WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

[Kramer1075]

OK HERE'S THE SITUATION. YOU ARE DISPATCHED TO A STRUCTURE FIRE IN DISTRICT. IT IS JUST YOU AND THE PAID DRIVER. ON THE WAY THERE DISPATCH NOTIFIES YOU THAT THERE ARE CHILDREN STILL INSIDE. WHAT WOULD YOU DO, ASSUMING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE FF1 AND ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GO INTO BURNING BUILDINGS. WOULD YOU GO IN TO TRY TO SAVE THE CHILDREN EVEN THOUGH IT IS AGAINST YOUR DEPARTMENTS POLICY?

[Kramer1075]

THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO. I WOULD PUT ON A SCBA, GRAB AN AXE, TELL THE DRIVER THAT IM GONNA GO INSIDE. I DON'T WANNA BE STANDING AROUND A FIRE WHEN THERE ARE STILL KIDS INSIDE. I WOULD FEEL USELESS. EVEN THOUGH IT IS AGAINST MY DEPARTMENTS POLICES, I WOULD GO IN AND FACE THE CONCEQUENCES OF BREAKING THIS RULE. I WOULD JUST BE SOMETHING I WOULD HAVE TO DO. I WOULDN'T DO IT TO BE A GLORY-SEEKER, I WOULD DO IT BECAUSE THERES KIDS INSIDE.

[KNOBMAN]

Never have been or will be in a situation like you are describing. You have to do what you have to do.


Please put your school work before the fire station! Being top responder is not going to get you ahead in life!! K.M.

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UNION AND PROUD OF IT!


[This message has been edited by KNOBMAN (edited September 22, 1999).]

[e33]

IF I WAS YOUR CHIEF, I WOULD EXPELL YOU FROM THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. THAT IS CALLED FREELANCING AND TO DO THAT WHEN YOUR ARE UNTRAINED IS EVEN WORSE. MAKING YOURSELF VULNERABLE TO BECOMING A VICTIM ISNT HELPING THE SITUATION...NOT TO MENTION THE LIABILITY THAT YOU OPEN UP FOR YOUR DEPARTMENT. YOU HAVE ALOT TO LEARN YET...TRUST ME. THE REACTION YOU DESCRIBES IS TOTALLY ABSURD.

[This message has been edited by e33 (edited September 24, 1999).]

[NMFD33]

Kramer...do you really have such a need for self glory and desire that you are bothering to post a topic of this sort...and dont the drivers usually have some certs..they do in towns around me....you really must have poor response of membership...think first before you go on about saving the world...

------------------
Chris Kerrigan
XMetalSxeX@aol.com
Junior Fire Fighter
Co.2 Engine-33 Tower-31
New Milford VFD,NJ


Can we return to the golden age, to the goals we set, and the promises we made. Do you recall when we were friends? Just you and me to the very end-Stretch Arm Strong

[BURNSEMS]

I would Kick you in the **##!!, first and foremost a Dead hero is worthless, I can tell you like most F/F can that these reports are at times False and can Lead to F/F being Injured for no Reason,, Learn before you Burn, I have been at several Fires where it was reported people Trapped and we had to wait and use our heads, Fire Conditions, conditions of the Building and water supply and Personel are just a few conciderations that must be weighed in Risk vs Benifit, stick to the Little stuff and there will be no big stuff as you progress in the Fire Service.

------------------
Here today for a Safer Tomorrow

[APG1]

Are you -that- stupid to actually pull a stunt like that? Around here, that sort of action will not only get your ass landed in trouble with the director/chief, but in addition, will get you in trouble leagally. If I was that 'senior' fighter fighter with ya, I'd club you with the backside of an entry tool before I'd let you throw a bucket of water on that fire.

[Dalmation90]

Well, let's see, where to begin:
Mistake #1: You believed a dispatcher http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif
Better take a minute before you grab that axe and figure out who said there where kids in there and why they think that. If the answer is "Well, the kids ALWAYS come home from school at 3:30" it's time to remember the first three letters of assume. If you do have someone with good, first hand info that there is indeed someone trapped, better start asking how big/old these kids are, how many, where were they last seen, what's the lay out of the house, where's the bedrooms, bathrooms, stairs located? Have you gone around back to see if the kids went out the back way and are standing next to the tree that was their designated meeting place during an EDITH?

If you do have people trapped, you still can gather a lot of size up info like Who is trapped, Where they probably are, and What the house floor plan looks like to pass on to arriving Firefighters.

Matt

[LHFDstemmy]

I wont be so negative like everyone else here. You just wanted information and yet all your getting is your butt handed to you like they are your chief. Look at it this way. You should never go into a burning structure alone. Never! Especially if there is no backup coming. Just curious, what did you do about your situation and what ended up happening? Please E-mail me.

[Kramer1075]

Whats your e-mail address?

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[Animal]

Sure, run into the structure alone and untrained.. Hey, what's another victim for the rest of us to drag out? If one of your officers happens to see your post, I hope they would have the good sense to sit you down and straighten your ass out. I see you as yet another product of watching too much TV.

[Bob Snyder]

And after you go in untrained, there will be one more child inside to be rescued. Remember: an untrained fire company member is just a civilian in turnout gear (but usually twice as dangerous).

I also question the situation where your driver leaves with inadequate crew...I'm an officer and an engineer and I live three houses down the street from the station. I drive the first-out piece an awful lot (more than I want to, actually), and I make it a point to get appropriate crew before I leave, when at all possible. Screaming out the door really fast without manpower to do the job just sets up a 15-ton (or so) roadblock at the scene...

[BURNSEMS]

KRAMER 1075, Maybe my Last post to you was a little harsh, but I have been in the Fire Service for anbout 25+yrs if you count the times I spent at the fire service as a Mascot and Jr Firefighter, I have seen your post on WHY DID YOU BECOME A FIREFIGHTER, and your statement about you are prepared for anything at age 15 is a little scary to me.. Think before you act, if there are firefighters Dieing every day in the U.S who are experianced seasoned veterans with years of Experiance and thousands of alarms under there belt you had better think again, I personaly dont want you or any other Jr Firefighter to be Listed a LODD.

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Here today for a Safer Tomorrow

[LHFDstemmy]

my email is in my profile Kramer1075. email me and let me know what happened



------------------
LHFDstemmy
LHFD Sta. 3 E-202

[APG1]

Kramer, you are 15 years old. There is no way in heck you are capeable of going into a structure, and pulling children out. Lets think about this. Assume the average age of those children is 10. So, they weigh about 70 pounds, just for example. Your going into a building that's collapsing around you, with all this gear on, at the age of 15, and you expect just to pull these kids out, who are quite possibly uncon? http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif Uhh... No. I'd be interested in hearing what happened too.

[LHFDstemmy]

Just so everyone knows. This never really happened. Kramer told me that he was just giving a situation and wanted to see what other jrs would do. Hopefully now he realizes that it would be a stupid decision to play hero.

------------------
LHFDstemmy
LHFD Sta. 3 E-202


[This message has been edited by LHFDstemmy (edited October 01, 1999).]

[Kramer1075]

I've realized what an ass I made of my self saying that I would go play hero. It was a spur of the moment thing when I made this topic, I didn't even think about what I was typing. I hope everybody that replyed to this topic understands that It was a mistake to reply to my own topic.

[Capez]

First things first;
1) How far out is the second due?
2) Is the driver SCBA certified?
If the answer is 10 Min or less and yes then both of you pack up and conduct a primary seach. It's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

Secondly Think of the lawsuit you just saved the town or county that you lived in by not acting.

[e33]

How can someone sue you if your personnel are not trained to perform in that situation...THEY CAN'T win..thats for sure. The lawsuit is more likely to be from the parents of the Jr. who was killed because the senior and responsible member allowed such an action. There is no obligation for an untrained person to act...same thing if someone was trapped in a confined space and you werent trained...they cannot sue you because you recognized that it was beyond your scope of operations and you couldnt safely handle the situation..this whole idea is a bunch of silliness.

[Bob Snyder]

Capez...you're an OFFICER, and you want to send an UNTRAINED 15 YEAR OLD in to do a primary search JUST TO AVOID A LAWSUIT?????

At minimum, that's wreckless...at maximum, it could turn out to be manslaughter...let's get back to the original problem here:

Why is that rig leaving with just a driver and a junior? I said this before and I'll say it again: A rig with improper crew is just a 15 (or more) ton obstruction at the scene. Period.

That town's best interests are better served by adequate staffing and training. If the company in question can't provide the necessary crew 24x7x52, the that company needs to admit it to themselves and do something about it. How about adding additional companies to initial dispatch to get the crew they need? If that can't be done (too isolated, or whatever), then how about adding a paid crewperson to that paid driver? The correct solution is to avoid the problem, not come up with some n-th best answer when it's too late. If that takes an innovative answer, then think one up. Killing your juniors probably isn't the innovative answer you want.


[This message has been edited by Bob Snyder (edited October 04, 1999).]

[resqb]

If you are 15 and on the seat for a run it better be to get coffee and doughnuts http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif. At 15 and in an explorer program just pull the line to the door and let the driver take it in if it is certain there is someone in there, you can stay at the panel and watch the level gauge. And running two is a necessary evil in some depts.(even my paid dept.), but as Burnsems stated , we're losing experienced people very frequently. Remember stick to basics, don't leave the wall, crawl if you can't see the floor while walking and never freelance.

[ProfVol]

agree with resqb. If there is any chance that people are inside and the conditions will allow it, the paid driver should make entry and do a quick search or if possible a knock down of the fire. Many more experience people than myself have stated that stopping the fire have saved more lives than any other action. May not be per the book, but the book doesnt cover everything. This is where training and experience (not ego) comes into play. Some reply stated dont enter until more support has arrived, I am hoping that was in regards to the Kramer1075 not the driver. If the benefits warrants the risk, do it. Remember you have to face the person in the mirror the next day. Not a hero, just a fire fighter.

[Bob Snyder]

I'm not advocating standing around and doing nothing...IF I were the trained firefighter who is driving the rig and I'm there alone, I'd make a solo attack/search (whatever I judge to be appropriate). I'd still leave the untrained 15-year-old outside to inform the incoming units of my exact situation.

What I'm advocating is planning ahead with so that this situation can be avoided if at all humanly possible.



------------------
Lt. Bob Snyder
FFC#2, Mohnton, PA

[e33]

I'm not sure if I would do the solo search thing..setting up a blitz attack or setting ground ladders for the next due units would certainly be a posotive start...the kid can help do this stuff as well..as it is outside work and doesnt involve too high a degree of danger...I would be nervous going in alone w/o someone to assist me or in very worst case..someone to get trapped with (and perhaps be the deciding factor if I was able to be freed with assistance)...and at least not die alone....sounds very cold..but I think it sounds kinda understandable. That element always exists in our job. Besides, and take this for what its worth...its only a theoretical ideal...its not my emergency if someone is in there..my duty is to get them out as safely and quickly a possible, and that (to me) means with a partner (unless in the extreme case where conditions havent gotten that bad and the voctims are easily reached...its really situationally dependent..isnt it?). Another consideration is to think how much faster you can knock out a primary search with 2 or 3 guys. Just some food for thought.

[OCFireEXP]

guys, im an explorer, and can tell you what this all is about. this kramer dude is 15, he's probably just finished watching backdraft, is playing with his turnouts, has an adrenaline induced hard on, and wants to be a kurt russel hero. cut him some slack, if that ever did happen, rest assured that his tail would be in the back seat of the engine like its supposed to be. no one is that stupid to pull a stunt like that (i hope), and if he is, a few 3rd degree burns will teach him! http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif just kidding.

ive been inside a live fire both with explorers, and with my dad on real calls with his volly dept, and frankly, its damn scary for a teenager. to do it alone, with no one outside would be too much for me.

and kramer: im 2 years older than you, and have been fighting fire with my dad since i was 11 (thats 6+ years incase your not a math major). dont even think about doing a dumb ass probie stunt like that. i wouldent, and you shouldent either.

go throw a ladder, stretch a hoseline (and leave it there), or get on the radio and call for back up. you dont have to be useless, but dont forget your status in the department.
also pray that your officer dosent see this post, or your ass is probably grass!

stay safe,

Joe Nassetta
Orange County Fire Authority
Post 9643

[Explorer_Chief]

What do your posts do for "financial support"? our county has a 1,000,000 budget for firefighting and is using it all we need ideas to get minitor 3's and turnouts

any one with ideas e-mail me or post a message here
thanks
John

[Cort LaBlank]

Well I am 17 and have been a junior for 5 years. I have been in the situation where me and the paid driver are the only ones to go on calls but they were just med calls and grass fires so there wasnt a problem. If we ever did have a situation like that we would deffinatly call for another dept.

[Brian Johnson]

Kramer:

Wow such a blatant disregard for departmental policies!!!! These policies were written by people who I assume have decades of experience. You're telling me a 15 year old explorer knows better?

Something else to think about. OSHA has a policy that is summed up as two in and two out. Let's look at your situation. You decide to go in, only to find that the kids had gotten out and were around back at there EDITH tree. Something happens and you get hurt. The newspaper picks up the story of a heroic explorer scout hurt while trying to rescue kids. Your local OSHA office finds the article and decides to investigate. Possible results: Thousands of dollars of fines, the paid driver losing his job and your chief facing losing his job.

The moral we don't always agree with the policies but we must follow them or work on changing them.

Your heart is in the right place, saving people is what we get paid to do. Think first and do it according to procedures.

The question was a good one. Try asking it again and seeing what answers you get back. Become the teacher, you should have plenty of insight as to the right answer now.

Good luck.

------------------
Brian Johnson
Asst. Chief, Training
MCAS Iwakuni, Japan

[BFD99]

It is clear that this kid was just throwing out a hypothetical senerio. In our dept. we have a policy that no piece of apparatus may leave the house with out 3 FF's on board, and cadets dont even get counted in the responce count! In our dept. this senerio could never occure.

[Rick Bond]

Slow down guys.

I realize that their may be a problem here but where is the problem? As a Firefighter what would you do, thats the question.

We the elders in our respective departments must take the enthusiasm of this young man and guide it in the direction that we want him to go. His question may have come from his departments operations, training or lack of training. The real question for me is why this young man has the idea that he can ride the first out equipment as an untrained firefighter let alone an explorer.

Remember we are only looking in from the outside of the question, with no background on this young mans department operations.

As for Jr. Firefighter or Explorer Programs.
Lets take a step back and look at our overall volunteer membership. In todays hussle & bussle world we need these young people to help us on the fire grounds & to start learning the basics so that when it's time we can step down & allow them to take over. I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't keep doing this forever.

------------------
THESE THING WE DO SO OTHERS MAY LIVE!

[Kyle]

Your not a firefighter.

[This message has been edited by Kyle (edited December 29, 1999).]

[Kyle]

Anybody with suggestions on what the age limit should be to join a fire dept. post it or E-mail me please!

[This message has been edited by Kyle (edited December 29, 1999).]

[Station7Cadet]

What a stupid question, we as firefighters tell people do NOT go in becasue they are not trained! So if you are not trained then why in the world would you go in? That is so stupid!

[rnd15fd]

Well, it depends if the commanding officer said go in with me. Hopefully he wouldnt. And hopefully if he did bring me in, he would keep me far away enough that there would be less danger. But, see, maybe the kids are just scared and in a room that is not engulfed in flames. Then you could just bring them out. But you could at least go in and see if you can locate them. Just keep your self out of great danger. I am not positive on what i would do. I will see if the time comes.

[WFDjr1]

This doesn't have much to do with this thread, but it IS about sending teenagers into working fires. A nearby station (name will not be given to protect the STUPID) lets teens enter working fires as soon as they finish FF1. They have no jr. program or anything.

[SFD rescue]

If help was not on the way or it wasnt close you better believe that I would be the first one in there to try to get the little tike out

9/11 never forgotten

[rfcmitch]

Are you dumb? Stupid? What? Because I don't know about you but I know one thing. I would rather have 5 civilians in a building, than a 2 man team to save them. Because people are not replaceable, and especially neither are firemen. If there is a 85% chance of being able to save their lives, your not going in in my opinion. I would want a very sturdy structure at the time, that is not fully involved. What would I do? I would probably stand there, and fight from the exterior. And I would fight with that driver to make sure he didn't go in either. You don't get anywhere in this job taking risks, or having guts. You need common sense. And the senseful thing to do would be keep your butt out of there. If anybody were to go in I would lose complete respect for them, and I would push for their termination. You can't save everybody, and this would probably be one of those situations, sad to say but, those lives would be lost. Pulling stupid stunts never got anybody anywhere and this would be a stupid stunt. Sorry.

Also, We have had many people trapped in fires... but I have never seen on?

[Co11FireGal]

Since you're an unregistered guest here on Firehouse, I have a couple of suggestions for you.

Before you register:

1). Learn how to type with the Caps Lock OFF!
DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE, BUT I REALLY DON'T LIKE BEING YELLED AT! AS A FREQUENT OCCUPANT OF CHAT ROOMS, ALL CAPS MESSAGES HAVE BECOME VERY ANNOYING!
Unless emphasizing a word, only use upper case letters to begin sentences, in titles, and for proper nouns, etc. Mistakes are understandable and inevitable. All caps is just dopey. We all understand that you want to emphasize your heroism. Somebody, get the boy a Medal of Valor!

2). Learn not to post things such as this that make all Juniors, all of US, look like glory-seeking, dumba$$, firefighter wannabes. I don't know why you posted a thing like you did, or what you're trying to accomplish with it, but the "Seasoned Firefighters," with the help of the "Cadet Brigade," will put you, or anyone else, in your place EVERY time.

3). Use these forums to broaden your knowledge of the fire service, not to try and get a pat on the pack for dangerous and unwise decisions.

4). Never start anything you can't finish. *Especially with the seasoned guys because, man, they can be vicious! * ;) :D

It is my hope, for your sake as well as ours, that you seriously consider these SUGGESTIONS. I'm not trying to be rude or mouthy. I am merely giving you some advice for later reference. I look forward to your posts in the future.

[rfcmitch]

Na na na na na, hey hey hey hey, goodbye. Thank you for speaking up, I would never do it, but branching off of that... also, I would ask that before people post things, that they read some active forums and make sure that it has not already been covered. Thats one thing I hate is answering the same question 5000 times.

[litlrudy20]

I dont see a real reason for this question, unless this has actually happened. However if i were in that situation i wouldnt think twice and im sure non of the senior members in my department (or drivers)would stop me from putting on a pack and getting the kid out. Im sure all the firefighters and officers in the department would be right beside me.

[captstanm1]

Explorer_Chief...what does your post have to do with this subject???

Cadetstation7....finally a great response from you...good job!

I am with those of you that said...NO...untrained 15 year old = another fatality.

Look at Lairdsville NY and what happened in training burns to an untrained person.

Myself.....since I have the training...would attempt a rescue. Upon the receipt of the message that someone was trapped...call a second alarm and include additional EMS units. Upon arrival give a size up and pass command. While I was doing my walk-around I would have the driver pull the line and then set the pump. Next pumper in gives us their water and established a water supply. Since my engine has 1000 gallons on it, I would bypass the hydrant on the way in to allow for time savings to better effect the rescue. The driver should be prepared to assist me as I bring em out. With 1000 gallons and other units coming....I may even have the driver gear up and pack out and assist me...depending on the distance of the other units.

[MikeF25]

First why have a paid driver and not a paid crew?

Second be a cold day in hell before a 15 yr old
would be close enough to feel heat on a structure.

Also what about mutual aide?

Have you forgotten one of the primary rules
"If it is not safe for you don't go"

To the person who said maybe the kids are in a room
not engulfed in fire. Have you been in a fire, have
you seen how quickly a room that is not involved can
involved.

Sorry but it is their emergency not mine.

[fireron]

From the way some of these little boys talk on these forums they have seen it all and yet they havent seen a darn thing. Guys, your time is coming. There will always be something burning or someone in trouble. And guess what, they are going to rely on you for your expertiese and assistance. Treat those situations with respect. Remember you are dealing with peoples property and more so their family. The public relies on you to know what the hell you are doing.

Be it a professional or volunteer just do the right thing for the public and most importantly do it safe and go home alive.

[fireron]

CHILD LABOR LAWS

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Nice signature Mitch. This thread started 2 1/2 years ago..Did I forget to say NICE SIGNATURE MITCH ? Im sure the Randolph N.Y. Fire Department is proud to have a member representing THEM saying **** IAFF.You are pretty ballsy for being a junior firefighter.

[rfcmitch]

Thank you. Me and IAFF members have problems, we disagree in every aspect there is. And I am not here representing the RFC. I can say my opinion freely, whenever, whereever I want. And I would appreciate if you guys realize, that being paid is not professional. They are CAREER, we are VOLUNTEER... we are all PROFESSIONAL.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Gee, I would never guess that older IAFF guys would have a problem with a kid that is on a department that runs 104 calls a YEAR. You are right when you say we all do the same job. How would you like it if I said **** off Mitch from Randolph New York? Sonny it has nothing to do with paid vs. volunteer in this case. It is about a JUNIOR FIREFIGHTER with a couple of years in the fire service already digging a big hole for himself.

[captstanm1]

In response to someone's question, "why a career driver and not a career crew?"

Well..in my old volunteer department, we had a paid driver and the volunteers filled out the crew. This was from 730 -430 mon-fri.

But this is not a career versus volunteer issue...although I will agree that you do not have to be paid to be professional.

However, due to the childish immature responses, I am reqpectfully asking that the webteam close this thread since mitch apparently wants to make it an IAFF vs volunteer issue. He owes the forums an appology.

[fireron]

Capt,

Good call. It seems like this forum went south. If it wasn't for that stupid question this would of never happened.



Web team

Please make a little explorer forum especially for them only. Allow them access and them only so we can aleviate the stupid questions that are ask.

[FireExplorer13]

Hey Kramer1075, were did you learn to grab an axe from, Backdraft? Maybe you should just help the driver get a line steched out and set up so when some firefighters get there they don't have to waste time. That would probably be more helpful to them than you creating another victim for them and losing their axe in the fire.

[ricky_rfd_ny]

Ok, I think you should be concentrating on your job when you get to the scene instead of trying to act heroic. Rescuing is for the professionals, and if human life is at stake I'm sure somone will be along that is trained to handle that situation. Step off your mountain and face reality!

[webteam]

There is no place on Firehouse.com for a PAID vs. VOLUNTEER discussion. These types of forums ALWAYS turn into exactly what this one has. Please refrain from posting like this in the future. This will be the only warning for those involved. Further posts attacking each other and such will result in permanent removal.

Thank you
WebTeam