Is It Just Luck That Keeps Me Alive At Fires?

[e33]

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[This message has been edited by e33 (edited December 08, 1999).]

[Scott Clark]

Your not alone my friend. This is common problem just about everywhere. You were right when you expressed your point about the lack of accountability. That is the number one problem as far as I'm concerned. Many organizations and their officer's have gotten bye by the seat of their pants for so long, they truly don't know any other way. It is a terrible time warp we're stuck in. I like how you described the obvious signs of lack of education and experience. It just doesn't seem to end does it? The truth is, it could stop! Setting REALISTIC STANDARDS OF ACCOUNTABILITY for all officers would be a great start. Firefighters are held accountable for training, meetings and responding. They are also accountable for their ACTIONS. But have you ever noticed that officers are given some level of immunity? Usually the higher the level the higher the freedom from accountability. Do you think I just made an officer mad? Probably! Todays fire service needs leaders. People who will give of their selves for the betterment of their fire department and their communities. But e33 don't despair, when these individuals you have spoken of completely destroy the volunteer system, then they will only have themselves to blame. I also believe that most departments are closer to the end than they realize or want to admit!

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If we stand united.... We will never fall.

[Tom Lafleur]

I will pray for you e33

[Hollywood]

You recognize the problems. Now institute change thru example.
May the force be with you!

[Capt. Skippy]

e33 - Hang in there. As Scott Clark stated in his reply, this problem is wide spread in the volunteer service. But take heart, those of us who reconize the problems are the ones who must lead the way to change. This is not a popular or easy road. In fact you will find many who are mad at you for even suggesting change. They may attempt to sabotage your efforts. To combat this, you must realize that change will take place slowly. Make a difference in any way that you can. It is amazing how a chief officer will introduce a new idea if it is his. The trick is getting him to think that your idea or suggestion was his! Seek out those around you who feel the same way that you do and use one another for support. It can be a long and disappointing road without support. Also remember to never blindly follow those orders that may get you killed. We are firefighters, not deadfighters! If none of this gives you hope, I've been down this very same road over the last nine years. But percistance is paying off and change has beening taking place, just not as quickly as I would have liked. In time, those of the old school leave, retire or die. Just try and make sure that the newbies who come along don't fall under the influence of these "good ol' boys" and continue the disease!

Keep the faith!:-)

[Christian Ulrich]

E33, You are not alone. You have already received excellent advice from several others. I am both a paid ff, and a volunteer. Been doing the volunteer thing since 1984, just became paid two and half years ago. Several years ago in one of the ff mags an editorial was written about "whatever happened to the professional ff?" The writer was comparing the current trend of calling paid/full time ff's "career" fifefighters. When a just a few years back, they were called "professional firefighters". He lamented the shift. There is a difference between being paid for a job, and being professional. So, my advice to you is simple, keep in mind the concept that as a volunteer the best thing you can do for your own safety, and the safety of your ff brethren is to think professionally. Little by little others will get the point. It is disheartening to have people on volunteer departments who are in it for the excitement or some other none service minded reason. But, like one of other responders mentioned, you will know who is likeminded with you. ON the fireground or ems scene, those are who you can really count on. Keep a good atttitude, especially towards the "rescue Rickies". Win them over to your "professionalism". Maybe you will save their life, or someone elses by doing so! Lastly, now that I am a paid "professional", I am trying to become aware of federal and state level governmental attitudes/actions concerning the fire service. As I get to "know" the people who are for and against us, I am better able to know where to focus my energies in terms of putting my two cents in for the betterment of the fire service. I have been to FDIC, IAFC, JEMS national conferences. These are expensive, but very professional places to be. I have noticed that some of the instructors are volunteer people. This says a lot for having the professional attitude even as a volunteer. If a person can be called upon to influence his and her "paid" peers, they certainly must have something worthwhile to say. Which means they can back it up with authenticated actions. Wow, I am really rolling, and just wanted this to be a quick note of encouragement. Change happens, sometimes the timing doesn't quite fit into our scheme of things. So, the part we can contribute to is "what" changes sometimes more than when. And, like was already said, if you can make an idea of yours become something the chief came up with, that is the key to it all! (And millions and millions of dollars are spent every year by business people attending seminars on how to accomplish this, so it tells ya it is not easy. But that is the way it happens. Tie in your ideas with what the chief is already saying is an issue for him. Also, how you say something sets up how you are received. If you say, "I was thinking....", well, the focus is on you. However, if you say, "Chief, I know you've already thought of this, so I'mm wondering what you think about ...." He gets to give you his opinion. Keep asking his "opinion" on what is your idea or issue, he will soon start thinking about how "good" his opinion is. Enough, enough. Keep the smoke out of your nose. Christian Ulrich

[SMOKEYSAM]

Have no fear my friend, I hear that they are going to enact a law to solve all of our problems. Now that OSHA has 2 in 2 out rule, no firefighter will ever get hurt again. See how easy that was, a law can solve everything.
But serious, hang in there you are not alone and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (oh crap, it's a train) STAY SAFE AND STAY POSITIV.

[tydon]

e33,

Hi, I know what you are going through, it seems like yesterday that I was going through the same thing that you are going through now.

I was after my employer to get better training, and due to that I got them to agree to build a live fire training facility. Seven years in the making but I definitly feel I have more than just a "coffee club".

As always, keep the faith, keep on learning, and NEVER GIVE UP!

Tydon

[This message has been edited by tydon (edited May 12, 1999).]

[Scoco]

You are not alone. I'm in a 30 man volunteer dept, there is no mandatory training, officers don't lead, non compliant scbas, old bunker gear, no disciplinary action against drunk firefighters going on a call. There are 4-5 of us who take care of equipment, everybody else will drop it & walk away. We have a district trustee who used to be fire chief in the 60s, he thinks scbas are a ripoff & unnecessary, & only recently started thinking that we should wear bunker gear at fires, it doesn't matter that we don't have enough to go around. This trustee is more concerned about getting a chrome grill on our new truck, than the safety of the firefighters. Of course, no one does anything as well as when he was chief. Thank God he is going to retire next year. The point is, people will take their attitude from the the top level of the dept and unfortunately, it takes a lot of time to change. In our case, a few of us WILL change this dept for the better.

[BVFD]

Good luck Scoco. It will take a lot of work and time, but if you really work at it, you will bring it around.

[UPNOVER1]

Did I write that.Wow, that sounds like you run in my company E33,please let me know if you make progress from the advice given.

Got your back!

[FSRIZZIO]

DAMN THE TORPEDOES-- FULL STEAM AHEAD!

[fyrescue]

E33,

Been there, done that! And I'm sure will do it again. Anyone who says they never had the same concerns or issues are just kidding them selves. What you describe is exactly what went on when I joined in the early 80's, they voted you in at a monthly meeting, gave you your gear and SHAZAMM!you were a firefighter. Come election time you got elected chief if you could get enough of your friends to vote for you instead of the other guy.
Since that time we began by first developing written SOP's, so we didn't have to remember how the last chief wanted it done, and developed a mandatory training requirement, thanks OSHA. As we started to look at how we did things, we looked at who did things and why they were qualified to be officers. So our next step was development of minimum requirements for line officers, from the Chief down to the Lt's, based on years of experience, training, and certification.
With this in place we have a better quality of leadership based on knowledge and experience, not just popularity. (unfortunately the popular vote is still the last factor in the process, and in the volunteer sector....will always be there).
Do we still face the same concerns now? Yes, but we are better prepared than we were 10-15 years ago. This is why as training officer for my department I promote continued education throughout the f/f's career with us, not just the minimum to stay in the department. Keep up the fight!

Mike

[Nik]

wow, after reading these replies, I am *doubly* glad to be with the department I'm with. We have strict SOP's, you can only miss so many truck checks, trainings, business meetings before you're politely told to get on the ball or get out. Each new member's application has to be reviewed by a committee. You can't even drive E-1 unless you have passed a driving test with the chief and can run the pump by yourself.

With such strict measures in place, I feel safe.

good luck, stay safe,
Nik

[firewalker]

E33...I am with you. Have many of the same problems that face you. It is disheartening. I too think this is why we face recruitment and retention problems in VFD's. I haven't a clue other than what many others have stated. I too am looking for ideas. Good ole boys reign supreme around here and there are not enough people who are interested in volunteering to be able to tell someone to take a hike. <Grin> At least that is what the Officers think anyway....Have to maintain so many for ISO standards. Can't make anyone mad. They are more worried about staying in power than keeping you safe. I am staying and working through this as you should.
Mike

[Jeff801]

My battlecry has always been "God watches out for fools and firefighters...because he usually can't tell them apart". Like when a rookie turns on his $2.00 flashlight just as the Capt. realizes he is above LEL. When the only hydrant you can use has a piece of 2x4 wedged in the steamer only to find out the fire in the warehouse is reactive to water. When your pumper gets a flat tire a mile away from the burning pickup truck that BLEVES a 55 gallon drum of gasoline just as you call for a 2nd pumper. I don't know why, but God must have a sense of humor because it can't be luck...It has to be Divine Intervention. (Lord protect us from ourselves...Amen)

[S. Cook]

E33,

As you can tell you're not alone in your woes. In the past we had some problems similar to the ones you outline, but all it takes is one or two progressive folks to get the ball rolling.

Not that things were bad before, but we've really made some tremendous progress in the last five years and it's paying off. We still have some folks that are resistant to change sometimes for fun, sometimes because they don't like change, depends on the day and the change.

But I really knew we were doing the right thing when one of the old timers came up to me and told me that he appreciates our efforts, likes the direction the department is going and although he can't fight fire anymore he's willing to do anything he can do to help (politic, etc...).

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited July 13, 1999).]

[DD]

E33

Good luck from this old timer. Keep pushing
and try to make things right.

Please always remember that integrity is the number one thing that will help you along. The lack of it will lead to disaster within any organization.

I also agree with Smokeysam that big brother thinks he can protect us with laws. We know that we have to protect each other and ourselves.

[mifr50]

Get out of there !! Do not allow incompetent fools to put you at risk. Apply the risk/benefit factor to your situation and you will realize, the longer you allow yourself to be placed in these situations the sooner your luck will run out. Bail, find another Department. The above advice of work hard and hang in there is admirable, but your safety is #1.