March Fire Scenario...A car fire my foot

[Dalmation90]

Beep Beep Beep

You're responding to a reported car fire 1313 Mockingbird Lane...Dispatch clear 10:00hrs 01 March 1999...

Arriving on scene, the Lieutenant's first thoughts is that it would have been nice if the dispatch center had asked the caller if the car was outside or not...He procedes to give his size-up:

"Engine 1 Dispatch, On Scene, working structure fire. We have a fully involved garage fire attached to a two story wood frame colonial style house. We have smoke showing from the eaves of the house. Request a full structure fire assignment be started."

Ok, Lieutenant, you now have your crew on the Engine, it's water, and it's hoses to deal with the situation in front of you. Since it came in as a car fire, your apparatus was the only one responding, so there is going to be an extra delay before additional companies arrive...

What are your immediate actions?

How much water are you carrying? How many men do you have, on your truck and/or volunteers responding in their cars to the scene? In your district, would you typically be able to lay a line to a hydrant, or will it all be off tank water? What size lines? Can you conduct a search of the house? Ventilation? You have a lot of fire to keep out of the house, and only a small crew to do it with.

Have fun...stay safe,
Matt

[KenNFD]

Matt:

Like the saying goes, "been there, done that, got the t-shirt"

First tactic is to get a line between the garage and the house. 1 3/4" should do. I worked on a 2FF engine for 12 years, have a 3 man company now. With a small company, the 1 3/4 will be in place and flowing a decent GPM a lot faster than the 2 1/2".

Water supply could be a problem. I'd wrap the hydrant and lay in if I saw heavy fire on arrival.

This is where the 1 3/4" and a 200 GPM nozzle pays off. You may be lucky and get a quick knock down, or at least contain the fire until the other units arrive. 500 gallons does not go too far in this situation.

This is one of those situations that starts off bad and will probably not get much better. The amount of extension to the house would be a determining factor on initial search.

The line into the front door protects the main avenue of fire spread-the doorway to the garage. This should buy us some time and protect a main route of egress.

A primary search of the house will need to be done ASAP. If I arrived with my 3 man crew and knew or was told that there was a person inside the house, I'd leave the line and go for the grab. The line would be pulled inside the door and charged. At the least, the driver could standby at the line and protect the inside stairs. Two of us would then go search for the person(s).

Ventilation would be tricky. Horizontal ventilation if searching the second floor without a line working below would draw the fire to our location. Not a good thing. Vertical vent is out of the question right now. PPV would help if we are just operating a line from inside the house.

After the fire, I would have a serious heart to heart talk with the dispatcher about the importance of asking questions like is the car inside or outside and if inside, is the garage attached.

------------------
Ken Hanks
Captain Naugatuck FD,CT
Instructor,CT Fire Academy

[Dalmation90]

Hmmm...not a lot of response this month! Kinda like the response to this daytime fire :-)

Well, here goes mine:
Arriving is the Lt. and 3 Firefighters on the Engine-Tank (1500gpm pump, 1200gallon H20). First priority is life-safety considerations of course...checking with the homeowner on the front lawn, everyone's out.
Ok, we got a lot of heat and no water till the next truck gets here -- probably a good 8 minutes in our area during the day.
Here's the game plan folks:
Stretch the 2.5" blitz line. Make a circle on the ground with it and sit on it -- use it as a master stream to knock the heavy fire down. Set it to 350gpm for 90 seconds -- that'll use 500 gallons. Get in as close as you safely can with it, to maximize the effectiveness.
While one firefighter is left at the 2.5", and the pump operator is charging the blitz line, the other firefighter will stretch an 1.75" line to the kitchen door where the garage meets the house. The pump op will charge the 1st 1.75"
The Lt. is going to go to force entry, and if it appears safe, conduct a very quick primary search to check for extension and get the layout of the house.
Once the initial 90 second blitz is up, go to the kitchen door and feed hose into the FF and Lt. who are cutting off any extension found. It's OK if there is still some fire in the garage...we just want to knock down most of it. The rest of the fire we'll take care of when more trucks arrive. Till the we have 700 gallons left, to use over the next 6 minutes. If we use it somewhat sparingly, we can afford to flow 125gpm. That should be enough to save the house -- it just mean we only spray at red stuff, not randomly into smoke to conserve the water.
Pump operator is going to lay out 2.5" tank fill line so as soon as the next Engine-Tank arrives it can start to dump it's load.
Pump Op has command while the Lt. is inside until we get an officer or senior firefighter on scene to relieve him. Lt. tells the Pump Op the next priorities for arriving personnel in POVs -- pack up, open up the doors on the first floor, stretch a 1.75" backup line, and get a 1.5" and piercing nozzle to the second floor to handle extension in the attic. Also get a "truck" team together with halligans and pike poles to help open walls

Matt
Ok...why did it take over two months for someone to tell me it's spelled dalmatiAn?

[LT trk106]

I sure hope the door between kitchen and garage is still closed when you open up that 21/2" line into the garage from the outside. The officer should do a quick size-up inside the front door atleast , before you commit to any outside attack.Just a thought.

[Dalmation90]

Awe come 'on...how fun is it to make sure the door is closed first ;-)

Yeah...I shudda stated that in my response!
Matt

[LT trk106]

Well D-90 , I'm glad it was just left out on accident, you had me worried for minute.
LT.

[This message has been edited by LT trk106 (edited March 06, 1999).]

[firemanhank]

You know.... I hate to bring up an old argument but....this is one time you paid guys wouldnt laugh at us all-volunteer-departments showing up with 15 guys and four trucks to a car fire!!! No bad feelings intended, just a chuckle!!!

[Dalmation90]

Yep...at the risk of bringing up an even more controversial aspect...it's one reason I don't mind volunteers (including me) responding directly to the scene in their own cars...tools are fine, but manpower is what is needed the most!
Matt

[LT trk106]

I work in a small combo dept. 13 paid and 9 reserves, and I am always happy to see my extra help show up.


LT.

[This message has been edited by LT trk106 (edited March 31, 1999).]

[Dalmation90]

LT Trk106:
My sympathies! 22 people total...eeesh. I am fortunate to belong to a relatively large department with good mutual aid...I read in some of your other posts about not being able to start mutual aid to you confirm fire, etc., and that must have a dramatic effect on your firefighting tactics!

Our standard first alarm for reported structure fires consists of three fire departments. Typically, this will bring 4 Engine Tanks, 3 Engines/Hose
Tenders, 1 Ladder, 3 Rescues, 1 service truck with CAFS capability, and an
Ambulance. This gives us 6500 gallons of rolling water; tanker shuttle
capacity of 360 gallons per minute/mile (i.e. 360gpm one mile from water
source, 180gpm two miles from water, etc); 9500' of 5" hose, and 3400' of 4"
hose. Staffing would be around 25-30 during the day, and over 60
nights/weekends.

With this much coming, you know within 10 minutes of arriving, the calvary will coming in over the hill.

Oh well, just a different world!
Matt

[LT trk106]

D-90, what a really different world, 25-30 during the day would empty all three paid dept. surounding us and still be about 15 short. In jan. I had a highrise retirement home fire on the 7th floor. One unit fully invovled, smoke banked down to the floor in the hallway , and 12 people still on the fire floor. Just to make things interesting we went on scene with only two people, myself and my eng/ff. The crew capt. and the other ff were on the farside of town digging out hydrants after a bad snow storm. It was really lonely up there for a few min., but we got the fire out , and know one hurt, resident or ff. Mutial aid and off-duty crews and reserves. total of 15 men and women. It must be nice were you live.

LT.

[FFE3BFD]

Man,I really feel bad for you guy's. The minimum manning for us is 3 per rig(max. being 5) If we got banged out for a car fire, the S.O.P.'s call for a 1 and 1 response(1 engine, 1 truck)if the auto is outside. Arrival time is usually around 3 minutes,first due engine gives a size-up and fills out a structural response. (2 more engines)And this may sound unusual, but we are set-up with 2 skid loads, one being 700' of 3x2-1/2" wyed to 200' of 1-3/4" and the other being 700' of 3x2-1/2" reduced to 200' 2-1/2" hand line, reverse lay. We would drop both sides and the MPO would go find water. (WE ARE A CITY 3 HYDRANTS PER BLOCK) The inital line would be stretched (1-3/4")to the interior to protect/extinsuish from the unenvolved side. At the same time the truck co. would be doing a primmary search of the dwelling and doing horizontal ventalition. 2nd and 3rd due engines would arrive about 4 minutes later. 2nd due would stretch a back-up line to protect any interior stair-ways. 3rd due would be a "squad",do what the B/C tells you to do.(most likely cut the roof above the garage) So to sum it up, 4 company's, minimum of 8 FF's, 3 officer's,1 B/C and 1 aide. This is a "all hands" response and may sound odd, But it is our S.O.P.'s and it is effective.



[This message has been edited by FFE3BFD (edited March 07, 1999).]

[Dalmation90]

*sigh* Hydrants....
One fire last year we had a 1200' 4" lay from the house up the driveway to the road...fed by tankers (took the first tanker just to fill the hose!)
Our version of the reverse lay is our engine heading for a pond...it carries 5000' of 5".

But FFE's response sounds like a good plan for them!
Matt

[firemanhank]

*double sigh* hydrants
D-the only thing worse is to have hydrants that are worthless and cant be trusted. many of our hydrants are on 4" mains!!!! Our standard response in town is to roll #1 engine with four men followed closely by our 3200 gal tanker-this gives us 4200 gal of water to fight with while the no 2 engine comes to the no 1 and lays 4" hose to a hydrant. Tanker shuttle continues the whole fire. We are predominatly a rural dept and including engines can roll with 9000 gallons of water out of the station. good discussion!!

[FFE3BFD]

The hydrant system in the city is pretty good, but we do have a few spots where the mains "dead end" and they are supposed to be 6 in. pipe. (they're 75 years old so who knows) 2 years ago ISO was in town and performed the water flow test. We did get a rating, but that could have on just the number of hydrants alone.
I have had very little training on rural water supply so excuse my ignorance on the subject, but drafting is drafting and pumping LDH is proably the same no matter where you are.
When you pump those long lay's, is it in relay? if so, how far apart do you stage the engines? Let me know.

Thanks and stay safe,
Mike
Bayonne FD

[This message has been edited by FFE3BFD (edited March 09, 1999).]

[Dalmation90]

For us, we seldom use relay pumpers.
We can deliver 1250gpm 1500 feet (@200psi @ pump discharge), 1000gpm 3000' (@225psi), and 750gpm 5000' (@225psi).
Typically our lays are in the 3000' foot range.
We do have a red length of hose in the middle of the load, so if we do decide to run a relay pumper, it has some reference where it should go in. We also drill with a couple of mutual aid companies that would be the relay pumpers.
The longest relay we've taken part in though was 8500' of 5" with about 200' of elevation gain, using our pumper at draft and two 1500gpm pumps in relay. We were delivering 1000gpm more or less to the fireground for about 8 hours.
I shouldn't have *sighed* so much about hydrants, because we do have one 16" dead-end main running into the center of our district, with hydrants every 2000' or so. One of our evolutions for our high hazard locations is to forward lay from the hydrant, leaving a hydrant assist valve for a mutual aid company to pump later. The engine disconnects the hose at the fireground, then continues laying another line to a pond or stream. Most locations around the center of town, this will give us 2500-3000gpm to work with between the hydrant and the ponds.
Matt

[Dalmation90]

Ignore...testing something
http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif Matt

[jpm]

sounds like a job for the"DECK GUN"

[Dalmation90]

I thought about using a deck gun instead of 2.5"...

Problem is a house like this (Colonial w/Garage) in our district will be at least a short driveway off the road -- if you position the Engine-Tank to use it's deck gun, you're gonna probably block the best spot for the Ladder. And if the fire is extending into the house, we'd want that ladder in position for vertical ventilation, or worse case to use it's ladder pipe!

But if the house is where you can position the engine to use it's deck gun and still leave room for the ladder (if you have one!), I like deck guns!

Matt

[LT trk106]

Deck guns do good work. But besides engine placement, what about elevation? Is the deck gun to high on the truck ,or is it portable?Also you didnt say if the main garage door is open or not. Whole new set of problems. Just a thaught.

LT.

[This message has been edited by LT trk106 (edited March 10, 1999).]

[Dalmation90]

Offensive Master Streams...
Still waiting for the day the heavens line up so you enter the kitchen door with a deck gun at the end of a 3" line...hook a right and blast away with a 800gpm fog through the door between the house and the garage...

I better get back to work before I let my daydreams get carried away thinking what you could do with enough water on this fire...times a 3000 gallon attack-tanker or laying in from a hydrant would open interesting possibilities!

http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif Matt

[ka]

<what are your immediate actions?>

View structure with imager on the way in.

<How much water are you carrying?>

2500 gallons

<How many men do you have, on your truck >

10

<<and/or volunteers responding in their cars to the scene?>>

Maybe a handful

<<In your district, would you typically be able to lay a line to a hydrant,>>

If the hydrant is within a mile of the first in engine, yes. If not the second company would complete the lay up to 1.5 miles

< What size lines?>

One or two 5's

<<Can you conduct a search of the house? >>

Sure

<<Ventilation?>>

Sure

< You have a lot of fire to keep out of the house, and only a small crew to do it with.>

Yes we are hamstringed running with just 10 on the engine on ll calls and a duty officer in his rig and a handful who respond direct. We only carry masks for 12 on a rig and one on the duty rig.

What would we do?

Stop at hydrant if there is one, attach auto hydrant valve and lay in not leaving a firefighter.

Duty officer would orbit the building with an imager and get a view of things, point video camera at house, maintain electronic accountability, run fire with scba on as part of two out.

1. Engineer would engineer, throttle up, insure foam is on, direct gun at garage door for exterior attack if needed or to stop laping, Direct second gun to cover any exposures with foam, charge attack lines as needed, connect supply line, run cords for blowers, and cord lights, set up fixed floods. Would be scba equipped to act as second member of 2 out. keeps david clark on attached to portable radio for constant communications.

2. Officer and one firefighter both with portables go to the second floor with an imager to conduct a search pulling a 1 inch 150 gpm protection line and piercing tip. Opening windows as they go. Annouce primary all clear and switch with ground floor crew to provide secondary search of 1st floor. If a basement is in the home the crew does primary and secondary searches.

3. Firefighter and officer both radio equipped would search first floor and insure garage door was closed. Notifying command. Switch out with 2nd floor crew and conducting secondary of 2nd floor annouce secondary all clear. All three would begin attic access guided by imager. Order power killed at that time, Foam as they go from below to knock down extension.

4. One fire fighter radio equipped would pressurize the house with a blower and join ground floor team. Annouce completion to IC.

5. Two firefighters radio equipped would pull a 2 inch 350 gpm line to the side door of the garage. And let'er rip. Not likely they would enter the garage due to truss construction in our area.

6. One firefighter would open or cut the garage doors. Attach winch to cars and pull them out one at a time.

7. Last firefighter throws salavage covers eventually joined by the secondary ground floor crew to protect 2nd floor contents.

8. Drive up members would don scba and provide assistance as needed putting cars out.

9. second in crew would provide relief and rehab for first crew

[jpm]

i just noticed a couple of key words in first post. fully involved stucture was one.someone mentioned a "1-3/4 should do the job" why play around? i think i learned somewhere the golden rule. little fire little hose. big fire big hose. my first due truck is a 2000 gallon attack pumper yea thats right one mpo one officer and three firefighters.two 15' 2-1/2 lines preconnected to deck gun. hook up to number 3 and 4 discharge.guess what " fire is out". three firefighters left to pull attack line one 250' 1 3/4 line smooth bore to front door . due a quick search and check for extenshion, vent .second due truck its twin supplies mop up operation.i dont like to play.remember that a building on fire is a building under destruction and must be considered as a potential for failure.no building is worth a firefighters life.stay low stay safe, train hard

[This message has been edited by jpm (edited March 11, 1999).]

[ka]

jpm

Does the 5/8's sheet rock stand a chance against a deck gun attack? If not, don't you stand the chance of spreading the fire into the possibly occupied structure?

What pattern do you suggest on the gun?

If all your guys are going out aren't you violating 2 in 2 out?

Didn't you say, "i dont like to play.remember that a building on fire is a building under destruction and must be considered as a potential for failure.no building is worth a firefighters life"?

[LT trk106]

Man you guys and your deck guns. They are a fine tool if used in the right way. I dont think this fire is one. You MUST be sure there is no one inside this house before you open up on the garage from the outside. There is to much chance to spread fire, smoke, and steam inside the structure. Hit it hard and fast from the inside, 13/4" or 2" or 21/2", it does not matter. Get inside and put that fire out.You can do a primary search as you advance the line to the door between the house and the garage.It is also your best shot at stopping any exstenson into the house, remember hit from the unburned side to the butned side if you can. I think you can with this one. Once the main body is knocked down you must pull walls and ceilings to check for exstenson. Dont forget the backup line.

LT>

[Aff]

I agree with Lt106, deck guns definatly have there uses; surround and drown, quick blitz K/D ect., but an inside out attack with what a crew can handle -2 1/2", 1 3/4"- with a concurent primary search would do a lot to contian. Overhaul is going to be some work and don't forget to open the roof on the garage if possible, and get the attick opened up from below.

[jpm]

blitz attack is used in the following manner often used in rural settings.apply water at a very high rate for a very short time in hopes of knocking fire down to where an aggressive attack with smaller hand lines can be effective.the blitz is generally an external mode of operation.if water is applied at 350 or more for 40 to 60 seconds and a knock down is achieved, the total gallons applied will not usually exhaust the apparatus water tank.attack can be changed to to an interior attack and still have water. as other vehicles arrive, they can supplement the attack vehicles water supply.under no circumstances should the stream operate for more then one minute. the objective is a short, powerful delivery to the seat of the fire to allow hand lines to operate. sorry but the best way i no how to save lives civilian and more important my crew is with a rapid attack. words like fully involved and smoke coming from the eaves still scare me.ben there done that

[E7engineer]

All of you live in a great world... We have 32 stations that cover 2200 square miles. For us a, dispatch would tone out 1 engine. That unit would have 1 LT and 1 driver. Provided that this is a four man station. Normal stations has an Engineer and a Firefighter. Thats all
After we arrived on scene, and requested a second alarm. It could take up to 15 min. for your second due to arrive. My rig has a 1000 gal. tank with a 1250 GPM Midship pump.
1.75 in hose ( 150 and 200 Ft ) with automatic nozzles. My first move would be to ensure no body is home. after that an 1.75 line would be pulled and brought around to attempt to stop the fireat the garage. and pray that the next arriving unit gets there soon.

[CHF1]

Well, being in a VERY rural area has its drawbacks and its advantages. We run a
DPO, and as few as 2 FF's during the day,
and that number fills out, of course, in the evenings.
We are all volunteer but we have 2 career FF/EMT's that respond on all of our calls
during the day within 2-3 minutes with an
ambulance. We utilize them any way we like.
On a "car fire" we have been running an engine(1000gal) and a tanker(3000gal) which
would place the water where it would need to be but not many personnel. Some would show
up in POV's when they heard the full structure fire alert. In our county that
would bring a total of 3 companies. It would
be 3 engines, 3 tankers and the ambulance,
and possibly a rescue/support vehicle with
extra personnel. Their response time would
be crucial in a situation like this because
of the delay in their being alerted.
Also, not having access to any hydrants
would DEMAND our water shuttle operations
be conducted ASAP, which would take away
more personnel.
As I said, being rural can have its drawbacks, but having a 3 company alert on
all "reported" structure fires can really
get everything in motion EARLY!!!

GREAT SUBJECT!!
This is why Chiefs,like myself, come out
looking so good--because we have people who
can think on their feet, save lives and really make a difference like YOU!!!

THANKS,
CHF1