Does your ladder truck respond to residential fires?

[BC White]

Currently my department only runs the ladder on multi-family and buildings. Staffing has a lot to do with this, but in January we will have enough people to staff the truck on a regular basis (it is housed with an Engine and ALS Heavy Rescue).
I am looking to make a presentation to operations to show the need for this apparatus to be part of the 1st. alarm assignment for house fires.
There are some that think that this truck (102' Tower) is too big. I myself know the importance of this apparatus being on the fireground, but I would like some input from others around the country.
What are some problems, and how can they be countered? Why the truck on house fires when a Rescue is also responding?
Do you run a truck on all reports, no matter what the building type?
In large city departments, the thought of not having a truck is crazy, and I understand.
Although my 3 soon to be 4 & 5 station department is not a large city, I feel the truck is need, but would like some help to put together my presenstaion.
Some insight on my department:
-Current responce to a house fire:
2 or 3 Engine's (depending on location of border departments), a Rescue, and Ambulance, a Tanker (if no hydrants), and a Battalion Chief.
-2 of our 3 Engine's are also ALS.
-Minimum staffing is considered 3 on fire apparatus (let's not go there!).
-Combo department with 45, (soon to be 57 in January) career firefighters that work 24/48.
-Volunteer members are paid on call, that mainly do station duty.
Thanks in advance for your input!
BC White

[Animal]

Our dept. is an all-volunteer, 6-station department that has 1 ladder (105' Rear Mount) located centrally in the county. We run the ladder to all structure fires and fire alarms. Currently, our first alarm assignment for a structure fire/alarm is 3 fire and 1 rescue companies, plus the ladder if its company is not included in the first alarm.

[Truckie from Missouri]

Sewnd the Ladder truck on all structure fires?

YES!

As it's name implies, there's a bunch of ladders that can be used all over the place (staffing provided--won't go there either) not to mention the one on top of the truck! I don't know the demographics of your area, but in ours, there's a bunch of places that the aerial can barely reach because of the setback off the road.

Another thing, most ladder trucks I've seen are rolling tool boxes. Having that many extra tools around can be quite handy.

One more point to ponder, if the fire is well advanced (ie: thru the roof) the arial stream packs quite a punch for a master stream operation!

These are my humble thoughts.

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Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

Stay safe.
Ken

[Dalmation90]

It's also probably easier to position the Tower if you know it's coming and always leave room for it...I suspect you'll find if you only call for it when needed, you'll find you don't often have a place for it without a lot of jockeying around!

And if you're single family residences are like the one's out here, and you need to vent the roof, I'd much rather be tied off to the aerial than work off of ground ladders venting truss roofs!

Operationally, we're a fairly rural area...population of 85,000 in 12 towns and about 360 sq. miles served by one dispatch center and 35 fire departments, all volunteer...and we have 5 Towers, 6 Ladders, and a Squrt in the region. Needless to say we're a big believer in aerials even in rural operations.

Matt http://pages.cthome.net/mortlake

[This message has been edited by Dalmation90 (edited August 10, 1999).]

[resqcapt]

We don't have a dedicated truck company but we do run three quints, (2-75', 1=100'). Our response to any structure fire is 3 engines, 1- quint, 1-rescue, 1-medic unit. Since the quints count as engines we routinely have 3 aerials on all fires.

We find them very beneficial in reaching the roof with our understaffed companies. It is much easier to raise an aerial to the roof for ventilation than have 2 or 3 guys lugging ground ladders. Just raise the aerial, grab the irons and a saw. Pike poles and roof ladders are stored on the boom. Works very well for us, wouldn't know what to do without them now!

[STA2]

If I can throw in my 2 cents and ask a couple of questions? First, Do you want the truck in place of another company? You can argue that just by the freeing up of an engine which I assume makes most of your runs, Fire and EMS. Free up the companies that are gonna make 90% of your runs. You ask about the Rescue on the assignment also. I assume that your rescue is just that. In another words it responds to fires but also rescue and ALS (You said it) medical runs. Why have your rescue tools sitting on the rig parked down the street with the crew working on the fire floor and have an MVA with entrappment come in. Use the truck co. for that. Build in flexibility. Second question. Are you trying to get it added in addition to your current assignment? That is the angle I would work overall. Throw ISO right at them. You lose credit if you don't have an ariel making every structure fire. No matter if its a one story or a high-rise. 2-in-2-out. That concept is a good one but also a man power depleting one. Use it to justify the truck on the run. Another crew for an ssignment. The R.I.T. concept is a very valuable argument. Make the truck co. your RIT. You have a toolbox with a crew. Use them and there equipment to help out your other crews should they get in trouble. Train all your people, but train the truck co. first to guarantee them on the assignment. You can have the Rescue and the Truck on the assignment. Truck Co.'s (Where I come from) carry most of teh salvage covers and the like. How about lights. Do your engines have generators and enough floodlighting? How about air monitoring equipment. Third question. Why man it if they don't want to use it? If your gonna man the rig make the rig earn its place. Not the men on it, but the company. Use the above reasons to help but also keep up the numbers for the truck so when cost cutting comes around (And it will), you have something to show the bean counters. SHOW them that it runs. In my dept. the Truck Co.'s make EMS calls, Jaws calls, CO detectors, Water emergencies, High water rescues, Assist the PD calls, and everything else in between. Make the company help justify itself for the times that the Big Wigs upstairs want it to run. I have more to say but not here. E-Mail me and I'll help you out if you like. Be safe.

Larry

[MacGyver]

Our platform is 2nd out on all city structure
fires and alarms.

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[Bob Snyder]

Just to throw in another vote...yea, run the truck on residential structure calls. I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been covered by someone, but I support pretty much all of it.

FYI...our initial dispatch on structure calls (2 stations) is 1-quint, 1-ladder, 2-engines, 1-tanker/pumper, 1-squad. Special assignments (industrial, churches, etc.) add 2-engines, 1-tanker, 1-rescue (1 station) to that initial dispatch assignment.


[This message has been edited by Bob Snyder (edited August 13, 1999).]

[Halligan84]

We run a minimum of 2 stations on any structure. Most runs have 2 ladders assigned and 1 of them is running first out of their station on the assignment.

[morriss]

We too are a small volunteer rural company. We have a 100' rear mount that runs on all structure responses in the area. Our thoughts are that the ladder on top is one additional tool on the unit and that "truck" company functions must be performed on all structure fires. We run it second behind our pumper. Normal response from our station in hydrant areas: 2 pumpers, truck, salvage(air lights), rescue. Non-hydrant areas: pumper, truck, tanker, salvage, rescue.

Mutial aid consists of two additional departments. Normal response is pumper, tanker and support vehicles.

[PTFD21]

First due for hydranted areas currently:

Tower 2 (85 ft.) and Engine 11

Rural areas:

Engine 2 and Tanker 1

We have a 105 ft. Pierce ladder on order. I am not sure how this will fit into the equation. If we end up running all three stations (our third is due to be complete in the first half of 2000) it will be one of the first due trucks.


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ED C.
"Doin' it for lives and property !"
http://members.aol.com/PT10FD/info.htm

[FRED]

Should you run the truck on residentials...Absolutely!
This is for many reasons.
#1- This will place more eqipment at your disposal (i.e. BIG LADDER)not to mention all the other tools carried on the Ladder Co. #2- You never know what you are heading to at 0300, it could be a single story 20x30 single family structure. Or the reporting party might have been mistaken and really seen a 3 story 50x60 Brick Appartment Building on fire...two completely diferent alarms.
#3- I worked at one time for a dept. that didn't send the Ladder on residental alarms. But we all new that there were 3 and 3 1/2 story houses that held 20+ college students that we would need the ladder for. Just because it is a house doesn't mean a Ladder Co. wouldn't help.
#4- Spread out the equipment and tasks. Whlie enroute to a fire the confusion is limted when assignments such as ventilation and Search are already assigned to the Truck Co. It enables the Engine men the oportunity to focus on the Engines Job.
#5- A good way to sell the idea to the ones with the pocketbook is to give the Truckies some specalized training. And send them on some calls that the Engines don't need to go on.(i.e. CO, Non-emergency medical calls)This would boost their call load and let the engines have a break.

[Daveg27]

Our normal run on structure fires would be 3 engines, 1 quint, 1 salvage, 1 ambulance, and 2 too many chiefs(j/k!). The quint rarley flies the ladder on single dwelling homes though. It's there mostly for tools, ground ladders, power and light. We have a separate salvage truck also so the rescue stays in quarters. Personally, I'd like to see the salvage equip consolidated onto the truck company and replace the salvage with a smaller quint to run out of house 2 or house 3(when finished. Then again, my helmet is black so what do I know!

[Lt.Houck]

Our department is all volunteer. On all structure boxes we run engine, truck, engine. The first due engine secures their own water supply unless there is a report of occupants trapped. During day hours when most of the guys are working, we have a mutual aid company run their truck in first and we run engine, engine, truck on our boxes. Our truck company run to most of the surrounding towns for mutual aid on the initial box for residential fires. I personnally think that the truck company should roll on every structure box, it is as others have said a rolling tool box. Nothing says either that the truckies can't put down their tools and help hump hose either, although they are quite reluctant to the concept. We have had great success running our truck on residentials. I hope this helps. Keep it safe.

[Drew Smith]

We send an engine, a rescue pumper (ALS with full truck gear and extrication gear with 1500 GPM pump) and a 100' platform QUint on all fires, houses-apartments-commercial-industrial. We also send a tanker into non-hydranted areas and get an auto-aid engine into about half of our district.

The first unit always leads out and attacks the fire. This could be an engine or the rescue pumper, depending on the district. The second-in station performs truck work. This could be an engine using the gear on the rescue pumper or the truck. WHen the tanker rolls the truck is staffed by callbac personnel who are toned out on every reported fire.

Our goal is as follows:
1 company for attack
1 company for water supply
1 company for back up
1 company for inside truck work
1 company for outside truck work

We usually get this as follows:
Attack: Engine or rescue.
Water supply: Engine or tanker.
Back up:Engine, Rescue or Auto Aide Engine.
Inside truck: Rescue or Engine.
Outside truck: Truck or rescue.

In any case, the truck rolls and usually is put to work. We have also made it policy to raise our aerial to the roof on any fire in a structure of more than 1&1/2 stories. We would use it anytime we could work the roof from it an not put a crew onto a roof.

[721]

Ladder truck on all structures, yes they are a valuable asset and can provide support and rescue for the truck companies.

Now I often hear the city send one of their ladder trucks on car fires, brush fires, for the simple reason it carries 4 firefighters.

How about responding ladders for MVA's on interstate type highways, as even better protection from oncomming traffic. The rubber neckers have always been around, but now we also face the idiot who is so engrossed in the conversation on his cell phone that he blows through the accident scene at 70 MPH, because he never noticed all the emergency vehicles? Thats when I want a big ladder truck to shield my firefighters.

[Tillerman]

I would also like to add to this if I may. I think the ladder company is an important tool to have on the fire ground. It allows the engine company to worry about one task and that is knocking down the fire. They should not have to concern themselves with the truck company duties as defined in your General Orders.

In single family dwelling fires the truck as big as it may be does not have to have position itself close enough to ladder the building. I dont know too many houses that are taller than the old 35 footer. However it still must be close enough to get ground ladders to the structure quickly.

In single family dwelling fires the ladder company needs to secure the utilities, ventilate(preferably horizontily), and preform a search(either primary or secondary based on your SOP's). With the addition of a truck company crews can preform a tasks in sequence and with your staffing levels the additional help is needed!!

[robert h. fields]

If you haveit available it is a very good idea to have a least 1 ladder apparatus respond to ALL structure calls. Our department runs everythig dangerously under staffed. We run 2 man engines, and at our main station depaending if it is a residental or commercial they take the engine or the ladder. Our leaders wouldnt dare take the ladder to a 2 1/2 story ballon frame w/occupants trapped, but would severly disipline anyone who would not take it to an automatic alarm @ 0300 at a typcal McDonalds resturant type building! We lost one of our own a few years ago. If we had a ladder truck already on the scene, he probably would have been able to watch his 2 kids grow up! Lets not forget where we came from. Those old timmers of long ago built and brought those things to building fires for a reason! If you have them use them! But every needs to be trained to know how to use them properly.

[SOML]

have the same problem, as directed by the commisioners, the ladder truck is only for commercial fires NOT residential.
now for the funny part the truck is four years old . last commercial job 12-15 years ago.(mostly residential community).
the newer homes in town are only getting larger and the only ladders over 24' are located where? on the ladder truck back in the barn. sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

[Butchpfd]

Without a doubt! Run the Truck.

Reasons, Ladders, Tools, manpower traned and experienced in using them. My department run an Engine, Squirt(55' ladder), and a Qunt(75'). Quint normally operates as a Truck Co. with a crew of 4-5. On 1st alarm truck will be in the right position to perform its functions. If worst comes to worst the ladder pipe is there and available.


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Stay Safe Butch

[FF McDonald]

While I do agree with a number of the replies that have been posted to date--- Well, I must also put my two cents in.

Does the ladder truck have a pump? Not all aerial apparatus have them. If you roll up and all the occupants are out of the building, what good will that shiny new ladder truck do you.

Please note: I have nothing against truckies. I know the job you guys do, I appreciate it, and we must all work together on the fireground.

I guess what I am really trying to say is, yes--- run the ladder to all calls. But you are better off if your ladder is equipped with a pump, this way it can hold it's own until the Engine Co. arrives. I am very much against the use of quints. A Ladder Co is a ladder company and a Engine Co. is an engine company--- cut and dry. If a ladder is in position to use its aerial device- then it is not necessarily in the proper position to be used as an Engine.
I know some of you are screaming heresy right now. A quint may save you at budget time-- but it may not save you on the fireground-- where would you rather it save your behind; I prefer the fireground.

Bottom line---> Run both the engine and the ladder to the call. There will be enough work for the both of you.

Before some fellow volunteers reply back about manpower for two apparatus--- If you have the Engine manned, have a ladder sent to you mutual aid, and vice versa.

Hope this helps, and I don't get too much hate mail.....

[Romania]

I can't give you a yes of no without some claification. Some of my opinions may not be popular, but they work for our area very well.

First, the system I work in (I say system because it envolves about 20 fire deprtaments operating off the same alarm room and SOPs) runs two type of truck/ladder/rescue comapnies.

These companies are called ladders and ladder tenders and are typically co-manned. This means that a typical ladder companay will also be assigned a ladder tender. The ladder tender carries all the same equipment as the ladder minus the aerial ladder. These units are smaller and a basically the same as the rescue companies from other parts of the country.

Ladder Tenders are sent on all the calls that the aerial isn't needed. I.e. medical calls, calls for extrication, servcie calls, SFD fires, etc. However, at the ladder captain's descrition they may take the ladder on any call. Of course if a ladder that doesn't have an LT assigned to it, or a ladder crew that is out in the aerial it will be sent over an LT if it is the closet unit. THe oppiste is also true.

THe criteria you need to consider is:

1. Does the rescue carry all the tools (inc. ground ladders) to do the classic truck company fuctions?

2. Do you need the manpower? If you only run 3 person crews, the ladder will give you 3 more people on scene. We have minimium 4 person crews and many ladder/LTs are 5 person.

3. Is you rescue truck assigned other duties at these fires. If so a truck (a.k.a ladder) sould be sent to focus on the truck company fuctions.

4. Rapid Intervention, what company performs rapid intervention. If you run both a ladder and the rescue to fires you have two sets of forcible rescue tools for rapid intervention, God forbid, they are needed. We add an additional engine and ladder (or LT) to all working 1st alarm fires, this is in addtion to the work crews.

5. I would consider seperating the heavy rescue and the ladder to two differnt stations. This would expand coverage for rescue and truck company operations (that is if your ladder carries rescue tools and your rescue carries truck tools). If you do this, you could setup the initial dispatch to include the closest unit and the next due would be sent on the activation of a greater alarm or as needed by special call. If both are need on the initial dispatch, one is just a little farther away.

FYI, our initial alarm system is as follows.

2-1: (2) engines, (1) ladder/LT, (1) BC
2-1RIC (working fire): Add (1) engine for ric company, (1) utility/scene support company, (1) rehab as needed.

1a: (4) engines, (2) ladders/LT, (2) BC, (1) utility, (1) engine & (1) ladder/LT for RIC (if there is a working fire), (1) rehab unit, and staff cars as needed (i.e. safety, hazard, special opertaions, etc.)

Please feel free to e-mail for any claifictaions or more information.

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Alan Romania, CEP
romania@uswest.net
IAFF Local 3449

My Opinions do not reflect the opnions of the IAFF or Local 3449.

[Bob Snyder]

FF McDonald...No "hate mail," just my two cents: I'm glad you agree with idea of using truck cos. on structures, but I hate to hear these kinds of blanket statements like "a ladder co. is a ladder co. and an engine co. is an engine co.", especially from someone who is studying fire service strategy and tactics (I read your profile).

We run a quint (55' stick with engine co. ground ladder complement), a ladder (100' stick with full ground ladder complement), and an engine. In our situation, covering (directly or via mutual aid) suburban and rural areas spanning residential, commercial, and industrial development, the versatility this combination provides is a huge bonus. The "typical" plan is for the quint to be deployed for attack as an engine. However, it is common for us to find ourselves in a position where only one rig can get directly to the scene (especially in rural areas, due to long setbacks on small lanes, etc.). In these cases, that rig had better be the quint, because anything else doesn't guarentee the flexibility needed to get the job done correctly. Just something to think about.

By the way, I see you're at OK State...I have a question...are you still using our old open-cab '51 LaFrance engine as a training piece? I saw a picture of it a few years back (refurbed and still in use), and just wondered if it's still plugging away.


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Lt. Bob Snyder
FFC#2, Mohnton, PA

[mwalshnh]

I work for a small department in NH, 3 Engines, 1 100' RMA, 1 Medium Duty Rescue (non-transport capable) and a couple of brush trucks. Our town consists of Hydranted and non-Hydranted.

The Ladder runs second due to any structure fire in the hydranted section of town and third due behind two engines to the non-hydranted section of town. Same "run card" for mutual calls to the neigboring town.

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[SBrooks]

My station houses a ladder truck (106'TDA) and a heavy duty rescue squad...we run the truck first on just about every fire call, though some assignments call for the squad. It's a tractor drawn aerial, so though it's big, positioning it isn't usually a problem. We have 12kW of generator, 13.5kW of lights, 252' of groundladders, fans, salvage equipment, etc. This allows the engines to be small, simple machines designed for hose-work. Most importantly crews never have to mentally 'change gears' depending on what piece they ride on or what order they arriving....when we get there, we're going to do truck work, period. We could potentially arrive at a scene without water...#1)there are still things that need doing and 2#)first enginehouse is about .25-.5 mi away, second is about 1.5 miles away.

I just recieved a copy of the ISO Fire suppression rating schedule (At slightly more than $1 a page http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/frown.gif ). A quick review of it reveals: "Response areas with 5 bldgs that are 3 stories or 35' or more in height, or with 5 bldgs that have a Needed Fire Flow greater than 3500 gpm....should have a ladder company. When no indiv. response district alone needs a ladder company, at least one ladder company is needed if buildings in the city meet the above criteria....***Response areas not needing a ladder co...should have a service company."

So...if you don't run your truck on the calls, it stands to reason you need to run something with the truck co. equipment, that you don't use as an engine at that fire.

[Tower33]

I can not imagine NOT having a Truck on the initial dispatch of any type of fire call whether it be a confirmed/suspected (across from http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/wink.gif) fire. This is looking at the issue from both a rural and urban stance. For instance:

RURAL: Water is the primary concern if you are in non-hydrant areas. This being the case then your department should consider a quint type of approach to purchasing/use of a ladder truck. This way the use as a engine for water or hose, in addition to truck co. duties (S&R, ventilation, entry, etc.) are available to those on-scene.

URBAN: I can only say here that it is a standard. How can you a) ladder multiple floors, sides, etc. of a structure for evacuation and RIC team access, b) flow copious amounts of water from elevated positions, c) perform the truck co. duties described above, etc, etc. etc....

Basically in the county I run in the dispatch for an local alarm is an engine and truck/squad, a street alarm is between 3-4 engines, and 1 special service (truck/squad) and finally a box alarm has at least 4 engines and two trucks.