Opinion on LZ landing?

[evfdjf]

I was wondering about peoples opinion on JR's and LZ landings?

[BVFD]

As long as they are thoroughly and properly trained, sounds like a good idea to me. Free's up personnel to undertake other tasks.

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Learn all the jobs, at some point you'll have to do them

[explorer36]

I agree. If your trained in LZ saftey you can go but under the close supervision of a Senior.

Joe
President
WHTFC Explorer Post

[Engine508]

I dont see any problem with juniors going to LZ landings. You dont really do much there anyway accept keep back crowds and setup the lz.Thats all we do at LZ landings. 1 Engine to set up LZ the Rest of the companies just stand-by Until the thing is over. So basically we all stand around by the truck for 20 minutes. Sometimes longer depending on the situation and what the Bird is being landed for. It is really neat to watch the helicopter land but hey thats only my opinion.

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Andrew
"You Go....We Go"
"Emt's Don't Die They Stabalize"

[Brian Book]

I say sure as long as each cadet is trained and can get the job done right.


Capt. Brian B
FFD Cadet

[sarge552]

I believe that a Explorer or Jr. should be allowed to watch/help under strict supervision from a Officer or Senior FF. The landing and take off of helicopters are a very dangerous and important time on the scene. Everyone must know exactly what is happening and be aware of your surroundings. Get the proper training and soon enough your Officers will let you do the "cool" stuff too!! Just a opinion from an Officer and guy who works with helicopters.

[Animal]

I personally don't have a problem with Jr's landing the bird, as long as they've gone through the training that MedFlight gives, and have done it a few times with a senior person supervising. I agree with Sarge that it is a very important task that takes skill, but just in my experience, you'd be surprised what, with the proper training, juniors can manage to NOT screw up http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif I've also seen senior people manage to screw things up that juniors can handle just fine. If you think they're capable, clear them to do it. If not, then don't, but encourage them to train and practice more, and try for it again.

[RFRDxplorer]

.....Bump.....

[RFRDxplorer]

Our explorer post has landed helicopters at our large annual training drill at a local fairgrounds. We are supervised by FF's and FD Officers.

[mdoddsjffhnfc]

4 years as a junior, never had to work and LZ. I was trained on how to work one, but never had to actually go and do it. This is good..means that people are bein safe. But yeah, i don't see a problem wit having Juniors doin LZ's, as long as they are trained on it.

[BD6413]

Why are Fire Departments doing LZs anyway ? There are Helicopter Landing Ports all over the country including office buildings, hospitals, and major manufacturing plants just to name a few that have aviation come in and out every day. Are we calling 2, 3, or 4 pieces of emergency equipment to stand-by at these facilities ? not usually and for what ?.

Being trained to assist setting up a makeshift landing zone say at an accident scene {on the roadway or that sort of thing} is a good idea but for that routine flight even when a helicopter lands in a parking lot or a corn field.....I think FD can sit that out

[nmfire]

Why are Fire Departments doing LZs anyway ? There are Helicopter Landing Ports all over the country including office buildings, hospitals, and major manufacturing plants just to name a few that have aviation come in and out every day. Are we calling 2, 3, or 4 pieces of emergency equipment to stand-by at these facilities ? not usually and for what ?

Hmmm. Probably because your county isn't the entire USA.

Is this topic suggesting that juniors and only juniors setup and control an LZ? This makes no sense. First of all, how you going to get there since you aren't driving the fire truck. Second, what are you going to do when you are actually needed because of a problem with the landing. Since federal law generally prohibits wearing airpacks and I'll be damned if a bunch of juniors are going to be attacking a giant wreck of burning aviation fuel. It would be no different than having a juniors and only juniors respond to a structure fire. It makes no sense.

Now, if the question is should juniors be allowed on the scene of a LZ with regular firefighters and apparatus, of course. Why not. It is again no different than having juniors on the scene of any other incident.

[trooperthorn]

Who are all these answering. First off, PA state child labor law forbids juniors from participating in LZ activities, this is for a reason. As an ex Air Force member, I have seen alot of young soldiers with near incidents and sadly those that went past near, and these were young men, now you want to put a 14 yo in the officers seat, I hope and pray that you are not that short. Jersey, I wish I had all the LZ's available that you have. With my nearest trauma center 30 minutes away in Philadelphia and the State protocol that says anything qualifing as a trauma more than 20 minutes is candidate for flight, makes for alot of air abuse(another topic for another day), we have been shut out from the local businesses LZ's due to Liability(which includes Jersey based MERCK). Hmmmm, liability from something so simple as a helicopter landing you ask? Thats what they say and now I have a 16 yo hyped up on adrenaline that some of the older guys still haven't quite mastered controlling running an LZ.Trust me, juniors have better things they can practice their skills at and steer clear of the LZ. Juniors are here to learn not replace the experience of a seasoned firefighter or officer. A good mentor may allow them to assist with the LZ and I hope this is what was meant, but I hope your not trying to put them incharge of one, and not near the chopper during its T/O and Landing. But now that you have my curiosity up, what is required of your LZ officer?

[BD6413]

Posted by nmfire: Hmmmmm probably because your county isn't the entire USA.....

No my county isn't the entire USA but I do work in a fairly large area that utilizes aviation on average of 8-10 times a day. We do not provide manpower and apparatus for the sole purpose of landing the thing..there are times that we'll suggest an area and advise the pilot especially at an accident scene maybe we'll mark it out {if it's dark} but that's it. 80-90% of the time the pilot is on his / her own.

So I ask again...Why are we doing LZs ? What's the point ? Is everyone trained in Avaiation Firefighting ? What exactly do we all think is the fire department role in aviation landing zones ? Training on the subject isn't a bad idea especially since a majority of us help load patients and should be aware of avaiation scene safety which I believe includes landing zones but the responsibility of the LZ shouldn't fall on the Fire Department.

[nmfire]

You don't get it do you? You keep asking what is the point. Well for everyone that isn't blessed enough to be in your almighty county, where do you suggest the helicopter land and who do you think is going to do it?

You don't need an ARFF unit to setup a safe landing zone. Thats a pathetic argument.

[ramseycl]

I've worked on a helitack crew, and believe it or not the pilots appreciate someone with a little experience out there to give them a heads up about things. They can land without anyone setting up a LZ, but it is much safer to have someone there to tell them winds, aerial hazards and anything else they might need to know. A helicopter landing at night without a marked and lighted LZ is very hazardous. Most ships are equipped with night vision, but not all. They can not distinguish between trees, water and other hazards at night and rely on people on the ground. We deal with two different providers, one with night vision and the other without. The pilot for the ship without relies on us te be their eyes on the ground.
I don't have a problem with juniors working a LZ, but they should be mature, have the proper training and be comfortable with the helicopter. If you ever get a chance the wildland classes S270 basic air ops and S271 helicopter crew member are great. Even if you are not going to be working with helicopters in a wildland setting, the class covers basic helicopter safety, crash rescue and helicopter capabilities.

[BD6413]

You don't get it do you? You keep asking what is the point. Well for everyone that isn't blessed enough to be in your almighty county, where do you suggest the helicopter land and who do you think is going to do it?

You don't need an ARFF unit to setup a safe landing zone. Thats a pathetic argument.


First of all you don't read do you ? Where do I say anything about needing a ARFF Unit ? Did I or din't I say We'll suggest an area for a landing Zone and even light the area if it's dark ? I believe I did....try and follow along.

Second of All you say....."Where do you suggest the helicopter land and who do you think is going to do it ?....

I would honestley say that has to fall on two things...first a safe area that can be observed from the air and the responsibility of landing the actual air-craft is that of the pilot. So I do get it -- If you've paid attention you would have seen that my "Almighty County" will assist in the endevors of a Landing Zone if we're already committed to the scene at hand.....We will not make a special response just to insure a landing zone. Simply put we don't do that here.

[nmfire]

WOOOOSH. Whatever. You total lack of intelligence and logic has made this conversation no longer worth the keystrokes. Now you contradict yourself in every other sentance and still haven't provided anything useful. Buh Bye.

[RFRDxplorer]

Around here, the LZ is usually set up at the incident.


http://www.rossfordfire.com/images/2004incidents/052204mva.jpg

http://www.rossfordfire.com/051904mva.html

http://www.rossfordfire.com/062903mva.html

http://www.rossfordfire.com/archives/oct04.html

[nmfire]

We couldn't set an LZ up at an incident if we wanted to. There are no roads wider than two lanes and without trees and overhead wires all along them. Our only options are farm and other empty fields and the school's athletic fields.

Accidents on the interstates (none of which we cover) are easy, you can land them right on the highway at the scene. But that only works if you have an interstate.

[RFRDxplorer]

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from. For example, when I lived in Md, for an MVA on residential streets, they landed the MSP Bird at the Jr. High Soccer Field, at another they landed in a parking lot. You work with what you have I guess.

[ramseycl]

We mostly land them in fields and parking lots.

[nmfire]

Yep. Thats the whole idea of it. Around here, the trauma centers are in the cities. The helicopters transport critical patients from the rural areas. By the very nature of rural areas, there isn't anywhere to land a helicopter unless you make a place for them. That means going to the school, clearing the soccer field, setting up the 75' x 75' square with cones (and lights if it's night), ensuring it stays clear, and adviding the helicopter of the location, coordinates, arial and ground hazzards, patient information, etc etc. It also means we have an engine with a line ready to go and FF's packed up standing by.