Barn Fire Tactics

[Knisely]

Does anyone know of accepted or proven tactics on letting barns burn if there is complete involvement of the structure. This seems to make sense by reducing the amount of resources needed, if exposures are not endangered reduce response rates to non-emergency, and not needing to camp out for the next 2 to 3 days for rekindles of the contents. The safety of the personnel and the public would be improved once this tactic was implemented. I'm sure there would be other benefits as well.
Any ideas ?

[Lt_John]

We have tried to implement a similar approach to barn/out building fires - however there are a couple of things to consider.

1. What is the owner going to think when he/she does not see any action being taken to save their property? Certainly you can explain your approach to them but it may not sink in - most people are pretty emotional when their possessions are burning (even if it is a barn)

2. Barns have a tendency to send a lot of embers up - what may appear to be no exposures can turn into a disaster in a very short time.

3. Also you need to consider what is commonly stored in a barn. We had a fire that appeared to be taking the whole barn so we worked to contain it only - after a 1/2 hour or so we have several barrels that BLEVE'd. Definitely something to think about - many farmers store petro products and liquid fertilizers in their barns.

I should say we cover a suburban area that still has several working farms. Over the last several years we have had a barn fire probably every other year. We have found that we keep enough water flowing to keep the situation under control. All of our first due companies respond in emergency mode until directed otherwise by the IC.

Hope this helps.

[Tom Lafleur]

Establish agood water supply,be it hydrants,drafting,or tankers. If it's that far gone just protect exposures and put out the grass fires. If it's a machinery storage barn, it should burn out fairly quick. If it has any amount of hay in it than expect to sit on it for a while.Use heavy equipment to break open the bales when it cools down enough. Most barns around here are built on a slab,so when it burns all the farmer has to do is plow off the debris and rebuild.So the more you let it burn the less debris he has to get rid of.

Stay Safe
Tom

[Dalmation90]

An additional benifit is less clean up costs for the owner.

Balance it with the need to preserve evidence for the fire marshal if arson is suspected.

Matt

[Bob Snyder]

We have kicked this question around at our station for years, but we still fight barn fires aggressively, just like we always have. Common sense seems to say that if it's lost, and you know for sure that it's lost, it's better in some ways to just let it go. There are a number of problems with this, and Lt_John and Matt listed most of them.

I would add that if the incident ever turns into litigation somehow, you had better be prepared to show that you did everything possible to avoid every conceivable damage, injury, or loss of any kind. It's hard to know what a jury will do, and you can be sure that you won't be presenting your case to any firefighters because they will have been screened out during jury selection.


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Lt. Bob Snyder
FFC#2, Mohnton, PA

[Dalmation90]

Another factor that weighs into the decision making whether to let it burn or not is whether there is pesticides being stored in bulk in the building -- it may be better to let them be incinerated than washed into the ground, or merely made air-borne by a cool burning fire.
Matt

[K A]

Why even respond? The cops can watch the place burn to the ground.

[cacfpd]

The farmers insurance agent may have a problem with you "letting it burn". Most insurance companies want to know that you will try to save anything you can. Although you should weigh the safety concerns listed above against what you will save.
As to hay bales, once the fire in "under controll" all the involved bales needs to be rolled out and extinguished one by one. If not you will be making several return trips to the scene, and possibly have something esle on fire as a result of the bales.

[resqcapt]

I just had this type of incident a couple of weeks ago with my volunteer district. Upon arrival we found a large pole barn with 230 rolled bails of hay fully involved, roof was down on hay. It was decided the best course of action was to let the fire burn and to protect the few exposures. This decision was reached after the first arriving engine began deck gun operations and we were able to discuss this option with the owner. The owner requested we let the remainder burn to allow an easier clean up. (This was his second barn fire in 15 years, the first we rolled all the bails out and extinguished the fire. This took about 36 hours.)
After reaching this decision the crews finished removing the tin from on top of the bails and wetting down exposures (mostly fields).
I think this decision is going to depend on many, many variables and will be different for each incident. As with everyting else there is no "one" right answer. Just cover the basics like exposures, anything salvageable, possibility of arson, etc..

Just my .02 worth and how we handled a similar situation. If the same call came in right now we would have to evaluate wether to fight or let it burn.

Stay safe out there, the life you save may be your own!

[Dalmation90]

The farmers insurance agent may have a problem with you "letting it
burn". Most insurance companies want to know that you will try to save
anything you can.

Nope, they care most about having to pay the least amount out to the insured. If the barn is fully involved, everything in it is probably already a total loss, and letting it burn clean minimizes enviromental and cleanup costs...costs the insurance company would usually be responsible for in addition the insured property.

Now, however, the insurance company will be concerned with preservation of evidence of arson...which may mean they don't have to pay anything http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

Usually if you have a barn that isn't insured or is minimally insured, the arson-for-profit motive just isn't there.

One thing we lose sight of sometimes is the "total cost" to the owner of an emergency. Our charge is to save life, health, and property.

You may very well save a bunch of half-burned junk, but the cleanup costs my exceede the value of the salvaged items.

Now if this was a house or office, or otherwise contains intangibles like photo albums or business records that have very little value but are irreplacable, you're not in a let-it-burn situation.

Bottom line is it is a complicated decision to reach, you need to talk with the owner, evaluate the situation, and document you're decision making carefully. But it is a very solid and valuable tactic when the occassion arrives to utilize it.

[stone35]

I have been to quite a few barn fires, and they usually are tobacco drying barns that catch fire in our area. These barns are old, big, and the wood is very,very dry. This makes extinguishment a really hard task. It does not help that most barn fires are not reported until the entire structure is practically fully involved. Our main concerns are propane tanks, heavy equipment, and exposure to other areas of the property. Another concern is structure failure and their collapse zones. They are not usually worth a life to save, but a really good effort never hurts.

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Stone35

[DD]

We made a mutual today on a hay fire. It involved about 200 large round bales. They were stored in a quonset hut type barn. The hay completely filled the barn up to the roof. One end was enclosed with wood framing & plywood siding which had mostly burned away. The other end was open. The metal roof/siding got hot, but had not fallen or sagged at the time were were released.

Water was supplied by a tanker shuttle and by dual 3" lines that were hand laid under a fence and down a hill, about 400', to an engine that was drafting from a pond and relay pumping. The engine which was receiving the relay was supplying a portable master stream monitor with a solid bore tip. The master stream was used to attack the seat of the fire and to try to cool the roof/siding.

There were 1-3/4" handlines also used. Mostly for knocking down fire in the bales that were being moved. This operation involved four tractors. Three of them were equipped with forks to move the bales. The other had a large grader blade and was used to push piles and keep the path passable for the hay movers. Fog patterns were used to push smoke from the tractors & drivers. Have any of you ever tried to get a farmer to put on a SCBA? You might as well try to get him to wear a necktie to the field.

The County Sheriff's Dept. provide a officer to keep the tanker route open and an ambulance crew responded and stood by during the operation. The air temperature was about 95 degrees and it was very humid. I did not
hear of any injuries.

It took a lot of effort by three departments, the farmer, and his neighbors. I would probably have let it burn. The host chief wanted to give it a maximum effort. I believe that he made a good decision. I guess that's why he has a white hat.


I'll make another post in a few days and report on the amount of damage to the barn. They hay was ruined.

[TommyB]

I agree with alot of what some of the other posts had to say. Number 1, a barn fire is (usually) not worth the risk of an interior attack. How agressive the exterior attack is depends on a number of variables - how far along is the fire, what's in the barn, how does the farmer feel about letting it burn? One thing to keep in mind is that we must have the public maintain an image of us as professionals - be it a volunteer of paid dept. Think about how it is going to look when people driving by who don't understand the decision making process we face see a bunch of ff's standing around watching a structure burn. Not the greatest PR in the world, huh? We typically fight an aggressive exterior attack.

[DD]

Update on our mutal to a barn fire yesterday. Most of the hay was removed. There is still a pile about 5 feet high which is burning.
The roof/siding of the quonset hut barn is still intact and not buckled. The farmer says that it will only require a coat of paint.

He is very happy with the efforts that were made and the results that they produced. This man is a very influential member of his community. I feel that this will result in excellent PR and will enhance the reputation of his local fire department.

The major factors that contributed to this
good outcome were:

1. Tremendous effort by everyone involved.
2. Steel roof/siding, concrete floor.
3. Combustible material of the structure limited to an end wall.
4. Master stream with solid bore tip attacking the fire and cooling the roof/siding.
5. Lots of equipment moving burning hay bales.

Sometimes very hard work and good tactics do
overcome tough situations. I did not think that the barn would withstand the heat, but
it looks like I was wrong AGAIN.