Emergency Warning Devices for Vol Private Vehicles

[BURNSEMS]

There is currently a debate in our area over the Use of Emergency Warning Devices on Volunteer F/F Personal Vehicles. Our Department currently does NOT allow our Volunteers to utilize Emergency Lights I would like to hear the GOOD, BAD AND OTHERWISE

[PTFD21]

Hi Jeff -
Well it is one of those topics that yoou will not get a definintive answer on. I have seen good and bad drivers using emergency lights. If it is decided to allow the use of them, then a major point should be made of the consequences of driving like an idiot and thinking you are invincible. I am a paid on call firefighter with a combination dept.. Our officers run much of the time by theirselves, so it can be imperative that we get their as soon as possible [the lights do help!]. It is important that your f/f's know the importance of being responsible with those lights and siren and not endangering their lives or that of the public by driving recklessly. Another point to drive home to them is that "lights and sirens,do not a forcefield make." in a personal vehicle or fire apparatus. Many of the civilian drivers will not hear you, see you or pay any attention to you, no matter how many lights and noisemakers your vehicle has.
OK enough babbling on,hope this helps.

Stay Safe
ED C.
<a href="http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/ptfd21/index.htm"> Pittsfield Twp. F.D. </a>

[This message has been edited by PTFD21 (edited October 24, 1999).]

[BVFD]

Our dept. does allow the use of lights, but many in our area don't. I believe that with proper training in operating emergency vehicles, and printed and enforced rules about there use on personal vehicles, it should be safe to allow them.

[st34ff]

In my department, which is about half-way between Phillidelphia and Allentown, Pa, we are allowed to use blue lights only. And belive me, they do help me trying to get to the firehouse. But, like everyone else says, take the privliage responsibly. That is the only way I can put it. I hope this will help you.

Kyle

www.chalfontfireco.8m.com

[FFtazUFC3]

The State of Md does not allow FF's to utilize anyform of lighting or siren device. With the exception of the top 5 officers in the dept. I believe that w/ proper ed. and training, ie: a good EVOC program, they should be allowed. Lord knows it would drop several minutes off mine and others response times.

[Scoco]

We don't have any prohibition against emergency lights in private vehicles. Per state law (Illinois) we can only use flashing blue lights; blue/red/white combos are only permitted on emergency vehicles. And like others, I have seen some asinine driving by FF/EMTs in personal vehicles on the way to a scene. All you can do is to try to talk some sense into them before they cause an accident.

[S. Cook]

Jeff,

I've seen/heard more bad PR involving POV's running hot to the station and to the scene than any other topic. I guess my advice is are your members smart/mature/grown enough to drive their POV responsibly with warning lights. If they are go for it. If not, don't let them drive the apparatus either.

If you haven't already, call the DPS office in your area and get a copy of Vernons Civil Statutes too.

[TommyB]

I am in an all volunteer rural dept, so we do have a need to respond to the station as quickly as possible. In NC we are allowed to use red lights on our POV. The only time I typically use mine is when I meet traffic. It does definitely help (in most cases) to allow me to get around traffic. Of course, we have all come up on those people on the road who are either oblivious to the fact that there is a POV w/red light and/or a large fire truck w/lights and sirens on behind them. My biggest concern with the use of lights, etc on POVs is the younger guys who are inexperienced drivers to begin with. Add in the adrenaline and the red light and you have a potentially lethal combination. I would strongly urge your dept (if it has not already) to have a written policy about responding in POV and what the acceptable limits are (ie...going 100mph is never acceptable, nor is exceeding the speed limit to get to a dumpster fire).

[26DC]

I first entered the fire service in Pennsylvania, then was in Texas for 9 years, and now am back in Penna. It's an interesting topic. From personal experience and opinion, Penna. seems to be telling it's residents that their house-on-fire/cardiac-arrest/etc. is NOT an emergency until the responders get to the fire/EMS station. In Penna, the blue lights are a courtesy light, which a fair amount of drivers DO yield to if they can. But it's bizarre that these "courtesy" responders (in their own vehicles) suddenly become "emergency" responders when they get behind the wheel of a 39' ladder truck. Or they can be trusted to stick a tube into your lungs, but can't handle emergency driving unless it's in an ambulance?

In many states (TX, OH, WV, and more), volunteer responders are considered emergency responders, running red lights and sirens. I would agree with those who support multiple colors; if nothing else, red and white. White is necessary on ANY emergency vehicle to get the attention of drivers around the emergency vehicle. The color(s) serve to identify after the attention is gotten.

I strongly agree that any dept. allowing emergency response in POVs have definite SOPs that govern their use. But states need to stop treating emergency lights on POVs like some sort of holy honor. They are an aid to doing our job more efficiently.

[KNOBMAN]

I DO NOT THINK EMERGENCY LIGHTS ON A POV IS A GOOD IDEA. THEY SEEM TO GET ABUSED IN SOME TYPE OF WAY. I'VE SEEN SOME PEOPLE WITH UNDERCOVER LIGHT SO THEY LOOK LIKE A POLICE VEHICLE. RUNNING CODE 1 TO THE FIRE STATION FOR A LOW PRIORITY CALL IS UN-CALLED FOR. WE ARE REACHING THE YEAR 2000 AND I THINK THE VOLLEY WORLD SHOULD START TO REALIZE THAT( NO PUN INTENDED ) SUGGESTIONS: CUT HOME REPSPONDER FOR THE LOW PRIORITY TYPE CALLS IE. DUMPSTER, WIRE, KNOWN ALARM MAL. MEDICAL LOCALS. WORK OUT SOME TYPE OF DUTY CREW WHERE THERE ARE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PERSONEL STAFFING THE STATION 24HRS. A DAY.....EI. IF YOU YOUR STATION HAS A MEDIC UNIT STAFF IT ( VOLLEYS) WITH 5 FIREFIGHTER. ALL 5 CAN GO IF YOU HAVE A FIRE HIT OR 2 CAN GO IF YOU HAVE A MEDIC CALL, AND YOU STILL HAVE 3 FF FOR A FIRE CALL. THE HOME RESPONDERS CAN STILL COME TO THE STATION TO GET THE REST OF THE EQUIPTMENT ON THE STREET. JUST LOOKING OUT FOR SAFTEY.

MY OPINOIN.

THANK YOU AND HVE A NICE DAY.

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UNION AND PROUD OF IT!

[Davidjb]

What exactly does the year 2000 have to do with it? It is impossible for some towns (including mine) to have any amount of staffing at the station 24 hours a day. We all have other jobs and responsibilities that we drop at a moments notice when the pager goes off. We are a call Department and we do a good job of providing the town with what it needs, fire prtection/suppresion.
If a person is responsible enough to be a usefull member of our department, we believe he/she is responsible enough to have lights on their pov and not abuse them.

------------------
David Brooks, Firefighter, D/O
Newmarket Fire Department
Newmarket, New Hampshire
http://www.NewmarketNH.com/Fire

[morriss]

We are allowed to use red lights (2 or less) on our personal vehicles when responding to calls. This also holds for the rescue squad in the area. Our department is 100% volunteer and has restrictions on the distance members can live from the building. Lights are O.K. if the driver realizes that the light does not give him/her the right to break ANY traffic laws while responding to the call. The local law enforcement in our area handles our responses based on the "wreckless nature" of the driving.

[firefighter60]

Sorry but one post here hit a nerve. Not all volunteer departments have the manpower to staff their stations 24/7. Mine is one that can be used as an example. We have 35 members, with most of us working daylight and out of town. On a daylight call during the week we are lucky to get 5 to 8 people for a call. Some of us are within 10 to 12 miles of town and our employeers will let us respond on a confirmed fire that goes to a second alarm. The use of our Blue Lights here in the state of Pennsylvania is a great help in letting us get through heavy traffic areas. Yes you do have to use common sense but our department does not let some one use a blue light until they have it registered and once every 18 months we try to run an EVOC class. I agree with some of the other people that have posted here, if we are responsible enough to drive the trucks and be considered emergency responders in them then we should be considered emergency responders in our own vehicles.

Dave

[fyrescue]

Good points from everyone. Here in New York volunteer firefighters are granted the right to use blue lights when responding to calls on the authority of the Fire Chief. It is strictly a courtesy light and does not give the member any right to break any traffic law. Our members respond to the station when the alarm comes in.
As a Chief Officer, I'm granted the use of red/white lights and sirens to respond to the scene. I'm granted the full priveleges of an emergency vehicle, I'm sure you know the drill. But does every call dictate the use of these devices? Certainly not. I use the following as a guide. Is someone's life at risk and can I make a difference? If yes, then I go "conditon RED", lights and siren. Is someone's CO detector going off and I have report of no illness? If yes, then I go "condition WHITE", no lights and siren.
I've read many stories and studies which find there is little time saved going "balls to the wall", it is better to arrive alive so you can help. I have to agree with that thought process. I don't believe there is a benefit to equip the rank and file with sirens, and if I were the one to eliminate the blue lights and break tradition I would probably be lynched!
But you need a good SOP regarding response guidelines and make everyone aware if they break the law of the road they are held responsible. When we get word someone has violated the law they get a short 30 day vacation, as well as the ticket. I'd rather have to discipline someone than go to their funeral. Fortunately we don't have many problems.

Be Safe.

Mike

[jpm]

RATHER THEN BEATING THIS TOPIC OVER AND OVER AGAIN MONTH AFTER MONTH .HOW ABOUT A SOLUTION.ANY MEMBER WHO USES A BLUE LIGHT MUST COMPLETE A D.D.C. (DEFENSIVE DRIVING COURSE)
E.V.O.C.(EMERGENCY VEHICLE OPERATION COURSE) AND NO BOOTS CAN HAVE ONE UNTIL THEY FINISH PROBATION. MAKE THEM LEARN TO GET TO THE FIREHOUSE SAFELY WITHOUT THEM FIRST.

[This message has been edited by jpm (edited June 22, 1999).]

[Davidjb]

LOL, A very good solution I think JPM.
A defensive driving course is included with our state driver/operator class, but most of the department hasn't taken that. I think a seperate evoc course would be a good thing.

------------------
David Brooks, Firefighter, D/O
Newmarket Fire Department
Newmarket, New Hampshire
http://www.NewmarketNH.com/Fire

[DD]

Indiana uses blue lights for volunteers. It
only asks for the right of way and does not make the POV an emergency vehicle. State law is that any firefighter who is convicted of a traffic violation while operating a blue light must be immediately dismissed from the department by the chief. Green lights are for EMTs.

[parkerfp1]

I am from the Commonwealth of PA and as another person already said, blue lights are a courtesy light. The majority of person will move out of the way for a blue light. Red lights can be utilized on POV's as long as the are a chief of fire police capt. OUr department is very rural and the only time I ever used my blue light was going from the hall to the scene. Or crossing the main highway through town to get to the hall. Now as the fire police captain I run my red light the whole way to the hall or the scene.

We submit a list of all members with lights to the local police and State Police. We also give this to our insurance carrier. However, it is stated in our SOG's that all member with blue ligths must obey traffic laws. We enforce this to an extent. If the subject is reported going through town (20mph) at excessive speed, he is suspended for 30 days. The city police also had a blue light class about two years ago.

Our rule of thumb is bascially if it is already fully involved, there is no need to speed. The structure is as good as gone. The severity of the situation dictates each incident. But there is only one thing that every operater of an emergency light must follow and that is their head. Drive smart!

[jpm]

last saturday i took my second 6 hour defensive driver course. in new york state if you take the course you save 10 percent on your insurance.(times that by 3 p.o.v .i save a couple of bucks) they will also deduct 3 points.( i don't have any of them) if the course did not work do you think they would do that? the city i work for pays for the class.(not as a f.f) about lunch time we got a break to go outside. as soon as we walked out the door a friend came up to me and asked if i heard about tommy.tommy was killed in a one car auto accident the night before ejected from his vehicle.he was found by a jogger at 7:30 am. after lunch one of the guys stood up and asked to have a minute of silence and to dedicate this class and the use of seat belts in memory of tommy all agreed.

yesterday morning after a p.i.a.a. call i was flipping through a volunteer news letter. when i came opon a article about the number two cause of l.o.d.d. vehicle crashes. i think this is something we can fix !

make your department pay for a (d.d.c) and a( e.v.o.c) whatever the cost.

buckle up

stay low stay safe

[This message has been edited by jpm (edited June 22, 1999).]

[knightjr121]

personal lights for ur vehicle are pretty cool to have. but getting to the firehouse 3 or 4 seconds quicker is not seriously going to have much of an impact. i don't think they're really neccessary but if u use them they should mainly be for people to give u the right away at four way stops and not to excessively speed. remember its always better to be part of the solution and not the problem

[Todd Trimble]

In support of POV emergency lights, I'd add that it's a lot easier to find an address in the dark on a wooded county road when there's a truck parked out front with blue lights flashing.

Add takedowns, alleys, PA, etc to your lightbar and suddenly you're more flexible and thereby more valuable on scene. (No, that doesn't mean you can make up for lack of experience, bad atitude, etc by putting more lights on your POV...)

Just some thoughts...

------------------
--
Todd Trimble
Fairland Volunteer Fire Department

[firefighter60]

KnightJr121, agreed that if most of your membership is within a mile of the station it is only going to save you 3 to 4 seconds. In my case, I live 5 1/2 miles from the station. Now if all the trucks are gone I respond directly to the scene. I am a lieutenant with my department and as anyone will say the officers have to set the example. If I get behind someone who will not pull over I don't go into the panic mode and start tailgating or anything else. I stay behind that person and eventually that become aware that you are behind them. 80 to 90% of the population will yeild the right of way to a volunteer using some kind of warning light. Just remember that the person who does not yeild is the person who has never needed our services and believes that volunteers are "just playing at being firefighters", they have no idea that most of this country is protected by volunteers. I don't want the paid guys and gals getting upset by this, they are in areas that can afford to have paid departments and god bless them that they can make a living at what we all do. If more of the general population knew the basic stats of this they would be more apt to yeild the right of way, but they don't so we go on and do the best we can.

Dave

[Tom Lafleur]

In my dept.(Mass) we have an understanding with the local PD, if you get caught breaking the law useing your red lights than you get busted. The problem in our town is E.M.S., which is a seperate org. also runs red lights on there POVs and sometimes we get blamed for their bad driving.

[Wolf2980]

Hey Knobman,
so what your saying is turn my vol. dept. into a paid dept. with a full time staff and that would solve the problem right? Emergency lights are a nesscesity for volleys. Unlike paides, we have to come from somewhere to the firehouse and do the exact same job. A deffensive driving coarse is a great idea for all those in the dept. AND BYE-THE-WAY, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNPRIORITIZING A CALL, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON UNTIL YOU GET THERE!

[KNOBMAN]

Mr.Wolf,
If you would re-read my
post I suggested DUTY CREWS. To
drop down to your level, have the
VOLUNTEERS staff the station! DO
YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? About the
priority of calls: You can honestly
justify running lights and sirens
(in your car or even a pump) for a
wire down, fuel on the roadway,
calls for service? Many large
metro~fire departments run alot of
non~emergency responses, you know
the department that you have every
T~shirt for. Think about it when
you are enroute to the station with
your dash lights and stuff for a
routine engine transfer or a
service call.


P.S. I do not think you want to
make this into a CAREER vs. volley
board so please get the facts
before you speak!




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UNION AND PROUD OF IT!

[BURNSEMS]

The object of this post was to gather info,,there has been alot of good info given but lets relax our egoes for a while PAID OR VOLUNTEER WE ALL DO THE SAME JOB ******* SAVE LIVES AND PROPERTY

[Bob Snyder]

This topic probably causes more trouble than it should, but here's my two cents anyway. I'm a volunteer in Pennsylvania also. I truly believe that what we're doing is important enough and that there are enough of us that are responsible enough that we can and should use emergency warning devices on personal vehicles. Having said that, I also recognize that there are those who use them irresponsibly. The bottom line on irresponsible use is that the companies as a whole, and the officers in particular, have to be willing to discipline the people who abuse the privledge. Any single situation is a judgement call, but you've got to be willing to make the call and enforce your policies. If that means losing a few volunteers who won't act as part of the team, then so be it.

I also believe that the "courtesy light" setup in PA causes more problems than it solves. The only way that this will ever work well is to either go with personal vehicles having red/siren privledges, or doing away with warning devices for everybody who has blue lights now. My experience is that this half-baked status for blue lights in PA confuses other motorists and sets up situations that breed abuse by fire fighters. Personnally (and this is going to get me into trouble with somebody on this board for sure), I'd be in favor of giving full red/siren privledges to senior members and no privledges to probationary members, junior firefighters, or others of similar status. I recognize that there are juniors who are more responsible than some seniors (and I think the juniors at my station are in that responsible category), but I'm playing the percentages on this one. Think of it as a cooling off period before granting the privledge. I'd also be in favor of a "one strike and you're out" policy for everyone...Cause one accident, or be shown to have definitely risked one, and lose the privledge, at least for some significant amount of time.

Last, I have to answer Knobman on a few points: First, I agree that low-priority calls don't justify responding emergency speed, and that applies to personal vehicles and apparatus. There are times and places for normal flow responses, and they should be clearly defined and enforced by department policy. However, I really think that the whole part about duty crews and such shows a lack of understanding of the reality of the situation of a lot of volunteer stations. Bottom line: if your entire crew consists of 15-20 volunteers, who have to train, respond, fund-raise, maintain, repair, and everything else, it's just too much to ask to sit duty shifts. Most of the stations I know of in my area are just like this, including mine, and I don't expect a flood of new recruits in the county any time soon. That's just the way it is.


------------------
Lt. Bob Snyder
FFC#2, Mohnton, PA

[Dalmation90]

it's just too much to
ask to sit duty shifts

Agreed. And you also have to realize that most volunteer stations, the call volume is so low, the members would get bored. My department does encourage members to use the station, but we don't push for standby crews -- on average, you'd have to spend 24 hours at the station to be there for a single call.

[RKenny BFDNY]

With my department in Western NY, blue lights for volunteers and red for officers offer some advantage in getting to a call. However I feel personnel need to be trained and then repremanded for any violations. There also needs to be some prioritizing of calls. Recently , our department was dispatched for a mutal aid standby at a nearby department who was at a structure fire. The volunteers responding used their blue lights and rushed to the station. When I pulled out of the station I did not use the emergency lights on the heavy rescue, but rather just drove 55 mph to the other department's station. So was it necessary to run the blue lights, no. The key here, as mentioned numerous times already , is to have a EVOC training course, and to set guidelines. And no, there isn't a need to run red on every call. That was the 70's approach, wires down etc. don't warrant emergency lights. Lets work together on decreasing the number of firefighter deaths while responding to calls.



[This message has been edited by RKenny BFDNY (edited July 17, 1999).]

[bgilmore07]

Question for all of you who would allow warning lights on P.O.V.'s sanctioned by your department.

If one of your members is involved in an accident or runs over a councilman, old lady, kid or even a popular neighborhood squirrel, will your department be willing to accept liability?

If said member sustains damage to their vehicle while responding with their warning lights, will your department pay for repairs?

Ahhh, the simplest issues are never that simple.

[Truckie from Missouri]

The way I see it, if someone really wants to spend the $$ it takes to deck out his/her vehicle with flashers and woowoos, well, I have no problem. Here in MO, a vollie responding to a bona fide emergency call can utilize the emergency equipment. Missouri statues state that a responding vollie's vehicle IS an emergency vehicle. (from here on out, EV is generic--app OR pov) Statues also require that if an EV is responding with the lights, the siren WILL be sounding. I'm not even gonna get into the 3 am bullsh!t here.

My vollie FD had an attorney once explain that if our lights are flashing w/o a siren sounding, in court, WE will be hung because WE didn't do EVERYTHING possible to warn the stupid driver we just nailed.

Each department ought to set up guidelines. They should be strictly enforced. You blow it, you're revoked. Period. I agree with the earlier post that if they aren't mature enough to drive a pov w/ emerg. equip, then DON'T let them drive the apparatus!

I've been a vollie, and am now full time. When I vollied, yes, my vehicles had lights and sirens. I also carried Emergency Vehicle Insurance on my own. It wasn't required, but I felt better with it.

I've seen good and bad drivers on both vollie depts and fulltime depts. There are stupid drivers everywhere. We as responders see that a lot. Defensive driving and a good EVOC is a step in the right direction.

------------------
Be safe.

Ken

[jpm]

bgil yes is the answer to your question. a volunteer firemen is covered by insurance and worker comp responding to any call,
drill, work detail, convention,(acting as a delagate) or authorized fire department functions. does that free him civilaly or criminally from his actions ? no !
furthermore there is no such term as the right of way. you only have the right of way when it is given to you. does not matter if your in a p.o.v. firetruck ambulance or a police car.
now knowing that is a volunteer fireman in his p.o.v. a emergency vehicle?

stay low stay safe

[Bob Snyder]

Woah, time out, folks. Whether anyone is covered by insurance, what rules they have to follow, how right-of-way works, and most of these other issues that everyone's kicking around here are largely determined by things like:

1. individual state laws
2. individual insurance carrier policies
3. civil court precedent

I know for a fact that I can travel an hour or two from home (I live in Southeastern PA) in four different directions and be in places governed by four different sets of rules on these subjects. If you really want to know what's up, you need to talk to the right authorities.

The PA State Police will send a trooper to do a training session on rules and safety in personal vehicle and apparatus responses for fire companies in PA, if requested. Maybe some of your states will do the same. You can always talk to you insurance agent and see what they have to say.



------------------
Lt. Bob Snyder
FFC#2, Mohnton, PA

[Jim M.]

I'd add one comment to Bob's reply. Do not rely on your insurance agent for coverage answers. While they have the best of intentions, they are not lawyers and are not liable to you if they answer incorrectly. If you want specific information about whether a certain practice is covered by your existing policy ask the insurance COMPANY to reply in writing. If that doen't work, (many companies will just say "Read the policy") ask your lawyer to put it in writing. That way if the written answer is incorrect, there is professional liability insurance to fall back on. Agents are primarily responsible for sales and minor service issues - not intrepretations of fine print.

[kiddo]

I'm from a small VFD, and we are allowed to have red lights on our vehicles, be it a lightbar or the dashlight, bubble, strobe, whatever your preference. We're prohibited to have any sirens, those are for the Police/Fire/EMS vehicles only. Around here, if you are exceeding the speed limit while enroute to the scene or station, the HP's either pull you then, or follow you to wherever you are going...then you get a ticket. Whether or not any action is taken within the department, I'll have to check. I think it may give the dept. a bad rep, depending on how the public see's it, but it's up to the driver of the POV of whether or not they want to take that risk.

[jpm]

i guess i spoke to soon

if you would like information on line of duty accidents and what is covered from new york state call 518-474-6674

i made sure that our insurance company covered the same things

stay low stay safe

[alpha192]

I have been a volunteer firefighter for about 9 years in large college town in central Pennsylvania. Our firefighters are allowed to
use blue lights to get to either the station or scene. If you abuse that privilege, you get a little vacation {30 days first offense}.

We are the only fire company in this are and are blessed with a local community that supports us and provides us with the tools
we believe we need. My company is made up of about 100 firefighters with 9 apparatus, and responded to just over 800 fire calls
last year.

Our chief officers have prioritized calls for us. i.e. dumpster fires, transfer assignments, co alarm/ no illness are non emergency.
Neither the firefighter's POV or the company's apparatus respond "lights and siren". Un officially, it is frowned upon { pear
pressure works on more then teens }to use your blue light to automatic alarms, although the apparatus responds "lights and sirens".

Recently, the Pennsylvania State House has been visiting the concerns of emergency lights on POVs and other vehicles. This
review was not brought about by the fire/ems service, but by reports of police impersonation to pull over unsuspecting female
drivers. What comes of this state review, I don't have that crystal ball.

One of the "tools" we have recently acquired to perform our duties is a bunk room. We have 1 listed shift each day. 10 p.m. to 6
a.m. With our centrally located station, this is our historically slow response period and the time of most life hazard at fires.
Knobman has suggested that we need to move into the 21st century and staff all volunteer stations 24/7. We have what might be
almost a perfect set up for that. We have lots of volunteers, good equipment, and a couple of calls a day. BUT with this we still
only average 3 to 5 people on a night's shift. That means on thursday we could get 10 firefighters {staffing 1 engine, 1 truck} and
later that week on sunday we may only have a driver on the shift.

Your idea is admirable. In a perfect world, there would be nothing but 6 man crews on all of Americas fire apparatus. but then,
in a perfect world. . . we would not be needed.

KEEP SAFE all

[Grog]

You have to think about what you are responding to. My last Dept. responded to all EMS calls, ocean rescue, and fire calls. It does matter what kind of calls you are going to as how you respond.

I lived in a beach area so in the summer it did not matter if we were in an engine or a QRV, you had to watch out for kids and cars all over the place.

Most in the Dept. had a red dashlight (NC) it really was easier as callers would be on 911 and see a POV drive by the un/mis marked house and flag us down. After 1st responder arrived on sceneit makes it easier for Fire/Rescue Squad/EMS to find the location.

If you crash it just makes another call to respond to.

[This message has been edited by Grog (edited October 24, 1999).]

[out-a-water]

In the state of Indiana, Vollies are allowed to run a blue light. This light has to be visible 360 degrees. (Therefore, to get away from the running of dash lazers)., It is up to the Fire Chief of the department to enforce this rule. People who abuse it, actually could cause there Fire Chief to go to jail, If he does not have them follow the law. There is a lot of Vollies who do not use them correctly, The blue light asks for the right away. People do not have to give it to you. You are not suppose to run a red light or stop sign either. This light just verifies that you are a firefighter and you are on an emergency run of some type. Most people will pull over for you.

I really think the problem of emergency lights for volunteers is that the departments, at least in Indiana, do not train the individuals on the use of the emergency lights. Most of them are probably not aware of the law. Further more, they need to re-educate the public on what a blue light is for. Yes, these are problems. Yes, I might sound harsh about emergency lights. But I was a Fire Chief who took extreme majors to make sure his men were trained in the proper use and were held accountable for there actions with this device. It all comes down to education of the public, and training the firefighters in the proper use of the emergency lights.

Stay safe brothers and sisters.
out-a-water
Indiana

[Frank Allen]

To Mr. Knobman
You have to understand that us vollies can not set a duty crew up because everyday is going to be different people able to responde to the call. I dont know much about you so I am not going to get all up tight over some "professional firefighter". I look at it this way 75% of all firefighters are volunteer so now you tell me who is more professional. From what I have read of you, you have never been a volunteer.

"VOLUNTEER BY CHOICE"
"UNPAID PROFESSIONAL"




------------------
Frank R. Allen

[Frank Allen]

To Mr. Knobman
You have to understand that us vollies can not set a duty crew up because everyday is going to be different people able to responde to the call. I dont know much about you so I am not going to get all up tight over some "professional firefighter". I look at it this way 75% of all firefighters are volunteer so now you tell me who is more professional. From what I have read of you, you have never been a volunteer.

"VOLUNTEER BY CHOICE"
"UNPAID PROFESSIONAL"




------------------
Frank R. Allen

[Frank Allen]

To Mr. Knobman
You have to understand that us vollies can not set a duty crew up because everyday is going to be different people able to responde to the call. I dont know much about you so I am not going to get all up tight over some "professional firefighter". I look at it this way 75% of all firefighters are volunteer so now you tell me who is more professional. From what I have read of you, you have never been a volunteer.

"VOLUNTEER BY CHOICE"
"UNPAID PROFESSIONAL"




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Frank R. Allen

[SIGNAL99.COM]

I don't think I have ever been more aggravated reading a forum as I am now! Mr. Knobman - You have alot to learn! With all the hours us volunteers put in now for drills and alarms, you act as if making more time away from our homelife and having crews stay at the firehouse 24 hours a day is realistic. You need to remember a few things here. First of all, were not getting paid to do the same job you get paid to do. Second, you obviously do not live in a house that is protected by "Vollies". We all know that just wouldn't be good enough for "Mr.Union Man"! The volunteer firefighters in this country are just sick and tired of certain career folks acting as if they are soooo much better than the volunteer world. Just because we don't train everyday, doesn't mean we can't do the job just as good if not better. Remember, we do it because we want to do it. Some and I said SOME, career folks do it because of the pay check. Once I've sen a paid boy trapped in his car and he was in "Volly Terf". He never said anything about "Vols" not being equal after we got his ass out!!! Maybe that's what some need.

[NAMBONK]

DON'T THINK MR.KNOBMAN HAS POSTED ANYTHING ON THIS BOARD IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS...HOW ABOUT GETTING ON WITH IMPORTANT TOPICS AND FORGET ABOUT BASHING ONE PARTICULAR PERSON.

C-YA!

[e33]

The NAMBONK http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/wink.gif is right..give it a rest folks. What are we accomplishing here..except making yet another forum an battleground and not answering the original question. Have a nice day all.

[DED1645]

In the state of NJ you have to in writing apply for a blue light permit. Which must originate from the department then goto the municipal offices for the Mayor to approve an dit to be sent to the state. The there are restrictions to the quanity and positioning of the lights. Also there are candle power restrictions also. No sirens for this personal. Although I did replace my horn w/ an electric air horn which has a 200 watt speaker.(There is always red tape) The top two officers of the dept. can get a red light and siren permit.(This permit is a joint permit for both) Although this is how it is suppose to be done the rules are only followed if your chief inforces it. Our chief did. No permit, no lights. If you were caught, you were suspended. Police usually didn't get involved unless they get complaints or seen something dangerous. Then again, I would want to deal w/ the police than my chief. You would do every crap assignment for a month. I drive a truck in Brooklyn,NY and they have volly squad that are runned by there Jewish communities and they have red lights and sirens on their POV's. They are the most dangerous group of people driving then I have ever seen!!!

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David DeCant
firefighter/NREMT-B
Originally Mantua,NJ
Presently Lindenwold,NJ(I'm not a member of any of this District's dept's.)

[Scene25]

I would first like to clear up an earlier comment made by KNOBMAN. KNOBMAN stated that if you have 5 persons at the station, and the Medic unit goes out, you still have 3 firefighters at the station for a fire responce. In regards to this, in Pennsylvania, the rule is 2 in, 2 out. If you only have 3 firefighters at the station, this isnt possible. I do understand that KNOBMAN is probably a career firefighter, but let me say this. To many paid personnel knock volunteers, which is fine. It is a world of free speech. But, I have some good friends with the City of Pittsburgh Fire Department, as well as other career stations, and all of the career firefighters who are also instructors, have no problem training the volunteers. So what it sounds like is that you are a union person, who is against volunteers, but where I volunteer<--------- except for a paid chief, there are no funds to do the career thing. Our department was fully paid until 1988, and the budget just couldnt handle the paid persons. But going from paid to volunteer can also better the department. In 1988, we had 2 1965 open cab engines. Now we have numerous equipment including a 90 Grumman 1250GPM 8 man cab, 99 LaFrance Heavy Rescue 6 man cab, 75 Mack Squrt 1500GPM, 4 ALS Medic units, and 24/7 coverage for a volunteer station which has 90 firefighters. All of which are medically trained., and all do run emergency lighting. Emergency lighting is a definate issue of safety, because you always have the select few who want to abuse the issue. But, this is where very strict SOP's fall into place, which should be followed if the need arised. And the Chief of the department should also make sure that the emergency lighting is registered with the State Police. And also, have all persons running the lighting understand the priorities of running emergency lighting and the dues that will be paid if they do not follow the SOP's. 1st offense = 90 suspension, 2nd offense = termination etc. If they can not follow the SOP's, they should not be a member of a proud VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT. So, KNOBMAN, just remember something, volunteers are just as fire ground smart and safe as a union company,<<<---- which we also assist with, and dont knock on a door that will knock back at you.

John Williams
NRFF1/EMT
Clairton Fire Department (South West PA

[FyredUp]

More of the same blah, blah, blah. Paid guy this, volly guy that. Blah, blah, blah.

You do it for a paycheck, you do it for a hobby, blah, blah, blah, You sit on your a** all day, you won't do duty hours at the station, blah, blah, blah.

As far as Knobman goes, he hasn't posted anything in over a week that I am aware of. So in that case the only ones keeping this alive are the vollies. As I have stated I am both a career and volly FF. Knobman angered me too with some of his thoughts. But if he isn't posting things and the battle won't die, who is keeping it alive? You vollies who can't let it go are. You are becoming an embarassment and perhaps are proving Knobman's point. Maybe he hit too close to home with some of you and that is why you keep this thing going.

The same stupid, even childish, argument of who is better serves no purpose. Yet we fight it over and over and over. How about we give it a rest and talk about something less controversial. How about what is better, fog or smoothbore nozzles?

Stay safe all.

[Truckie from Missouri]

SHHHHH!!!!

Better cool it folks, or the Firehouse.com Police will lock this thread too!

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Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

Stay safe.
Ken