Sooth Bore vs. Automatic Nzles

[lt mike]

My dept recently went from all auto TFT nozzles to a mix of autos plus smooth bores based upon a magazine article plus a very basic trial of the smooth bores. As a Training LT I have to come up with a training plan/outline on the proper use of the two nozzles. At a recent training event, I asked why the attack crew pulled an auto nozzle vs. the smooth bore in a structure fire evolution and I got a different answer from all three of the attack crew. HELP! I know there has to be a very good answer when to use either of these two nozzles, but my Operations Dept., who purchased these nozzles, can not give me an answer other than "Look it up on the web." I personally was trained only on the auto nozzle, and am very comfortable using it. However, if there is something better, I am open completely to it. I would greatly appreciate any feedback.

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[resqcapt]

My volunteer dept. recently added smooth bore nozzles to our 2 1/2" blitz lines. This allows us to flow much more gpm with a lot less nozzle reaction force. This is one of the advantages of the smooth bore. You will find the same advantages using a 7/8 or 15/16" tip with a 1 3/4" handline, more gpm with less nozzle reaction force. This is especially beneficial for our understaffed engine companies.

Before anyone else reading this gets their panties in an uproar I'm not saying smooth bore nozzles are the only way to go to achieve high gpm, we've found that this works for us and maybe it will help answer your question. Best thing to do is spend lots of time playing with them to find out what will work for you and what these nozzles are capable of doing.

Stay safe,

Steve

[jpm]

IF I WANTED TO MAKE STEAM I WILL TAKE A SHOWER!

IF I WANT TO PUT OUT A FIRE I WILL USE A SMOOTH BORE !

[MacGyver]

FDNY USES A 15/16 SMOOTH BORE TIP ON A BREAK-A-PART NOZZLE YOU GET 200 GPM AT 50 P.S.I. NOZZLE PRESSURE.

STANDPIPE OPERATION CALL FOR A SMOOTH BORE OR A LOW PRESSURE NOZZLE BECAUSE OF OUTLET
PRESSURE OF ONLY 65 P.S.I.
MOST AUTOMATIC NOZZLES NEED 100 P.S.I.

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[Tim Schaffner]

Give me a smoothbore on any fire!!!! Easy to use, less knob reaction, better flow, cheaper, bullet proof!!! Auto's are nice , but are far more complicated for crew and MPO. SAFETY!! you can't open up with a fog pattern inside with a "SMOOTHPIPE"... ...Want to kick some ass, take a pipe!!!!

[FFE3BFD]

They both have their place in the fire service but a smooth bore is the way to go for interior operations.
As far as differences, Big water at low pressures, nozzle reaction, deeper penatration, cost and less thermal balance disruption are in favor of the smooth bore. The versatility of an automatic is its greatest asset, foam capibilities, hydraulic ventilation and an adjustable stream to suit the situation. As stated in earlier post, you need to "play around" with both to see what is best for your Dept.


Mike


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~Smooth Bore For The Hard Core~



[This message has been edited by FFE3BFD (edited April 10, 1999).]

[F02]

Recent fire:The building was an old barn type structure coverted to a 2 car garage.One and a half story heavy timber construction.24by24 with a 10by20 addition on side B.Heavy fire load.One vehicle,assorted old doors windows etc. God knows what in the attic.On arrival (after a delayed alarm)the addition was gone,the rest was fully involved with heavy fire through the roof.First line on the fire was 13\4,125gpm combinatin nozzle pumped at 200psi. I know,it should have been at least 21\2 a rookie pulled it.After 1000gals of water had been applied in the open overhead door on a straight stream pattern, no knockdown was achieved.When a 3\4 fog was used the fire darkend down in seconds.I'm not saying smooth bores are bad.I'm just saying in this case the fog kicked ass.This was an exterior attack.No need to worry about steam.In fact, I think the large amount of steam did the job.Would I use fog on an interior attack? Not without GOOD ventilation. My point is with a combination nozzle it's there if you need it.

[ka]

As far as differences, Big water at low pressures,(THAT CAN BE ATTAINED WITH A LOW PRESSURE AUTOMATIC AS WELL) nozzle reaction(that can be attained with alow pressure automatic as well}, deeper penatration(NOZZLE PRESSURE DETERMINES PENETRATION, HIGHEST PRESSURE ALWAYS WINS, SO SB WOULD ALMOST ALWAYS LOSE.), cost and less thermal balance disruption(THAT IS A FUNCTION OF NOZZLE PATTERN, STRAIGHT STREAM VERSUS A SB IS THE SAME NO DISRUPTION are in favor of the smooth bore"

[Tillerman]

In my 10 years in the fire service I have had the opportunity to use all types of nozzles and in that time I have found that for great knock down power the Smooth Bore Nozzle is great. Used in the hands of a Trained firefighter the smooth bore is easier to manage due to less nozzle reaction, and allows for more water where you need it(on the fire not in the air).

I am not saying that the automatic nozzles are bad, cause we use them.....But we have a break away tip thus allowing us the option for a smooth bore. And more often than not the smooth bores are being used. Also as one of the posters put up earlier using standpipe operations, it is a must to have them because of the preasure you may recieve at the connection. Using an Automatic nozzle with 60 psi Usually does not work as effectively as a smooth bore at the same psi.

FO2 please remember what you said in your post "the line was pulled by a rookie". If the line was pulled by a rookie then was he operating that line?? and if so do you think that he was not trained well enough with the use of smooth bores?? This may have scewed your results a little bit. I am not sure just a thought.

Glad to see you have purchased some smooth bore nozzles lt Mike and good luck with them. please keep in mind the line is only as good as the man operating it. Be safe all and good luck!!


Tillerman

[Firehose]

No body and I mean NOBODY in this area uses smoothbores. Our department would like to try them but have no one here to look to. How does an interior attack differ with a smoothbore? What about flashovers(wideangle protection pattern)? What tip? 15/16?

Thanks for your help!

[Halligan84]

The knock down power of either nozzle is the same if they are flowing the same gpm and in the same pattern. The only drawback to the auto as I see it is the constant reinforcement that you can gate the stream to what you need (ie= what is comfortable) When we adjusted our pump pressures so that 1 3/4 attack lines would flow 185 GPM our members could not/would not leave the nozzles completely open, the stream looked fine, they were happy, but we knew we weren't getting the flow we wanted. Utilizing a smoothbore for the initial attack lines has allowed us to get the 185 gpm with less nozzle reaction and greater acceptance because there is no gating it back and maintaining the stream. As far as flashover protection, I think that is overstated. "Protection" will come in the form of killing the flashover which is done by getting as much water to the ceiling as possible and any nozzle is capable of that. The only "protection" from a fog tip I have seen is advancing on a flammable gas fire in an attempt to isolate the gas supply prior to extinguishing the fire.

[Driver Only]

This is for EVERYONE except "ka" (EB?)
I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
THE PIPE KICKS BUTT!!!!

[K A]

halligan

"our members could not/would not leave the nozzles completely open"

Do you think it is a Y2K thing, or something the automatic nozzle guys have built into the nozzles to allow fires to get bigger? Sounds suspicious to me.

You are right, if your members can't be taught then they should use a nozzle withotout a shutoff or maybe find another career field.

An automatic with 50 psi tip pressure will give you everything a smooth bore can do and all the flexibility of a combination

[This message has been edited by K A (edited May 10, 1999).]

[LT trk106]

A fog pattern for protection from flashover is a MYTH. Have you ever opened up with a fog inside a structure? We carry both smooth bore a nd automatics on our rigs, and if any of my guys(or gals) opens up with a fog inside a struture when we are making an interior attack I will kick them right in the butt.The ONLY thing it will do is steam you like a lobster.If your dept. is doing aggresive inside attacks then a fog is NOT the pattern of choice. What about the victoms if any, what will that steam do to them? Not to mention yourselfs.Where is that fog pushing the fire too? A straight stream or smooth bore puts the most water on the seat of the fire the fastest. Thats what its all about , put out that fire. We teach our firefighters to ALWAYS open the nozzle before entry to bleed air and to check the pattern. It had better be in straight stream.Fog streams have their place on the fire ground , or there would not be so many in use today, but the inside of a burning structure is NOT the place.

LT.

[jpm]

LT.

YOUR THE MAN

[K A]

>A fog pattern for protection from flashover is a MYTH. >

I guess the videos we see from the swiss and the fashover simulators of a few sprays of water into the overhead is a myth? Gee no steam etiher. Go back to the 1960's movie the nozzleman or coordinated fire attack and relearn what you are doing, over applicationis the problem not the nozzle.

I guess when we stand behind a fog pattern and the heat from a propane fire simuulator doesn't pass through is a myth too. I guess the 10,000 cu ft of air moved by the stream is a myth too? In a flash over the laws of physics change?

So why is it a myth? You know the NBS uses them to put out their flashover simulator duringtesting, takes almost 20 gallons of water. I wonder why they don't use a smoothbore? Maybe because they are scientists?

<Have you ever opened up with a fog inside a structure?>

Yes, like 95% of the fire service does everyday.

<We carry both smooth bore a nd automatics on our rigs,>

Can't make up your mind eh?

< and if any of my guys(or gals) opens up with a fog inside a struture when we are making an interior attack I will kick them right in the butt.>

Is that the best way to communicate? Wow assault? Isn't that against the law? You actually kick them? That fog nozzle doesn't have a straight stream position? Why do you let them take it in the building? Why don't you beat them up at the station instead of doing it in public?

<The ONLY thing it will do is steam you like a lobster.>

So you can't push the fire from the room? It won't vent the room? What do you tell the 95% of the world that puts out fires without lobsters every single day?

<Where is that fog pushing the fire too?>

Oh I understand. First vent, 2nd apply water. I see you don't know you vent first no wonder you are in the lobster business.

[LT trk106]

My word KA you seem to be angry at me. How come? You sure do spout the figures well. But I must say that I still disagree with opening up with a fog pattern inside. You brought up the Swiss method of flashover training. What they call a flashover is what I, and a whole lot of other firefighters have been calling a rollover for a long time. Look up in your books , you might find that a flashover in this country is when the entire room flashs at once, not just the ceiling. Id like to see the fog pattern that will "protect" you from that.If its just the ceiling rolling over, their have been studies done that suggest that if you put a small amount of water on the seat of the fire where the hot gases are being produced , it will kill the "rollover" that is going on above your head. Putting water on smoke will do nothing to help your cause.Ive used the direct method plenty of times to see that it is not just some T.V. show or video, it really works well. And I , or my crew dont get steamed.Yes it does happen in a real fire, when you put water on fire it turns to steam. When done with a good crew , you dont get the water damage you reffered to above.We dont put more water on the fire than we have to.Our dept. is small, only 12 full-time FF.s, and our citys water mains are over 100yrs old, so we have supply problems like the rural depts doWe run with four men on duty in the whole city so we dont waste water.And as far as kicking in the butt, that, my freind is a figure of speach, not ABUSE. I would not have been around as long as I have if I used such tatics ANYWHERE in our dept.Before you get angry at me again , just remember that we are ALL on the same team, just different veiws.

LT.

[Halligan84]

K.A... do you get a commission off of automatics? Lighten up.. all I'm doing is stating my observations on autos from my own departments and when I work the burn building at the fire academy. Too many people under pump them or keep them gated back for comfort and think they are getting a good flow. Just to be clear.. there is NOTHING wrong with an automatic nozzle when used correctly.

[resqcapt]

Well like everyone else out there, I've been reading ka's poison pen and just blowing it off. I must take exception to one thing however.

I recently returned from experiencing the "can" @ FDIC. You know ka, the one designed by the Swiss. You are correct that the instructors use a fog nozzle to "pencil" the superheated air at the ceiling to cool the atmosphere. What you didn't state, or I misunderstood, was the fact that the nozzles were used in a straight stream pattern, not a fog. That is why there is no steam!

I must agree with LT trk106. If any of my people use a fog stream instead of a straight stream on our fog nozzles inside a structure, we will have a career counseling session when we return. Even with proper ventilation (how many times does this happen in the "real" world?) using a fog stream is likely to reduce visibility, cause burns to trapped occupants or even firefighters.

I agree there is a place for fog nozzles in the fire service. We have them on all attack lines on our rigs. These nozzles are the break apart type for when the crew decides the situation calls for a smooth bore. (We generally use SB when using blitz lines.)

What it boils down to ka, is personal choice. It's obvious you don't like SB nozzles, so don't use them. Those of us that do and have used them effectively many, many times, will continue to do so no matter what you think or write.

Everybody stay safe and keep on training.

Steve.

[LT trk106]

Thanks brothers. I thought it might have been me. To clear up a point with anyone who might be interested, all of our attack lines are autos.They are break-apart also with a slug tip behind the auto. Stay safe.

LT.

[jpm]

i just want to add one more thought if i may.up here in the boonies we draft water from lakes,ponds,streams,and even puddles.tank water is never pretty ! what happens to those autos when a couple of pebbles, leafs, or sticks get stuck in them.
flush you say in the middle of a stucture fire. no thanks.
smooth bore for the hard core!
LT. YOUR STILL THE MAN

[LT trk106]

Thanks jpm.

LT.

[Flowpressure]

IMHO nothing beats a smooth bore for pure knockdown power. Water puts it out and the smooth bore gives you that water

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Stay in the House

[tydon]

Sorry Straight bore dudes, although I agree that for some interior attacks a straight stream is the answer, there are times where an adjustable nozzle is desirable.

I had my dept. outfitted with AKRON variable gallonage adjustable nozzles, and I truely like them.
Left for life is what I tell my guys, right to fight!
When fighting roll over situations nothing works better than a 30 degree fog pattern in 1 second bursts. I had one fire fighter throw a straight stream into a roll over fire and we could not see the door 10 feet behind us and the thermal layer dropped right on top of us so all we could do was lay on our bellies until the thermal layer regained it's composure and we could trow a straight stream at the base and back out.
Ideally I tell my guys to controll the fire by using a semi fog into the ceiling and kicking the rollover back to the seat of the fire, cool the ceiling and search the building using the light of the fire to help you locate the victims.

Short bursts into the rollover will keep you from feeling the heat, if you get to it that late!

Guys, all I can say to any fire fighter is PLEASE KEEP AN OPEN MIND! There is a time and a place for every inovation, just keep the inovations coming, makes our job easier!
God bless those who we try to help, and those we try to instruct,

[Halligan84]

I'm not sure that the short bursts of fog are exactly what I am looking for. I think that the use of fog in those situations is much more prone to creating steam which will cause the loss of all visibility and if it is hot enough may cause the crew to bail all together. I have never really understood the idea of short bursts into a rollover condition either, If things are that bad and I have 185 gpm at my finger tips, my experience says PUT THE FIRE OUT. I have seen many things discussed with regard to controlling rollover/flashover, the "protection" of a fog stream and many other theories. I still think the bottom line is to make the fire go away. In my opinion that would be with a fog tip adjusted to the straight stream position or a smoothbore.

Just one question for Tydon, in what situations is the "left for life" approach used and which are the "right for fight"? Thanks

[mfgentili]

I like the idea of smooth bores even though all of the nozzles on my department's small attack lines are automatic or adjustable fog. We use solid tips on big lines and many times on Master Streams. Currently looking to replace all fog nozzles in hi-rise packs with 15/16" break-aparts (best of both worlds I guess). With proper nozzle pressures, stream selection, and water application techniques either style nozzle should work well. I find the biggest problem in our department is improper pressure during interior attack. The key to operating efficiently with any attack line is to practice repeatedly. So train, train, train until it becomes automatic (no pun intended). Proper water application may someday save your life or the life of others relying on you. Best wishes to all out there. I really enjoy reading your opinions.

[BFD 210]

Just my opinion on the "protection" myth of the fog nozzle.

I have been taught my entire career that if you get into trouble you use left for life. Until recently I assumed this as the truth until I began to experiment and understand the difference between fog and smooth bore nozzles. I always was taught that the smooth bore was only for the big jobs and when you had to stand in the street to put the wet stuff on the fire. The fact is that when you find yourself in an atmosphere where you believe that it is time to use the "left for life" you need the smooth bore more than ever. If for nothing else than firefighter safety.

Think about the reach that you have with a 90 degree fog pattern, maybe 5 feet. Well at 5 feet above you what is the temperature in a pre flashover room, probably 800 to 1200 degrees. Granted this is in a room which you wouldnt want to be in. Well what happens to the little particles of water that you are attempting to put into the ceiling. They all turn to steam at a higher rate than at 212 degrees not reaching the target, the ceiling. This steam does nothing to prevent a flashover. The real solution is the 180 gpm of a straight and smooth stream which not only reaches the ceiling but also cools the ceiling.

Sure the fog nozzle gives you protection on flammable liquid/gas fires but this is where you don't mind all of the effects of the entrained air pushing the fire, that is what you want it to do.

There is a place for all nozzles but i believe we should make sure that we are using them in the right places.

Just my thoughts

[Bobaff]

I am a strong believer in variety. I know (not believe) that there are advantages and disadvantages to everything in life and it isn't any different with firefighting. Every situation isn't alike, and you cannot always predict what will happen (if so this job would be as boring as any other, hehehe)

Smooth bores have the advantages of low psi and small nozzle reaction. Fogs have the advantages of changing your pattern and conserving water better (depending on who is on the nozzle). Bore disses are no pattern change and high gpm ( not always a disadvantage unless you wanna save water damage). Fogs make you use 100 psi and don't have that true straight stream.

As for flashovers, well I was taught that the last technique is to hit the ceiling with a straight stream which will lower the room temp and then hit the big red.

Just my input though, I'm not as experienced as some of you other guys, still pretty new only been in 5 years.

[Ickymow]

First I would like to say that this must be a subject that has some strong oppinions behind it. As has been stated we are all in this to help and to get the same job done with out getting ourselves hurt. We all have diffrent ways of doing our jobs. Over the 20 years I have been doing this I will say I have seen many things change and then go back, then change again. We will always have new things come along that will some times force us to look at things diffrently. This may well be one of those things. I know that I have always been trained to use a TFT automatic in both of the departments I have been in. In fact most if not all the departments in this area use them. It wasn't till about 3 years ago we bought our first smoth bore for hand lines. It isn't preconnected yet but we do have them. Some departments around us (and some of them see much more fire then us) still don't have them. I know I have been in some heavy fire situations and the automatic has worked fine for me. I am willing to use a smoth bore but ONLY after I practice with it. I have played with it some but not enought to feel comfortable taking it in with me yet. I can tell you that I like my automatic and it might be some time before the smoth bore takes its place, but I am willing to give it a try. I do agree that tha smoth bore will throw much more water and will penitrate deeper, but I haven't been in a fire yet where I needed to rip or blast any thing apart like that. I have seen a smoth bore blow holes in sheet rock and make a mess out of a room, but I know I have done that with my auto on straight stream. I think as long as we are open minded and we are willing to look at other options then we will be able to be more versitile and will acomplish our task a little better, and with less effort. This form is great and can help us to bring new ideas back to our departments if we are only willing to try. I know it is hard to some times feel that way. I have been there and I have felt real strong about some thing only to find out there was another way down the road. We receptive and open. listen to other ideas and be willing to try new things. Don't become stagnit in the old ways only because that was the way you did it for years and years and no one is going to get you to change. This buissness is always changing and we have to chande with it.
Thanks and stay safe

[Halligan84]

Water damage is solely a function of how the nozzle is operated. I have seen smooth bore attacks (and high flow automatics) with virtually no water damage. If you are flowing a high quantity of water through any nozzle, you will achieve extinguishment quicker, thus limiting fire and water damage. High flows for shorter periods are better than lower flows for longer periods every day of the week. How much water are we talking about too? If you bring the living room ceiling down extinguishing a mattress upstairs, thats excessive, but if you have a room or more burn out, water damage is the least of the property owner's problem.

[STBURNE]

BFD210 RIGHT ON!

A common misconception is that an automatic flowing 180 gpm and a smooth bore flowing 180 gpm give you the same results if the auto is used in the straight stream position.

This is incorrect! All fog nozzles still have entrained air, so the effects on the atmosphere and how it relates to the safety of firefighters and victims is still drastic.

Also, as stated by the late William Clark, a fog nozzle may be flowing 180 gpm out of the tip, but 180 gpm is not hitting the target!

Think about a garden hose over a swimming pool, in the solid position (with no nozzle attached) all of the water hits the pool in one spot. If you place your thumb over the nozzle (fog position) water drops on the ground enroute to the target, losing precious gpm's!

[K A]

>This is incorrect! All fog nozzles still have entrained air, so the effects on the atmosphere and how it relates to the safety of firefighters and victims is still drastic."

Oh really? How much air? You can't makea ribbon hanging from a swing set move with either nozzle so what is the drastic effect?

"Also, as stated by the late William Clark, a fog nozzle may be flowing 180 gpm out of the tip, but 180 gpm is not hitting the target!"

The books all say 9/10 through a target, both nozzles will do it at 60 feet. The fog just does it 200% further that includes straight up.

"Think about a garden hose over a swimming pool, in the solid position (with no nozzle attached) all of the water hits the pool in one spot. If you place your thumb over the nozzle (fog position) water drops on the ground enroute to the target, losing precious gpm's!"

The comparison is not relative. YOu are comparing an open but versus a thumb which is a nozzle of course you lose flow and gain reach. Now add for nozzle pressure and the flow stays the same, next example please.

Why not compare the fact both put out fires? Fogs out number smooth bores in the fire service by 10,000 to 1.

[LT trk106]

I'm sorry ka, but I dont understand your ribbon on the swingset thing.If your trying to tell me that a fog nozzle will not move the ribbon , than your doing something wrong. A fog stream moves a LOT of air. In straight or fog pattern. For example, firefighters have been using a fog stream to vent smoke from buildings for a long time.Ever try to vent one with a smooth bore?It takes a whole lot longer, but can be done.A smooth bore simply does not move the large amounts of air that a automatic does,. I;'m not knocking autos, heck we have them on our attack lines, but we also carry smooth bores too. They will both put out fire. But sometimes one will do a better job than the other. Inside a burning structure give me a smooth bore or straight stream ANYDAY over the fog.But that just one LT's veiw.Keep it safe. LT.

[K A]

"A fog stream moves a LOT of air. In straight...pattern. "

So if it moves so much air in straight stream and that is what we are talking about not fog(you fail to define a "LOT" though) why does the operator need to switch to fog from SS to vent the room?

"A smooth bore simply does not move the large amounts of air that a automatic does,"

"large amount", in the SS position? So a smooth bore versus a combo nozzle in the SS position which will move more air? How much more, will you vent a room with either in the SS position?

"But sometimes one will do a better job than the other."

How much better? 2 seconds? 10" 30? Half the water? 1/20th? With both in the SS position what is the difference other than the combo outreaching the smooth bore?

As far as the ribbon, hang one, put a combo in SS and see if any air is being moved to hold the ribbon out straight. I can't make it happen, it must be all the air it doesn't move, works fine in fog though.

[LT trk106]

KA I must be dumb, but I still make no sense out of your posts. And frankly I'm not going to try anymore.You dont seem willing to except that theres more than one way to do things.If you read these posts you will see that most of us agree that a fog pattern is a useful tool in the fire service. But we also know that there are limits , as with all of our tools , on the right places to use them.I really hope you dont have to learn the hard way what can happen on a real fire were someone could get hurt or killed. When you make your first fire, write me back and let me know how it went.Goodbye KA .
LT.

[BFD 210]

In response to the reach of the smooth bore nozzle versus the fog nozzle here is what the manufacturer <Akron> has to say about what their nozzles will do.

The fog at 100 psi flowing 175 gpm will reach 150 feet overall with an effective reach of 127 feet. This is Akron's mid range Akromatic.

The smooth bore nozzle at 50 psi flowing 7 gallons more at 182 gpm has an overall reach of 162 feet with an efffective reach of 142 feet. This is the 15/16 inch tip.

I bet you could flow this straight up too.

Also take your fog nozzle into the next acquired structure of burn building. Light a fire and use a direct attack with the fog then relight and do the same with the smooth bore and then tell me there is no entrained air in your fog nozzle.

[e33]

Use mostly combo automatics here. Dont use them in fog mode for fire attack. Thats why they have a setting for a straight stream. Why argue about something which is not proving any new points? Do what works.

[resqcapt]

LTtrk106

Once again I completely agree with you. It's scary how much we think alike! Like others have stated there is nothing on the market that can do everything well. Salesman have been pushing that snakeoil for too long. Remember, use the right tool for the job, be it a fog nozzle, smooth-bore, blitz-line or booster.

Steve.

[K A]

BFD 210

Any chance your source is trying to sell something? Funny all of there charts reach further than the oher guys. Must be physics. Or is it mine reaches further than yours, look at my chart, see? Not exactly the ideal of asking the fox if the chickens are in danger.

Also note in the source you quote that:

200 gpm from a combination nozzle goes 127'to 185' depending on which of the 10 nozzles we are comparing. The other guy lists 101 to 130 feet. I bet somewhere in the middle is closer to reality. Oh, the hydraulic book don't support 160 foot reach from a smooth bore at 50 psi they say 90 feet max. How do we gain 70 feet. Are today's smooth little stubby smooth bores better than the old days 4 foot smoothbore underwiters playpipes? I doubt it, UL set the flow formula based upon 50 psi. Going out side shows the book (UL) is closer to reality. The highest nozzle pressure always goes further.

[webteam]

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