Layoffs in Flint, Mi

[FireLt1951]

Here's one for you. The City of Flint, Mi has decided to pinkslip 61 of their 200 firefighters and expect the surrounding cities to man and fight their fires. I bet that the city fathers in Flint and in N.C. won't get rid of any of their political cronies or cut their pay and benefits. http://detnews.com/2001/metro/0107/28/metro-255959.htm

[CaptainGonzo]

I would hope that the fire officals of the surrounding communities would show some testicular fortitude and review the mutual aid agreements. It's one thing to help the brothers in another community, it's another thing to abuse the privelege. A similar situation happened in Lawrence Massachusetts in the late 1980's to early 90's. The City had laid off personnel due to budget problems while they were having two and three multiple alarm fires a night. Lawrence was getting the nickname of the "Dresden of the Merrimack Valley".

The mayor of Lawrence, Mary Kennedy had the unmitigated audacity to make this statement to the press when asked about the fire problem and layoffs ...

They should be glad to come to Lawrence to fight fires...they are getting experience that they would never see in their own towns" The fire chiefs of the surrounding communities did not take this lightly. It got to the point that Lawrence was calling for mutual aid just to cobver the usual false alarm and medical calls.
The Chiefs got together and changes were made in the mutual aid system. By the way, Mary Kennedy was defeated in the next election!

[T. BARRECA, JR]

This must give the departments around Flint a warm fuzzy felling all over.

To tell them you are laying off firefighters and by the way we want you to come fight our fires.

Another mayor or one of his good ol boys saving money for their raises.


Stay low - Be cool :cool:

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: T. Barreca, Jr ]

[Big Zee]

Yep, I was laid-off in 95 do to fanancial difficulties also. The funny thing is that most of the same administration who caused the problems are still there. Not only are they playing games with the firefighter lives, but their citizens to. What a crime. :(

[Fire Eater 07]

I hate :mad: to see stations shut down....we are here to serve the public and thats what we get?? This city also had budget problems this year( because of a golf course for one- which went MILLIONS over budget)...thank the Lord no one was let go...Oh Wait! we are already short 32!!! just as of January....Makes you just wish you could change city council and chiefs and mayors doesnt it?? :D
My opinions are just that!!! OPINIONS
stay safe brothers

[cbfd34]

yeah thats a bunch of crap. Mayor Stanley SUCKS. Good thing the brothers in the surronding communities told the mayor and his henchmen that the city is on their own when fires come in. They will only provide muitual aid in chatostrophic conditions!!

[Dalmatian90]

Let's see, if I'm reading this right...Flint will be left with 140 firefighters.

Protecting a population of 131,000!

I'm assuming 3 platoons...divide total by 4 to take into account vacation/sick/etc...that's what, 1 FF for every 3800 people?

My guess is most of the new sun-cities of the Southwest and West with newer construction have higher staffing ratios!

[FireLt1951]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90:
<STRONG>Let's see, if I'm reading this right...Flint will be left with 140 firefighters.

Protecting a population of 131,000!

I'm assuming 3 platoons...divide total by 4 to take into account vacation/sick/etc...that's what, 1 FF for every 3800 people?

My guess is most of the new sun-cities of the Southwest and West with newer construction have higher staffing ratios!</STRONG>
Dalmation, I'm not sure what you're implying as far as staffing ratios but their fires are almost as numerous as Detroits and to lose 61 is going to cost the firefighters and the civilian population dearly. If I'm wrong about your remarks intentions, my apologies. Actually 3800 per F.F. is high compared to a lot of cities around the country. Your figures are wrong, the actual number would fall to around a 1,000 per F.F. Here's list with the population per F.F.
Some do have higher staffing ratios but here is the point. If you've ever been in Flint, it looks a lot like a 3rd world country. Their number of fires is way above average along with the medical runs. The City of Flint will wear these firefighters out way before their time. I know a few firefighters there and the work load will increase dramatically now because the arsonists can have a field day. In Detroit and Flint fire is community entertainment, especially when the weather is warmer. It's also used as a form of urban renewel, cheaper to burn than tear down, not to mention the gang related fire bombings and other ghetto malcontents.

Ranking City / State / Population / Population
Per Firefighter


1. Boston MA. 574,283/ 359
2. Jersey City NJ. 228,537/ 368
3. Baltimore MD. 736,013/ 416
4. Pittsburgh PA. 369,879 /418
5. Newark NJ. 275,221/ 423
6. Columbus OH. 632,910 /440
7. Cincinnati OH. 364,040 /447
8. Buffalo NY. 328,123/ 456
9. Memphis TN. 618,652/ 458
10. Atlanta GA. 394,017/ 469
11. Oklahoma City OK. 447,719/ 475
12. Washington DC. 606,900 /482
13. San Francisco CA. 723,959/ 483
14. Charlotte NC. 395,934 /500
15. Cleveland OH. 505,616 /516
16. Denver CO. 467,610 /522
17. Indianapolis City IN. 390,000 /524
18. Rochester NY. 231,636 /531
19. Tulsa OK. 367,302 /547
20. Nashville/Davidson TN. 488,374 /574
21. Omaha NE. 335,795 /574
22. Tampa FL. 280,015 /583
23. Houston TX. 1,630,553 /604
24. Milwaukee WI. 628,088 /610
25. Seattle WA. 516,259 /624
26. Dallas TX. 1,006,877 /637
27. Philadelphia PA. 1,585,577 /647
28. New York City N.Y. 7,322,564 /648
29. Kansas City MO. 435,146 /649
30. St.Paul MN. 272,235 /653
31. Portland OR. 437,319 /658
32. New Orleans LA. 496,938 /668
33. Miami FL. 358,548 /669
34. Fort Worth TX. 447,619 /685
35. St. Louis MO. 396,685 /696
36. Chicago IL. 2,783,726 /752
37. Sacramento CA. 369,365 /770
38. Oakland CA. 372,242 /776
39. Minneapolis MN. 368,383 /784
40. Detroit MI 1,027,974 /843
41. Long Beach CA. 429,146 /858
42. El Paso TX. 515,342 /907
43. Phoniex AZ. 983,403 /928
44. Virginia Beach VA. 393,069 /1232
45. Anahiem CA. 266,406 /1269
46. Los Angeles CA. 3,485,398 /1282
47. SanDiego CA. 1,110,549 /1346
48. Fresno CA. 354,202 /1610

1997 Numbers stated were provided by the IAFF local of each city.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

[gunnyv]

We just hired one of the guys who was about to be laid off in Flint. He said they had 182 members, and were going to lay off 62-he quit so it's only 61. He said the Mayors plan is to go down to 102 FF total. They closed a station, dropped their ALS program, and here comes the best:
A new ambulance company just started in town, knowing the FD is losing it's ambulances. They have made arrangements with the mayor to house their PRIVATE ambulances in the firehouses-and they are trying to recruit the laid off FFs to man them. Of course, at less than 2/3 the pay they made as FFs. What a brutal environment, for a guy to get laid off, have to take that job to support his family, and be forced to do the same job for less pay.

[Dalmatian90]

Yep, you took my comment the wrong way FireLt! (No problem though!)

Take a look at Boston's figure -- 1 Firefighter/574 residents -- but that's total.

They run 4 platoons, so roughly 1/5 of their manpower is "on" per shift at any time (not 1/4, since there is always sick days/vacation/etc time.) 5*574 = 1 FF per 2870 residents is on duty.

Look at Phoenix -- 3 platoon city. 4*928 = 1 FF per 3712.

Now look at Flint -- 1 per 3800. If the new figures I'm seeing (after lay off staff of 120) are accurate, it'll a 1 to 4400 ratio! They have Fire hazards like the northeast, but staffing like departments that predominantly protect newer buildings with much less of an exposure problem. That's awful skimpy.

[FireLt1951]

Dalmation,

Point well taken. The problem is that all these departments I personally talked to stated that they never average the firefighters per resident based on on duty personnel. They average it by total number within the department and their ability to use all personnel if it were neccessary.

If you broke down Detroits average based on on duty personell it would come to over a 3900 to 1 ratio and that would be with 4 members on each apparatus. Reality lies in the fact that we normally ride with 3 which would bring the ratio to over 4500 to 1. We've had some days where it reached as high as 5200 to 1 when they were closing companies on a daily basis. We also fight a lot of fires for the City of Highland Park which raises the numbers even higher.

I wish cities would base it on on duty personnel but unfortunately they don't. The Flint Fire Department is definately going to get screwed big time and thats criminal to me. Lets see if the lawsuits start flying like they have in Detroit. Reguardless of that, the powers that be should pay a heavy price for this stupid move. The surrounding cities of Flint should seriously rethink their mutual aid agreements and put the city fathers on notice.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

[RPFD209]

Maybe I am just a dumb "Vollie" :rolleyes: but you would think that Flint would learn from all the other areas that have made this mistake. I'm in Jersey and we are surrounded by 3 towns that did drastic cut backs. 2 of them though that the surrounding towns would come in and cover their ass, WRONG!!! It got so crazy that the were calling a full taskforce in for a kitchen fire or a car next to a structure. What the hell is it going to take to open these over paid ******* council's and mayor's eye's. How many firefighter's need to lose their lives due to the department's being under staffed. These guy's are working their tail's off as it is. Now with the cut back's, if someone is sick or hurt your gonna have to bring someone in on OT. I don't get it!!! :mad:
Well, My heart goes out to all the guy's that lost their jobs.
Everyone, Stay safe

[LMfire]

I am on a dept. that surrounds the City of Flint(soon to be ghost town). We just hired back one of our old ff's that went to the city 2 years ago. It is really bad when amayor can't get his head out of his ass and screws up this bad and then the people elect him back in to screw things up even more. I was glad to see that area FD that Flint was calling all the time for help finally stepped up and said no more. These cut backs of fire and police are going to cost lives. With these cut backs their ambulances are down most of the time so the city is relying on the private ambulances in the ares to pick up the volume. I am sorry but that is not very good. I worked the day the lay offs went into effect and we ran medicals non stop for 24hrs. Most of them were to the city. How can we explain why there were no ambulances available to those in need in the surrounding communities because the ambulances in thier area are taking calls in the city.

By the way gunnyv no the new ambulance company is not making its move into the city because of the lay-offs and NO they are not moving into the fire stations. They have their own base that will be opening up on Firday.

[chief1001]

This is an absolute nightmare, I cant understand what the hell the city could have gotten themselves into in order to create a budget crisis of this size. The wages of those who were laid off is a pretty good chunk of change just to bail out some dumb a$$ elected official and his buddies after they screwed up in the first
place. Isnt it thier job in the first place to make sure they got enough pennies in the till to begin with? I guess this supports the theory that government only supports government and not the people, boy those goof balls even screwed that up. Off with thier heads!

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: chief1001 ]

[PFD_66]

Dont know how they will do it.
We are running about 240 firefighters /EMS for a city of 67,000

[SCAFDEXP]

Well PFD....none of the departments who Flint wants to call out everytime they have a BS fire know either. All we know is that until they do everything in their power(i.e. recall all available personnel,) we are not going to respond, and this is coming from ALL of the departments who are a part of the Mutual-Aid pact that Flint is a part of. It's none the better that this department was just slapped with the biggest fine MIOSHA(Michigan OSHA) has ever given a fire department for safety violations. It was over $100,000 and included over 90 violations, such as no working smoke detectors in firefighters sleeping quarters. But I think(hope is the better term for this I guess), that the state will soon take over or that Stanley will be recalled, either would be a welcome event for all.

*Please keep in mind that any opinions stated in this post are mine, and in no way reflect those of my department.*

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: SCAFDEXP ]

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: SCAFDEXP ]

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: SCAFDEXP ]

[killerb]

Using gunnyv's numbers of 102/182, Flint FD staffing is being reduced to 56% of its previous level.

I'm SURE we're all confident that the other city departments will be experiencing similar reductions in force.

[Looper]

Well, I grew up in Saginaw, MI and can say that I'm not one bit suprised about the latest developements in Flint.

Don't hold your breath waiting for political change. How long was Coleman Young the Mayor of Detroit? Marion Barry was reelected Mayor of D.C. AFTER being convicted of drug charges!

I salute the surrounding Chiefs for standing up and telling Flint to take care of itself and they're not helping. Mutual Aid should be a two way street -- not a bail out for mismanagement!

[boesfwfd]

My heart goes out to the brothers and thier families in Flint who are losing thier jobs, and as well to the brothers that remain to work in that atmosphere. Please stay safe. It would be nice if a Flint fire fighter would post the city council and mayors addresses so we could all send mail from every city in this country letting them know what we think about them using the fire department as the scapegoat for thier own incompetence.

[FireLt1951]

$151,000 fines levied against Flint F.D.
http://www.detroitnews.com/metro/index.htm

[SFDSmokeEater]

The layoffs in Flint are just another trickle down effect of the pull-out of GM from Flint. I do not know the full count of jobs cut by GM and the effects of businesses in the community that also suffer. I know that the operation of CSX Transportation's McGrew Yard has ended this year and it was caused by the closing of the GM plants there in Flint. As a DoD firefighter the axe of contracting out firefighters looms over our heads. Our base C.O. was rumered to say that he would rather do away with the civilian firefighter and have "mutual aid" from off base departments provide structural and aircraft crash fire protection... yeh that would work.
I hope that the firefighters from flint can hang in there and find some work soon.

Dan