No Nomex in Structure Fire

[Jedimike007]

I've heard some firefighters don't like wearing their nomex in a house fire so they know when to get out if it gets too hot. Just wondering what some thoughts are on this. It goes against all the training I've had, but just curious about some thoughts. I'm sure there are some "tricks" for detecting heat. I've heard some FF's leave a small opening between their gloves and firecoat sleeve.

[ADSNWFLD]

I used to think that it was necessary to leave some skin exposed to feel the heat. Since then I have decided that my ears are more valuble to me then to use them as thermometers. I have learned to work in my gear and feel comfortable with my ability to judge the heat. Learning to recognize the signs of flashover and rollover are important skills for every firefighter, that more than any subjective thoughts about the temp of the room will keep you alive and safe.

You hear people talk about temperatures and what is safe and what isn't. I have heard firefighters say that 400 or 500 isn't that hot, well let me tell you that it is more than enough to burn your skin. While it is ony half of flashover temps it will still put you in the burn center. If you are in a deteriorating situation wouldn't you like a little more protection.

For the medical people out there, What is a critical burn? Burns on the hands, feet and many others. Why would you want to risk these areas on your body?


Stay safe

[rfcmitch]

My coat, has a thermometer on it. It goes 2 - 9 is the scale and each represented like 200 and then goes through 900. all that happens is that it changes to a reflective color andthe rest appear black. so I would just see if you can find some of them.

[dfdex1]

Well I have never been in a burning building. But we have done some training on staying on the ground where the exposure to heat is minimal.It seems rather stupid and dangerous to have any skin exposed to the heat. Isnt it NFPA regulations that all openings in TO gear have at least a 1 inch flap of outer shell material covering all openings?


Grace Industries makes the "SUPER PASS 2 MOTION/TEMPERATURE DECTECTOR"
It senses when temperature reach dangerous levels and sounds a separate sounding alarm. Its only Ten bucks more than the standerd model.

Good luck,good training;)
dfdex1

[captstanm1]

I've heard some firefighters don't like wearing their nomex in a house fire so they know when to get out if it gets too hot.

I am not sure that I follow the question. Are you saying that they don't like NOMEX because they have to leave earlier?

As technology increases and fabric improves, new PPE will surface. Nomex was one the latest and greates coming after the "cotton duct" gear that was in use when I joined. Vapor Barriers and Thermal Liners improve. With each change the level of protection increases.

Think about this...In some cases the PPE that we wear will not even begin to show signs of failure until temperatures exceed 1300 degrees. The straps on your SCBA, your SCBA facepiece, your helmet and other parts of the PPE will begin to fail sooner. So...by the time you realize your butt is in a jamb...it is almost too late. A very well respected and nationally noted fire service leader once told me..."Stan...I believe that we are at a point where we are overprotecting our people to the point that before they realize they are in trouble they are dead." It may not be quite that bad...but...it is certainly something to think about.

There is nothing wrong with NOMEX. You just have to be aware of the limitations and capabilities of what ever type of material you purchase. You need to chose your outer shell based on what will be the best for your department based on the incidents you run.

[dfdex1]

captstanm, with all due respect, I belive he is talking about not wearing a NOMEX hood in a fire to feel the heat on his neck and ears like was done back in the day of rubber coat and 3/4 boot crust.

Respectfully submitted
dfd

[scbaguy]

Maybe we should apply that logic(not wearing your hood) to other fields:
Perhaps we should:
Stop wearing helmets
Stop wearing gloves on EMS runs
Stop useing our warning lights and sirens
Stop creating a 'safe zone' by blocking traffic on the highways
stop useing seatbelts
Hell, lets get rid of SCBA's and just use a hankie,(so you can smell whats burning).

Does anybody realize that the technical innovations and new products we see in magazines are not thought up because the engineers love us. The fire service overall is a small market. These new innovations and improvements are due to the fact that someone died, or was severly injured in a new way, or from a new hazzard.
That Nomex hood wasn't thought up by some goofball as a neat party hat, it was thought up because people got tired of burning their ears off. Longer duration SCBA bottles aren't a quirk, they are because we have had Firefighters die from running out of air. Turnout pants replaced 3/4 boots because guys got tired of burning their b@!ls off.
We should all know the limits and drawbacks of our equipment, but I for one will use every thing I can to keep me in one piece, healthy, so I can go home and hug my family. Please don't sacrifice the progress we have made, and the lessons we've learned.

[captstanm1]

DFDEX1...DUH!.....I completely missed that. Thanks my young friend for setting the feeble mind straight..

Ok....here is my take...

The fire service goes full cycle on all issues every so many years. When I first got in the "hoods" were just coming out and anyone that wore one was know as.....well...you know what they were known as!

Personnally, I wear mine all the time. My Girlfriend says I have cute ears and I prefer not to use them as thermometers. Now her on the other hand...I have to beat her with a stick to get her to wear her hood. I believe the term is...."I forgot"

Bottom Line...it is PPE...wear it!

[mtnfyre21]

captn
does your insurance cover i forgot

hope so

my dad has scarring on his ears from getting burned as a live burn instructor.

he has had 4 layers of blisters before not a pretty sight,

2197 10-8

working the mountqain state fair

[HalliganHook25]

Have any of you guys actually been in a working fire without a hood or turnout pants? Unless you have, it is pretty hard to criticize those of us who don't.
If you wear your helmet flaps down and your collar up, it provides a pretty good amount of radiant heat protection, but at the same time allows you to feel variations in temperature that can alert you to possible falshovers and can also direct you to the seat of the fire.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

If I could go back to 3/4 boots on structure fires, I WOULD in a heartbeat. I dont wear a nomex hood either. I think it should be a personal choice using sound reasoning. We werent even issued bunker pants my first 9 years in the fire service. I did not have to wear them until about 4 years ago. I am not saying you shouldn't wear bunker pants or hoods. I would like to think I am experienced enough to know what works for me.

[blackleather]

St Barnabas Burn Center just had a presentation at our station...does anyone know at what temperature skin begins to blister????

[RyanEMVFD]

My first 3 years on the fire dept we didn't even own hoods. It didn't bother me that much, the helmet flap protected my ears enough for me. Now i wear a hood all the time. The extra protection is nice plus it's required by my dept to wear the hood.

Hoods do come in handy for brush fires for keeping the smoke out of your nasal passage.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Off the top of my head, I would say skin starts to blister at 125-130 degrees farenheit...Just a guess. Of course a bad sunburn will cause blisters too.

[blackleather]

Exposed skin will blister (1st degree burns) at 180 degrees for 3 seconds.
Think I'll Wear My Hood...
:D

[apatrol]

As a hood is part of the NFPA PPE I would venture a guess that the next Dept to have someone injured or killed while not wearing the hood will be sued and the scene commander or Chief will be held criminally liable. Its no longer a question of whats comfortable to you. It quite simply is CYA to wear all your gear (or at least the Dept CYA to make you wear the gear).

Also I have never figured out who so many people need to feel ten or fifteen degree temp variation. I can feel the heat thru my mask just fine. When my face is farm i have no fear, when its warm and a little toasty I take a little look around, when its dang hot I get down, and when it spiders I leave and I dont have burnt ears.... Anyway I know its not quite that simple but I feel this issue is more about tradition and being macho both of which should be a category for the LODD list.

Stay Safe,

Andy

[HalliganHook25]

Originally posted by apatrol
As a hood is part of the NFPA PPE I would venture a guess that the next Dept to have someone injured or killed while not wearing the hood will be sued and the scene commander or Chief will be held criminally liable. Its no longer a question of whats comfortable to you. It quite simply is CYA to wear all your gear (or at least the Dept CYA to make you wear the gear).

If you are going to get injured in a fire, let alone getting killed, it is not going to have anything to do with wearing or not wearing a hood. If you are going to get burned bad enough to require a hood, then much much more of you is going to be burned than your ears. I would be more concerned by not wearing the collar flaps (which many, many people who wear hoods do not do) than by not wearing hoods. Ears are expendable, tracheas are not!!! The least protected part of a fireman is the exterior airway, and it is probably the most important.

[captstanm1]

Haligan.....No one was actually criticizing you..the question was about th opinion on wearing hoods or not..

When I first got in in 1971 there were only 3/4 boots issued and no hoods in my volunteer department. My Cairns Leather helmet (which cost me $71.00 including the leather front at that time by the way0 only had short ear flaps... Most of us bought our own hoods. and by 1975 or 76 my junior department had raised enough money recycling newpapers to equip all the juniors with bunker pants. We were in style let me tell you and the seniors were still wearing 3/4. It was the early 80's before I managed to convince my volunteer department to buy bunker pants for everyone. It was a tough choice for them to make. It was either buy a trophy cabinet or the pants. We got the trophy cabinet first.:rolleyes:

When I started in my career department in 1979 they still only isssued 3/4 boots and if you had your own hood you could wear it.

If you have em I suggest you wear em. I will not fault any department that does not wear em for whatever the reason. That does not mean I agree with their philosophy..

I just don't think I like continuing to use my ears and neck as thermometers....

[scbaguy]

HalliganHook,
yes I have worn 3/4 boots and been without a hood in a structure fire, more than one actually. I started in the fire service in a volunteer department, and money was an issue. We were given long coat, 3/4 boots and a helment. A few years later I started with a Paid department, and was issued a hood, and bunker pants. I have experience with both. If anyone wants to continue to were boots and no hood, that is their descision. But consider this:

Many of the 'improved' materials being used today in construction and furnishings are composed of a great deal of plastic products. Carpets, furniture, bedding, appliances are all useing an increasing amount of plastic and polymere in there construction. In short, fires have a tendency to burn hotter, and burn faster than in years past. The days of cotton upholstery and cotton insulation, and metal appliances are gone.
Remember, a pound of wood burning gives off 9,000 Btu's, a pound of 'plastic' burning gives off 18,000-24,000 Btu's.
In response to this increased threat, we have fully covering PPE. Helment flaps pulled down do give a certain amount of protection to RADIANT heat. With the increased Btu output of todays fires, the room can and does reach flashover temp. faster. The increased room temp is convected heat, not radiated. the hood provides an insulation barrier between your skin and that CONVECTED heat.

I personally do not want to use my skin to tell when the temp varies. Good training over flashover and fire behavior should be used to judge the signs of a room getting too hot. Experience, both your own and that passed down from vetrans should be used to learn what to look/listen for. There are other ways to 'watch' the heat buildup without chanceing your skin. Pass devices can be used for their thermal alarms, signs in the fire/smoke itself also.

When we put on new levels of protection, be they hoods, or pants, or any other form of protective equipment, we do lose some of our'old' senses. But we then learn or develop new ways to work around the drawbacks of the equipment. The fire service, and more importantly the People in the Fire SDervice MUST learn to evolve with the new technology, and use it to OUR advantage. The advancements in PPE are just that, advancements.

Veterans: If you are comfortable with boots and no hoods, tha is your decision. But please don't Poo Poo the idea to the younger guys. Be willing to see that their have been advancements in equipment and methods since you started.

Newbies: Listen to the Vets., but realize that YOUR training is newer and probobly more up to date than theirs. Vetrans have a lot of experiance to offer, some of it can save your life one day. Realize that some of their advice is based on opinion more than fact. (100 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress.) Use all of your protective equipment, and be willing to learn about advancements in PPE.

I bet there were more than a few arguments about those "air bottles" when they were introduced. Just because the 'Old Heads' didn't use them doesn't mean they are not a good idea!!

[fireman077]

Originally posted by HalliganHook25
Have any of you guys actually been in a working fire without a hood or turnout pants? Unless you have, it is pretty hard to criticize those of us who don't.
If you wear your helmet flaps down and your collar up, it provides a pretty good amount of radiant heat protection, but at the same time allows you to feel variations in temperature that can alert you to possible falshovers and can also direct you to the seat of the fire.

Yes I have. Just because you are more aware of changing/rising temps, does that equal your response/reflex time to exit that environment before the burning starts? What role does your bodies "adreneline rush" have in masking your ability to detect pain sensations that are at levels that would otherwise be untolerable?

I want to express an idea from the company officer (management) perspective. So far, it seems the responses have focused on "the individuals" right to wear or not wear certain levels of protection. But look at it from the department/organizational side. Failure to wear supplied/required PPE can increase the risk for injury - identifiable risk is preventable risk. What is/are the fallouts from incurring an injury while on-duty?

1. Loss of an employee from the manpower roster during recovery time. Is there an overtime cost for the replacement? In a volunteer setting, will this effect the ability to get a right-sized response on scene?

2. Disruption of crew consistency. How will the fill-in assigned member mesh with the crew? When you get injured, are you taking away any special knowledge, skills, or abilities that cannot be replaced during your absence?

3. Emotional impact on the members you work with? Will they have feelings of guilt for not taking actions to help prevent or minimize the injury?

4. Emotional impact on your family. Will your significant other(s) be unusually stressed by the injury?

5. Long term disfigurement, some people call them "battle scars" and wear them like a badge of honor. Will those wounds and scars cause additional problems (infection site, limiting range of motion, etc.)
later?

6. Will the time off effect your part-time work (career) or paying job (volunteers)? Will that effect your family?

7. Going to physical therapy everyday until the blisters are healed -is that your idea of a good time?

I am sure I could list more, but I think you get the idea. The decision not to wear proper PPE has a significant impact on more than just the wearer/nonwearer. Let's be safe and smart....

John

[blackleather]

Well Said John!!!

[scbaguy]

I think we have to realize that there are other ways to sense the heat of a fire and know when to leave, than to risk yur skin. We just have to learn something new. We have to attend a traing session and learn a new way rather than sit around the station and reley on old methods that have proven unsafe. My life, health and safety are worth a little time training to prevent injuries.

[captstanm1]

Training and understanding fire behavior are certainly the key. You have to know your PPE and what it's limitations are and what the performance ratings are. Then you have to apply that to your training and recognize when you are in a "no win" situation before you get hurt. Sure...there are some unknowns that you can not prepare for. But we need to do all we can to protect ourself for sure.

I am still reminded of the quote from an seasoned and well respected fire service leader that I used earlier in this thread.

..."Stan...I believe that we are at a point where we are overprotecting our people to the point that before they realize they are in trouble they are dead."

[HalliganHook25]

Ok...on a different tack then.
As far as total protective gear goes, for those departments that wear hoods do you also get the highest layer of protection availible for turnout gear? For example, NFPA/OSHA require at least 38 tpu for gear. We wear the minimum tpus that the manufacturer of our gear will make - 41 tpu. This is also an important factor.

You may have misunderstood my replys earlier. I am saying to the new guys as well as the old, that progression and use of technology is a good thing, but don't be blind about it. Try different things to see what works for you. Fires in non-windowed/non-vented compartmentalized concrete structures are not meant for 3/4 boots and no hoods. They are just too hot, probably too hot for a direct attack on the fire. However, in MY OPINION (nothing else) a bread and butter structure fire with a competent truck crew that aggressively vents the building, hoods are not needed or even necessarily a good idea.

BTW - I have worn hoods before. People within my department wear hoods. They are not mandatory, nor are they prohibited. People are allowed to make their own decisions like the adults we all are.

[FireLt1951]

My department does not issue hoods, members have purchased them on their own and that is alright with me. Remember that NFPA is a standard it is not law. Personally I have always choosen not to wear one. My collar and ear flaps with a velcro strap work just fine. It leaves just enough area for me to feel the heat around me. I feel that we have become over protected to a large extent. Training is a good idea but it is not the end all. You will run into situations that your training never covered, especially if you do not do live structure burns. You can't always see conditions inside the fire when making your attack, to leave a little open space will help you know how fast conditions are changing and you can act accordingly. I'm more inline with HalliganHook 25, but then again I'm a dinosaur, what do you expect:D

[firegod911]

Having spent the first half of my career without a hood, I must say I have enjoyed the second half much more. While it was a hassle and uncomfortable in the beginning, I now find it second nature, and wouldn't don an SCBA without it.

I have a friend who I teach with at the State Fire Academy. For years he did not wear a hood. Recently he went in to have hardened nodules surgically removed from both ears. His doctor told him it was from the constant heat.

Blackleather - Your numbers are a little low. When the skin starts to blister it's a 2nd degree burn which actually begins at around 135 degrees F. 3rd degree burns (charring) can start as low as 158 degrees F. This is all pretty scary knowing that a ploycarb faceshield melts at around 350 degrees F. (A common occurance)

HalliganHook25 - Of course you don't need a hood, what with the truck showing up after the engine crew has already tapped the fire. hahahaha

Just a joke bud, from an old hose jockey.

FG

[firefighter598]

I too have fought fire with and with out a hood. And I too enjoy fighting fires with the hood on. My first department did not issue bunker pants and hoods, the department that I am on now requires full PPE for even smoke checks, and other incidents. I would not think about going into a burning structure or fighting a car fire with out my hood.

I will be the first one to complain about how hot it is on days like today when the tempature is in the 90's. But I would rather have the extra protection that all of my bunker gear offers rather than feel the pain of a burn again.

Our department carries the safety another step in that before you enter a burning structure your partner checks you and you check him or her to make sure that not even one part of the skin is unprotected. I think that that is a lot better than the way we did things in the late 70's and early 80's.

I too want to come home in one piece to my family every time I respond to a call

[AXEYAZ]

I aslo started before bunker pants and hoods etc. And I have also came out of many jobs with my hood around my neck but not my head ( old habits die hard ) but having recently visited my brothers in tampa burn center and seeing the melted gear they were wearing, including burnt hoods, melted face masks and scortched gear, my eyes have been opened. None of them had intended to be caught in a flashover, but it happened, and thank god they were all wearing all their gear including hoods.

[dfd3dfd3]

I used to not wear my hood, for reasons everyone already knows about but I had 2 incidents very close to each other where i singed my ears pretty good. One was helping to do a live burn for a volunteer dept and another was on a house fire. After those I wear my hood now. I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that. Being overprotected is a def problem and u do have to be more aware of conditions.

[bfd1071]

This debate comes up every so often, it gets the same people in a uproar. Let me tell you how I feel. I am on a dept that does not issue hoods, and to tell you the truth, I have never seen anyone wearing a hood on my dept either. I do not see the need nor do I feel better protected wearing a hood. I feel more endangered wearing a hood then not. I used to work at the state fire academy where hoods are mandatory. The job I had was to lite the fires for the recruit class. We used to keep a temp gauge in the room at ceiling level, what I was seeing was bad examples for the recruits . We teach them to stay down, but they see us standing. You get a false sense of safety wearing a hood!

I See alot of people from smaller depts posting there thought on this matter, alot of people who do not have all that much experience in fire situations. Alot of people post on there training experience only. I have read comments about a temp gauge on your coat how it changes colors, got a a question, how would you know, you can not see a damn thing!!!In a good smokey fire the only sense you have left is feel. You have to sight, no smell no taste. you take away your sense of feeling, then you are screwed. I like how people tell me to look at the ceilling and read the warning signs of flash over, it's ashame you can not see the tip of your face piece let alone the ceilling! the same people who tell you this learned that trick in the controled cement burn building. Here's a question for all the wear your hood or you are gonna die folks out there. How many firefighters are trapped in flash over today as compared to the 1970's? Anwser..the same!! only difference there were more fires in the 1970's.

If you want to wear your hood, please do so and stay safe. I choose not to, I know my limits.

[bfd1071]

"I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that."

Dude....so very bad. Farther is not better, with this statement it is exactly why you do not wear a hood. I believe I read some where that the safe zone is less then 5 feet from the exit in case of flash over. You can survive if you can get out in less then 2 seconds. the Avg is 2.5 feet a second. Mr aggressive travels 10 feet, because with his hood and can be overly aggressive, the room flashes, he dies 5 feet from the door or window. But thats ok, he had his hood on. His buddy with him, not wearing a hood, feels the intense heat before flash over, retreats, makes it out with 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his ears, tells the rit team the Mr. Agressive is still in the room. Mr. No hood goes home in a few days sith scared ears, mr Agressive joins the heavenly fire dept. At my Age, I'll take the burnt ears to be with my wife and children.

[DixieFire53]

HalliganHook25 I have been a Paid firefighter for 12 years in a relatively busy city. I have been in many Structure fires. I have been in some fires without a hood for reasons beyond my control. Even with your earflaps on your helmet down and your collar up you still get bare spots of skin. They have developed the hoods for a good reason. There are other way’s to tell the conditions of the fire. (Thermal layer, sings of a flash over,.and I could go one for a while) The hood is a product of developing technology, Such as the thermal imaging camera. We have a thermal imaging camera on every rescue truck in the city and at least one camera goes in on every fire. I am sure we could debate that peace of technology and find someone with a bad opinion on it. Not wearing a hood is the “old school”. With a well trained department wearing a hood is safer then not wearing one. But…..this is just my opinion!

:D

[Tanker61]

I must live in a different world:(
Wearing a hood has NEVER been an issue.
Using your ears as a temp. guide is still
the issue, but our discussions have been
on which type of hood to wear. The 'old'
hands insist on sock hoods, while the rest
of us prefer the Clifford Reed hood made by
Globe. Its like wearing PBI gear on your head.
You can walk into a structure where before you
had to crawl before.
Same argument, different set of standards.
Oh well
:(

[HalliganHook25]

I REALLLLLLLLLY hope you are kidding when you say you walk into a structure where before you had to crawl.

This is EXACTLY why I disagree with hoods.

[bfd1071]

"You can walk into a structure where before you
had to crawl before."

Again...point is made. So where is the argument. With people like this we should Ban the hoods!

[Tanker61]

Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
We can go in upright.
If you 'walk' into a structure in our district,
you generally trip over something if you
don't have the thermal camera.
We are trained and know just how far we
can go in. However,someone who has never
been into a structure with a hood has never
remotely reached that point.
Every progressive fire department in the
Houston Metro area use this hood.
I have never heard of anyone accidently
going in too far. Its generally those who
are bound and determined to join the melted
face shield club. But even at that, they
still don't cook their ears.
We are very safety minded in our county.
No tags or hoods and you don't go in.

[HalliganHook25]

Originally posted by Ken61
Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
We can go in upright.


And the difference is...........????????

If you are standing up inside a fire, you either have some strange training down there or you are not doing it correctly.

Of course, it's MY OPINION. But I am sure that my brother from Boston from earlier in the thread will agree, if no one else will.

Stay Safe.

[bfd1071]

I second that pion Halligan.

"I have never heard of anyone accidently
going in too far. "

Ken, Firefighters are getting in way over there heads all the time. We are so protected by our gear we do not FEEL the danger until it is to late.


A few months back I was scanning the threads about a question that was asked from a New firefighter. He asked " when is it time to bail out?" One response hit me in the square in the head. A so called experienced firefighter from Utah told him he waits until the fire pushes him to belly crawl before he starts to think about bailing out. Come to find out, he posted his website on the profile, this guy's department runs 1 fire a year. Last year that 1 fire was a car fire. They did 14 calls all year.

Moral of this story, there are morons out there that do not have a clue or the experience. Acording to this guy he would put himself in a bad position because his gear allowed him to. He would never have lasted as long as He say's he does if he does not wear a hood. Unless he's so brain damaged he can not tell he is getting cooked.

[First In]

We went through this argument down here, about 15 years ago. I can also remember the argument about not wearing SCBA's because we wouldn't know what type of material was burning. An "experienced" firefighter could smell the smoke and identify the products burning. They usually had burnt ears, too. The only time they wore their hoods was to keep their ears warm while they rode the tailboard or stood looking over the cab going down the road. I vote for the hood. Hey, but then again, I also wear my seatbelt!!;)

[FireLt1951]

BFD1071, HalliganHook 25

I'm definately on your side with this one. We're getting to the point where we are so encapsulated that it has become dangerous. I keep hearing talk about signs of flashovers etc. In a lot of fires if proper ventilation techniques are done correctly your flashover posibilities dwindle considerably (good truck work). Your vision is usually nil to absolutely none upon entry into any good working fire, therefore you have a much harder time seeing conditions, your relying on your senses of feeling and hearing. I want to feel that heat, so I know when it's time to back out or slow my forward progression. I'm not waiting until I can feel it at floor level, thats to late and your rearend is going to be in a sling real quick. Maybe I should just stand up to feel the heat, NOT.

[First In]

jedimike:

Don't waste your time with nomex. Check out he Reed hood by Globe. :D :D :D

[ggtruckie]

Hoods were NOT designed for us to be able to go deeper in the structure, they were designed to protect us better. I believe the problem to be is that some people think that they can go deeper in the structure because of these hoods, the hoods are insurance. Yea you can go deeper into a structure with a hood on, Just like seat belts, just cause you wear your seat belt doesn't mean you can drive the car faster, it means that in case you do get in an accident you have better chance of living. Same thing with hoods.

Like one person said that you can stand up with the red hoods, well sure you can, dont use your gear to the limits cause if something goes wrong then your gear will fail and you wont have time to get out, it will stand up to this torment so that when things do turn bad then you have time to get out. You want to keep that buffer zone just in case.

Hood or no hood, I think it should be a personal choice, some people came up and learned how to fight fire that way, and that is fine use. your head, pay attention, and get some.

Peace out.

[First In]

You're right ggtruckie. Hood or no hood, its a personal choice. (If you take NFPA out of the picture) I respect your opinion, whichever it is. For those that choose no hood (or even a sock hood), you'd better have that doorway blocked well, cause the boyz in the hood will run right over you and put out your fire! Seen it happen. :D

No hood::(
Sock hood::o
Reed hood::cool:

[pwc606]

I am a hood man myself. I have been there without a hood and with it. Like Stan said I don't like using my ears and neck for thermometers.

There is no dress rehersal in life.

Be safe everyone.

Matt:cool:

[scbaguy]

I think some of us are saying the same things, but comming from different directions about it.
As has been stated before, there are always 'veterans' with only training fires, or car fires, or they work in a slow department that sees a couple hundred calls ayear. I think these guys start as many of the "which is better" threads as they chime in on.

HalliganHook, Mikey, Firstin, GGtruckie, we are all danceing around the same issue: TRAINING and EXPERIENCE.

Older guys who learned to use their ears have a valid reason to not were hoods. They were trained that way, and have experience with that use to back it up. They use their traing and experience to fight fire and no how the fire is progressing, and get a 'feel' of when it's time to pull back.

Newer guys have been trained while useing the "fully encapsulateing" gear includeing hoods. They have been taught the limitations of thier gear, and it's drawbacks. They have also been taught ways to replace the drawbacks of their gear. they have worn their hoods and have experience with fighting fire without 'feeling' the heat on their ears, but watching the ceiling, hearing the fire, and feeling the relative heat through the mask and coat.

It really amounts to the same thing! What both camps have in common is they are useing their training and experience to do what they do.
If we are talking about the same level of trainging, and the same level of experience (with whichever meathod you use), it's not which one is better, but which do you prefer.

Personally, I have seen and felt the difference and I will take the hoods, and use the other methods I have learned to keep me from getting to far in. Halligan, I suspect you will use the ears. Neither of us is 'better' than the other, we just do things differently.
I think we owe it to those that have come after us to have them use what ever training they have, and not just copy what the old guy does. The 'Old Guy' can do things that would get the newbie hurt, because he has the experience to back it up.
:D The best thing for newbies would be to force them to wear hoods, or put them on the truck, that way us hosers would have the fire out by the time they get in.:D

[dfd3dfd3]

To qualify my statements, Im not someone that just has book experience or whatever or am on a dept that only runs a couple hundered calls a yr. On avg I prob go on around 40 structural fires a year. I dont know everythig but i do know a lil based on my actual experience. There are fires when u know u are goin to take a beating and u have to be aggresive, wearing a hood alows me to be more aggresive when i need to be. Thats what i was getting at.

[nonameFF]

Originally posted by captstanm1

I am still reminded of the quote from an seasoned and well respected fire service leader that I used earlier in this thread.

..."Stan...I believe that we are at a point where we are overprotecting our people to the point that before they realize they are in trouble they are dead."



Are we overprotecting them or undertraining them? Perhaps if they were better trained, they wouldn't get into trouble?

[Capt1GVFD]

NFPA standards require the use of full PPE at all structure fires. Common sense requires the same. The equipment is designed to protect you. How you use it determines if it really does. I have been inside working fires and had conditions change so rapidly that if I had not worn my hood I would have been badly burned. You never know when a window will blow out(or be broken by some ambitous pup with a pike pole)and give the fire the extra O2 it needs to take off. Too much protection is an oxymoron. However, if beeing too protected is a concern, I would suggest you focus more effort on training your people to discern the signs of incipent flashover than permitting them to remove safety gear.
There are tools on the market to detect the conditions changing...heck, there are gizmo's for everything - Thermal imaging camera's with gradient heat sensors, coats that change colors, I've even seen a coat that goes into audible Alarm, when exposed to too much heat(past issue of American Heat).
All of those are tools to be used, but remember that your people are only as good as you train them. I would recommend wearing your full gear at all times, but recognize its limiations and train, train, train your people around those limitations. Don't remove PPE to stay safe, teach your people how to function with Full PPE so they are safe.

I'm lincesed to practice law in Pennsylvania, and no where else so I cannot comment on other states laws, however, I'd recommend you Check with your workers comp carrier or department lawyer to see if this activity risks your coverage. Some Insurance companies could deny your claim if full PPE is not worn and an injury occurs. That is a possiblity under PA law. Depending upon your states laws, you could also be potentially exposing your fire dept to potential civil liability for ...failure to supervise... failure to train...etc., if you permit that kind of conduct to contine. Talk to your dept lawyer to get an opinion on this matter under your state law if this is going to be a common practice.

That's my two cents for what's it worth.

[Bones42]

When you're wearing your hoods, do you still wrap your neck collar around, fastened and raised? Do you still pull your earflaps down? If so, good. If not, sorry, not "NFPA compliant". I have seen too many guys say they don't need to use the ear flaps and neck collars since they have hoods on.

[HalliganHook25]

Remember - NFPA does not equal law. Only OSHA is law, and even then, only when the state has adopted an OSHA administration.

Also, as far as training goes, we still train our new kids without hoods. From what I have seen, the only ones that wear hoods are laterals from other smaller departments who were not taught the "no-hood" technique to begin with, and who buy their own.

[Capt1GVFD]

I agree NFPA standards are not law. If you are an instructor and you teach someone to engage in a practice that deviates from a nationally accepted safety standard - such as an NFPA standard, you do so at your own risk. You do not have to "break a law" to be found negligent. For example, if you teach "don't use the hood", and someone is seriously burned, either in training or on the actual fire ground, then the NFPA standard becomes relevant in the negligence action that will likely follow. Negligence in PA consists of a DUTY, a BREACH of that Duty, and a CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP to an INJURY. It's a Four part test.

To establish the DUTY aspect of the negligence action, a Plaintiff's lawyer will use that standard against you in court of law. You have to understand how the standards are used in court to appreciate the seriousness of the issue. For example, the Plaintiffs Lawyer will stand there and read the NFPA standard on full PPE to you in front of the jury and have you admit that you taught someone to do something different, ie. that they did not need to use that protective equipment. That testimony establishes your duty and the breach of the duty. ie..deviating from the standard.
Then they will put a medical expert on the stand to testify that the burns the deformed man sitting at plaintiff's counsel's table has could have been avoided, if he was only wearing a hood. That's your causal relationship and the injury part. It's a simple case to prove, if the action can be brought in your state.

I'm a Pennsylvania State Fire Academy Local Level instructor. When I teach students, I do it by the book. (Essentials of Fire Fighting 4th ed.) That way if they screw up in the field and try to blame me for their injuries, I have the protection of the standard to assert as a defense that I taught them properly, but that they chose to do their own thing. If you want to take the risk of making up your own standard...its a free country, ... but I think you do so at a risk.

Can this happen in your state? If its anywhere other than Pennsylvania I'm not licensed to comment, but, it could in Pennsylvania. Just a thought.

[nonameFF]

Originally posted by HalliganHook25
Remember - NFPA does not equal law.

No, but NFPA is a recognized national standard. Two of the biggest problems with the fire service is the lack of standards and the lack of a common voice. NFPA is only good to firefighters when it supports what they want or supports their argument. But when that annoying little standard is not in accordance with what a firefighters argument is, watch out. "Its not law." "Its only a suggestion." etc.

Of course, depending on where you are, the argument that its not law may actually be incorrect. Here in NJ, many NFPA standards are "law." Our Divsion of Fire Safety or Department of Labor has adopted the standard by reference.

For example, the New Jersey Administrative code (12:100-10.6) provides:

1. Protective footwear shall comply with NFPA 1974-1987, Protective Footwear for Structural Firefighting.
2. The use of three quarter length boots may continue for volunteer firefighters until replacement of the boots is necessary. At time of replacement, bunker pants and bunker boots as required by NFPA 1974-1987 must be purchased.


And as far as hoods go in NJ (12:100-10.9):

12:100-10.9 Protective clothing; head, eye and face protection

(a) Head protection shall consist of a protective head device with ear flaps and chin strap which meet the performance, construction and testing requirements of 29 CFR Part 1910.156(e)(5) or NFPA 1972-1987, Helmets for Structural Fire Fighting.
(b) Full facepieces, helmets, or hoods of breathing apparatus which comply with 29 CFR 1910.134 and N.J.A.C. 12:100-10.10 shall be deemed to comply with (a) above.
(c) A full protective hood shall be provided for the firefighter that meets the performance, construction, and testing requirements of NFPA 1971-1991, Protective Clothing for Structural Fire Fighting.
1. Firefighters shall be provided with a full protective hood December 7, 1999, provided that if the wearing of the hood interferes with the proper fit of the helmet, a full protective hood need not be provided until the helmet becomes unserviceable and is replaced.


Of course, in typical NJ fashion, you will note that C above requires that the hood be "issued" but not necessarily "worn."

Now where was I on my soap box... oh yeah....

Did you ever wonder why the fire service is the bastard step-child of the Federal Gov't (and most State Gov'ts)?? Perhaps it is because we can't get our act together with standard procedures, systems or equipment standards.

If the fire service ever got organized, we would be the most powerful lobby in Washington. But as long as the group from Massachussetts can't agree with the group from Oregon on what equipment is necessary (such as PPE hoods), any chance of getting more from Congress is unlikely.

[Tanker61]

When I brought up the subject of the 'Reed' hoods, I knew I would
ruffle a few feathers. I knew it would take the hood issue up one notch. I was also hoping to let everyone out there know there was
an 'improvement' out there.
I am not the best person with words, so thank God for scbaguy,
no_name_ff & capt1_gvfd.
Believe me, I know I have limitations. My hood is made of PBI,but
my gear is only Nomex. This is where training and experience takes
over. I'll go only as far as Nomex will take me and count on the
hood to offer me just a little extra level of protection when some-
thing unforseen goes wrong.
A fellow FF was on a fire with another dept. Someone with a pike
pole got a little too happy with it and caused a flashover. If he
hadn't been wearing his 'Reed' hood he probably wouldn't be with us.
Fires are burning more advanced materials & fuels these days. Our
equipment and training has to be just as advanced.

[ShuswapFireF]

On a previous thread about hoods somebody posted this photo a firefighter no wearing a hood.

[TCFD4TRUCK]

WAT I FIND THAT WORKS PRETTY GOOD IS WEARING A VERY THIN HOOD, BUT KEEP YOUR HELMET FLAP AND YOUR COLLAR DOWN. YOU GET GOOD PROTECTION FROM YOUR HOOD, BUT YOU CAN ALSO FEEL THE HEAT!:o

[fireman077]

To everyone that feels that wearing a hood is an individuals choice, I respect your opinion - but I disagree. Your individual actions may effect the entire team. For those who do not feel that they should have to wear them or chose not to, does your department or agency have a written policy that gives you the latitude to chose what protective gear is worn?

In my department, hoods are part of the issued gear and we have written policy that states that while engaged in suppressison operations, all PPE will be worn. As a supervisor, I do not have the ability to allow some not to wear the gear, at least not without violating policy. Additionally, on the Virginia First Report of Accident Form (Workers Comp), there is the questions - Were all safeguards provided? Were all used? If a firefighter gets injured as a result of not using issued PPE, can workers comp benefits be denied? I don't know, I am not an attorney. Can I be considered negligent in my duties as a supervisor and be to blame/responsible for failing to properly supervise members under my command? Probably.

I know rules & laws are different from area to area, these are just some of the issues that I deal with in my little corner of the world.

John

[stillPSFB]

Interesting thread. Unfortunately we are in a different world down here - hoods are rarely seen, they don't teach you to stay low, they don't teach you about warning signs of flashover, and you are usually certified in SCBA (and thus able to do an interior attack) without ever having dragged a hose into a structure (burning or otherwise). I shudder just thinking about it.

Good to see all the regulars are still on the forums - I've been off the forums for a few months.

[pumper41]

In reply to psfb, in the state of New South Wales, Australia, hoods (known as "flash hoods" here) are issued to all SCBA trained firefighters, both career and retained (paid vol) in the New South Wales Fire Brigades and unpaid volunteer in the NSW Rural Fire Service. Personally I wear mine for all interior structural firefighting and high risk exterior fires.

[stillPSFB]

G'day pumper41,

Yep, and you have real structural firefighting turnouts as well I believe - certainly a heck of a lot better than our single layer cotton trousers and woollen coat. I'd also bet that you use SCBA at car fires instead of sucking a lungful of black crap. Somedays I have to ask myself why am I doing this?

Take care.

[captstanm1]

Bones....Excellent questions... I can truthfully answer yes to them...but can also say that my collar usually does not stay fastened.

No_name_FF Excellent point on the training issue. Better training is certainly a start. What he was referring to when discussing "overprotection" was this. We continue to improve fabric and technology in PPE as far as materials and liners. But the components of SCBA, Helmets, Facepieces does not keep up. So if you chose the top of the line fabric the firefighter is well protected from the radiant heat by the coat and pants but some of the materials in the SCBA components fail at a lesser temperature. So before the garment reaches it's maximum THL or TPP, the critical stuff such as SCBA has already begun to fail and the firefighter may be unaware that it is happening because of the "comfort level" in his gear.

HalliganHook25...NFPA may not be law...but its' standards are developed by our peers (among others) and they are Nationally Recognized Standards. Whether you chose to adopt them or your state adopts them is up to the individuals involved. However...it has been said over and over and is now being proven...if something happens, the NFPA standards are going to be referenced for compliance. If you have not chosen to follow them...you are going to lose.

[DFD FF]

Just curious, how do you see your helmet faceshield while battling a good attic fire?

[whflhff]

My department issues hoods and we are all expected to wear them. As a new FF (about 3 years) I was taught to wear a hood so of course that’s what I’m comfortable doing.

While at the state fire school for a refresher, I asked “how do you know when it’s too hot” (I was taking a 2 day structural FF course). This seems like an obvious question but I have only seen a few structure fires and those weren’t serious enough to be worried about over extending myself. There answer was that you would feel it through your bunker gear.

That seems to be about right. The second day of the class we drilled in a 3 story, concrete fire tower that the instructors heated up pretty good. My team was assigned truck company duties and my job was to do the primary search on the 3rd floor (or attic). Man was it hot, it felt like I had ants inside my coat (everything else was OK). I was just about to tell my partner that I had to back out when we found the victim (a dummy) and pulled him out.

So now I don’t know what to believe. The few working fires I have been in haven’t bothered me (at least because of heat, I have been scared silly because I got dumb and got lost). But I have had 2 drills now where I could feel the heat right through my gear, the one mentioned above and another where I got a mild burn on my leg (through the bunker pants) from contact with an iron stairway (I was pulling a dummy down the stairs, again! Well, OK, I am on a truck company so I guess I deserve it). I’m sure it’s just my inexperience but to this point, in my experience, my gear tells me when it’s time to leave.

This has been a great thread and I’m learning a lot as well as absorbing some of the crust.

Thanks!

[firegod911]

WHF, you are a godsend for training officers. Someone who is looking for education, and not just training in how it's "always been done."

While I'll never claim to be an expert, (which BTW is someone with a briefcase, and at least 50 miles from their home), I can give you some tips.

1) You can't get enough live fire training, ever. Acquired structures, Flashover Trailers, concrete training facilities, flammable liquid props, garbage dumpsters, heck, even ARFF props. They all give you a different sense of what to look, and look out for. If you only have a concrete tower available, discuss with the Drillmaster using different amounts of Class A materials in each burn, or change tactics such as limiting ventilation before, during, and after the attack.

2) Practice hard on ventilation techniques (you're a truckie, so you know what I mean). If you think the area is too hot, IT IS. Re-think your tactics at that point. Did you vent before going in, or is the fan still sitting in the back compartment? Remember to cooridinate the ventilation with your attack.

3) Watch and learn about flashovers. If you don't have a prop available to see it first hand, get ahold of the video "Flashover" by Vincent Dunn. It is well done, and gives you a basic idea of what to look for in a flashover. I would strongly urge everyone to seek out their closest flashover prop (Class A or LPG)and train with it

4) Finally, wear all your PPE. The ears became the designated "Temp. gauge" not because they were the best at it, but only because hoods came late in the game from a technology standpoint. (Good thing gloves were invented first, eh.) :eek: :eek:

FG

[bfd1071]

"Just curious, how do you see your helmet faceshield while battling a good attic fire?"

Thank you DFD FF. Again, when people tell me they can see anything in a good smokey fire, that tells me they have never been in a good smokey fire. People, you will not be able to see your shield melt, and if you do, it's too late!!

When you start feeling the heat in your gear you are setting yourself up for a burn. Your defeating the gear. It's amazing we have not suffered more deaths.

[HalliganHook25]

When you begin to truly feel the heat through you turnout gear, you are already getting at least a slight burn. Maybe it's only a first degree "sunburn" but try taking a shower after feeling that heat and see what the hot water feels like against your skin.
At the moment when you begin to feel the heat, the thermal protection afforded you by your gear is already penetrated, and if you are sweating or have wet gear, you are about to be steamed alive. You do not have enough time at this point to avoid a burn by getting out of the room, and if you use a hose to cool off the room, chances are you will end up upsetting the thermal layer enough to send steam and heat right down on top of you.

[ThNozzleman]

Does anyone know of a low cost, high-temp warning device? I know they make PASS devices with this built in, but we use Scott's with integrated PASS's. Maybe something you could just clip on your coat that would sound an audible alarm if the ambient temp reached a critical level. We have a Scott Eagle II with thermal readout on it...so that helps a little. It automatically paints the high heat areas red. But it would be nice if there were a small,low cost device that all our firefighters could wear on their coats that would warn them that they were in danger of flashover. If something like this has already been mentioned somewhere, I apologize.

[HalliganHook25]

Do you really want to count on a machine or technological device to provide for your total safety when your life is at stake? I believe that you should have a device as a backup or secondary warning device, but realistic training and true fire experiance can never be subverted or replaced by technology.

[ThNozzleman]

We rely on technological devices on every fire we fight. Even a bucket is a technological device. I agree that training is important, and that you train with the equipment that you will be using during a real structure fire. However, as this thread has stated several times, the turn-out gear we use, including hoods of all types, have progressed a great deal in the last few years. I personally think that hoods should be worn during all structural firefighting, as well as flaps and collars. But, even experienced firefighters lose track of what is going on during fire attack and get killed by flashovers. Just look at the LODDs. They aren't ALL rookies. I would really like to have a small, low cost device that would transmit an audible warning when temperatures approach the danger level. Today's modern devices are very reliable and go through extensive testing before reaching the market. After that, the opinions of firefighters who have actually used the devices go a long way towards improving them even further. Should we rely simply on devices for protection? Of course not. But think of the devices we have now that have saved many lives, such as PASS, radios, and thermal imagers. A personal temperature warning device seems a logical addition to any trained firefighter's gear.

[HalliganHook25]

A majority of new In-Line PASS devices include both a high heat sensor as well as a rate of rise and total heat exposure warning.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with technology, but in order to properly use the technology you must have a strong knowledge and experiance base in order to apply the tools at your disposal correctly.

[whflhff]

OK, so I’m dancing in my gear because it’s too hot. This has only happened a few times and that was during training, in concrete burn buildings where the heat and smoke was generated by a controlled, supervised fire. Lots of safety officers and backup (we’re nothing if not by the book, and of course the state fire school is pure NFPA) so I felt pretty safe pushing it a bit (or is that just another sign of my inexperience?).

Firegod911 (thanks but usually I start to wear on training officers because I ask too many questions), bfd1071 and HalliganHook25, are you saying that by the time you feel the heat through your gear the situation is changing too rapidly to cope with? Is it now too late to bail like I did in the burn buildings?

See that’s the problem I have getting an answer I can work with. If feeling the heat through your gear is too late, then I can see why some FFs prefer not to wear a hood (in an attempt to keep the thread on track, sorry Jedimike007). They get an early jump on rapidly changing conditions.

Does the fact that I’m basically a truckie change the equation? Of course that may be why I have not felt the heat in a real fire because I’m either on the roof or searching rooms away from the seat of the fire.

Thanks for the great feedback!

[HalliganHook25]

In my opinion, if you are feeling the heat through your gear enough that you are thinking of bailing out, then most definately YES the situation is developing too rapidly to cope with. You might survive an encounter like this, but you will most likely be burned over many areas of your body, not even counting the injuries possible sustained while bailing out.

[TriTownship600]

I have read this thread twice now. I'm still trying to find out how you can tell when it's too hot without a temperature gauge or alarm.

I'm not staying until my helmet's shield melts as it's made from the same plastic as my SCBA face piece. Most working house fires I've been in you're lucky to see your hand in front of your face. I believe it's too late when it's soaked through the gear because I have seen blisters using that method.

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I really want to hear a some good ways to know.

Until then, level of pain = motivation to exit.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

If your face shield is melting, you better start putting some water on the fire or find another place to be.