does either, if you have any questions, comments, post them, or pm me, or email me. I can give you many scripture references from the Bible if you would like further proof, or things to read. This is a life-changing decision, don't delay to make it, you never know when it is going to be you on the LODD on firehouse.com, or in the paper. Make sure you are ready to go today, right now!
-Kris

[FlyingKiwi]

Real Bad Taste

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

If I get killed tonight ( I am at work)..I am sure God will be understanding.

[PFire23]

I don't think it truly matters what profession we are in, we are all going to die sometime. And yes, this profession runs a higher risk than most and we all go into it with that understanding. We all have our own beliefs and our own ways of showing them. This world has not nor will ever be "under" a single religious belief. Whether a person believes in God, Yaweh, Jehovah, Buddah, Allah, or whatever, you get the picture, what they believe is within themselves and within their hearts. Not all people believe in a heaven and a hell, and I feel that we should respect all beliefs, the main focal point is that there is a "higher power" than ourselves. I think that as long as each one of us has made our peace with our "God" then that is all that matters when it all boils down.

[Temptaker]

KParker

Well how do you get to enjoy the benefits of Heaven you say? Well I am glad that you asked,

NO ONE asked.

What you have essentially done is tell everyone on these boards who is not a "born again christian" that they are going to hell in a handbasket. You don't have the RIGHT to make that judgement or determination. Heaven and hell, whether you believe in such things or not is each persons individual right. If I wanted an alter I would go to my local church Sunday night.

Kiwi is exactly right. This post is in extremely bad taste and is offensive.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by KParker
I thought that this was an appropriate subject to post on this forum...........-Kris

Think again. :rolleyes:

[1835Wayne]

Kparker- if you feel the need to testify as to the glory of the Lord, do it door to door like the rest of the holy rollers and Bible thumpers.........

These forums are an international meeting place for firefighters and EMS workers. Not all share your beliefs and should not be compelled to see them here. I am a Catholic and take insult at your presumption that anyone who does not follow YOUR ways is going to Hell!!!! How dare you judge anyone!!!!! That is the domain of the Lord our God and not that of a mere man!! I leave the judgeing of a persons eternal soul to the almighty and I suggest that you do the same.

I feel that no one religion has all the right of it and who am I to say what they might be wrong about? I follow what is written in the Bible "JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGED." I feel it is up to each person to worship as they see fit. If you want to preach, find a pulpit and go for it! There is no pulpit here.

[CJMinick390]

1835Wayne, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[EastKyFF]

KParker, while your intentions appear noble enough, you strike out on methods. Here are the three strikes:

1. Making your statements in an online forum. This is not going to send anyone charging to church to repent. Those of us users who are Christians try to let that show through in our posts, and with a grand total of four posts to your credit, you clearly haven't gotten to that point yet. I'd say very few--maybe zero--people EVER read ANYTHING online that saved their souls on the spot. YOUR job in trying to witness to others is to get face-to-face when you can and be personally involved in helping somebody who WANTS to find God.

2. Using LODD's as leverage. A lot of people on these forums are hurting from recent LODD's of near and dear; I suspect they do not like having it thrown in their faces that they could be next. Sure, they could, but being a firefighter is not our only potential ticket to death. Somebody's aorta could spring a big aneurysm before I finish this post, or a sleepy driver could hit me on my way home. If we know anything in this business, it's mortality. Don't dredge up old wounds by playing the LODD card.

3. Making a "simplified post". What people need to hear to be born again is a long way from fitting in one little post. We haven't heard from you since the original post. Did you just think a quick little post was going to help anybody? Have you even been back to read this thread?

Summed up: Good intentions, poor methods.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by EastKyFF
Have you even been back to read this thread?

The post was created only yesterday evening. Give people a chance. Some people (unlike everyone who's replied, including myself) do not constantly log into FH.com to read the forums every hour on the hour.


Where's the IACOJ Chaplain to comment on this? :) Got someone trying to encroach on our shepard's flock.

[DFDRev]

I am here Adze -- I'm just waiting to see how this all pans out before I comment...

the Rev.

[KParker]

Well then, I obviously have stirred up quite a hornet's nest, a lot of interesting things have been said about me, about what I said, and even some things that I did not say. I never judged anybody in what I said, I was never negative or derogatory towards ANY RELIGION. A lot of ya'll have attacked me for my post, and yet I have done nothing to deserve that. I posted in an off-duty section of these forums, where I can post to my heart's content as long as I am not being negative. When others post their opinions and thoughts I don't jump to criticize them, I have been brought up to respect other's opinions, even if I do not agree with them.

EastKyFF, I can share my faith at any time, anyplace, I understand that I probably went about this the wrong way, but then again, who is perfect? NOBODY! I can't get on here and check this forum 24/7, I am a full-time college student, work 30 hours a week, am going to EMT class at night, and work at our Fire Dept. most weekends. Therefore, I can only check this forum periodically, and I posted last night, and I am replying to all that was said at the first opportunity that I had. I was not using the LODDs as leverage, I would NEVER use a fallen brother as such, I was simply making the point that you never know when it is your time.

To all: We are supposedly a brotherhood, but there is no wonder that the fire service has the problems that we have today with the people that are quick to criticize, ridicule, and put down. That is not what the fire department is supposed to be about. I am sorry that I brought out the bad side in many, but not sorry what I posted.
-Kris

[5pts384]

A good question Parker, not all belive as you as seen by the venom and many do not want to think beyond tomorow. Good luck on your studies.

[EastKyFF]

Kris:

I'm not saying you were wrong or imperfect to post as you did. It's great to be in a nation where you can do that without being arrested. All I meant by my post was that the methods you chose were likely to be met with some negative feedback because of the factors I mentioned. I did not say or imply that you shouldn't have posted. I was just pointing out the ramifications of the path you chose.

I felt that your mention of LODD's did little more than revive painful memories; as I said, we are all aware of our own mortality due to the amount of tragedy we witness in the field.

I also wondered aloud whether you'd be back because some people have registered long enough to drop in, start a thread, and leave. Since you had just four posts at the time, I thought such might apply to you. I'm glad to see you will be around to chat more in depth with us all.

Good luck, and stay safe.

[KParker]

I felt that your mention of LODD's did little more than revive painful memories

-My apologies for mentioning the LODD then, this was not my intention (beleive it or not!!! :) )

-You don't have to worry about me going anywhere, I have been reading these forums for quite awhile now, but I have only recently registered so that I could throw in my two cents worth like everybody else. I will be around...

-5pts, you wouldn't happen to be around here huh??
-To the IACOJ Chaplain, I am not trying to take over your flock, just speak the Word.

[DFDRev]

Originally posted by KParker
-To the IACOJ Chaplain, I am not trying to take over your flock.

I never thought you were ;)

[KParker]

I like that website you have rev, impressive...
-Kris

[FlyingKiwi]

Kris.

The reason I felt it was in bad taste was simple. It denigrates the memory of Fallen Brothers and Sisters by implying that unless they were "Born Again" they are now existing in hell.

What the heck happens when a FF dies in Sudan, Israel or Saudi Arabia?

Before you start saying one way and one way only, do some thinking, heres a place to start. Why is it that 99% of religions and cultures have a "Noahs Ark" story as part of their belief system?

[KParker]

. Why is it that 99% of religions and cultures have a "Noahs Ark" story as part of their belief system?

hmm, that's a tough one kiwi, really a tough one, I would say that it is because Christianity is one of the oldest religions around, the story of Noah's Ark is a central idea in this religion, and others then use this story due to its factuality. I am not the one that says one way only. In the Bible (John 14:6 to be exact) it says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father except through Me." (Jesus speaking) He is simply saying that unless you come through Me, and My saving grace you can not be with the Father, who is in Heaven, and it does not matter who you are, rich, poor, popular, nerdy, firefighter, emt, policeman, nurse, teacher, student, bum, homeless, anybody, it doesn't matter who you are. It is very sad, heartbreaking really, but that is how it is. That is why I want to share what I know, I do not want any of my brothers to be in hell, I want to be able to spend eternity worshipping with them in Heaven. If a firefighter who is a Christian dies in Sudan or anywhere else, he will still go to Heaven, it does not matter where you are.
-Kris
Stay safe out there!

[FlyingKiwi]

Australian Aborigines.
Papua New Guinea
Aztecs
New Zealand Maori.

Are but 4 that have had this as part of their culture for centuries b4 Christianity, even the Celtic cultures and Druid faiths throughout Europe had these beliefs.

If a firefighter who is a Christian dies in Sudan or anywhere else, he will still go to Heaven

That comes back to Exceedingly Bad Taste

[5pts384]

Could it be the "OLD TESTAMENT" is true then? No matter what we belive it is a blessing that we can discuss this without being given a death sentence for not saying the (correct) party line.

[1835Wayne]

I took exception to your allegation that anyone who doesn't feel as you do will go to hell. These forums were not intended to be a place for religious retoric. It is my opinion that you should take this discussion to some other site, not Firehouse.

[JuliaFire]

I'd rather be in hell - at least I'd be getting some action.

[PFire23]

*sigh* there have been days where I have thought that I was already there :rolleyes:

[KParker]

Ok, sorry that it is so late before I could get on here and respond to a couple of things that were posted overnight, but I have been busy....anyways...

Kiwi- Christianity has had the stoy of the Ark as part of their beliefs since nearly the beginning of time, at least since the very act happened...
That comes back to Exceedingly Bad Taste
I do not see how this is bad taste...sounds like a good thing to go to Heaven...

1835Wayne- hmm...how to respond to this, all I can say is that I am sorry that you don't like what I said, but I have said nothing wrong, and I will not apologize for the truth. I understand that you may not think that this is a good discussion for this forum, but that is why I posted in the Off-Duty Discussion forum, it is a place where all could be posted, unless it is something that the webmaster dislikes to the point that he/she feels as though it should be removed.

Julia, I sincerely hope that you are only kidding, do you realize how bad it will be in Hell? There is the saying that if firefighters went to Hell, they would only put it out, but that is only a saying.:) Hell will be a place of eternal torture, there will be no firefighting there, it will be like burning up in the biggest, hottest fire you have ever been in and not dying or the pain ever going away. Anyways, I think that you were just kidding, (I think) Ok, that is about all I have to add to this right now, I will be on periodically for the next several hours to check on any other additions.
-Kris

[CJMinick390]

Christianity did not exist as a religion until the 1st. Century, AD. Much of the theology, morals, and ethics of Christianity are an outgrowth and updating of Judaism. The Old Testament, which contains the scriptures dealing with Adam and Eve, Noah, the deliverance of the Jewish people from the Egyptians, the stories of David, and the prophetic writings of Isiah, Jeremiah, and many other writings that laid the foundation for Christ's coming are part of Judaism, and have been adopted by Christianity.

These teachings became part of Christianity when Jesus, himself living in the Judaic tradition, brought the "Good News" based on the spirit of the law of Moses, rather than the letter of the law of Moses, to the Jewish and Gentile people of the Roman Empire.

I personally believe that the merciful God that all Christians worship allows many ways for people to come to him and it is not for us to make judgements as to who will be saved. For me, faith and religious beliefs are very personal things. I don't think a public forum such as this one is the appropriate place for such a discussion, but you certainly have the right to post what you want. People also have the right to respond to your postings as they see fit.

[Epinephrine]

Arguing this is pointless other than the fact it is a blast to argue. The existence of God is niether fact nor fallacy. Now here's that $40,000 Education kicking in...

The point in brief using logic (the logic of philosophy) basically breaks it down this way:

For those who do beleive in God, you have to agree that God is perfect, does not make mistakes, and is always right. Being that you beleive in God, you agree that God created humans. Humans contain some seemily useless organs, and what appears to be a tailbone. These are essentially proved by Darwin and used in his theory of Evolution. Now the tailbone and useless organs are one of two things. They are either a.) A product of Evolution or b.) Mistakes or Errors in Humans. If you say they are a product of evolution, then you are negating that god created humans, and going with Darwin who says we evolved. Thus proving that a god doesn't exist. If you go with the mistakes or errors argument you are saying that God made a mistake, and that goes against the definition of God. God can't make mistakes so therefore there is no God.

Wait it gets better...

Now using the above arguments disproving that God exists, we now prove that God must exist. For this you must agree that God doesn't exist. You still must beleive the above definition that God is all powerful and flawless. Billions of people beleive in God. We have proved God doesn't exist. So Billions of people beleive in something that does not exist. Billions having faith in nothing gives that nothing a power. And since an undying power in nothingwould make that nothing perfect. That nothing would also be all powerful as it doesn't exist, so it cannot command people to beleive in itself. Since it cannot command people to believe in it, and it is nothing, and therefore flawless, the nothing is perfect. By the last statements the nothing is God, because of out set agreed upon definition of God, God must exists.

Yeah, I'm just as confused as you are, but when you think about it, it works. This basically boils God down to a personal belief and thats it. There is little point in arguing this as there is no way for anyone to win. There is only one way to prove God does or does not exist, and that is to die. You go first and tell us the answer...

[huff317]

you go first, and tell us the answer....

:rolleyes:
Ummmm, there is one who already did....(Matt 27:50, then 59-60, then 28:9-10, then 18-20), I think that's what he's been trying to say.

I could be wrong, but maybe he's just trying to help, guys....;)

Peace

[KParker]

??????????? Well that certainly confused the crap out of me, but there was a valid point mentioned...the only 100% way to know for sure would be to die and to find out...the only problem would be that it would be too late then. Let's look at it this way though, the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person, basically works will get you to Heaven. Christians do not believe that, but let's say hypothetically that they are wrong, well since part of their faith is doing good works (not what gets them to Heaven, just proof of their relationship to God) they will be ok, and will go to wherever they say the good people go...Ok well let's say that the Christians are right, then what happens to the people that beleive otherwise??? Sounds like a gloomy day for them huh??? Either way Christians will be ok.

-Exactly huff317, I am only trying to help...Thanks man

[KParker]

drkblram, I post this with great reverence towards all of my fallen brothers, whether they were lost on 9/11 or on any other date in the history of this great nation, or any other country in the world. I am very sorry that you were offended by what the firefighters said in the memorial service, I would tend to believe that they were just trying to help also. I believe that all who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord will spend eternity in Hell. Now this is a very difficult concept, and I am afraid that I will draw quite a bit of heat for this, but this is the sad truth. It is this way because God is a just God, He is full of mercy, and allows all the opportunity to join Him in Paradise, but not all choose it, so in actuality they are choosing to be apart from Him, they may just don't understand what goes along with that choice. It is heartbreaking, but true, that is why I am doing what I am doing, I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise, like anyone of ya'll reading this. Take this like I mean it, I am not demeaning the memories of our fallen brothers, that is sacred. The decision is there though, for our choosing.......

[FlyingKiwi]

Kris.

the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person

Take your statement one step further. The basis of all societies since mankind first decided to live in communal groups is to advance the group. This is done on a base level by 4 instinctive behaviours, reffered to as the "4 F's".

Fighting.
This skill provided food and protection for the group, as well as sorting out the "pecking order."

Feeding.
Obvious.

Fear.
A necessary skill to recognise danger in time to work out the "Fight or Flight" response.

Reproduction. (:p )
Gaurantee continuance of the species.

Now once we started living in groups we started making decisions about what was socially acceptable to the group and what wasn't. People that did not follow the rules were punished in some way or removed from the group.

Once the societies became larger the rules became more complex and we were well on our way to the messed up shambles we have today.

If you want an example of messed up then have a look at the book you keep reffering to. It has been added to, deleted from, and translated from translations for 2 centuries. Each time picking up the sentiments and knowledge of the time and place it was translated in.

Christians can not even agree on its contents, eg, check an Anglican Bible with a Catholic Bible, there are parts in either not in the other.

I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise

Funny that, you would probably get the same comment from a Muslim.

Now one simple question for you. How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.

[huff317]

Tell y'all what, though......He (KParker) sure has got a lot of y'all thinking about some pretty profound subjects. Maybe that cause some to be uncomfortable. Maybe some are really and truly taking an objective look inwardly.:eek:
Maybe that's what he intended all along....;)

BTW, keep this going. This is good.

Peace

[Lewiston2Capt]

I believe in God, however I do think that religion has been a contributing factor in many problems experienced in the world. I ave faith not religion. DFDRev, perhaps you can state this better than I ever could. Faith is the belief in God as a being, faith is belief in heaven. Religion is an organized system of beliefs that often causes the exclusion of those that do not share the same beliefs. I only need to look to Ireland for proof, the protestants and the catholics have faith in the same god, however their religions are what cause them to disagree.

I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.

I have faith that since our brothers who have laid down their lives for another, have the greatest love according to the book of John, they are in heaven.

This is the way that I feel.

[1835Wayne]

I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??

There is a term for your behavior: HYPOCRICY

[KParker]

Well I usually do not get on at night, but I knew there would be a few posts that probably needed responding to, so I decided to "bite the bullet" and just put up with my slow internet. Ok so here goes nothing,

Lewiston2Capt- I would have to agree with you on one of the things that you said, I prefer not to say that I have a religion, because so many people see a "religion" as a negative thing, I prefer to say that I have a relationship. I have a relationship with God, and that goes beyond any religion, or any man's attempt of description.

DFDRev, I wish that you would throw in your two cents worth, I wonder what it is that you are thinking about all of this, and what you have to say.



I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??

Well actually that's pretty simple 1835Wayne, I am not judging anybody, I am not raining down vengeneance on anybody so this is still not applicable to what is going on here. 1835Wayne I am not trying to be negative about all of this, Jesus has offered hope, and I am just sharing that hope. I am not being hypocritical, just honest.

I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.

Lewiston2Capt that is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible, and this is the greatest love, and Jesus himself exemplified this love by dying on the cross and bearing our sin burden. However, Jesus himself said (I know I already said this once, but think it deserves mentioning again) that "I am THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, and NOBODY gets to the Father except through ME. (emphasis mine- John 14:6) This verse makes it very simple, if you don't go through Jesus, you don't get to the Father that is in Heaven. Period. No matter who you are. (Read earlier post for more info. on this)

Ahh I almost forgot something else I wanted to add- Kiwi,
How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.
I am not saying who goes to Heaven or not, God is, and ultimately each person makes that decision for themself by either rejecting or accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. And about the Bible, I do not have an exact answer about why the Catholics have the 12 extra books in their bible, and I am certainly not saying that those books are true historically, because they are mentioned in the Bible. As far as the different traslations goes, that does not mean that the Bible has been changed, if you look at the ancient Greek and Hebrew text you will find that they are the same as the Scripture that we have today. The translations (not paraphrases) are the exact same verses with emphasis added to make them readable to the average joe. After all how many people off of the street would pick up the Old King James Version and go to reading. Besides just because it is old does not make it better. The New American Standard Bible had been proved to be the most accurate translation that is available. The KJV was done by King James (who would have thunk that) because that is what his people wanted, not necessarily him. They have not been added to and deleted from. Alot of prayer, time, and consideration went into any translation that is available today. The Bible has been proven over and over by historians, archaelogists, and scientists, it is true, it is valid. It is still good stuff, life changing stuff.

-huff317 Thanks for the encouragement, I think some stuff is going on here that all may not like, but it is still good stuff, because it is God's stuff!

Guys, there are alot of you that may find what I have to say offensive, especially as it refers to our brother firefighters, but that does not make it any less true. It would be wrong for me to sugarcoat the Gospel, and try to make it all pretty and nice, but sometimes it is not. I would rather someone tell me the truth that was not pretty, than tell me a lie that was all nice, because the truth may hurt right now, but in the end it will prove to be a much greater help than any lie. I am going to bed now, ya'll stay safe wherever you are, my prayers are with you. God Bless!
-Kris

[DFDRev]

Don't worry, folks - I haven't gone anywhere. I am choosing to remain on the sidelines for a little bit longer. This is a discussion that, certainly as a Christian minister, I have my opinions/beliefs/etc. But I think the discussion is going very well without my input for the time. ;)

Carry on.


Rev.

[EastKyFF]

Folks, let's ease off of KParker.

What I see is people who are not interested in KParker's religious ideas and who are consequently insinuating that there is no God, that Christianity is hypocritical, that KParker can't tell you who will and won't go to heaven.

Meantime you turn around and assert your own belief that if you die, God will have mercy on you and you'll be just fine, thankyaverymuch.

If KParker doesn't know who will and won't go to heaven, how do YOU know?

As a Christian, KParker feels an obligation (instructed by the Bible) to share what he believes, which is that without God, your soul is doomed.

If you disagree, stop reading this thread, because nothing you post will change his mind. Just be respectful and tolerant, and do not ridicule him or Christianity.

Earlier I pointed out to KParker why I thought this thread would probably not be effective, but I respect his pluck in attempting.

[1835Wayne]

I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell. I find it offensive that this thread has been allowed to continue and have asked the WT THREE TIMES to do something with it. Do we really need to discuss this here? Is this not a personall question that each person has to decide for themselves??

Is the divisiveness that is starting to emerge in this thread a good thing?? I think not. WT end this now before it becomes more of a problem than it already is.

[EastKyFF]

"I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell."

Exactly my point! How is KParker wrong to post these beliefs while others are right to post their beliefs that God will spare them?

[DFDRev]

I can honestly see no reason to end this thread. In fact, it seems more civil than some of the other ones! The discussion is raising some very key issues on both sides that I think need to go a little bit further. And the issues that I am referring to have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell.

I have been following the thread very closely. At this time I have chosen not to throw in my two cents. I promise you, however, that I will be posting to this thread at some point.

I would encourage everyone to read past the attitudes - on both sides. You will begin to discover some keys to understanding each other (please notice I didn't say "agree with each other"). Without this understanding we can never truly be a "brotherhood."

This thread is about more than just religion.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Thanks Rev. for keeping things in perspective.

[dfdNo9]

Four things that family member should not do and expect not
fight over. ie: THE BROTHERHOOD:)

Talk about:

Religion or Politics:eek:

Buy or sell to one another:mad:

Work in the same barn ( LOL ) :p



Keep the faith (what ever it may be) that keep you going!:cool:

[Temptaker]

EastKyFF

You're right it is completely with his perogative to post that anyone that does not believe as he does is going to hell. I'm assuming from your posts that you agree, and that's fine.


KParker

I am not saying who goes to Heaven or not, God is, and ultimately each person makes that decision for themself by either rejecting or accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord.

That is according to the doctrine that you have been taught. Let's just take that a little step further shall we....salvation according to your doctrine is not a one time thing as you have implied. It is an ongoing process, requiring the blood of Calvary to continually flow.


And about the Bible, I do not have an exact answer about why the Catholics have the 12 extra books in their bible, and I am certainly not saying that those books are true historically, because they are mentioned in the Bible.

The 12 extra books were not put into the original KJ translation because they couldn't be confirmed in two of the three languages used for the translation.

As far as the different traslations goes, that does not mean that the Bible has been changed, if you look at the ancient Greek and Hebrew text you will find that they are the same as the Scripture that we have today. The translations (not paraphrases) are the exact same verses with emphasis added to make them readable to the average joe.

This is not an accurate statement at all. Several things have been removed and/or changed out of the originally KJ translation, which when it was done, the translation was checked twice to ensure accuracy. If there was an error found the individual who was doing the translation was put to death. You also might want to consider the fact that there was a warning given to all in the front and the back of the book not to change or remove ANYTHING, but then I'm sure you know that, after all it is according to YOUR doctrine.

The New American Standard Bible had been proved to be the most accurate translation that is available.

Proved by WHO? Does it contain the differentiation between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit? If you don't believe me go pick up a copy of the original KJV not the new one, and read oh I don't know Jn 14:16-18, Jn 15:26 - 16:15, Acts 2 (which can also be cross referenced to Is 28:11. They are different you know. As I'm sure you're aware a blaspheme against the Holy Ghost isn't forgiven in this life or the life to come, according to YOUR doctrine.

In case you haven't figured it out, I became a Christian a long time ago. While I'm sure that you intensions were good, I still do NOT think that this is the appropriate venue.

That being said, here is something for you to consider, long before Christ ever walked on the earth people lived, people died, people worshipped in their own ways. After Christ was crucifed, the powers that be decided to go on a mission to convert all the 'heathen' people in the land. Those people who chose not to convert were killed. Does that sound like love you to?

Wars have been raged in the name of god (not capitalized on purpose) on who is right and who is wrong. I have spent YEARS studing many different religions. Fundamentally the majority of them all say the same thing, right down to the "this is the only way". While aspects of the bible have been proven, there are many things claimed by other belief systems that haven't been either way. What about the people who have rememberance of a previous life? Near death experiences? Or have seen Ghosts? According to YOUR doctrine NONE of those things happen. Yet they are documented time and time again. Are those people lying, or delusional? Or could it just be that YOUR doctrine doesn't quite cover EVERYTHING?

I personally REFUSE to accept the fact EVERY person on the planet will have a chance to hear about Christ before they die (which it also says in the bible, I'll get ya the scripture if you like). It is feasibly NOT possible. Therefore that choice to accept of deny Christ was NEVER given to them. Are you going to tell me they are in hell too? What about the baby that dies shortly after birth, children according to YOUR doctrine are sanctified by the believing mother or father until such a time as they can make their own decision. So are you going to tell me that a baby is going to go to hell because their parents don't believe? Or are you going to fall back on the "we are judged based on what we know" theory? Or the aboriginal people's who have NEVER seen anyone outside of their own tribe (yes they still do exsist), is an angel going to appear to them like Abraham and Lot and minister to them, so they can be converted?

Are you going to tell me that people who have dedicated their lives to Christ, but might not be born again, therefore are not subscribed to YOUR doctrine are going to hell when they die? Or did your Pastor/minister whatever forget to mention that each person plays a different role, kinda like the boards in the arc. Just like NOT every person is meant to have prophecy, or the gift of tongues (which is different from the baptism of the Holy Ghost), or healing, or faith etc. They all come from the same place, according to your doctrine, that doesn't mean that each person is supposed to have each one. The only thing that EVERYONE according to your doctrine is supposed to have is the "fruits of the spirit" Gal 5:22-26.

You know a lot of people seem to forget the love part. Witnessing isn't about shoving your belief down someone else's throat, it isn't about broadcasting on network TV or on these forums or anywhere else. It is about LOVE and living by example, and when people want to know they will ask you. You remember that "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me" thing.

There was some mention about the people who responded to this post who were objecting were afraid or not willing to look at 'life after death'. I take exception to that statement. Nothing could be further from the truth. I became a born again christian 22 yrs ago by my own choice. I was baptized in the Holy Ghost (not water baptism different things) 10 yrs ago, and I walked away from organized religion 5 yrs ago.

WHY because people who call themselves Christians, born again are the worst btw and often are the most hypocritical, are the most judgemental group on the planet. Assumptions are made and words spoken from a pulpit are taken as law. The very people who are supposed to be reached out to and loved are looked down on, and critized. The most fundamental of all teachings is forgotten, you know that thing Jesus wrote in the sand, the word was GRACE. I'm sorry but I don't see that here.

According to YOUR doctrine I am going to hell, infact my place in hell will be a special one, because I have been 'enlightened' and walked away. You know what, I'm ok with people thinking that. No one knows the intention of my heart, and that is what it comes down to. I am NOT the least bit afraid of death or what comes after it. The plain truth is NONE of us will know for sure what happens until we are dead.

Personally feel this should have been put in the "prayers" forum, I suppose then you wouldn't have had you audiance would you? Or you could have worded the subject question a little differently, so people not interested wouldn't be bothered to look, but there again you wouldn't have gotten your audiance. I hope that you are proud of yourself, you can go back to your congregaton and minister/pastor whatever, and tell them that you have been persecuted for your belief. They will pat you on the back, and tell you what a wonderful job you are doing, and how 'lost' the people are that don't susbribe to your belief and have posted their objections here. According to YOUR doctrine that is the way it's supposed to be, right? If you want to reach out and witness to people why don't you try your own neighbourhood, at least then you can take them back to your own church and know what they are being taught, or do you prefer throwing seed on rocky ground?

[KParker]

Well I have just gotten back to where I can check this forum, and a little happened overnight I see. EastKyFF thanks for the encouragement, this forum is going to make it I believe.

1835Wayne, obviously you have some serious anger towards the church, or an religious organization, a religion, or somebody involved in one of the aformentioned organizations. I apologize for this, it happens, but that doesn't make it easier. I do not know what happened, but it was enough to create some serious bitter feelings towards them, and therefore me when I started this thread.

I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell. I find it offensive that this thread has been allowed to continue and have asked the WT THREE TIMES to do something with it. Do we really need to discuss this here? Is this not a personall question that each person has to decide for themselves??

Once again, I am not the person that said that if you don't accept Jesus you will go to hell, He did, and I am merely repeating His words. I am not trying to scare people to Jesus, and I can not see where I am being negative or condemning anybody. I have a genuine love and concern for all of ya'll and I simply do not want anybody to miss out. This is a very personal question, and each person does have to decide in the end for themselves, but they can not decide how they want to go to Heaven, it does not happen that way. The choice that they make is to either 1) Accept Jesus and go to Heaven or 2) Reject Jesus and go to Hell. That's all there is to it, accept or reject. You are not rejecting me, my religion, or anything else other than Jesus Christ. I reckon I will have to continue repeating this over and over, this is a very valid thread in this forum, as it is an Off-Duty Forum, where all can post. I am sorry that you find that offensive. I do not think that this is something that calls for the webteam to lock it down, this is actually pretty mild like the Rev said. Ya'll stay safe out there....

[Temptaker]

KParker,

Sorry but I don't believe that 1835Wayne has any hostility towards you or church for that matter. I happen to know that he is a church goer. It just happens to be that he doesn't think he's going to hell in a handbasket because he isn't born again.

Please don't apologize for upsetting anyone, I don't believe that you are really sorry. It was your intention to stir the pot when you started this thread. I don't believe that any of us here are stupid enough to believe that you are so naive you didn't think you would provoke a reaction.

Why is it exactly that you left my questions unanswered? You keep saying accept or reject, but you aren't fully educating your audiance. If you are going to come on here and use this forum as your own private pulpit and start preaching then you should be ready to answer some hard questions.

[KParker]

Temtaker, I am answering your questions, you posted while I was posting my first post, and then it said I had not specified a valid link or something. I am going to respond give me a chance.

[Lewiston2Capt]

Easy there Tempie, you seem quite fired up about this and I can understand that, religious descussions seem to do that to people. But, just make sure you are not doing to others that which you are accusing KParker of doing. Lets attempt to do what the Padre said and reach understanding, not agreement, or acceptance, understanding. :)

[Temptaker]

Not fired up at all, just asking questions and waiting for some answers LC ;)

I have not told anyone what I believe, nor am I going to, other then the fact that I am ok with death.

I would ask the same thing of anyone coming on here and telling me that I am going to hell because I don't subscribe to what they believe including the Rev.

I do understand, all I am asking is that he show the same acceptance and tolerance of other peoples belief's. I am not asking that he agree with them or that he subscribe to them.

[Bones42]

The choice that they make is to either 1) Accept Jesus and go to Heaven or 2) Reject Jesus and go to Hell. That's all there is to it, accept or reject. 3) Follow the steps of your own religion.

[FlyingKiwi]

Just a general note.

I do not have answers for your questions or what it is exactly you are seeking, I will know someday. And then will not be able to give you an answer.

Yes, I have walked away from organised religion, and from Charismatics / Born Again call them what you will.

Do I believe in a higher being, call him/her by whatever name you will. That is for myself and those I am close to to know.

Please take the blinkers off and realise that they are WORDS in a book, The true spirit is within every living thing.

Can someone please explain if there are animals in your heaven? And how the heck did they get there? Especially as they don't attend many of the churches I have seen. It would be a bloody depressing place without them.

You worship your way, I will do it mine. You go inside the building and pray for people. I will put on PPE, get on the streets and do something on a personal level to help.

[KParker]

Ok gentlemen, every time I go to post it is telling me that I have not followed a valid link or something, so I am going to lunch, and then I will save my post to a Microsoft Word document and then post it. Hold your horses, it is coming...I have some answers....
-Kris

[Temptaker]

Kiwi,

Apparently animals are supposed to go to heaven. They don't have souls, only spirit, therefore follow their natural instinct. They were never given free choice that man has, so they don't sin. This is according to some theories.

KParker,

You know it's interesting that you can post to tell us you can't post. :confused:

[E229Lt]

I, for one, will spend eternity in an urn.

[KParker]

Ok, every time I went to post a large post it would not work out for me. So here is what I decided to do. Post a numerical list of the questions that you want answered, in the order that you want them answered, and I will try to answer them and do it with tact and proof behind them. I will then post my answer. All are invited to answer the questions. Please keep the number of questions down as I am only one person without much support. I will answer as fast as possible.
-Kris

[MalahatTwo7]

I really did try to stay out of this one - honest I did, but sometimes even the quiet guys have to speak out.... so here goes:

(Take into account, these are my words alone and are spoken from my experiences both at home and abroad in the Mid-East; the Army has wonderful ways of introducing a person to new peoples and cultures)

What gets me wound up the most about any religion is that when you filter out the hoolllyy goooggle and language scrap, they intrinsically say the same thing. Namely that you "should love your neighbour, repent your sins and if you are a good person you will attain heaven during the afterlife."

As it happens, in addition to the "good message" they also tell that if another person doesn’t flow the same way as you, they must be destroyed - now what’s with that?

That is the "human intellect" interfering with a social concept, now if we could just switch that intellect "off" then all would be happy in the world.... hmmm not gonna happen anytime soon is it?

Religious discussion for the sake of discussion is a great way of expressing ideas and trading thoughts, but when you have more than one particular religious group in the discussion, that is how it should stay - A DISCUSSION ONLY.

[E229Lt]

1835Wayne, obviously you have some serious anger towards the church, or an religious organization, a religion, or somebody involved in one of the aformentioned organizations.

Maybe he's tired of holy rollers ringing his doorbell and not taking the hint when we say "no thank you" or "not today".

Ever heard the expression:

"That's as rare as a Jehova's Witness in someone's livingroom"

KParker: No thank you, not today!

[KParker]

Just one quick point, be very careful when you tell me what my doctrine believes in....because you do not know what my doctrine even is...therefore you don't know what it says. Oh, and one more thing, how is it that the first thing that I hear when I post is "Don't judge me" "You should be tolerant of others" Well then, what happens is that nobody is tolerant of what I have to say? Why is that? What about someone telling ME what I meant when I posted something? hmm....sounds like maybe some people believe some things only when it is convenient for you...in that case do you really believe that then???
-Kris

[StayBack500FT]

Weeeelllll.....This is all well and good, but what I REEEAALLLYY want to know is if that is truly Dinty Moore's thumb print on the top of my can of stew?? If that's real......I mean that's one biiig thumb ...yeeeeessshh!!

[Lewiston2Capt]

Thank you for the lightening of the mood Stayback! And good to see that you are ok. I was begining to wonder if you were blown somewhere over the rainbow with the weather this past sunday!

[FlyingKiwi]

Merriam-Webseter Dictunhairy

Main Entry: re·li·gious
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio
Date: 13th century
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS
- re·li·gious·ly adverb
- re·li·gious·ness noun

now as for No 3, that means I religiously consume BEER, am fervant in my liking for it, and zealous in not spilling any.

Care to join me for Guinness?

A novice said to a master, "I am sick and tired of the immorality that is all around us. There is fornication everywhere, drunkenness and drugs in the inner city, relativism in people's minds, and do you know where the worst of it is?"

The master said, "Inside your heart."
_________

A novice said to a master, "Tell me how to find deep, hidden secrets. I want to know beyond what is given to ordinary people to know."

The master said, "There are piles of diamonds out in the open. Why do you go lurking in caves, chasing after fool's gold?"
________

A novice said to a master, "I am humble."

The master said, "No, you are not humble."

Another novice said, "I am not humble."

The master said, "That's right; you are not humble."

[Lewiston2Capt]

"Man who smoke pot, choke on handle." - Confucius

[huff317]

Man who smoke pot, choke on handle." - Confucius

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I about choked, myself, just laughing!
:D :D

Peace

[E229Lt]

"TO BE IS TO DO." PLATO
"TO DO IS TO BE." SOCRATES
"DO BE DO BE DO." SINATRA

[ThNozzleman]

When you understand why you reject all other religions, you'll understand why I reject yours. That pretty well sums it up for this agnostic firefighter. If people really studied the history of Christianity, the REAL history, they would have no reason to follow such superstitious nonsense.:rolleyes:

[FlyingKiwi]

"SCOO BE DO BE DO." Famous Dog.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

All this doobie talk is making me hungry !:cool:

[FlyingKiwi]

A new young monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand. He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript.

So, the new monk goes to the head abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up. In fact, that error would be continued in all subsequent copies.

The head abbot replies, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son." So, the head monk goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscript is held in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years.

Hours go by, and nobody sees the old abbot. So, the young new monk gets worried and goes downstairs to look for the elder monk. He sees him banging his head against the floor. His forehead is all bloody and bruised, and he is crying uncontrollably.

The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?" With a choking voice, the old abbot replies, "The word is celebrate."

[Temptaker]

KParker,

No I am not going to post a numberical (misspelled on purpose) list, and I doubt anyone else is either. You opened this can of worms, under the guise of requiring help, so please spare the defensiveness. If you didn't want the reaction you should have either phrased the question so it was more apparent what the thread was about, or not posted it at all.

There is little point in telling me to be careful of what I say about your doctrine, frankly I don't care what YOUR doctrine says. Everything I mentioned before is taken straight out of the bible (with the exception of the animals), so you either believe it or you don't. If you are born again, which your original post implys then it all does pertain to your doctrine. It's a moot point, because like I said I really don't care. You are happy with your spiritual life and I am happy with mine, as are probably most of the people that have posted here.

I don't believe that anyone has judged you at all. Unless people telling you that they aren't interested in your preaching is judging. People have commented on your actions on this thread alone, nothing else. Maybe if you feel like you are being judged you should look at the reason why you feel that way.

Kiwi

Anytime, anywhere it would be a great pleasure to hoist a Guinness with you. ;)

LC, ELt Beautiful simply beautiful. Like poetry in motion. ;)

Stayback

I love you man! WHERE have you been? Things just aren't the same without you around. Thanks btw... didn't mean to wreck the mood.

He who farts in church sits in his own pew

[DFDRev]

I know that I am not an official "authority figure" in these forums, but I wish to propose a cease fire in this thread - from both sides.

The thread has digressed a bit further than I anticipated. If you have been following this thread from the beginning you are aware that I have been holding out on offering my stance on this whole issue. I will be offering my comments in the morning, but in the meantime I respectfully request your understanding and cooperation.

Thank you,
the Rev.


WEBTEAM: If I am out of line for making this request, I am sorry. I felt a postless evening may clear a few heads before posting resumes.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

I know this is a serious subject. Rev., I did not mean to make light of Christianity and from what I have seen, you are a tolerant and decent man. As a man of the cloth I know where you stand and I respect the fact that you treat folks the same no matter what their beliefs are.

[firefightermatt]

Kris you go brother I would have never had the guts to do that. Everyone else if you dont believe what he is saying then more power to you. Correct me if Im wrong but did he ever say that you have to believe what he believes??? No he didnt. He never said anything negative about any other religions....this is his belief and he is entitled to believe what he wants....he is also entitled to free speech under our constitution. I personally think this post should not be stopped by the webteam but if it is then that their decission and they can do that. He also NEVER judged anyone, nor did he say whether anyone was going to Heaven or Hell, he simple stated what his beliefs say. Jesus does say in the Bible that the only way to the Father is through Him. I will probably have things to add later but this is how I feel and I think this is just as good a place as any to spread the Word of Jesus Christ. Godd Bless everyone on these forums and may He be with you as you "slay the dragon."

[1835Wayne]

You hit the nail on the head!!!!!

As a man of the cloth I know where you stand and I respect the fact that you treat folks the same no matter what their beliefs are.

I feel that nothing more need be said......except...........


AMEN!!!!!!


:D

[TailboardJockey]

A motorist was driving in the country when he came upon a priest and a rabbi standing on the shoulder of the road, fishing. Next to them was a sign that read "Turn around. The end is near."
The motorist didn't like to be preached to, so he rolled down the window and yelled, "Mind your own business, you religious nuts!"
A few seconds later the two fishermen heard tires screech, then a splash. The rabbi turned to the priest and said, "I told you we should've written, "Bridge Out".

[NuckingFuts]

I believe in God and I'm already living in hell but just to play devil's advocate did you ever stop to think that the same people that wrote the Bible thought the world was flat too? Oh well....I guess if you believe in something you make it real. Is there a Killians and some poker around anywhere?

[DFDRev]

PREACH MODE: ON

I was totally unaware of this thread until the private messages and e-mails began flooding in asking me to check it out and "do something." I checked it out and opted at first to sit back and watch - just to see what direction things would go (as if I didn't know :rolleyes: ).

Alas, the time has come for me to post. I have asked the BMI Special Services to stand guard at the door - no one leaves until I am done (or at least until after I collect the offering).

These forums are really no different than your local firehouse. You've got people from all different backgrounds, cultures, faiths, status, etc... and therein lies the problem - it's filled with humans. Humans with the ability to think and choose for themselves.

The key issue of this thread is not heaven or hell or how to get to either place, rather it is about diversity. It's about accepting each other and appreciating what makes us unique. Certainly KParker is free to share his message - welcome to America! - and other are free not to listen, or disagree. The problem comes when we begin to attack and debate instead of discuss and understand.

There is no easy answer. We must agree to disagree and move on. As a Fire Chaplain I serve FFs of many faiths - that doesn't get in the way. Yes, they know that I am a Christian and that my insight/counsel/guidance comes from that perspective. My ability to offer this insight/counsel/guidance comes from the relationships that have been cultiviated though mutual respect and understanding.

I refrain from "preaching Jesus" in the firehouse because I realize that not everyone wants to hear it (regardless of whether or not I think they need to :) ). I will always answer direct questions about my faith - but in a civilized one-on-one discussion, not as a topic of public debate. Arguing about it accomplishes nothing. A great preacher once said, "Evangelize daily - if necessary, use words."

The bottom line is this - the firehouse ain't the place for it. I respect all of your opinions (even those of you with wrong ones ;) ) and I am glad that through this "discussion" I now have a better understanding of YOU. That is what will hold us together.

Stay safe,
the Rev.

PREACH MODE: OFF
You are free to leave.

[Lewiston2Capt]

Thank you Padre! A well worded and cool headed response to a topic that can frequently turn into a shouting match. It seems that religion and politics brings out the best in everyone! :rolleyes:

[Temptaker]

Thank you Rev

[jatkins7011]

Duh...this is such a dumb question---

Everyone knows that Firefighters and Marines get free passes to heaven!

:)

[1835Wayne]

"and when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he'll tell, another Marine/firefighter reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell!"


Thanks Rev, that was my point all along! I just couldn't articulate it very well!!!!!!:p

[CJMinick390]

Well said, Rev. Thanks for the insightful post. You are a credit to the cloth.

[FlyingKiwi]

Fair call Rev
Kia Kaha

[MalahatTwo7]

Well said Rev, and maybe your words will bring some cooling to this heated debate. :)

NuckingFuts, I will gladly join you for a Killian or two, although Guinness is the "weapon" of choice, but if you're buying, I'm drinking. Poker? Well lets just say that me 'n the cards, we don't get along very well, but what the heck, I'll loose gracefully to ya anyhow. :D

[KParker]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The time has come for me to make the last post that I will make on this thread. This thread was not what I intended for it to be, and it caused hard feelings, but it did get some thinking about just what they believe. Some of you might be mad at me, and I apologize for that. I talked about this real quick with the highly respected Rev, and I have decided to ask the Webteam to close this thread, or barring that I will delete this thread all together...then it will be over. This has turned into a theological battle that will never ever end...but at least this thread can. Fellows, we are a brotherhood, and always will be. I apologize (sincerely) for any damage that I have done. I understand that I may not have had the best methods, but I feel like I was straigh up with ya'll and honest with my beliefs. That may not be such a good thing, but only time will tell. Until the next time........Oh and if I drank I would throw one down with any one of ya'll bar none.....it's just a brother thing.....Stay Safe.......God Bless.....
-Kris

[Steamer]

Religion is one of those “trip wire” topics in just about any mixed setting, but for some reason especially in the firehouse. I think it has something to do with the typical personality traits of firefighters everywhere. Everybody has there own beliefs about faith, religion, and spiritualism. Some are stronger in those beliefs than others. Throughout time, people have been tortured and killed, and entire civilizations have been destroyed in the name of religion. We need only look to September of last year if anyone doubts that it still occurs.

It’s not just the differences between Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any of the other religions. There can be sustantial differences between the Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Methodist Churches in some cases. People can be just as resistant to acceptance of the differences in methodology in worship and teachings between those groups.

My beliefs are strong. I can post them here, and fail to understand why nobody else sees it as clearly as I do. Or I can (and should) accept that I am devout in my beliefs, as are many others here, and understand that I’m no more going to change their minds than they are going to change mine. (I can be pretty bull-headed) Be happy in that knowledge and move on. I choose to be content in knowing that I am right with my God, according to my faith. Anyone wants to talk about my beliefs…fine. I’ll be happy to.

Your mistake, however well intentioned, came from trying to preach in the “firehouse”. I’ve been doing this job a long time, seen this topic come up multiple times in the firehouse, and I’ve never seen a resolution to the argument whenever it occurs. It’s as old as religion itself, and I seriously doubt it’s gonna be settled on our watch whether at the firehouse or on these forums.

[Duffman]

I believe that all who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord will spend eternity in Hell. Now this is a very difficult concept, and I am afraid that I will draw quite a bit of heat for this, but this is the sad truth.

This is an interesting quote from someone so fervent in their beliefs.

"sad" truth?

By the way, you have admitted you might be wrong.

the only 100% way to know for sure would be to die and to find out


Are you prepared to tell the millions of non christians that their faith is baseless?

What about the many christian faiths who don't quite see things the same way. Are you 100% sure only those who believe as you are 100% correct?

[DFDRev]

Sorry, Duffman, but you arrived at the dance after the music stopped playing.

JUST DROP IT.

The debate has ended.

[ThNozzleman]

I don't think the debate will ever end as long as Christians keep ramming their beliefs down others throats. Believe me, I live in the Bible Belt of the South and I face it everyday. I'm sick of the "this is a Christian nation, like or get out" crap. Religion is good for nothing except to divide people. If you want to believe the fairy tales, that's fine with me. But do it in church, not the fire station or in government. This country is made up of many, many, different peoples and they ALL have bled, wept, and died for this country. The notion that you have to be religious to be patriotic is annoying. It's not us Pagans sending everyone to hell simply for a difference in opinion.

[StayBack500FT]

I wonder if the Green Giant gets jealous because his biiigg-arse thumbprint isn't on any of his products? Perhaps his thumb isn't as big as Dinty Moore's. They say "Size doesn't matter" but if you're runnin' around calling yourself a "Giant", I'm sure it does.

[dmsmith]

With all the varied opinions here, I'm surprised nobody asked Brother Maynard to bring out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.......

[5pts384]

I dreamed of Heaven the other night
And pearly gates swung wide,
Jesus with halo bright
Ushered me inside.

And there to my astonishment
Stood folks I judged and labeled
As quite unfit, of little worth,
And spiritually disabled.

Indignant words rose to my lips
But never were set free ...
For every face showed stunned surprise ~
No one expected me!

---Stay safe

[NuckingFuts]

Do you ever wonder why this isn't a big issue in places where people are struggling for survival? I think, sometimes, people have too much time on their hands. However, the religion and God I believe in doesn't judge anyone.(except child molestors and murders) He/she probably just gets a snicker out of everyone getting their panties in a bundle over nothing and missing the point entirely.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by DFDRev
We must agree to disagree and move on.
Stay safe,
the Rev.


My sentiments...exactly. Well done sir, er...uh..padre..father....Oh, no, I got it. It's BROTHER!...well done, Brother!

[Tooanfrom]

My lot follow Hurn the Hunter--God of the forest. My sister was refused to be Christened by a Church of England vicar--her name? Diane-Goddess of hunting (how did they get on with the Princess of Wales?)More grief,pain and war has been caused by religion than any other reason. There is no God--if he exists he is a Alcholic--who else would go to a wedding run out of booze and then "Turn water into Wine"?