Vent Saws

[SBrooks]

Twice in the last month I've been on a roof with a chainsaw, venting a fire. The first time was on a townhouse in icy weather. At this fire, the saw blade dulled & wouldn't finish the fourth side. IC called us off the roof before we could finish the job with an axe. The second time was on a single family dwelling. I finished the cut on this building but noticed that the blade was really dull for the fourth cut. Blades were changed after both incidents.

The saws are stihl chainsaws and the blades are standard (not carbide tipped). Also the cuts were made through shingle and roofing materials. We used to buy the carbide blades, but decided it was better (cheaper)to just keep the standard blades sharp.

What are your experiences with this? Do you use carbide tipped chainsaw blades? Do you use rotary saws?

I'd like to know, but next time I'm taking the 12" rotary with a carbide tipped blade.

[Halligan84]

We use stihl saws with fire service blades, they work fine, the standard chains don't. The K-1200 with the carbide or warthog works great too, some guys are scared of it though. Have a Quikvent that is great as long as it isn't broken, which isn't often. Would never buy another

[adarty]

My dept. uses Poulan & Homelite chain saws with the standard chains. We've found that stripping off the shingles/roof material in the area of the cut helps to increase the length of time the blade will stay sharp. Takes a little more time to strip off the roof material, but we are able to make several cuts with one saw if needed.

[AMunday]

We have used stihl chain saws with carbide tip blades for years. Several of the guys love them but I never converted from the circular saw we carried.

Not to long ago we purchased Cutter's Edge saw and have "bullet" chains on them. This is my saw of choice now for residential roofs. Some of the other shifts have used on commercial roofs with some sucess but recently we had our second chain break during a training exercise. This has reduced my confidence in them and I would use the circular (cut off) saw now to open a commercial roof.

As far as standard "sharpened chain" goes we recently had an old time Captain who thought we could save a couple of dollars by sharpening our own chains. We have some of this stuff laying in the compartments and in the firehouse but most of use would never consider using it on working fires.

If anyone else has had any problems with either the Cutter's Edge saw or the "bullet style" chain please post it here or email me.

Thank you.

[AMunday]

We have used stihl chain saws with carbide tip blades for years. Several of the guys love them but I never converted from the circular saw we carried.

Not to long ago we purchased Cutter's Edge saw and have "bullet" chains on them. This is my saw of choice now for residential roofs. Some of the other shifts have used on commercial roofs with some sucess but recently we had our second chain break during a training exercise. This has reduced my confidence in them and I would use the circular (cut off) saw now to open a commercial roof.

As far as standard "sharpened chain" goes we recently had an old time Captain who thought we could save a couple of dollars by sharpening our own chains. We have some of this stuff laying in the compartments and in the firehouse but most of use would never consider using it on working fires.

If anyone else has had any problems with either the Cutter's Edge saw or the "bullet style" chain please post it here or email me.

Thank you.

[iwood51]

We use Partner K-12 with 24 tooth carbide tipped blades. We have just put into service a cutters edge saw in one of our substations. I haven't seen it in operation yet, but looks promising from the above comments.

[Chops]

I'll agree with AMunday-- The Cutter's Edge with "Bullet" Chain is my choice. The best thing is that Cutter's Edge offers bar enhancements for the most common saws, including Stihl. This way you can adapt a "Bullet" Chain and also have a depth gauge.
I feel the depth gauge is important in depts. that don't use the saw regularly since most of us, me included, get rusty on how far down we cut or what a beam feels like.
An alternative is the "Chopper" Blade offered by Fire Hooks Unlimited in NY for the K-1200 saw or Stihl counterpart.
The choice of standard Chains is not good for FD use; Esspecially on new membrane or staple roofing.

[squadee]

CUTTERS EDGE SAWS are the best saws i have ever worked with in the fact
they are lite weight, and has a great cutting
force, never had any problems with them,
just make sure they are well maintained
fresh gas and oil mix try to keep it fairly clean very nice saws. they also come with a depth gaurd. as for the other brands
all saws should be cleaned and also well
maintained, for tose departments that do not use it as much aleast try to start them and let them run for a couple of minutes
make sure your fuel is fresh and chain cleaned keep chain oiled. thanks

[ECBURT]

A partner 650 with chopper blade cuts just as fast as the cutters edge with bullet chain. Plus you can change blades and cut metal or masonry. Add 135 octane racing fuel and it will start with half of the first pull every time.

[LadderCo13]

In Indy we use the Cutters Edge Saw with the Bullet style chain. No major problems here.

[nbfd131]

The tool is only as good as its weakest link. In this case it is the chain you are using. By using a non-carbide chain, the chain wears out extremely fast. Remember that the saw is cutting through very abrasive material. Normal chains are designed for wood only which works great for making a larger opening of a window or such, but not though asphalt shingles. The carbide chains generally last like 4 time longer or more, making them alot more economical to buy in the long run. A K12 will also work with a carbide tip wood blade, to the fiber concrete cutting blade.

[nbfd131]

AMunday,
We use the cutters edge saw for 3 years before our new truck came with a poulan roof saw with a plunge attachment on it. Both have worked very well, but, the cutters edge did have some problems with the chain breaking after about 4 uses. I think we changed blade manufacture and haven't had a problem since.

[Dryfus]

My FD has been using Sthill 044 saws with the Cutters Edge bullet chain. The chain is very durable due to its conservative cutting profile and bullet raker, but it cuts slower than other chain I've used. We have overcome the chain's slow cutting by replacing the standard 7-tooth drive sprocket to an 8-tooth sprocket. This modification increases chain speed and makes for a great vent saw with the best cutter life. We have averaged 30-40 cuts per chain before sending them to the company for repair and sharpening. We have also done some recent testing with Carbichain brand chain with good results. The Carbichain cuts very fast but is not as durable. Both The Cutters Edge and Carbichain have developed their own chain link that supports the carbide cutter over it’s entire rear surface which provides more welding surface than other brands, modified forestry chipper chain. My suggestion would be any high horsepower saw with the Cutters Edge Bullet chain, modified with an 8-tooth sprocket. This combination will ensure that all your cuts will be finished!

[Hook and Ladder]

CARBIDE! ...if you're going to use a chain saw. Otherwise stick to the circular saws. It helps to try and avoid the areas around the supports where the nails are too. Metal ruins even the carbide blades pretty quickly. ...I know...duh.

[This message has been edited by Hook and Ladder (edited March 03, 1999).]

[BC White]

My department has a number of the saws mentioned previously (stihl, quick vent, stihl rotary, and cutters edge).
The quick vent (for us) rates as the worst (out of sercive more than in.....would leak no matter how it was stored in the compartment).
The stihl chain saws do a fair job for residential fires (our district is mainly new construction with most roofs being 7/16 OSB, 1 layer of paper and 1 layer of shingles).

The stihl rotary saws are set up with steel cutting blades for f/e and building vent operations. We also carry the concrete/stone blades and carbide baldes.

The cutters edge is our newest saw purchase, and is the favorite.
We looked at the cutters edge when we were training with the City of Indianapolis Fire Department (Ladder 7), and they also seemed to be quite happy with the saw.
The boys in Indy get a bit more work than my department, so their input was respected.

Our saw has worked well in training and on a few fires. So far, no problems with the chains.
It costs a bit more that the stihl, but seems to be more firefighter friendly.

[ka]

The Partner 650 with a chopper blade offers the greatest versatility of any saw. It is light weight and with a blade change can cut metal or masonry. We use the DA Axe blade for that.

Out goal was one saw with one method of starting, one training program, one type of fuel 135-150 octane drag racing fuel for first pull starting everytime in any weather. The circular saw is much safer than any chain saw. The circular saw is as quick as the best cutters edge/arbi blade combination with dual purpose cutting capability not available in any chain saw.

[CD]

My FD has been buying Sthill 046 Magnum saw with the Cutters Edge chain on a 24" bar. I disagree with firefighters that feel circular saws are safer, the safest vent is a fast vent! My roof crew can apply the airbrake, raise two ladders, cut a 4x4 hole and get on the ground in four and a half minutes. We have tried numerous times to do this with a circular saw and have found that a chain saw is nearly twice as fast. I chalange any firefighter to roof races with a circ. saw!

[ka]

>>I disagree with firefighters that feel circular saws are safer, the safest vent is a fast vent! >>

Have you ever tried side by side with the right saw and blade?

We have tried numerous times to do this with a circular saw and have found that a chain saw is nearly twice as fast.

We found we can cut 80 feet per minute. How much does the chain saw do?

Have you ever used a 650 with a chopper?

<<I chalange any firefighter to roof races with a circ. saw!>>

That is what a pair of well know chiefs said from LA too!

It turns out the saw is faster than the firefighter.

[CD]

A powerful chainsaw, equipped with a good carbide chain such as Bullet Chain on a 24” bar will out perform a circular saw because of it’s ability to be quickly maneuvered from head cuts to side cuts quickly. This greater agility and absence of the gyroscopic effect inherent to circular saws, allows for a firefighter to make accurate cuts rapidly. The 80’ per minute rate of cutting with a circular saw sounds great, however, ventilation requires numerous cuts, perpendicular to each other, not 80’ straight cuts. The chainsaw also allows for much greater reach, which allows for ventilation maneuvers like the “pull back” on panelized roofs that can not be performed with the circular saw due to inadequate reach, which incidentally was invented by LA Fire. This obvious reach advantage also allows for venting on extremely steep roofs from aerials or roof ladders much easier than with a circular saw. By the way, I used a curricular saw exclusively, for 15 years prior to getting chain saws. Take care

[MAswad]

Without a doubt, the safest and most efficient ventilation tool to be used for roof ventilation is a carbide bulleted chain equipped Cutters Edge saw.

This saw has both the power and the air intake system to perform in the type of enviroment these saws will operate in.

Normal chain saws are not designed for this enviroment. When time is such a critical issue, the tool of choice should be choosen as would any other firefighting tool, and that is one made specifically for the job it is to perform. Why Compromise?

[ka]

And what do you do with the chainsaw when you find a metal or concrete roof?

[CD]

Cut it! That is the beauty of the Bullet chain. It will cut all of the light gauge metal roofs on the market. Also, I have used a Bullet Chain equipped chain saw to cut an insulated metal sectional overhead garage door without losing any teeth. The key is to cut mid panel and stay at least 6" from the ends to avoid the hinges. With a concrete roof I would not try to vent unless I could take advantage of existing openings or consider horizontal vent with PPV.

[MBURNSWORT]

Cutters Edge in my opinion is the best saw
out there.It can be used on various mater-
ials including metal.It can be used inside
to breech walls or cut floors for escape or
rescue.The depth guard helps to take the oops
factor away (oops I think I cut the trusses).
And when your all done at the fire and the
tornado comes through switch to a carbide
chain and cut trees faster than you can bel-
ive.A Cutters Edge runs at 13500rpms.And for
you concrete lovers Cutters Edge makes a con-
crete saw.

[CD]

The Cutters Edge saw is a good saw, but underneath the labels is a modified 65.1 cc Jonsered chain saw. Jonsered is a subsidiary of Husquvarna and is generally considered by people in the timber industry an inferior machine to the Husquvarna line. The saw has been modified for greater performance and reliability and has several good features. I have used the saw several times in training and it performs well, yet I feel that the same or better performance can be had at considerable cost savings. I chose to buy the Sthil 046 Magnum chainsaw. The saw has a larger engine 76 cc and is rated at 5.9 HP, with a no load speed of 13,500 rpm. I equipped the saw with a 24” bar .404 pitch, .063 gauge roller tip and the Cutters Edge Bullet Chain and a .404 pitch 8 tooth sprocket. The saw was modified with a stainless steel muffler guard, which allows the standard dogs to be used if needed for cutting trees. The saw has several advantages to the Cutters Edge saw: greater power (Sthil 5.9HP vs. Cutters Edge5.2), longer reach( Sthil 24 vs. Cutters Edge 20”), similar weight (Sthil 24.7lb. Vs. Cutters Edge 24.5), greater chains speed (8-tooth drive sprocket vs. 7 with the Cutters Edge). The most convincing argument about performance, is that the Sthil will out perform the Cutters Edge saw out of the box without any modifications and using pump gas, not racing fuel. Look for yourselves when buying ventilation saws. All saws were intended for use in the forestry industry, the Cutters Edge included and despite what salesmen will say, you can match or exceed it’s performance with other saws. If anybody is interested, I will describe how to modify the Cutters Edge saw chain to match your saw’s peak performance. By the way I am a Fireman, not a salesman.

[ka]

CD

would you email me please

[toughmack]

HEY CD, If my information serves me correct
Jonsered, Husqvarna, Poulan, and other small
engine brands are own by a parent company
in Sweden named Electrolux. Jonsered is
a professional grade powerhead with the
Husky being more the consumer grade line
of products. Think about it, Have you
ever seen a Jonsered weed wacker! My local
lawn and garden equipment supplier, has
the full line of Husky weed wackers etc.
Happy Venting, and be safe.

[This message has been edited by toughmack (edited March 11, 1999).]

[CD]

toughmack, you are partially correct. All of those companies are owned by the same corporation. However, all of the companies carry a wide variety of products from electric weedeaters to professional equipment, including Jonsered. Your attempt to characterize Husky as a homeowner brand is misguided at best. My local forestry supply store caries a Husky 3120XP chain saw that can spin a 72” bar with .404 gauge chain. This saw is capable of downing a twelve-foot diameter tree and is touted as the most powerful stock saw on the market. It is not intended for homeowner use! Perhaps you could use a 3120XP on your vent crew, with a six-foot bar, think what you could do!

[firemanhank]

cd-please email me with your changes at
firemanhank@yahoo.com

[toughmack]

CD,
I don't think I see the need for a power head of that size on a vent saw. I'm sure
firefighters want light weight vent saws to
make their job easier. Also you will note
that I said Husky had more the consumer grade
line of products. Here are a few points to
ponder:
Aren't all Jonsered pro grade power heads
made in Sweden? I know I've seen comparible
Husky's made in Canada and Yugoslavia. The
Swedish have long been known for their
exceptional quality products such as Volvo,
Saab, etc. The Cutters Edge (CE) air induction system is far superior to the turbo
Jonsered, Or the Husky air injection systems,
and here is why. Both the Jonsered and Husky
utilize air cleaner elements with approx 12
square inches of surface area in the turbo
models. As we all know, there is no actual
"turbocharger" in these saw but instead a
volute that strips are off of the cooling fan. These air injection saws were introduced to meet the new federal emission
standards. In structual firefighting,
smoke is produced that is heavy in particulates and this clogs filters rapidly.
The saw cooling fan acts as a centrifuge and
spins the heavy particulates outward which
are then stripped off the cooling fan by the
volute and sent to the air cleaner element
thus clogging the air filter rapidly and thus
degrading the performance of the saw. The CE
air filter is made by K&N filters, which are
the finest performance air filters money can
buy. If one were to disassemble the CE filter and lay it out on a flat surface, it
would be noted that the CE air filter is
154 square inches of surface area, more than
twelve times the size of the standard filter.
It only makes sense that the more surface
area of the CE filter prolongs the saws
performance if heavy particulate atmospheres.
The longer it takes to clog the better and also the more surface area means better airflow throught the filter. The more air
that is introduced into the cylinder means
more fuel can be intoduced and thus more
BTU's can be produced which relates directly
to horsepower. But Horsepower is only part
of the equation. Torque is what maintains
chain speed in the cut! Any powerhead can
be tuned to atmospheric conditions to run
at maximum rpm's, but if the powerhead has
a poor torque curve, all the no load rpm's
mean nothing! The Cutters Edge saw is able
to maintain more than 70 chain feet per second IN THE CUT, with a no load speed of
106.5 chain feet per second. I have cut side
by side with 044 Stihl's on the exact same
roof and found that the CE is consistently
20% faster! It is the same principle as a
400 hp big block Chevy vs. a 400 hp Caterpillar diesel. Which one will do more
work? The bottom line is, YOU GET WHAT YOU
PAY FOR! Remember, no matter what brand of
saw use choose, monitor roof conditions as
you vent, so if the job goes in the commode,
you and your brother and sister firefighters
have time to get off the roof!
Talk to you later! I enjoy your view on this
subject.

[CD]

79
toughmack, the Sthil saw that I spoke of is the 046 Magnum and it is equipped with an engine approximately 10% larger than the 044. You stated that the Cutters Edge saw performed 20% better than the 044, perhaps the difference in engine size played a role. The 046 Magnum is a more powerful saw and has a two stage filter system similar to the Cutters Edge saw, although smaller. While I have never compared the saws “side by side”, I feel that 046 performed equally as well to the Cutters Edge saw. The modifications that my firefighters make to the 046M vent saws with increasing the diameter of drive sprocket, increases the chain speed by 1/7th and still keeps the saw in it’s 10,500rpm peak torque range under load. We tested this by cutting roofs in training, with a tach taped on the saw. In fact, on some light roofs, we had to put excessive pressure on the saw to reduce the rpm’s to the 10,500rpm range. This indicates that the engine can still handle more load. Now for a practical thought, I have had saws die on my crew many times while venting, due to oxygen starvation. This was due to cutting in thick smoke. All that is needed is to find a clear spot away from the smoke and re-start. Afterwards I expected to find a clogged filter and I never did. In fact the only times I ever have any performance problems related to a clogged filter is when the saw is used to cut drywall or lath and plaster when we chase fire through the walls of balloon constructed homes. I still feel that while the Cutters Edge is a good tool, the same performance can be had for less money. On our trucks, we carry a minimum of two saws and one on every engine. Seven days a week our truck crews, in full PPE with SCBA, can still set the air brake, throw two ladders, cut a 4’X4’ hole, and be on the ground in less than four and one half minutes, with a stock saw. Now with two in two out, we beat the engine slugs to the fire every time!

[nbfd131]

Our brand new Poulan saws were able to make 12 4x4 foot roof holes before the chains were so dull that you could barely make a entry hole into the roof of asphalt shingles. I know this for certain because it was first used on 3 training houses that we were demolishing (ie having lots of fun in and on)for trainging. Have had much better luck with carbide and that is what the chains were replaced with.

[fyrescue]

We use Stihl saws, have 2 circular cutoff saw, 1 with carbide blade, 1 with a metal cutting blade. And we 2 chainsaws with carbonic chains. I perfer to use the cutoff saw for roof work and the chainsaws if I'm goin through a wall. Don't try to save money buy using a standard chain, spend the bucks for the right tools. Sounds like you already answered your question if you can only cut 3 sides to you vent hole.

Be Safe
Mike

[Captain704]

My fire department converted our Stihl saw from regular chain to the cutters edge bullet chain a little over a year ago. It has been used on at least a dozen structure fires since plus numererous training exercises very successfully. I highly recommend the change.

It cost less than buying the whole saw and performs equally as well.

[morriss]

We use a combination of tools for venting depending on the construction type. One that we use for residential roofs that has not been mentioned is a cordless DeWalt 5" circular saw. It works great for the standard plywood roof. We strip the shingles then use the saw. We also have Stihl chainsaws and a Quickie circular saw that stays set up for masonary cutting.

[RSQLT43]

We have a Tempest Ventmaster that we are very pleased with, the only thing that I dont like is the compression release button.

We also use an 18 volt cordless sawzall with an agressive wood cutting blade,this is a very good tool, and blades are only 2 bucks a shot.

[woody1973]

i used the k12 saw for a long time when i first got on the fire department before we puchased a Cutters Edge with a bullet chain, and i could not believe the difference. In my opinion it was worth every penny we paid for it. I have since changed departments and am using a plain chain saw(residential) and a k12 again but at least i had a chance to be spoiled by the CE at some point in my career. The way i see it if your going to argue over which saw to use go back to using axes on everything and you will learn to appreciate ANY kind of saw you use.