Female Fire Fighter

[dacia]

Well I recently turned in my paper work to volunteer at the station, but I have a slight complaint. Is it because I am a young female that I get the near brush off? I am only 5'5 and I don't look like some rugged chick, plus I am FEMALE so does that mean I just dont look like fire fighter material? I run 3 miles a day. I lift 3 days a week with the FOOTBALL team. I grew up with neighbor boys. It takes a lot for a girl to stick her foot in guys domain, but I would really like a little more respect. Just because I dont look tough doesnt mean that I am not. I get the feeling a girl has to look burly to get anywhere.

[JMP17]

Sister, you just gotta get in there and show.em what you got. There's plenty of jobs to be done on the fire ground. Firefighters come in all sizes, shapes and both genders, but it takes time to gain the trust.
Give it your all and they'll come around.
Stay SAFE and welcome to our world!
JMP17

[FyredUp]

Dacia,

There may indeed be that impression. You have a couple of choices. 1) When you get on the FD ask for nothing above what anyone else gets and prove to them you can do the job. At times it will mean you get the crap jobs, toilets and so on. But if you really want to do this just show them that you can.
2) You can just walk away and not realize something you want to do. Not the best choice.

You know this may be a chance for me to rant on something I've wondered about for quite a while. Why do people always say Female Firefighter? It isn't only you Dacia. On the job are you a female first or a firefighter first? Just imagine if every guy wanted to be called a Male Firefighter. I think this continues the divide by specifically pointing out a difference between Female Firefighters and Firefighters. When and if I need help I don't wonder whether that help is male or female, I just wonder if they know what they are doing!!

Good luck with your FD career. If you really want it you should go for it with all your heart.

Take care,

FyredUp

[NCRSQ751]

Some people don't like new people - period. So it may not be your size or gender. Then again it may.

Does it really matter? One thing I've learned is that everyone has to prove themselves before people want to go into a situation where they quite literally trust you with their life.

With women sometimes it takes longer, sad but true. Debating the politics is not worth the energy.

Just get in there, train as hard as you can, study, learn and train some more. You will gain respect by doing, not by talking.

Best of luck and stick with it! The only one that can hold you back is you!

------------------
Susan Bednar
Captain - Forsyth Rescue
North Carolina Strike Force 1

[Quint1Medic]

I'm with Fyred Up on that whole "make-sure-the-gender-gets-mentioned" issue. I have a reasonable amount of fire-related paraphernalia, but none of it is gender-specific. Those "Lady Firefighter" necklaces make me gag. On the other hand, I just went back to regular blue checks because the firefighter checks our CU offers, which used to have a neato scene of a firefighter silhouetted by a fire, now have a closeup face shot of some guy. I know the majority rules, and all, but I don't want him in my checkbook http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

As far as Dacia goes, just expect to get hazed at first, and don't assume it's because you're female unless they make a point of it. From what you're saying, they won't be able to make much of a case for you being a weakling! Just suck it up and get in there, and they'll eventually stop. The only other things I would suggest are not not NOT dating people from your station (which will automatically get you labeled, and not with anything nice) and be ready to get talked about. See, firefighters gossip like a bunch of old women, and you'll be easier to target just 'cause you're easy to spot! Don't let that dissuade you, though. This is the best job in the world.

[Speedi120]

here are some websites about women in the fire service
www.geocities.com/fire8133/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/fire8133/index.html)
www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4699 (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4699)
www.wfsi.org (http://www.wfsi.org)

[apatrol]

Dacia,

Welcome to the fire service. Honestly I use to be one of the "firefighters should be big tough men" types but learned several years ago this is a very poor attitude. 98% of the job we do requires more brain than muscle and you female types have plenty of brains and have a higher threshold to pain/endurance because of a little thing called child birth.

One word of advise I would give and ask of my new female cadets is simply be one of the gang w/o regards to your sex and the men will include you that much quicker. what I mean is join our little games...IE went to the bar last night and drank six hundred beers... blah blah!!! Just dont lie about how many women you picked up...you would be hit on more than you can imagine then http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

Good Luck

[Fireguy49]

dacia,

The hollywood image of big burly men is just that a HW image. Just act like everyother member and ask for no special favours and you'll do just great. There are always those in each department who make us all look bad. In my department we have 5 women and to be honest they do a better job than a lot of the guys who think they are the best. When your in bunker gear there are no males/females, there are firefighters.

Good Luck

[Tentruck]

Dacia,

I am writing under 10Truck's name. I too am a firefighter and a female. I am 5'1 and what I hate as described as petite. Size is not what gets the job done and you should not let that be your worry. I work with 10Truck and we are career firefighters as well as off duty volunteers in seperate stations. I am proud to be who I am even though I don't work out quite as much as you do. I don't like the term "female firefighter" due to the fact we all do the same job at work and don't need to be seperated by a different title. I am proud of who I work with and I can only hope my partners feel the same about me.

Good luck to you in all your endevors and hang in there. If firefighting is something you really enjoy then make the best of it. You won't be the new member for long.

[Smoke286]

Hey non-male firefighter writing under Tentrucks name. I also have no problem with non-male firefighters, as long as they can do the job.I have seen some who cannot,but then I have seen some men who cant do it. I work with a female firefighter in my station, she can do any job I can including haul my butt out of there if I get into trouble.
Herein lies my problem, If a guy comes in the job who is not suited to it, and we have all seen them I can say dude,you need to look for another line of work before you hurt yourself or somebody else(me springs to mind) But If I say that to a substandard female firefighter,well that is sexual harrasment. If we could get past that political correctness crap, I think we would all do fine

[Da Sharkie]

The majority of firefighters I have worked with call adn career don't gare whether you're a male or a female. All we care about is that if we or another firefighter goes down, God forbid, you'll be there to pull us out. I know some female firefighters that put many men to shame in stamina and ability to do many aspects of the job.

When it comes getting your stones busted I have known women who could snap it right back in the guys' face and then their treated just like anyone else. A lot of guys are old school but luckily they're coming up on retirment and I think you'll see a lot of the attitude dissapear.

Anyway, Go for it, do your best , kick ass at it and screw them. They'll grow to like to you or hate just like they would to anybody else on the job.

------------------
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

[jj1967]

Dacia,
Don't take it personally, most volunteer departments are very close knit, and stand offish with new members. (I know this because I move every two or three years and have been on five.) Its not necessarily a "oh she's a female" thing. I was lucky on my first department since I literally grew up in the station. All the other departments I had to prove myself. Just avoid politics (and every department has them), be yourself, try hard, ask questions and you'll be fine.

Once they see you're serious about putting in an effort (and it helps if your friendly)they'll open up. Trust me it works.

[trumpeter75]

Dacia,

We've got a JR FF, who's female, at our station and I'l tell you the same thing we tell her. Do what you're asked, do it well, ask questions, try to improve your performance, and give it your all. I can almost guarantee you'll wind up doing it better than some or your detractors. IF they have preconceptions about women in the fire service, prove them wrong by your actions.

keep your chin up

[Lt. Wayne Burdett]

Originally posted by trumpeter75:
Dacia,

We've got a JR FF, who's female, at our station and I'l tell you the same thing we tell her. Do what you're asked, do it well, ask questions, try to improve your performance, and give it your all. I can almost guarantee you'll wind up doing it better than some or your detractors. IF they have preconceptions about women in the fire service, prove them wrong by your actions.

keep your chin up

[Lt. Wayne Burdett]

dacia,
welcome to the best job in the world. my advice to you is to just be yourself and don't try to hard to act like you've been thier for years. we had a new guy come on to our shift last year and he tried to act like he was not the new guy and really had us all wondering weather we liked him our not, but now that a yr has passed he is one of us and turned out to be a good hand. so if you do your job and do the crap details to which we have all had to do you will be fine.
We are a combination dept. and also hired our first female firefighter last yr. She was hired about the time of our new guy, she seems to be working out very well as a matter of fact we wanted her on our shift instead of who we got. The best I can say about her is I would not be afraid to go into a burning building with her.
So hang in there and good luck.
Lt. Wayne Burdett

[ntvilleff]

To HCTrouble,

Thought this might be interesting reading for you.
This string is from a year ago

The more things change...the more they stay the same

[hctrouble25]

Yep, and people still need Hooked on Phonics to help them with their reading comprehension. I understand why you sent this to me, and I am not yelling at you...just stating some facts. In my post I stated that I am a female fire fighter...and I wanted good and bad experiences that people had with females in the fire service. I did not ask for a debate on the use of the term "female fire fighter", nor did I ask for some of those replying to use sexual remarks about the only things women are good for at the firehouse. I asked a very very simple question, and in return I got a lot of heat, anger, and arguing. Yep I get it already...many people don't like the term "female fire fighter"...I don't care. I don't like being called a FireMan but that doesn't stop it. My department accepts me 100% for who I am and for the fact that I do my job....I was asking about issues other departments had and it got blown WAY out of proportion. Thanks for the info though. Take care.

[DianeC]

Just think what "small people" are able to do -- confined space and crawling in the back seat of a hatchback to keep a patient stable!

Don't give up!

[captstanm1]

Lt. Burdette sums it up very well... Take his advice.

If you are the only female or first female, you got a trail to cut...others will follow. Keep your head up...ask questions, watch, learn, listen and take as much training as possible... GOOD LUCK!

My girlfriend is one of two females on a department here. I am damned proud of her and she has been on the job almost 13 years.

[MikeF25]

Ok we have a couple of females on our dept.
On if she came after me I would have to say no thanks let me die.
The other I would go inside with no questions asked neither is that big, but one can do the job and no disrespect to the other she can't.

[NYSmokey]

Dacia,

It's going to take time to be accepted if they haven't had any female members before. Your work ethic and guts will speak volumes for you. So shut 'em up with good attendance, honesty, integrity, quick thinking, and competence in the firefighting skills. If you can do that, they'll want you with them on the line every time.

I'd also drop the label "Female firefighter." I know a few females that volunteer and I saw the ones that just call themselves firefighters get more respect. In my opinion, the "female" label sounds like your looking for special treatment. Like someone on these forums said before Blue,green,purple,black,whatev er we all bleed the same and are all firefighters.

Stay safe out there!

[Pipe&Ladderman]

It seems that women have had trouble doing everything that men have always been able to do. Voting for example, women were not allowed to vote for the longest time, and also women were expected not to work. Things changed, women hold positions in government now and run some of the most successful companies in the world. It's true firefigheters are the worst about being set in old ways, but keep up the good work ladies, the only way things will change is if you care to change them.
Jeb
P.S.-I don't know many female firefighters, but I like the idea of having a girlfriend(or a friend who is a girl) who shares one of my major interestes, serving the community through fire protection. Also I agree with most people here that "female" should not be added to descriminate between sexes.

[Pipe&Ladderman]

I feel the same way as Captstanm1 described.

[captstanm1]

One more thought....

There are lots of firefighters out there (male or female) that know alot. Be very lery of those that will tell you what they KNOW and that they KNOW ALL. They will get you hurt. Use those that will help you by "showing you what they know" as a role model.

No two calls are alike...no two firefigthers are alike, no two departments are alike.

TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.....this coupled with experience and most importantly...COMMON SENSE makes a firefighter. You will not be accepted overnight nor will you be a firefighter.

Good Luck!

(OH well....that was several thoughts..I am down off my soap box now.)

[eCappy]

I am very disappointed and angered by hctrouble25's 8/15/01 comment; quote: " ...many people don't like the term "female firefighter" ... I don't care." unquote.

The "I don't care" comment, taken out of context or not, is a self serving, vicious, and unconscionable slap to the faces of firefighters who decades ago spent countless hours, days, week, months, and years trying to change laws, statutes, and opinions that had unfairly and unjustly kept women from serving in the fire service.

The "I don't care" comment slams the last threads of what is now a very disorganized womans' movement into reverse and dishonors the memory of women who fought torments of indescribable harrassment, provication, and abysmal malfeasance just to become, to earn, and to be called FIREFIGHTER.

The "I don't care" comment disrespects firefighters from decades ago that drove all over NJ for months passing petitions to have a voter referendum to change state statutes to allow women.

The "I don't care" comment disrespects the firefighters that supported women and had to suffer consequences from the old guard because they believed women could do the job and should be allowed the opportunity to succeed or fail. Many firefighters STILL suffer consequences from their actions decades ago and will never rise in rank simply because they were vocal in supporting a woman's chance to serve.

The "I don't care" comment disrespects the time, energy, and bravery some people displayed decades ago when they filed lawsuits to get women into the fire service. It disrespects their tireless efforts, the mountains of money that needed to be raised to file lawsuits, obtain transcripts, file appeals, and to pay attorneys. It was a long hard uphill struggle to sue a town over the right to serve it for free.

hcreouble25 has repeatedly disrespected her foresisters that fought indescribable battles to earn the right to be called FIREFIGHTER with her insipid use of the word 'female' in front. How disgusting!

hctrouble25 says she doesn't like being called a 'fireman.' Her forsisters were called worse than that: whore, slut, bitch, barracuda, and so on; but were strong and survived.

That loud spinning noise you hear are hctrouble25's foresisters turning in their graves each time she uses her insipid disrespectfull term 'femalefirefighter'.

Sorry, I have to go puke .........

[Engine_tower1]

I think that women do belong in the fire service. I have three very close friends (girls) who are firefighters. I would take them inot any burning building with much. More than I can say for some of the people that I run with at my own station. Anyone who has a problem with females in the fire service is just scared that girls can do a better job than they can.

[Michelle Latham]

Maybe you are getting "the brush off" because you are new. I got it when I was new and over time I became a part of the team. Being new is a pain in the neck but it's justg part of being a firefighter.
Also, how is your additude? You have to be dreadfully honest with yourself in this area. Are you shy and meek? I am and I get the "brush off" a lot because of that. Folks don't know if they can trust me. Or are you stalking around trying to act tough and rough? Folks resent that, male or female.
Firefighting is a close-knit-family career and our irritating behaviors can really get on each other's nerves since we eat, sleep, and play together. You should take a real good look at You and how You are acting before you decide that everyone is brushing you off because you are a girl. And in the end if they ARE treating you bad because of your gender, then throw yourself into your training and be the best you can be. Don't aim to be "The Best" because that just sets you up for severe frustration when you "fail". Just do your best and be your best and above all, don't push yourself to the point that you don't love your job.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Take those words to heart and remember them whenever someone starts to cut you down.

[captstanm1]

You go Trey...thats my boy! ;)

[hctrouble25]

All I have to say to ecappy is this:

I only use the term "female fire fighter" on this forum to describe that I am female....you cannot see me through the computer and therefore would not know I was female. In my world I always say "I am a fire fighter". I may choose to use the term "female fire fighter" and NO I DON'T CARE that you as a man are offended by it. I am offended when someone calls me a "fireMAN", cause I am NOT male. Why you continue to blow this out of proportion I don't know. No offense, but like I have said a hundred times to you...I am female...I am a fire fighter..therefore a female fire fighter...what is so wrong with that? Nothing. :rolleyes:

[eCappy]

hctrouble25:

My experiences in the fire service will compell me to go to my grave with the firm belief that there should be NO tolerance in any firehouse or in any fireforum for terms (like femalefirefighter) that divide firefighters, or suggest that one is any better than the other; and I will also never waiver from seeing that those that have proceeded me in the fire service will always receive the respect and honor they earned.

I know that you don't care. As I said before, some firefighters go through life with their eyes wide shut. When you finally open yours you will see how wrong you have been to disrespect your foresisters who, by the way, made your firefighting possible.

eCappy

[hctrouble25]

eCappy we are NEVER EVER going to agree on this subject..that is just reality. While I accept and respect your opinion, I don't agree with it. Can we just leave it at that and move on already? Please.

[NozzleHog]

Originally posted by dacia:
<STRONG> Well I recently turned in my paper work to volunteer at the station, but I have a slight complaint. Is it because I am a young female that I get the near brush off? I am only 5'5 and I don't look like some rugged chick, plus I am FEMALE so does that mean I just dont look like fire fighter material? I run 3 miles a day. I lift 3 days a week with the FOOTBALL team. I grew up with neighbor boys. It takes a lot for a girl to stick her foot in guys domain, but I would really like a little more respect. Just because I dont look tough doesnt mean that I am not. I get the feeling a girl has to look burly to get anywhere.</STRONG>

Just an observation, but has anyone considered that "Dacia", who originally made this post over a year ago and hasn't been heard from since, may have moved on to another pastime?

[eCappy]

hctrouble25:

Okay, sure ..... like the old school Digital Underground hip hop song says; "Do what you like ... "

BUT ....

..... if you find "fireMAN" offensive why did you submit to the New Jersey State FireMEN's Association physical?

If you find fireMAN offensive what are your feelings about your New Jersey State FireMEN's Association line number?

If you find fireMAN offensive what are your feelings about the benefits you can now receive, or will be able to receive, from the New Jersey State FireMEN's Association?

If you find fireMAN offensive why did you in your "Women In The Firehouse" thread very clearly state that you have plans to be a delegate to the New Jersey State FireMEN's Association.

If you find fireMAN so offensive why did you in another thread say that you would never miss the New Jersey State FireMEN's Association convention in Wildwood.

FireMAN doesn't bother you ..... you're just one of the few 17,500 plus registered members of this forum that needs to make herself feel special by sticking 'female' (or some other nonsense word) in front of firefighter.

Shout me a holla .....

eCappy
eightytwo@aol.com

[captstanm1]

hc...dont humor him with a response

[truckie_ladderco_147]

Dont worry Captstan I will.
Ecappy shut up you silly twit.Semantics semantics semantics is all I have to say.Do you know any of the foresisters you speak of?How about the first female Lt. in the state of Iowa?Give me the name of her and the dept and I might give you a little of what Aretha wants!Till then pi$$ off and leave the firefighter that is a lady alone!
Thus endeth my sermon.

[nichmar]

Dacia: As many of the replies you have recieved so far have suggested to you it will take time for you to earn the trust of your member fire fighters, and for them to put their faith in you. Every new member needs to understand that firefighting is often a combat situation where lives are at stake and not just the lives of the public but more importantly the lives of your fellow firefighters as well. And that you must earn the respect of your team members and to earn a spot on the team.
MY Dept. has several women in it and I am pleased to have many of them on the truck or in a fire with me. But just as every one else in the Dept. they have had to earn this trust. you don't just trust your life with everyone who thinks they want to be a firefighter. Try to remember that respect isn't given it's earned! so hang in there listen and learn. and most important of all keep it safe.

[eCappy]

trouble,

Oh come on, go ahead, humor me - because I'd really like to know how you, a woman, can be so willing to become a delegate to, or are even willing to attend a convention that; #1.) has historically been against women, and #2.) is still, STILL age discriminate.

With over 3 decades of service in this state I will never, NEVER, N-E-V-E-R become associated with the New Jersey Firemen's Association because of those two above reasons.

I have principals.

eCap

[eCappy]

Yo truckie .... do I know any of hctrouble25's foresisters?

Hell yeah!

Back in '68 I drove all over New Jersey in my '54 Chevy with some awesome ladies passing petitions trying to get the laws changed so women could serve, and to get a referendum on the ballot to let the voters speak. How can I forget the fundraisers, the days I had to loose from work to go to court, or those months on the road in '70 - and again years later, and again years later!

I was there in the thick of the battle - all of them .....

Sorry, I don't know anything about Iowa, and
I only talk about things I know about.

[Tanker06]

Dacia,
Go for it and welcome to the family! Jump on in, train hard and show them that you are serious. They'll probably come around. Alot of the guys, myself included, are the type that if you can show that you're serious and are interested in doing your best, welcome!
Occasionally, as I've also seen, there are people who come along, join up, don't want to do their share, and get all bent out of shape when they are kicked out or disciplined. Guys or gals. There have been some guys come in who looked like linebackers, but couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag. On the flip-side, we have a gal who (I swear) might weigh 120 soaking wet in full gear with a load of rocks in her pockets, and if she gets the nozzle, get ready! `Cause you're going places! :D
But seriously, give it your best shot, and expect to catch some heat being the new person, and to get the jobs nobody else wants, because you're new. (Scrub the bathrooms, mop the kitchen, etc.) (We all have at one point, and if you get on a good crew, you'll find that eventually, everybody helps out, and you won't get stuck with all of the dirty jobs.
Good luck and welcome to the Fraternity!
:)

[hctrouble25]

Since everyone like the words fire fighter it should be the NJ FIRE FIGHTER'S ASSOCIATION....etc.

I like the convention...and the age thing is something that we all have to fight for. Is it wrong? Hell yes...but if no one fights to get it changed it won't. I think the convention is fun, I get to meet lots of other fire fighters from around the state, learn about new technology, check out apparatus, etc. No Association is ever going to please everyone all the time. That is just life.

[firemangeorge]

As a career FF, I have found there to be only two types of firefighters:
Good and Bad.
Every probie goes through a period of great discomfort, trying to fit in with the guys(gals) who've been there. My advice is to keep your mouth shut, your eyes open and let your actions speak for you. Don't wait to be asked to do anything around the fire house, volunteer for everything. When someone pulls a prank on you, laugh the loudest. On the fireground, stick to your officer like stink on a turd, and do what you're told. Never, ever draw attention to the fact that you have different equipment!
If you ever cross the line and become anything other than one of the boys, it is over. All the respect you have worked to earn will be down the drain. And that goes for all firefighters. Straight, gay or bi, sex with another firefighter is absolutely taboo, worse than messing with someones PPE.
If you get one label in your career, "good firefighter" is the one you want. :cool:

[redmedusa41]

You are just going to have to earn there respect. They are not just going to hand it to you. FD is like no other place on earth.
There are good ff and bad FF. Train, train train. They don't know you and you don't know them. Know your limitations. If you feel uncomfortable with something, say so. And don't EVER date someone within your own dept. I love my dept. I have learned something from each and every one of them, in the last 4 years. They all have been great teachers. And in years to come, I will be able to pass the knowledge on to the new rookies that will pass through our doors. I am a FF, plan and simple. Hang in there and be safe. rm41

ps... You can't scare me , I'm a Mother!!!

[jdevisser]

Too much is made of gender and not enough on getting the job done. We all know of firefighters who should have other employment, both male and female. Unfortunately, the female will be held to a higher standard til she proves herself. Not that it's right, but any mistakes you make will be highlighted it sounds like. Keep your head up and in the game. Here's hoping your first in!!!!

[captstanm1]

jdevisser.....

You could not have said it any more perfect. I can only add that one female who fails makes it tougher for others.

Example: I know of a department that used a version of the Firefighter Combat Challenge for a test to get off probation. Pass it at the academy before getting a job and then before you get off probation. (NOW before I start a war of the test and if it is right or wrong.... let me say that I see points on both sides for using it....and I am neither for it or opposed to it....OK??) Anyway...in this department there was a personnel shortage and they could not afford to lose another firefighter. So when it was discovered that a female could not pass it...it no longer became a requirement.

This is wrong and give the female firefighters who can and do kick butt...a harder road to travel.

MY OPINION

[Firebear230]

I've found that most guys start out wary of new female members. We are walking on territory that has been traditionally male since its inception. When I started five years ago, most guys seemed to expect us to be girly fire fighter groupies. I proved that I was trustworthy and willing to do whatever was needed, be it scrubbing toilets or getting dirty in the trucks. The most vital thing is knowing why you are there. I know I care about being there for my partners and the public. It will all fall in place for you if your really care about the job.
Stay safe ;)

[captstanm1]

firebear235...that sums it up...you are right on target...give em he**...

[mongofire_99]

Interesting tid-bit from the JEMS website, female firefighters are injured more often...
http://www.jems.com/firerescue/news8d.html

[rcbadabing182]

Dacia,
let me tell you..i have been a member of the fire service for a little over 5 years now..some guys scare me on if they can do it or not..so if you know you can do it..then do whatever you have to do to get there...come join me on the line when you get here.

[Flamedawg]

I am sure we are in agreement that it comes down to being able to do the job. I have worked long enough to have the unfortunate pleasure to work with both male and female FFs that could not do the job. On the flip side, I have had the pleasure of working along side both male and female FFs that could do the job.

A perception (either real or not) is that females are held to a lower standard than their male counterparts when hired. That does help perpetuate the myth that women can not do the job.

As long as the person wearing the turnouts next to me can get me out if I am in trouble it should not matter if it is a man or woman.

[BucksEng91]

FireDawg -

We agree in principle. The problem is that the "myth" that women cannot do the job is not entirely myth. While I would hesitate to make a blanket statement about an entire gender (and I have met women that could do the job adequately), it cannot be denied that women, taken generally, have less upper body strength than men, taken generally.

Due to some ill advised court decisions, and a lack of b*lls on the part of some fire departments' leadership, physical entrance standards have been lowered in many areas for the specific purpose of allowing more females into the ranks in order to fulfill someone's idea of a politically correct mix of genders (and absolutely nothing to do with the safety of the public at large). The upshot is that both men and women who are truly not able to do all the physical things required of a firefighter today, make it in.

No matter how you spin it, no matter how "good" it makes some people "feel", this is a patently negative thing. It might even be immoral, when you consider the implications for the public that we are charged to protect (not to mention the lives of fellow firefighters).

So, I'd sum it up like this: if you can pass some legitimately rigorous physical standards (realistically based on the physical requirements of the job), make it through the academy with scores and performance above a certain legitimate, reasonable level, *and* if you can do all the things necessary on the fireground to be a full member of your engine or truck company team, then by all means...you're a firefighter - male, female, whatever. If not, then you really need to look for another job, and stop risking other people's lives to satisfy your own selfish and unrealistic desires.

[hctrouble25]

Mongo here is the article you had us read - Female firefighters are more likely than their male counterparts to be injured on the job, according to a study in the July 2001 issue of the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology.

"Correlates of Work Injury Frequency and Duration Among Firefighters" examined 171 firefighters from a large Midwestern city over a period of 12 years (1987 to 1998). Injuries were rated and categorized based on workers' compensation claims records.

Although tenure, age and race were not related to injury frequency, the study found that female firefighters reported 33 percent more injuries than male firefighters.

The study, which also used a standard personality test to measure various aspects of the firefighters' personalities, found that introverted firefighters are also more likely to report an injury.

The study suggests that the finding scan be used to help lessen the injuries. For example, departments whose firefighters are most likely to be injured could implement more safety training.

#1 - it states that women are injured more often mainly because they report more often...duh...that is no big shock. I am much more likely to tell my Chief I hurt myself than most of the guys on my department....that is the whole macho thing at work. And it also has to do with the fact that women have a lesser upper body strength and are more likely to injure their upper bodies while moving, lifting, etc.

#2 - it states that some of these departments needed more safety training...so how can that be blamed on the women fire fighters? I think everyone is to blame for this.

3# - get over yourself. Women report more injuries in the workplace in almost every occupation. Who cares? It does not mean we ARE injured more often...just that we REPORT it more often. And again there are a hell of a lot less of us out there to get injured so when a girl gets injured it stands out.

What was your point here anyway?

[mongofire_99]

#1 - it states that women are injured more often mainly because they report more often...duh...that is no big shock. I am much more likely to tell my Chief I hurt myself than most of the guys on my department....that is the whole macho thing at work.

So, figuring that men don't report as much as women, what would you say the pecentage is?

And what makes you so sure it's the whole macho thing?

And it also has to do with the fact that women have a lesser upper body strength and are more likely to injure their upper bodies while moving, lifting, etc.

How do you figure that?

#2 - it states that some of these departments needed more safety training...so how can that be blamed on the women fire fighters? I think everyone is to blame for this.

Don't they get the same safety training as the men or do you get a special class?

3# - get over yourself.

Myself?

Women report more injuries in the workplace in almost every occupation.

Really?

How do you know? Or did you guess?

It does not mean we ARE injured more often...just that we REPORT it more often.

So, considering that, are you injured at eth same rate or waht?

What was your point here anyway?

Just what I said, it was an intersting tid-bit.

Wasn't it?

[diabolical]

After ego, what was the second most often reported injury?

[mongofire_99]

The second most common injury I think would probably the first.

"Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, girl;
you'll never come again.

Feeeeeelings, wo-o-o feeeeeelings,
wo-o-o, feel you again in my arms."
(Morris Albert)

OK, I'll stop singing now.

But I think the real most reported injury is a broken nail - errrr, I mean back strain.

I'd love to see a report on a bruised ego :D

Type of Injury - Ego

Suspected Cause - Mongo called me a DA because I did something dumb that almost got me, him and the whole crew killed.

Treatment - Big hug, sloppy wet kiss on the cheek, you're not a DA, you just do DS pep-talk from the chief. Advised employee not to do DS that will get him/her or his/her buddys killed.

Results - Employee reports significant decrease in pain, significant increase in happy feelings and really likes the new grape lolly-pops. Says he/she will go show Mongo the lolly-pop and sing Na Na Na Na Na - I got a sucker and youuuu don't.

Additional Comments - Mongo told to not take it as a premeditated attempt against his life when coworkers try to kill him and the rest of his company (which, I am happy to report, is back on the quint!)

[SilverCity4]

...*sighs heavily*...

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Silver City 4 ]

[mongofire_99]

Silver City 4

Don't get all mushy now, I wasn't serenading you or anyone else...

[Eng522ine]

After posting on these forums for a while now, and reading them for a while longer, I have begun to wonder why Firehouse.Com is not inundated by ads for Prozac, Xanax, Zoloft, lithium, and practicing psychotherapists. Judging by the average poster, myself included, we might do better with those ads than the ones for new apparatus. Although, we might lose the humor factor.

[Break-N-Entry]

Surveys ... figures lie and liars figure.

Thanks Mongo and hctrouble25. The article you provided was very interesting.

Well, just to 75 percent of me.

20 percent of me didn't find it interesting, and 5 percent of me didn't care.

[wrongWAY]

Our municipal insurance company sends someone to investigate all reported injuries. They don't wait for us to call or for bills to show up, they come right away because they access the 5.0 NFIRS that we electronically file with the State.

I went into our NFIRS files and checked the injury report modules, and I also read all the insurance company findings. I couldn't find any reports citing a lack of upper body strength for injuries sustained by and reported by females.

What I did find was that the #1 cause for injuries sustained by females was "improper lifting techniques." Those firefighters were sent to an Occupational Safety Center to learn proper lifting. The #2 cause for injuries sustained by females was "spatial disorientation" from smoke, heat and noise. Those firefighters were sent to smoke house training. The #3 cause for injuries sustained by females was trips and falls.

I also checked the NFIRS and insurance findings on male injuries and the #1 cause was "improperly worn attire." The #2 cause was "improper use of tool or appliance" and #3 was "fatigue." Each firefighter received training in their specific problem area.

More males reported injuries. Their injuries were more severe in nature, such as burns and cuts.

Remember: None of this is very scientific because it only represents my department.

One thing I found didn't surprise me one bit. In my department the same persons get hurt over and over again. Five "improper use of tool or appliance" reports out of six involved the same firefighter.

[hctrouble25]

wrongWAY - THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for putting out that honest information. It is exactly what I was saying. I know because I am female and had to learn proper lifting techniques from scratch because my upper body strength is very different from the males on my department. Mongo just gets me going every time and no matter how hard I try not to let it happen it still does. I respect him but some days I just want to strangle him..so thank you for taking the time to investigate your department and send some info to the rest of us. Take care.

[Mr.Meaner]

Thanks mongo and hc, but I distrust ALL articles that include or refer to any injury surveys and reports.

Injury reports can very often be used, misused is really a better word, to substantiate whatever 'facts' the survey maker is attempting to prove or disprove.

Examples:

1). In 1994 I was struck by an auto at a fire scene. My fire injury reports, the local police report, the fire incident report, the county crime scene report, and etc and etc ALL very clearly stated that the car that struck me was operated in broad daylight by a 91 year old man out to buy lottery tickets who stated that he did not see the engine, the engine's warning lights, the police cars, the fully involved burning car, or feel the hoses he drove over.

Now get this: One survey blamed my turnout gear for being dirty and loosing it's reflectiveness! Another survey faulted my department SOPs, and another cited my lack of training at highway incidents. I had 26 years of service in at that time!

2). Last year fire escape stairs, that were held together by paint and rust, collapsed beneath me, and I fell.

One survey used that injury report to support their findings that firefighters should be equiped with bailout devices, and another used it to support a need for improved accountability systems.

I'll admit that even some very cut and dry injury and accident reports can be left to interpertation - but when they're misused it forces us to doubt the validity of ALL surveys.

My experiences cause me to disbelieve anything found in the surveys mentioned in that article.

[MFD]

we got atleast 2 lady firefighters on our fire dept. Don't quit cause just one won't take ya on. they might kid ya at first but i got the got the feelings like if they can hang with the guys (far as keep up at fire scenes) let em on. to be honest I'm a big guy 6 ft 6 300 lb dude and the chief's wife she's on our fire dept i wouldn't wanna get in a bar fight with her. she's not like a body builder chick but she's strong. She'll even cuss like a guy :D . that's another thing don't take guy's crap of firefighting is only a man's duty cause if ya do they'll bully ya.

[firedog11ku]

Gender, size, etc. don't mean a dang thing. One of teh first dept. that I tested on I saw a 5'2" female that was fairly small just rock. At the same test, I saw three 6' males who looked to be in good shape fail. Just remember that fire knows no gender.