Firefighting Hoods

[STA2]

Out of all the many departments represented by all of you, do any of you wear hoods? If so what types and what do you think of them and are they dept. issued? For those that don't wear them why not? I realize this could create chaos between young and old but what the helk.

Larry

[Truckie from Missouri]

To Hood... or Not to Hood...
...That is the Question.

Excellent topic for debate. My department issues whatever brand they purchase through the Metro Contract. (usually the low bidder)

I think my hood was made by Quest. It's itchy when you first put it on, and doesn't get any better. The seal around the mask gets loose over time. Not my favorite article of clothing. In fact I hate it.

Our policy dictates that they be worn.

Before I continue, I wish to clarify that I AM NOT speaking on behalf of my employer, my Union, or any of my coworkers. I am speaking ONLY for me, and what I say here is my opinion.

Feel free to agree or disagree with my opinion.

I think hoods are EXCELLENT for keeping ears/neck warm in cold weather. I also think hoods are handy to use as snot rags. Not to make anyone mad, but I am also of the opinion that hoods offer enough protection to get in way too deep and get you burned.

Now that I've stated my opinion, here's why I think what I think. The first two reasons are self explanatory.

We are overprotected from ambient and radient heat these days with our "State of the Art" gear. Yes, it's the best thing since sliced bread, an no, I don't favor returning to rubber coats.

Our sense of feel is blocked when we are so encapsulated. The meganerves in our necks and cheeks that detect rate of temperature rise are covered by insulating material (nomex, PBI, P-84, etc). The stinging ears bit is also blocked, but I never wait for that. When I feel the heat suddenly start to build, I either open the nozzle to cool the gases or back out (no water yet, etc) to a cooler area until we can knock the fire some.

I have also noticed, from reading the trade mags, that there are a lot of firefighters being burned through there "State of the Art" gear. Grotesque burns. I find myself wondering if they would have been in far enough to get burned like that had they not been wearing a hood? The gear that is supposed to insulate us is doing it's job. But, everything will eventually get saturated, and out gear gets transformed into a heat sinc once the insulation has absorbed all the heat it can. That's what's burning our brothers and sisters. We just get in way too close and don't even know it.

I also feel that a major issue needs to be addressed by the fire service as a whole. That issue is Training. Back to the basics, bread and butter training. My own personal experience is that we were issued the hoods, told to wear them, and given little training on what to expect. My department is in the process of correcting that. We're getting a training tower with a burn room and also one of those flashover cans for flashover awareness training. (Who knows, perhaps my view will change after some of these sessions.) My department is fortunate in that our community supports us when we ask for money, and we provide them excellent service. I realize that way too many departments out there are lucky to buy a set of gear, nevermind buying a lot of fancy stuff.

So, to hood or not to hood. As I stated above, we're required on my department. I compromise. I put mine on (properly) and when we get inside, I take a second or two to evaluate my current surroundings. I pull the hood away from my face momentarily to expose the meganerves in the cheeks and neck and see how hot it is, and evaluate if it's getting hotter. It's also useful to see which side is hotter, so (in that fine zero-visibility) I know which direction the fire is in.

Well, I've given my opinions, defended my stance, and offered a solution.


------------------
Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

Stay safe.
Ken

[FyredUp]

Having been burned on my neck and ears previous to the issuing of hoods I am a staunch supporter of them.

We are issued a multi layered PBI hood. I like the multi layer design because of the added protection. I can tell you before my department issued hoods I bought my own. And to tell you how long I have been a FF, my first hood was a nomex drag racers hood!

I will not attempt to argue any of Truckies points. I agree with the need for back to basics training. Unfortunately many of today's FF come out of academies or tech schools having only seen fire in the controlled environment of a burn tower. While this is beneficial, it is not the same as a real building.

Not getting burned involves being aware of your surroundings. Rather than burn my face I stick a gloved hand up over my head, when I am crawling of course, to check for heat rise. Perhaps not as sensitive as my face and ears but good enough for what I want to know.

Goos luck this could get very interesting....

[PTFD21]

To hood or not to hood !!! Ummmm ! that is a good question.. I love my hood and use it on all working structures. I did not like them much at first until while standing by at a high school bonfire,I stood near the fire with my hood on and my hood off and felt the difference in heat that it protected me from. It was unbelivable the difference two layers of hood made. I also was making entry into a burning apt. when the rear patio glass broke allowing all the heat to be pushed right into our attack teams faces and my hood was not covering my mask completely (just a hair from covering the mask) and I received a 2nd deg. burn. So if you are going or have to wear one make sure it is completely covering your face...
Ohh !!! and by the way we use double layered bib style PBI hoods. Enough blabbering for now..



------------------
ED C.
"Doin' it for lives and property !"
http://members.aol.com/PT10FD/info.htm

[Paul Grimwood]

It is an excellent topic Larry and one that will draw support and opposition from all quarters!

I have to stand strong in support of hoods but appreciate the major concerns voiced so far on this forum. Truckie, although in opposition, compromises well and conforms with departmental requirements in wearing one. He is right that some hoods are uncomfortable and you need to try a good few before purchasing. In terms of being 'over-protected', this stems from the final encasement in total protection a hood provides. There is now no natural 'sense' a firefighter can use to ascertain the conditions within a fire involved building.
But then truckie goes on to make the major point - TRAINING! For it is not that we are unable to utilise our senses anymore, but moreso, firefighters are not trained to recognise how a fire develops. Note I say 'develops' for it is one thing to enter burn buildings to extinguish fires but another to just watch a fire during its development and transitional stages. In the flashover 'cans' Truckie mentions there is every opportunity to witness, learn and practice and after, I am sure you will never want to enter a fire without a hood again!

Fyred up also hits the mark with the training
aspect and tells why he supports hoods. However, even he recognises the importance of being aware of your surroundings. I presume you mean an 'un-gloved' hand to test the temperature? A practice that many firefighters oppose but I support strongly, although it is never certain to keep you updated, second by second.

But then there is advances being made - for example, Smartcoat; alarms; face-up displays in face-masks informing of temperature and air supply etc. But then, can we afford all this stuff?

Bottom line is - don't CRAWL in a fire, but always have a position with one knee on the floor and the other foot on the floor. Keep this position as you advance because it is comfortable, effective, provides a good search stance, and places you at the right height to assess the conditions and still have some leeway. If you are forced to crawl then you are in too far!

Truckie - again makes a great point on cooling the gases. If you don't know I'm a BIG supporter of this by now then you haven't been reading my posts!! But HOW do you apply the water? That is a vital consideration.

Hoods - definitely yes! But more attention must be paid to training aspects and demonstrating how to 'read' the conditions, whilst emphasising the dangers of advancing too far in. The real deal is in knowing exactly where and how to place the water to protect your position. Further information at

------------------
www.firetactics.com (http://www.firetactics.com)

[Bobaff]

I don't believe that there is a any doubt if you should where a hood or not, ITS A PLAIN YES! There should be no "if, ands or buts" about the whole thing. You can say that you need it for telling how hot it is, but we all know that in todays firefighting there is no room for that bull.

The reason firefighters used their ears and neck to detect heat was because there was no alternative. They didn't have hoods so of course they used what they had no choice but to use anyway. All of this "don't use a hood because you can't tell if it's too hot" is just excuses, and, well, I don't take excuses, just facts.

You wanna feel the heat and burn some body parts, no problem. If you use the back of your hand by peeling your glove back a bit (or take it off if you dare) you can feel what the heat is like out there. I know what you are going to say is that it's not the same as feeling the heat rise as you go on your neck and ears. Well, believe it or not but my method is alot better. If you were to enter a structure using your ears, your ears would adjust to the heat slightly as you go (you get used to it) which would mean that it would be hotter than you think (this is why people got burned, not because it was just too hot, but because they couldn't tell it was too hot). By peeling back your glove you are feeling the initial sense of heat, not something your body has adjusted too.

There are just too many alternatives to "Feeling the heat" than to burn up vital parts of your body and deform yourself. The time of walking around with scale-burned skin has passed, more innovative ways are here. However if you want to still expose skin as a way of testing the temp. Well, might as well use something a little less obvious. If you burn the back of your hand its really not too bad compared to your ears.

The guys on my crew no better than to try to enter a structure without a hood. I'm open to any constructive criticism and believe me I understand why you may not want to wear a hood, but do you? It saddens me to know that some brothers just don't understand what is for the good of them. BUT I CARE ABOUT YOU ALL!!

Stay Safe, Stay Low, and stay away from all that GLOWS!!!

Bobaff

[STA2]

I forgot to mention what we wear here. We are issued in my carreer dept. AND volunteer dept. what are called "Reed" hoods. These are not sock hoods. They are PBI like our gear and have a liner like our gear. They cover your entire neck front and back and ears completely. They have elastic around the face area to conform to our SCBA masks. They were developed by Captain Clifford Reed of the Houston Fire Dept. back in the 80's I believe. Excellent product. In addition alot of guys wear a sock hood under the Reed hood. Just a little idea of what we wear. Be safe.

Larry

[MacGyver]

After having been burned with my hood in my turnout pocket.
I always wear my hood collar up and ear flaps down.
Have not been burned sense.

ONCE BURNED TWICE REMEMBERED

------------------

[DFDGREG]

We wear PBI hoods as per SOPs & comon sence. Dittos to pauls and bobs responses
Stay safe & God bless
Greg

[e33]

The hood always goes on...pants on first, then hood, then coat then helmet. I usually pull the hood up unless i forget or its a small job. I have earflaps in my helmet also. It really depends on wether or not i decide to pull it up. So being in a few hot fires, ive always had it on, and ****...if i am in something so hot that my ears would be crisping up on me...there would be something going on to tell me otherwise, for those who havent gone in the infamous "can", the hood is required..and you will see why...your mask lens will warp and deform from the heat...and our instructors mask lens melted all the way through so air was rushing out through the hole in the lens...now thats some hot ****. HOOD ON!!

[eppie]

Any piece of equipment in the fire service is an asset, if used correctly, and when warranted.

I carry a PBI Hood, and use it, sometimes...

[CFD SQURT81]

We're issued hoods as standard equipment, and yes I do wear one. Only to keep the hot stuff from dropping down my back and chest. Pulling the flaps down or keeping your collar up to protect against the radiant heat works well, and you can still have a feel for what the conditions are like.

I have to disagree with Paul, that we aren't supposed to be crawling. No wonder you need bookoo protection if you're half standing up. Sometimes you gotta kiss the floor for a minute while you're trying to make a room.

I know these hoods are a great advancement, and they do have some benefits. They are great in the winter time, and they are great rags in a pinch!

Sometimes we don't have a choice of our surroundings. We are put in positions everyday that we are at great risk of getting hurt. We're also in positions where people will die if not for our bravery.

I agree with the points of training, too. I work in a career department which is understaffed ( of course ) and is busy. Experience is a majority of our training.

However, I think one of the reasons why we hear of so many burn injuries may lie just in the fact that we are allowing ourselves to be put in positions we really didn't know we were in. Is suiting up one of your new guys in FULL protective gear and sending him into the unknown really what you should do? By the time he realizes he's in too deep, he's gonna have the scars to prove it.

Stay safe.

[KEA]

I also use the Cliff Read Hood. You only need to use it one time to be convinced that it is the best option available.

During a recent 2 story structure fire a two man team made entry through the back porch. The two bedrooms and livingroom had flash over with heavy extension into the upstairs. They both were wearing this hood and were able to extinguish the fire in about 1-2 minutes. (They were flowing over 250-gpm on their handline)

One of the comments after the fire was that they only put it out because they were wearing that different looking hood and could go inside.

Did the fire go out?

If safety is not compromised and it works, who cars if it looks different from a conventional sock hood.

Try it, youll like it!

[gp13]

In my department we wear p84 hoods, they are an asset,however many of us were taught to use your ears as a guide to back out. Burning any part of us is DUMB! If it can be prevented! WHERE DO WE GET A "READ" HOOD and will it interface with the "SAM HOUSTON"? Thanks

------------------


[This message has been edited by gp13 (edited August 13, 1999).]

[STA2]

Mark,
Yes the Reed hood will interface with the Sam Houston helmet. The Reed hoods were developed when HFD still issued Sams from Quartermaster. We now use Ben Franklins and ben II's. I prefer my Sam and still use it. You can contact your local fire equipment supplier (We use Casco industries) for info. A great product. E-Mail me and I will see about getting you one to try. Be safe.

Larry

[Hollywood]

The fire caught me only once. I had crawled into a room, when suddenly my left arm was on fire! The whole room was going! I had no line and practically did a backflip trying to get out of the room. I was able to get behind the safety of the hose line, singed but no permanent damage.
What made this fire different, was that I was wearing my hood. I usually never do. I use my ears as a gauge. Not when to bail out. But how close I can get? What needs to be done? Are conditions getting better or worse? Maybe we need more ventilation. maybe we need some cooling water before we advance. Hose streams go pretty far and there's more than one way to get at the fire.
The time I wore my hood, I couldn't feel anything. I would have never entered that room. I wouldn't have been able to make the door with all the heat that room was putting out. I wore the hood. I got burned.
My two cents.
Dave

[S. Cook]

REED HOODS are available from CASCO 888-634-3473 is the toll free number. If that doesn't work, try 817-626-3705.

They run about $110.00 each.

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited August 16, 1999).]

[DED1645]

Absolutely!!!!!!!!! Always wear your hood. Mine is sewed to my collar so it's right there. Put your coat on and pull your hood over. Can't beat it. I can't tell you what we are issued, but I will find out.

------------------
David DeCant
firefighter/NREMT-B
Lindenwold,NJ

[KATN61]

It is our dept. policy to wear hoods. Right now we have just started buying 2 ply P84 hoods converting from 1 ply PBI. A neiboring dept is wearing 3 ply PBI hoods, and i agree with the above comments about getting in too deep, there is a time that too much protection is a danger in itself